Unsure why elements are out of wack. :/

[lolgranny]

So here is where im at.

Tanks been up since August 10th

40g DT--Bare Bottom, 20g sump. NAC-6 skimmer, fuge lit with 75w 10k bulb, 20lbs of sand(4"deep) with cheato.

250w halide/2-65w PC's
Have about 4000gph going thorough the DT

~40lbs of live rock
~10snails
~20blue legged hermits
3chromis
ebli angel
4acros(which are doing good, cept they are browned out due to over skimming / limited feeding)

Have some algae problems, but its been receding a LOT this past week. I feed typically once a day since ive noticed the angel start nipping at my milli
I did have some snails die off 2 weeks ago(about 10 of them) i think due to them not having enough algae(the kind they want / like)

Im testing using API and Salfert so these are pretty accurate.

Alk- 14-15?!?!?!!
Calcium 380-400
Mag 1000-1100
Salinity 1.024-1.025
Nitrates-0
Phos-0
PH is staying stable(running DT lights / fuge lights on separate timers)

Im doing water changes with reef crystals every week using RO/DI water. About 4g on a 50g system. I dont dose ANYTHING and im unable to figure out why i cant align my 3. I just picked up B-Ionic, and im going to try and boost the Calcium to about 420-440. Im going to do a few water changes, but before i do i was planning on testing the freshly made saltwater to see if the reef crystals are causing the alk to be where it is.

Does anyone have any ideas? suggestions? anything?

Thanks,
David

[M88A2]

your mag is really low, gonna be hard to maintain the other params with it being off. i suggest you get your mag up to about 1350 and then mess around with the cal/alk. i dose all 3 in different amounts daily. but missing a day seems to not affect anyhting.

[lolgranny]

Ive been told that mag will stay in check once calc / alk are aligned. Ive started dosing some Mag using Kent tech M, but its not moving much.

:/

[jc-reef]

You need to get you Mg up in order to keep your Ca/Alk stable. Calcium will percipate out with low Mg. You will probably need to dose quite a bit of Mg to get up to 1300-1400.

Here is an online calulator that can help you figure out how much to dose. You simply plug in the numbers and it will give you the dose amount. Get the Mg up FIRST, then you can work on your Ca & Alk. Now, you don't want to dose more than say 100ppm a day...safer to keep it at 50ppm or so max a day so you dont shock your system.

http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chem_calc3.html

Good luck!

[lolgranny]

Update
Mag=1250
Cal=300
Alk=15?!?!?!?!?!!?

Im so lost with the alk, im testing using Api / Salifert test kits.

Im dosing Mag / Calcium every day now to try and get them where they need to be.

[smtank]

Yes you need the mag to stabilize the alk. Like others posted, bump up the mag and work from there.

[tmgrash]

Have you tested your alk in your new water before doing a WC, probably is mixing high. You cal is certainly fine at 380-400, I wouldnt worry about that. From what I understand you can only have so much alk and cal together before saturation, raising mag will raise the saturation level. So, since your alk is 15dKh you probably wont be able to get your cal much higher even if you wanted to with your mag at that level.

What cal supplement are you using? Sometimes they come as a two part but only adverstise the cal, such as tropic marin bio calcium.

[Masterofnonsense]

Raising your magnesium can take a lot of additive. You may want to look into BRS diy additives as they will be a lot cheaper in the long run.

[wickedfish]

The salifert alk test reads high, get another alk test, API or elos to cross check it with. There is a thread on the salifert alk tests being on the high side.

And agreed get your mag up. Via just magnesium, no additives or extras like some brands do.
Try Bulk reef supply 3 part. And if you can get your self a dosing setup it will help keep your balance.

But you must know what your systems thirst for alk, mag, and calcium is first on a daily basis. "which means testing daily for alk, mag and cal." Its a pita but worth it once you have it all dialed in.

Good luck.

[jc-reef]

Raising your magnesium can take a lot of additive. You may want to look into BRS diy additives as they will be a lot cheaper in the long run.


+1 on getting a bulk supply and DIY.

Keep working on your Mg...(1300-1400) then start on your Cal/Alk. I would also check your Alk results with a different tester...LFS perhaps....it sounds unusually high and you could be getting a false reading with your tester.

[lolgranny]

Im using both API / Salifert kits for alk and they are coming very close to each other. Ill check it again tomorrow and give us a update.

[gh0st]

Maybe I missed it, but....

What is your PH? I'm guessing probably pretty low.
Alk is a bit high, I try and maintain mine around 4 meqs/l or about 11.2 KH as tested on the API Kit.
Calcium is Really Low if it's 300, probably caused by high ALK and low PH, Try and maintain between 400-420.
Mag is also a little low. Around 1300-1400 is preffered.

Try raising the Magnesium and also to a lesser extent the Calcium. Some Light PH buffer if needed may also help to stabilize your chemistry.

[lolgranny]

Tested again

Mag-1250
Calcium-320
Alk-15 on api // 16 on Salifert (maybe higher? when im dripping the KH solution in im using the entire syringe)

Im not dosing anything at the moment, just Kent tech M. Still doing water changes once every week- every week and a half.

[lolgranny]

Ph isnt swinging. Its sitting at about 8.2

[Allmost]

Tested again

Mag-1250
Calcium-320
Alk-15 on api // 16 on Salifert (maybe higher? when im dripping the KH solution in im using the entire syringe)

Im not dosing anything at the moment, just Kent tech M. Still doing water changes once every week- every week and a half.

your alk is too high and calcium too low.

you want ca++ and MG ratio of 3.1 to 1.

a good help here : http://reef.diesyst.com/flashcalc/flashcalc.html

[chumcrazy]

When I used reef crystals my cal. was always high like 450-480 and my alk was always really low. I switched to IO and have a higer alk and add one cap full of cal. to the water change water (10gal/week) and all params have been stable. Sounds to me like your seeing the opposite. Maybe try adding some cal. to you water change water.

[lolgranny]

your alk is too high and calcium too low.

you want ca++ and MG ratio of 3.1 to 1.

a good help here : http://reef.diesyst.com/flashcalc/flashcalc.html

Yes i understand my Alk is WAAYYYYY too high, thats the reason for this post. I have no clue at why it is where it is and why im unable to get them correct.

[reefpeeper]

just add calcium and some mag. add max amount of calcium per day until level is right. if mag is not right cal and alk will be hard to control



Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk

[lolgranny]

Im going to make another batch of water and test that tomorrow. See how it turns out, part of me thinks i got a bad batch of reef crystals. I had issues with it when i started up this talk, had a huge calcium percipitation which was all over the pumps / skimmer / sump / and DT glass. I called them and they said it was because i only had 20lbs of LR and no sand and i added the salt too quickly?!!? This is my 3rd tank and ive never had issues like this. bah

[lolgranny]

just add calcium and some mag. add max amount of calcium per day until level is right. if mag is not right cal and alk will be hard to control



Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk

Ya, ive been adding the suggested amounts of Mag each day to try and get it up some more so then i can mess with my calcium and hopefully that will fix the redic Alk issue im having.

[jc-reef]

Updates?

[LifeAquatic]

First I would suggest using a second DKH test but you mentioned using API and Salifert. You should test your new water for DKH before adding to display. You might have picked up a batch of salt with Higher DKH then normal. You say nothing is being doesd into the tank. The only way for the DKH to rise is from water changes. It must be the bag of salt you are using. Like the others posted low MAG will make CAL and ALK unstable.

[reefried]

salifert kits say right on them that over 11 dkh they have a 0.5 +/- but i would still bet your alk is high

[iamwrasseman]

get the mag up some more and keep it 3x your calcium and leave the rest alone for a week or two and see what happens .
how do your corals look ? if they are okay ,let her ride but that alk is high and i suspect your test kit . have it checked against another kit as its much cheaper to buy a test kit rather than keep dosing mag if the alk is testing wrong .
also dont do a water change for a couple of weeks and see what you params do .

[lolgranny]

Updates?

Update#1(Saturday)

Mag=1250
Calcium=300
Alk=15

Update#2(Today / Tues)

Mag=1350
Calcium=320
Alk=15-16(api)

Ill be doing a water change tomorrow and will test the new water again.
Only adding Mag / B-Ionic part 2(Calcuim side)

[lolgranny]

First I would suggest using a second DKH test but you mentioned using API and Salifert. You should test your new water for DKH before adding to display. You might have picked up a batch of salt with Higher DKH then normal. You say nothing is being doesd into the tank. The only way for the DKH to rise is from water changes. It must be the bag of salt you are using. Like the others posted low MAG will make CAL and ALK unstable.

Ya, i think i got a bad bucket of salt to be honest. Good ol Reef crystals. Ill let you know tomorrow how it turns out.

[lolgranny]

get the mag up some more and keep it 3x your calcium and leave the rest alone for a week or two and see what happens .
how do your corals look ? if they are okay ,let her ride but that alk is high and i suspect your test kit . have it checked against another kit as its much cheaper to buy a test kit rather than keep dosing mag if the alk is testing wrong .
also dont do a water change for a couple of weeks and see what you params do .

The corals dont look bad, shitty coloring but i know thats because im taking so much nutrients out of the water and feeding very little. Want to get rid of the last bit of algae i have.

Im going to let it ride for a month after this next change i think(as long as once i check the water its fine) Otherwise i wont do it and leave it till after Xmas.

[lolgranny]

Update-

Water Test
Calcium= 360
Alk = 15-16 still....
Mag= 1250

I didnt do a water change all month to see if things would stable out, i was still dosing Mag / Calcium, but not much has changed.

Testing new water in a few min and will let you know results of that.

[lolgranny]

NEW water test

Calcium= ~540... tested 2x's as well
Alk= 31.... What in the world!!! I did it 2x's and it came out the same
Mag= 2100

So what im thinking here is i got one extremely ****ed up batch of Reef Crystals.

What do you guys think? How is this possible? :(

Thanks again fellas, hope everyone had a good Christmas!
-David

[Logzor]

NEW water test

Calcium= ~540... tested 2x's as well
Alk= 31.... What in the world!!! I did it 2x's and it came out the same
Mag= 2100

So what im thinking here is i got one extremely ****ed up batch of Reef Crystals.

What do you guys think? How is this possible? :(

Thanks again fellas, hope everyone had a good Christmas!
-David

What I'm thinkin here is that you have a seriously messed up batch of test kits! My first reaction is that you used your test kits improperly but you are using several kits so I figure that is highly unlikely. I figured this because it was very likely, with your original magnesium level, that your dkh was 7 or 8 (rather than double that, which is what you measured). The same goes with your measurement of the RC salt of a dkh of 31. I could definitely see a fresh batch hitting 15 dkh. This leads me to believe that you are somehow doubling your test results. This mistake was commonly made with a set of ELOS Dkh kits which had incorrect directions included with the kit.

Take a water sample to your LFS and see what their results are. They can definitely confirm if its your salt or your test kits.

It may also help to mix up your salt, it is possible that it is not mixed well. This could definitely play a part in your extreme measurements.

[lolgranny]

What I'm thinkin here is that you have a seriously messed up batch of test kits! My first reaction is that you used your test kits improperly but you are using several kits so I figure that is highly unlikely. I figured this because it was very likely, with your original magnesium level, that your dkh was 7 or 8 (rather than double that, which is what you measured). The same goes with your measurement of the RC salt of a dkh of 31. I could definitely see a fresh batch hitting 15 dkh. This leads me to believe that you are somehow doubling your test results. This mistake was commonly made with a set of ELOS Dkh kits which had incorrect directions included with the kit.

Take a water sample to your LFS and see what their results are. They can definitely confirm if its your salt or your test kits.

It may also help to mix up your salt, it is possible that it is not mixed well. This could definitely play a part in your extreme measurements.

The new water is being sat in a 5g bucket with a powerhead mixing it for over a hour so im sure that its being mixed enough. I have a couple tanks and test them all with this and this is the only one that is wacky. Ill take it to the store tomorrow and see what they come up with, but im assuming the kit is fine :/

I stopped in the store today and grabbed a new bag of salt. Im going to test again tomorrow, just did a 20g water change so we shall see if anything is going to change.

oooooo the joys of saltwater... ha

Thanks again

[lolgranny]

I shot over a email to IO to see what they had to say about the salt because that doesnt seem right to me, but never the less corals are lookin sexy at the moment. Lets hope the new salt does good things for the tank. kerplow

[jdieck]

Those levels are not possible. Ath those levels the calcium and alkalinity will precipitate and drop down so most probably the testing is skewed somehow.
Two posibilies: Either the test kits anre really off or the water sample you are taking has calcium carbonate particles in them. When you add the tritration acid solution, those particles dissolve back into alkalinity and calcium thus giving you a high reading on both.
You can stop the mixing pump and let the particles in the water settle then sample the water again.

Once you insure your testing is OK (Store testing) if you confirm your alkalinity is in deed high there is only three potential sources:
a) The salt mix, which you can verify by taking a sample to your local fish store for testing.

b) High salinity in your freshly mixed water: If your salinity measurement is off and is higher than it shouold be, the other parameters will also be high.

c) upplementation: As you mention, if you are not supplementing any alkalinity or PH supplements then this ca;t be the reason.

d) Source of fresh water. If you are using RO/DI and your membrane is damaged or bypassed by a leak, you may see high alkalinity in the mixed water fed by the normal alkalinity carried by the water. Test the purity of your RO/DI to confirm you are OK here.


NEW water test

Calcium= ~540... tested 2x's as well
Alk= 31.... What in the world!!! I did it 2x's and it came out the same
Mag= 2100

So what im thinking here is i got one extremely ****ed up batch of Reef Crystals.

What do you guys think? How is this possible? :(

Thanks again fellas, hope everyone had a good Christmas!
-David

[Logzor]

The new water is being sat in a 5g bucket with a powerhead mixing it for over a hour so im sure that its being mixed enough. I have a couple tanks and test them all with this and this is the only one that is wacky. Ill take it to the store tomorrow and see what they come up with, but im assuming the kit is fine :/

I stopped in the store today and grabbed a new bag of salt. Im going to test again tomorrow, just did a 20g water change so we shall see if anything is going to change.

oooooo the joys of saltwater... ha

Thanks again

Sorry I should have been more specific. I meant mixing the actual salt in the bucket, not the mixed salt water. There have been stories of salt buckets with high concentrations of certain chemicals because it was not mixed well during the packaging process.

[ReefSafari]

Sorry I can't help you with this, but I am experiencing the same thing, I had been using Instant Ocean (Regular) for the past year, I recently transitioned to Reef Crystals and have experienced the same thing you are going through, I am now going RIGHT back to Instant Ocean.

After reading many forums, it seems they did have a problem, but I don't think they "Recalled" the salt, so I have a good feeling the $60+ bucket of salt I bought is no good, and it seems like a pain to try and take it back and "prove" that the salt is no good.

I have NEVER had a problem with using plain ol Instant Ocean and dosing, I had great results, but with Reef Crystals, I have not been happy with it, I was excited to use it too, but I have come to the conclusion I like my salt to be just salt, no added extras, I'll take care of adding the extras, it gets too risky to play with the unknown, If I use Instant Ocean, and then dose to what levels I like, its much better than having a salt that already has "extras" that you really can't measure, untill its mixed up and your ready to put it in the tank....

I will be sticking with Instant Ocean and dosing from now on.....Sorry to hear your having the same problem, and I too agree its the Instant Ocean Salt, there is NOTHING else I changed in my tank but the type of salt, and after reading other threads of Reef Crystals having issues a while back, I am also sure my bucket of salt is no good....

[lolgranny]

Ok, update time

Took the water to the 2 local shops and they both came up with the same results as i did EXCEPT the fact my salinity is at 1.028 rather then 1.026. I got a new refractometer and lowered the level in the tank by a bit. I didnt want to do it quick because of the corals / fish.

As for the bucket of salt i have im bringing it back to the store and they are going to send it back to IO.

Hopefully in these next weeks we can have everything where it needs to be.

-David

[alonglongtime]

I will chime in as well. Mg needs to be higher. GEE! I bet you have figured that out by now. LOL. Don't sweat it. Mg takes its sweet a@@ time getting up there and it is better to bring it up slowly than all at once. I have had the same problems a couple of times over the years. PATIENCE is not something I am great at but if you take the time the problems will correct. As stated in other posts, Ca and Kh are dependent on Mg levels. Hang in and don't give up. Check your top off water and your mix for proper levels before adding them to your tank. That is always a good idea. A lesson learned the hard way many, many years ago by this old fart. Best to you.

[lolgranny]

I will chime in as well. Mg needs to be higher. GEE! I bet you have figured that out by now. LOL. Don't sweat it. Mg takes its sweet a@@ time getting up there and it is better to bring it up slowly than all at once. I have had the same problems a couple of times over the years. PATIENCE is not something I am great at but if you take the time the problems will correct. As stated in other posts, Ca and Kh are dependent on Mg levels. Hang in and don't give up. Check your top off water and your mix for proper levels before adding them to your tank. That is always a good idea. A lesson learned the hard way many, many years ago by this old fart. Best to you.

For sure buddy, im still trying to get Mg levels up to about 1350.

Im out of it right now so Thurs ill be picking another on up. Does everyone still think Kent Tech M is the best bet?

[CleveYank]

The Mg posters have it. Without it stable you are going to have bouncing Alk values and SPS corals do not like this at all.


And if you are out of Mg, you can use regular Epsom salt from Walgreen's or CVS in a pinch.

Order some BRS Mg Chloride and when that comes in use their recipe for mixing Mg SO4 and Mg Cl to make things right.

[lolgranny]

Update!

Mg - 1300 (test 2x's with ELOS)

Alk- 15-16 (test once with Api / once with Salifert) The Salifert is off the chart (16dKH+) Why is it in the instructions it says nothing about a "Alkalinity Check Solution" I have 3 bottles and it only uses 2?!?!

Ca- 340 (test 2x's with Api)

Specific Gravity- 1.025 (refractometer)


I spoke with IO and they said its possible i got a bad batch of salt, i bought a new bag for my last water change. Im sending them out a few cups of the salt to see what they come up with when they test it themselves. I will let you know the verdict. For now im going to raise the Mg a little more and still does my B-Ionic Ca supplement.

Should i do a 5g water change each week and try to lower the Alk that way or should i leave it for a month. I just did a 15g water change on it because i left it for a month and wanted to see if the new salt i got would help lower the Alk.

Thanks again guys
-David

[lolgranny]

Update:

Mg- 1300 still

Ca- 340 still

Alk- 15-16 still

Still only dosing B-Ionic Ca supplement and Oceans Blend Mg

[creefer01]

First I would suggest using a second DKH test but you mentioned using API and Salifert. You should test your new water for DKH before adding to display. You might have picked up a batch of salt with Higher DKH then normal. You say nothing is being doesd into the tank. The only way for the DKH to rise is from water changes. It must be the bag of salt you are using. Like the others posted low MAG will make CAL and ALK unstable.

+1 on this. I have heard of others with super high alk out of the box with RC. Seems inconsistent but noteworthy.

Agree with all other posts btw.

Good luck.

[lolgranny]

Just tested the water again today

Mg= ~1400(Tested 4x's because i got a different # off the bat. 1350 first, 1400 second, 1450 third, and 1350 last... tested with ELOS)
Ca= 360-380(Api tested 2x's)
Alk= 15 still(Api tested 2x's)
Salinity= 1.025(Refractometer)

Ill be doing a 10-15g water change on Wed so i will test the new salt then and give us a update. For now im done dosing Mg and will just dose Ca.

Sound good?

David

[iamwrasseman]

if that alk would drop you would be dancing in heaven !

[ruprecht]

Update:

Mg- 1300 still

Ca- 340 still

Alk- 15-16 still

Still only dosing B-Ionic Ca supplement and Oceans Blend MgI may be wrong as I have never used that ESV product, but if you are adding calcium carbonate, that is your problem. It sounds like you should be adding calcium chloride to boost your Ca:Mg ratio as to not increase alkalinity.

[lolgranny]

I may be wrong as I have never used that ESV product, but if you are adding calcium carbonate, that is your problem. It sounds like you should be adding calcium chloride to boost your Ca:Mg ratio as to not increase alkalinity.

Im not sure? Its a 2 part solution, one being Alk, the other being Ca. Im not using the Alk part due to my levels currently.

Does anyone else know about this?

[lolgranny]

if that alk would drop you would be dancing in heaven !

Ill give ya a big cheers to that once they do drop haha. I have off work for another 2 months so ive been giving it alot of loving. oww oww :lmao:

[lolgranny]

So i tested the new saltwater again, this time with a new bag of salt since we think the old one was off.

Alk- 28? Is this right in a new mix? I know im testing right because its matching up with the LFS. Im using the API alk test for this one.

Im going to test the water alone in a second....

[lolgranny]

ok.... so now im completly lost.

The regular... RO / DI water is coming out with a alk of 18...

I get the water from the LFS, they use it on there 100+ tanks and dont seem to have 1 issue whatsoever.

now accepting donations for a RO / DI unit so i can put it in my house. HA

[jc-reef]

ok.... so now im completly lost.

The regular... RO / DI water is coming out with a alk of 18...

I get the water from the LFS, they use it on there 100+ tanks and dont seem to have 1 issue whatsoever.

now accepting donations for a RO / DI unit so i can put it in my house. HA

+1.....alk 28-18 = 10...which is much closer to where you want to be. Guess you know the answer to your issue and solution to resolve.:thumbsup:

[alanbates12]

Dude I too got caught up in all the chemistry. My Parameters were about like yours and this is what I did. First I bought two part solution from BRS, http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/products/calcium-alkalinity-magnesium/two-part-calcium-and-alkalinity-solution After using the online calculator I dosed my tank and everything was great but my alk was high like yours. I found using RODI with a TDS of 0. Over time my alk has came down to 9. Maybe look at your additives. Even with water changes my levels stayed the same. Also I've dosed everything to its upper level. After you get your Mg and Ca stable I think you'll notice your alk dropping. If you don't have a lot of corals these levels should not need much maintenance. Just my uneducated thought....

[lolgranny]

Ok so i figured it out, the water ive been using has a Alk of 16!!!!! I wanted to make sure i was testing it right so i took it to 2 other stores today to verify.

DEAD ON! So the RO water i was getting is no good. Now im left with this question, the other store by me that sells water only has DI water. Alk is 0, unsure of the TDS, but this is one of the nicer stores around so i would have to assume that its good.

Ill phase out the alk with water a medium sized water change this week since i just did one lastnight.

Thoughts???

AND!!! Thanks again for all the help guys, i appreciate it very much!

[alanbates12]

Don't know your situation but I'd look into buying a RODI system for your home. I bought one from BRS and I've saved enough money over one month to almost pay for the system. Of course I did do a couple of big water changes. Anyway check this out, http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/75-gpd-ro-di-5-stage-plus-system.html this is only one system. Mine was so easy to hook up. You could even hook it up under your kitchen or bathroom sink. Anyway I"m sure you've thought about this before but its a savings over the long run and you'll not have to worry about the water your getting. Also you can even hook this into your sump and have it automatically top off your system. I"ve been told if I do that this is the only valve you use..http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/level-loc-auto-top-off-unit-for-ro-systems.html Best of luck.