Pedal laceration in Gigantea [Archive] - Reef Central Online Community

beuchat

12/08/2010, 02:59 PM

No way,

The anemone is deflated again. I am thinking maybe it is starting a bacterial infection. Julian Sprung´s book (Coral Reef Vol. II) recommends to look the oral disc and column for sloughing necrosis tissue. If there is none present, then provide strong water flow and observe the animal to see if the condition persists or worsens. If there is necrosis, the anemone must be treated in a hospital tank with antibiotics.

I have prepared the hospital tank just in case, and already got cloramfenicol for this purpose.

Plastic container with heater and a mesh to avoid the anemone to attacht. I will put a koralia inside in case.

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/2540/img6056y.jpg

The antibiotic+temp controller:

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/2082/img60580.jpg

I can not see dead,rotten or torn tissue so I will wait one day more to decide to remove or not. I have recovered previously two heteractis magníficas using this antibiotic and also enrofloxacine, but also lost another two anemones because I could not complete the treatment.

Also read in the book that the clownfishes seem to stimulate the flaccid anemone back to health, in fact I show one of them "diving" into the mouth and some little brown pieces of rest of digested food comming out (like "washing" its stomach)

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/8045/img6050s.jpg

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/2316/img60530.jpg

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3788/img60550.jpg

Any ideas?

Thanks.

garygb

12/08/2010, 04:04 PM

Curious about how you dose the antibiotics and for what time period?

bues0022

12/08/2010, 04:11 PM

beuchat

12/08/2010, 04:33 PM

I am by no means an expert on rehabilitation sick anemones of this kind, but it was my understanding that a clownfish in an otherwise unhealthy anemone could stress it further. You are proposing the opposite. How did you come to said conclusion?

It is descrived in the book "The reef Aquarium vol II" by Julian Sprung and Charles Delbeeck, page 401. Note that they recommend A. percula and A. ocelaris for the gigantea. In my case it is hosting a. polymnus

Also, in page 364 you can read:

"Anemones normally deflate on a rhythmic cycle of expansion and contraction, and this may send the aquarist into throws of alarm. Log term contraction is often but not always a sign of a problem, such as infection or predation by a bristle worm or fish. In Entacmaea quadricolor the process of asexual reproduction via longitudinal fission in preceded by several days of deflation followed by tearing of the oarl disc through the mouth and the column. Is is easy to appreciate why such an appearance could lead the aquarist to assume the anemone is dying!"

So, about my Gigantea I think different possibilities:

1- It is just changing its water inside (no worries)
2- It has contracted a bacterial infection (should be removed to hospital tank).
3- It is in a kind of process to "release" the "baby clones".

I hope the first option is the one!

beuchat

12/09/2010, 09:14 AM

When I woke up this morning it was inflated, now its lunch time and deflated again. It behaves the same as magnificas when they are aclimating: they deflates when light is present and inflated at night.

Maybe is it suffering of free oxigen radicals produced by its zooxantelae photosynthesis?

Any ideas?

bradleym

12/09/2010, 11:21 AM

You've only had the anemone a week. Just a thought, but could it be light acclimation? I had a baby haddoni that was ok for almost a week then started roaming and changing shape, deflating and inflating. It finally died after about 2 weeks.

I just got a bleached haddoni for a second attempt in the same tank. I used a screen to "dim" the lights but after three days it was acting the same as yours. So I added 2 more layers on the screening and he perked up after a few hours.

Toddrtrex

12/09/2010, 11:50 AM

Great point "bradleym" --- I should have caught that, since I seem to tell people to do that all the time.

Randy Holmes-Farley

12/09/2010, 11:51 AM

It seems to me that this is the normal cycle that many (actually, nearly all) shipped giganteas and often haddonis take: expansion and contraction ending in eventual death, regardless of what one does.

Probably bacterial infection, but it isn't known exactly what is happening.

beuchat

12/09/2010, 12:07 PM

Just returned from the office. He is still deflated, no signs of necrosis, mouth open but no everted stomach.

I have switched the leds to "moon light" and let´s see the reactions.

If he does not recover in 24-hours I might remove him and use the antibiotics.

beuchat

12/10/2010, 05:53 AM

I woke up at night (5:00 AM) and checked. It was deflated and dettatched. No necrosis.

I removed and placed it in a QT container with 50 mg/litre of cloramfenicol, with no light.

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/8388/img0151tb.jpg

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/5448/img0153ly.jpg

Looks bad, but maybe can be saved since no necrosis is present

I will decrease the temp to 24º C and cross fingers.

beuchat

12/10/2010, 09:50 AM

Updated.

Is this necrosis or just rests of ingested food and mesenterial filaments?:sad2:

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/8403/img0155sn.jpg

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/1470/img0157u.jpg

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/8271/img0159eo.jpg

beuchat

12/10/2010, 03:00 PM

one hour later (again inflated):

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4527/img0162jm.jpg

and three hours later (deflated but not showing mesenterial filaments):

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/1456/img0166rn.jpg

I have changed all the water with new antibiotic because I can read amonia.

bues0022

12/10/2010, 03:38 PM

I seem to remember Todd once mentioning how he had noticed this oscillatory inflating/deflating - mouth tight/mouth open just prior to eventual deterioration. I don't think he had used antibiotics though. Hopefully it pulls through, though from what I know it isn't looking the greatest right now. Keep documenting this process, as hopefully we can gain some knowledge from this no matter what the eventual outcome.

beuchat

12/10/2010, 03:47 PM

I had similar problem with a h. magnífica and recovered with the antibiotic. But this one is a very big anemone.

We will see...

beuchat

12/11/2010, 04:31 PM

Updated now (1 day later):

Before the water change:

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/8066/anemmesent2.jpg

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/6884/anemmesent1.jpg

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/402/anemmes3.jpg

During water change of the 1 gal of water, with new sea water and antibiotic dosage ( 50 mg/l cloramfenicol)

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/5489/anem4.jpg

After water change:

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/5742/img0201c.jpg

I wonder what is what I have marked in blue in the photos, knowing the polyp anatomy is:

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/7628/anatoma.jpg

I propose the following options:

1- Necrosis and dead tissue.
2- Some necrosis and mesenterial filaments.
3- Mesentarial filamentents and no necrosis.

Any ideas?

garygb

12/11/2010, 06:24 PM

I'm not sure, but I would say mesenteric filaments.

jeffreylesser

12/12/2010, 07:32 PM

+1 filaments.

elegance coral

12/12/2010, 09:17 PM

I hope the antibiotics work. It will be a beautiful anemone if you can save it.

Did Sprung and Delbeek list a reference for the info on gigantea asexual reproduction?

Gigantea is not known to reproduce asexually. By any means. It's very common for anemones to have deformities or abnormalities like yours. This is not evidence of reproduction. There are anemones that are known to reproduce in this fashion, but none of the host species are.

Crustman

12/12/2010, 10:19 PM

I had a haddoni do this. I bought it and would not attach and would inflate and deflate. The inflated nem was just like a big jellyfish. I finally took it back to the store and recieved 1/2 credit for it. It later died at the store. This opened mouth is a bad sign. Hope it recovers for you.

Randy Holmes-Farley

12/13/2010, 06:01 AM

elegance coral

12/13/2010, 06:50 AM

Gigantea is not known to reproduce asexually.

It is reported to do so in the wild:

Incorporating ﬁne-scale seascape composition in an assessment of habitat quality for the giant sea anemone Stichodactyla gigantea in a coral reef shore zone
http://www.springerlink.com/content/l5t2v262r3r58253/fulltext.pdf

from it:

"At the end of the study, 43 anemones existed: nine had disappeared, six had been newly found, and one actinia had divided into three small individuals."

In the link, they reference, Fautin and Allan 1992, to support their statement that gigantea reproduce sexually and asexually. Fautin and Allen 1992 does not support such a statement. Here's a link if you would like to check it out for yourself. http://www.nhm.ku.edu/inverts/ebooks/intro.html

I also received this e-mail from Dr. Fautin on the subject.

"To prevent taking animals from the wild, some well-intentioned people propose cutting sea anemones in pieces to propagate them artificially. I am astonished how often I receive such proposals! It appears that only (or nearly only) anemones that naturally divide will predictably survive this treatment. Despite a persistent belief otherwise, anemones of most species do not reproduce asexually: only two of the 10 species that are natural hosts to anemonefishes do, and that may be a pretty good estimate of the prevalence of that ability among all anemones - 20% of species.

Perhaps the myth that division is how anemones reproduce is due in part to the feeling that anemones are "primitive" and division is a "primitive" attribute (in fact, anemones have been on earth far longer than humans, so can be argued to be more evolved!), and in part because pests such as *Aiptasia* are many peoples' ideas of a "typical" anemone. In fact, they are so prevalent and common precisely because they have that unusual ability - most of the 1000 or so species of anemones are less conspicuous because they do not occur in such densities at least in part because they lack that ability.

Another possible source of the misconception about anemone division is the practice of fragging corals. Clearly anemones and scleractinian corals are closely related. But that does not mean they can be treated identically. All anemones are solitary (even those that divide separate entirely once they have formed separate bodies, whereas polyps of corals in a colony remain physically attached to one another after they have arisen asexually). So fragging is dividing colonies (groups of polyps) into smaller colonies (fewer polyps per piece). By contrast, cutting an anemone into pieces is analogous to cutting you into two or more pieces; and for anemones of most species, the result would be precisely the same -- we would not have numerous identical yous, we would have no you.

Associated with an ability in some anemones to divide (into two or many pieces, depending on the species) is an ability to heal; obviously healing is necessary for regeneration. And although the reverse is not necessarily the case, it seems that animals that do not normally divide also have poor healing ability. So the prospects are dim for propagating anemones of species that do not naturally divide by cutting them into two or more pieces. One person who wrote to me rather triumphantly with a proposal to reduce collection from nature by cutting anemones in pieces as a means of artificial propagation was so pleased because he had cut in half two anemones of a species that does not reproduce asexually (as I recall, it was a species of *Stichodactyla*), and although both halves of one had died, both of the other had survived. So he started with two and ended with two, each half as large as the originals. I failed to see promise in this approach.

And even for the two species of anemonefish host anemones that seem to divide in nature, differences from place to place make me think there may be more than one species of what we think is a single species of each or there may be differences among individuals. Thus, even an anemone that is thought to be able to propagate asexually (*Entacmaea quadricolor*, the bubble-tip, and *Heteractis magnifica*, the "Ritteri" anemone) may die from being cut up.

Daphne Fautin

Daphne G. Fautin
Professor, Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
Curator, Natural History Museum and Biodiversity Research Center
Haworth Hall
University of Kansas"

elegance coral

12/13/2010, 07:13 AM

Randy Holmes-Farley

12/13/2010, 07:13 AM

elegance coral

12/13/2010, 08:01 AM

Since keeping giganteas for long periods is relatively uncommmon, it is expected that "rare" events would go unnoticed unless one surveys large numbers of organisms kept under a great variety of conditions. :)

I totally agree. That's why I haven't said that they lack this ability. I've simply said that they are not known to have this ability. We know very little about these animals and I'm sure there are surprises to be discovered. We can not simply assume an animal has an ability though. In order to say an animal has an ability, we must first prove that they do. I've seen many anemones over the years with growth like the one in this thread. I have never seen, or heard of, one of these growths developing a pedal disk of its own and separating from the original anemone. Until that happens, we can not assume it takes place.

beuchat

12/13/2010, 10:16 AM

I came home for lunch and have a look. In the main tank the blue hadonni was deflating again.. In another rock I have a h. crispa wich has been with me since last september. Some days ago I saw the crispa a bit small but did not give any importance, but today is very small, with many mesenteric filaments coming out from one side of pedal disk (which acording to Sprung means normally a physical agression). I saw previosly a small crab, so maybe he has been picking him.

I feel a kind of "chemical" comunication between the anemones when they deflate, are stressed or ill. ¿Is there a possibility for aleopathy or just transfer of bacteria from one to another?. I removed the crispa to another qt bucket, in that moment the hadonni closed his moth ¿?. Maybe the crispa started the illness and trasnfer the bacteria to the gigantea and the hadonni?. I will place in the tank a crab trap tonight.

The green gigantea in QT has not deflated again, he is inflated and lookin healthy but the mouth is not complete closed. This is the only reason that makes me still not want to return him to the main tank. I have placed over the bucket a small light (lourenscent tube). I remember that light was "helping" deflation in the aquarium. Let´s see the reaction with the antibiotic now.

I will edit the post later to include photos.

Thanks a lot for the info provided!.

BonsaiNut

12/13/2010, 12:51 PM

I totally agree. That's why I haven't said that they lack this ability.

One thing is certain - it isn't a common occurrence (at least not in captivity). I have found zero specific information on the reproductive behavior of this species - sexual or asexual.

I sent the author of the paper an email, so we'll see if they respond. Because the research was conducted over several years maybe they have more specific field notes.

beuchat

12/13/2010, 01:00 PM

I can´t edit my post. Please, find below some new pics.

The anemone seems to recover slowly, he does OK with the lights. Maybe all the bacteria are dead and the infection is halted. The mouth looks closer. No deflation anymore.

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/2347/img6067d.jpg

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/5871/img6071v.jpg

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/2485/img6072w.jpg

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/2792/img6073u.jpg

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5130/img6074m.jpg

I will let him in the bucket with new seawater and antibiotic for one more day. With luck, when returned to the main tank he will be ok. Then I´ll try to take a closer photo of the "false clones?".

It´s amazing that the amonia does not seems to be a problem for him...

BonsaiNut

12/13/2010, 01:26 PM

Amazing.

I would keep him in quarantine for a little bit longer since he seems to be doing better.

This is the first S. gigantea I have ever seen recover after looking as bad as I have seen in your earlier photos. Let's hope he continues to do well!

Can you share - very specifically - the antibiotic you used? Was it a specific brand name?

beuchat

12/13/2010, 02:05 PM

Well, the antibiotic is cloramfenicol, I am afraid it is forbiden in the United States, in fact is toxic for humans so even it is no longer used in veterinary. The dosage is 50 mg/l of pure cloramfenicol (white powder)

But there is another antibiotic called enrofloxacin wich can be given with a vet prescription. Some time ago I recovered a H. magnifica with enrofloxacin (In fact, theoretically is more powerfull and modern than cloramfenicol).

Cloramfenicol seems to be only bacteriostatic and enrofloxacim also bactericide.They should not be use together.

garygb

12/13/2010, 03:00 PM

It's looking better in those last pics. I'm pulling for you to bring it back to good health. Keep up the good work.

bues0022

12/13/2010, 03:33 PM

enrofloxacin is sold under the brand name Baytril, right? Very effective in small animals, so I can see the logic (in terms of effectiveness) behind aquatic use.

beuchat

12/13/2010, 03:45 PM

5Starreef

12/14/2010, 01:04 PM

Updates please!

2Addicted

12/14/2010, 02:36 PM

wow! i thought he was a goner. keep it up!

beuchat

12/14/2010, 02:59 PM

Hi, the response to the antibiotic has been fantastic!!, also before I returned him to the tank I dosage 5 ml/gal of seachem "reef dip" in the bucket (for just 1minute, because he did not like it), afterwards I took him with my two hands and placed gently in the tank over the rocks.

I noticed an improved capacity of attatching and better mobility. I do not know whenever the battle is won or not, but I feel really happy since it seems that I have recover him!.

This pics were taking haf an hour ago, after placed in the tank. He looks really healthy :fun4:. I will upload a video in some minutes.

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/2456/img6076l.jpg

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/3593/img6077i.jpg

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/7396/img6078l.jpg

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9775/img6081c.jpg

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4692/img6080m.jpg

Toddrtrex

12/14/2010, 03:01 PM

Still too soon, but that is really impressive. Wish it was easier to get that antibiotic, sure would be nice to try it and see what would happen.

beuchat

12/14/2010, 04:08 PM

http://vimeo.com/17820502

deangelr

12/14/2010, 04:08 PM

+1 on antibiotic.. makes me feel like I should have some on hand just in case after seeing this thread

deangelr

12/14/2010, 04:10 PM

Great video.. sure seems happy

Randy Holmes-Farley

12/14/2010, 04:38 PM

FWIW, as noted above, some of these antibiotics are very toxic to people, so anyone using them must be very careful to not expose themselves. It may not be a DIY for most people. :)

beuchat

12/14/2010, 07:14 PM

Yes, please, be responsable in the use of antibiotic. Protect yourself and treat used water inactivating the antibiotic before releasing to drains. I will post how to do it tomorrow.

deangelr

12/14/2010, 08:16 PM

Thanks! I deal with toxic chemicals everyday and may not have noted this antibiotic as hazardous had I not herd it here.. 

beuchat

12/15/2010, 02:43 PM

Well, the anemone looks great today. I would say he is completly recovered (cross my fingers!). According to Sprung and Delbeek about how to get rid of the old water with the antibiotic:

"Before discarting the old water put 1/2 cup of bleach per five galons of antibiotic laden water, mix and hold for several hours before you discart the solution down the sanitary sewer. The blech will destroy the remaining antibiotic and any resistant bacteria present".

Toddrtrex

12/15/2010, 03:02 PM

Yes, the "Bayer" commercial name is "Baytril", but it is very expensive. There is a brand called "elhinger" wich makes the product "Elhifloxacino" much more cheaper:

http://www.ehlinger.cl/ehlifloxacino150.html

It is used for dogs.

What is interesting, when I googled "Elhifloxacino" it redirected it, and one of the first links was for "levaquin" which is a fairly strong anti-biotic which I end up having to take about once a year. Wonder if that would be effective -- might even have some in the medicine cabinet.

jeffreylesser

12/15/2010, 10:02 PM

I found some of the original posts on Enrofloxacin very interesting. I have tried a few times to acclimate a Gigantea to my aquarium without success. Each time the results were similar. The first few days were good, and then slowly over time the anemone would do more and more "water changes" on itself, and eventually turn inside out and die. So I ordered some generic enroflaxacin and waited for a good time where I wasn't traveling to start. The OP has been very helpful and has passed some information/journal articles on to me, as well as asking advice from some of his friends who were experimenting with this treatment on fish. This is what I did:

1). I dosed 5mg/l enroflaxacin in a 5 gallon SW bucket. The anemone was in the bucket and I had a nano koralia for flow, a mini heater, and an airstone.

2). Due to water quality issues I changed the 5 gallons twice daily. I do not feel even this was enough as with each water change the anemone perked up immediately. I read ammonia readings of 1.0 at times.

3). Lighting is important. I started off with ambient room lighting, but soon threw a HO flourescent overhead on the bucket, as in even a few days I witnessed bleaching in the anemone. This was still not enough.

4). I did this for 5 days. I can tell you at the end of the five days the anemone did not look like it was going to make it. So I pu it in my DT, where at the least it wouldn't die in a TM Pro bucket.

The anemone has been in my display for 1 1/2 days now and it is fully expanded and the mouth is closed. I am very surprised. Who knows what the future holds for this anemone. I am not sure what can be gleamed from my experiment, but there it is.

BonsaiNut

12/16/2010, 03:55 PM

1). I dosed 5mg/l enroflaxacin in a 5 gallon SW bucket.

What form was the enroflaxacin in? Powder? Liquid?

jeffreylesser

12/16/2010, 04:55 PM

Injectibles(liquid). I think the treatment calls for daily dosage, like a human would take antibiotics, but since I was doing 2x daily water changes I just refreshed the dosage each time I did a water change. Honestly it was pretty tough on the anemone and at one point I thought the treatment was going to kill the patient. Im not sure how I would do it differently, scrubbing the water somehow I think is very important. Problem is with that much antibiotic, biological filtration is out. The medicine I have is 100mg/ml so it worked out roughly to 1 ml for a 5 gallon bucket.

5 gallon X 3.78541179648 litres = 18.9270589824 litres

18.9270589824 * 5mg = 94.635294912 mg

or roughly 1ml of 100mg/ml enrofloxacin

This dosage was based on recommendations and not any real proven regimine that I found. This is about half the dosage that is being used experimentally on fish right now. There is a user on RC that has used enrofloxacin to treat fin rot in angel fish. Here is the link, not a lot of detail.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1355443

BonsaiNut

12/17/2010, 07:32 AM

scrubbing the water somehow I think is very important.

If I understand you correctly, you think that the problem was due to ammonia/waste in a small container, rather than the meds themselves? Would a product like Amquel work to detoxify waste products (since you were changing water so frequently)? It's what I use when medicating / working with large koi in small bodies of water (shipping / taking to shows, etc). It's supposed to work the same in fresh and salt water.

http://www.novalek.com/kordon/amquel_pond/index.htm

beuchat

12/17/2010, 07:49 AM

I do not know Amquel but tried "stop amo" from prodibio and "prime" from Seachem and none of them reduce the amonia in 12 hours time.

BonsaiNut

12/17/2010, 08:13 AM

I do not know Amquel but tried "stop amo" from prodibio and "prime" from Seachem and none of them reduce the amonia in 12 hours time.

I use Pond Amquel, and all I can say is that it almost instantly detoxifies tap water. Here in Southern California, our tap water is horrific - and the water utility doses heavily with chloramines. Pond Amquel not only breaks the chlorine/ammonia bond of the chloramine, but it detoxifies the ammonia. I sometimes need to medicate large 18" or longer koi in small containers (20 gallons or so) and Pond Amquel does a good job for me. I can't imagine that an anemone puts out more ammonia than a large fish, but it is worth trying. Amquel cannot be overdosed, so I add two or three times the normal amount and it "buffers" against ammonia production (or so I hope). This is the product they use at Koi Shows here in Southern California - where people are putting koi worth $1,000's in small show tanks without filtration for a day or more.

Randy Holmes-Farley

12/17/2010, 08:49 AM

I do not know Amquel but tried "stop amo" from prodibio and "prime" from Seachem and none of them reduce the amonia in 12 hours time.

How were you testing for ammonia and how much did you observe?

I explain why some types of kits are not going to give accurate results with some ammonia binders here:

Ammonia and the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php

from it:

The distinction between these methods can be important, as some combinations of ammonia binding products and test methods can lead to false ammonia test results (either causing apparent ammonia presence when it is bound, or simply causing a color that is not predicted by the test kit). For example, a Nessler type kit cannot read ammonia properly if the aquarist is using Amquel, Seachem Prime or related products to bind ammonia. The result is often an off-scale brown color.

So, it is particularly important that aquarists understand how the test kit that they are using, and the binder that they are using interact, and the manufacturers of each are the best place to find such information.

jeffreylesser

12/17/2010, 09:02 AM

I would get cloudy water and lots of waste from the anemone in a very short amount of time. I thought about using amquel, but was concerned, valid or not about introducing something else into the equation. Something to consider, The anemone I was medicating was not small, but rather a good 14" in a five gallon bucket. During the process it also seemed to be ridding itself of zooxanthellae, as it is lighter in color, and even in my display tank is expelling small amounts of brown waste even now. I have it under three layers of window screen, so hopefully this will stop.

But you are right, it could very well have been the product or the dosage. I experimented on one anemone and my results are hardly conclusive, merely anecdotal. I think even something like a filter sock would have been good to collect floating waste so it did not re-enter the mouth. The anemone I treated never looked real great while being medicated, where as the OPs anemone seemed to recover at the end of treatment.

I wish I had taken some pictures when it was really bad. At one point it was down to about 6" in size, crinkled, and the skin was almost hard it was so compact. It was turning inside out, and upside down in the bucket.

Here is a picture after being in the display for 1/2 day. The mouth at this point is trending towards closed, but you can see the body is a little limp:
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq67/jeffreylesser/Tank%20Build/IMG_0121.jpg

Here is a picture yesterday:
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq67/jeffreylesser/Tank%20Build/IMG_0124.jpg

It's closing in on three days in the DT and no signs of deflation. The mouth has been open at times to expel waste, but then it closes again. The anemone seems capable of ridding itself of its own waste at this point. Time will tell.

BonsaiNut

12/17/2010, 09:24 AM

I thought about using amquel, but was concerned, valid or not about introducing something else into the equation.

From the Kordon link I posted, here are some tidbits:

USE: To remove toxic ammonia compounds that build up in aquariums and ponds from the excretion of body wastes by fishes, invertebrates, bacteria, and other aquatic organisms start with a Standard Dose (see definition above). This Standard Dose not only removes the chlorine and chloramines described above, but will also remove (detoxify) at the same time 1.0 mg/L (= approx. 1.0 ppm) of all ammonia compounds in fresh or salt water. Use multiple doses to remove more than 1.0 mg/L ammonia from the water.

CONTRAINDICATIONS: Pond AmQuel should not be added to water containing active, therapeutic dosages of chemical dyes such as methylene blue, acriflavine, potassium permanganate or malachite green, since Pond AmQuel will interfere with their proper performance. Combining Pond AmQuel with these dyes will not result in toxic chemical by-products.

Pond AmQuel is compatible to use with all water quality test kits except for the ammonia test kit that uses Nessler reagents that read in shades of amber or yellow, and the oxygen kit that uses Winkler reagents. Residual Pond AmQuel and its reaction products are incompatible with the Nessler and Winkler-type test reagents, resulting in false, high ammonia and low oxygen concentration readings. All other types of test kits produce accurate test results, such as ammonia test kits using salicylate-type reagents. Pond AmQuel will temporarily (for approximately 12 hours) lower redox.

I will send an email to Kordon and specifically ask about use of their product with anti-bacterial agents.

BonsaiNut

12/17/2010, 09:34 AM

I would get cloudy water and lots of waste from the anemone in a very short amount of time.

Based on what you are describing, I think the anemone looks fantastic. I have seen giganteas in the "death throes" you describe, and I can't recall ever seeing one recover after the "flip upside down and turn inside out" phase.

The cloudy material you describe could have been bacteria, dead body matter, or for that matter, sperm. No real way of knowing without evaluating a sample. Regardless, it is all just ammonia in the end.

Your photos speak louder than words. The anemone appears weak in the first photo, but much better in the second. Don't worry about the zooxanthellae - it is a common biproduct of moving these guys around. As long as they aren't rejecting ALL of their zooxanthellae (and bleaching completely) it is a sign that they are adapting to the new lighting.

jeffreylesser

12/17/2010, 09:53 AM

How were you testing for ammonia and how much did you observe?

I'm not sure about the OP, but as for myself I tested using an API kit. I also have a Salifert kit, but I was interested in a general sense of where the ammonia was 0 or not 0 so it really didn't matter to me. I got readings of .25 to 1.0 ppm from just 12 hours in fresh clean water. I thought the numbers high and I tested my mixing bucket and got 0. At some point I stopped testing an just did 12 hour water changes.

Some of the literature talks about 5 hour baths for fish. Dosages on fish are still being experimented with. I think you could potentially try a daily 5 hour bath, and then into a more sophisticated system for better filtration. If someone could get a hold of 100 Giganteas we could do a real study. ;)

Randy Holmes-Farley

12/17/2010, 10:13 AM

but I was interested in a general sense of where the ammonia was 0 or not 0 so it really didn't matter to me.

If you are using an ammonia binder, the nature of the kit is critical. If not, then perhaps it is not. :)

jeffreylesser

12/17/2010, 11:22 AM

A good read nonetheless. Thanks for the information.

beuchat

12/17/2010, 03:59 PM

Hi,

I used JBL test, NH4 disolved and read 1,0 aprox at 24º and at unknow PH.

Well, this is "my theory" about the anemone illness, of course it has not been proved scientifically:

The anemones have "always" ingested food in their stomachs, inside (were mesenteric filaments are) there are several strains of bacteria (as also in their tentacles, as you can read in academic articles using google) living together "in balance" (the same as in our stomachs :) ).

When the animal is shipped, the changes in the water chemistry(CO2 increase, amonia increase, ph decrease, disolved oxigen decrease, etc) produces an unbalance in the population of bacteria, and "bad bacteria" (for examplo vibrio sp.) take advantage. The infection is then started, inside the anemone and no visual symthoms are shown.After some days, normaly in our tank, the anemone "knows is infected", then everts its stomach in order to get rid of previous rotten ingested food, but without a strong water flow directed applied, the rotten wastes remains inside, then bacteria start consuming the living cells of the tissues and there is a rapid necrosis wich kills the animal very quick.

In an article I read, it explained that the bacteria vibrio sp. introduces itself into the anemone tissues, reproduces and atack the zooxanthellae, inhibiting the photoshynthesis. I though: " maybe, this is the reason that the gigantea inflates at night and deflated in contact with ligh when is infected".

This is extracted from google search:

"Zooxanthellae are known for their symbiotic relationships with coral. Zooxanthellae often suffer from bacterial infections that attack corals. For example, the bacteria that causes Yellow Band/Blotch Disease (YBD) in Montastraea species actually affects the Zooxanthellae endosymbionts rather than the actual organism. Many bacterium interfere with the photosynthetic processes of these organisms".

So, maybe,it is the same situation as with fishes. When they suffer stress, their inmunological system is affected and the bacteria or other parasites takes their oportunity to develop and progress, killing the host.

Just some thoughts about the issue. :wave:

BonsaiNut

12/17/2010, 04:58 PM

So, maybe,it is the same situation as with fishes. When they suffer stress, their inmunological system is affected and the bacteria or other parasites takes their oportunity to develop and progress, killing the host.

Maybe... It would help explain why so many anemones come in "stressed" and they decline even AFTER they are placed in a good environment. I have brought in giganteas that looked great in the store, and placed them in a tank with another healthy gigantea that is thriving, and watched as the new gigantea faded and died.

Which raises another thought, since we are sharing ideas...

I have often wondered about the occurrence where one "sick" anemone is introduced to a tank with healthy anemones, and the first anemone starts to inflate and deflate, and then suddenly all the previously healthy anemones start to inflate and deflate as well. Then one or more of the previously healthy anemones dies along with the newly introduced one. It could easily be due to the healthy anemones ingesting bacteria from the infected one, particularly if the sick anemone is spawning (due to stress) and it is triggering spawning behavior in the other anemones...

I tell you what. This discussion about antibiotics has me more hopeful about figuring out care for these creatures than I have been in a while...

jeffreylesser

12/17/2010, 09:11 PM

Sadly I think my journey is ending tonight. What started as possible sexual reproduction (smoke like appearance from the anemones mouth), ended in full deflation and my clownfish ripping necrotic organs from the anemones everted stomach. It is still alive, but not looking good. I may attempt to put it back into an antibiotic bath, but I probably created super strains of bacteria in this anemone that will not respond. My regimen with enrofloxacin needs to be highly scrutinized/modified.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq67/jeffreylesser/Tank%20Build/IMG_0128.jpg

I feel deflated too.

beuchat

12/17/2010, 09:50 PM

Hi Jeffreylesser, I feel sorry to hear that. Mine was looking worse and recovered. Probably you feel tired but why not give another oportunity in the QT with antibiotic and koralia placced in front of him, without light?.

BonsaiNut

12/18/2010, 12:37 AM

Sadly I think my journey is ending tonight. What started as possible sexual reproduction (smoke like appearance from the anemones mouth), ended in full deflation and my clownfish ripping necrotic organs from the anemones everted stomach.

Are you sure it's necrotic? Pull it out of the water and smell it. Trust me, you'll know right away. It may just be mesenterial filaments that they are pulling at. Regardless, you want to separate it from your clowns or they'll tear it apart.

I don't know - it looks bad but I've seen worse. It can't hurt to try an antibiotic bath. Perhaps this time use an ammonia block?

jeffreylesser

12/18/2010, 07:13 AM

The parts that were pulled out looked pretty bad. Brown and fuzzy in nature. The anemone did have an organ in there that was blue that looked fine(Gonad?) and the clown fish left it alone. This organ appeared to be the source of the smoke. The smoke looked green tinted vs. the white tinted smoke I have seen form other reproducing anemone(BTA). Most of the filaments were pulled off by the fish. Honestly I think what the clown fish did was in the best interests of the anemone as those parts were goners, and it seemed the anemone was try to get rid of them. Can the anemone regrow what was lost? Not sure, but because of the way they split/heal they have a better chance to regrow parts than I do. I can't recall ever reading any information on this topic. I have since moved the anemone back into an antibiotic bath at the same dosage I did before. It's foot was still attached to the rock I had placed under it in the DT. We shall see.

beuchat

12/18/2010, 07:24 AM

velvetelvis

12/18/2010, 08:09 AM

Sorry to hear that. :( Do you think the clowns might have stressed him?

beuchat

12/18/2010, 08:18 AM

Sorry to hear that. :( Do you think the clowns might have stressed him?

Not, for sure. The animal was huge in comparation.

I hope he is replacing the "old" water with rest of antibiotics for "new" water from the DT.

I will keep the post updated. We shall reach some conclusions from jeffreylesser's experiences and mine

jeffreylesser

12/18/2010, 01:13 PM

That is too bad. Pretty much the same thing that happened to the gigantea I have. Im not sure I have noticed this "smoke" behavior in other anemones I have tried to acclimate. My Gigantea looks pretty terrible today, but it is still sticky, so the nemocysts(sp?) are still firing, which I will take as a sign of life.

beuchat

12/18/2010, 05:37 PM

I´ve just returned from cinema.

He is inflating again!!! :beer:

I will post pictures tomorrow!

Virtuoso

12/18/2010, 10:22 PM

Reading this thread as someone who knows absolutely nothing about anemones is mindblowing. Absolutely mindblowing. Beautiful creatures you two have. Hope they both make a complete recovery.

Toddrtrex

12/18/2010, 11:16 PM

Hi, the battle is not still won... :sad1:

He deflated really quick today, was throwing away a lot of "smoke" through his moth.During the water evacuation:

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/9491/deflated1.jpg

Later:

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/5585/deflated2.jpg

I will wait. If tomorrow is still deflated I will return to QT with antibiotic and start again... :sad2:

I really hope that I am wrong, but it could be spawning, but a stress induced spawning. Long story short, about 2 years ago I had to have emergency back surgery, and had an issue with my main pump -- water parameters got all out of whack. The day after I was released my S. Haddoni (( in a very stressed state )) spawned;

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/toddrtrex/Hspawn1.jpg

While it did recover, it never was quite the same and lost it a year later when trying something new.

beuchat

12/19/2010, 05:58 AM

Pics from just 1 minute ago:

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/5651/img6106z.jpg

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/8571/img6107e.jpg

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2842/img6108f.jpg

I am not sure. I will monitor him and if he get worse I will transfer to QT tank again.

jeffreylesser

12/19/2010, 06:10 PM

My anemone died today. I think maybe the enrofloxacin antibiotic bath needs to be longer than 5 days. Seems as though it got better, then the infection set in again. Some of the reading material talked of the antibiotic remaining in fish muscles for up to 5 days. As anemones are mostly water they must cycle the antibiotic out of their system faster than that. This is all conjecture of course. Thoughts?

velvetelvis

12/19/2010, 10:48 PM

Sorry to hear that, jeffreylesser. :(

beuchat

12/20/2010, 05:05 AM

Sorry to hear that!, jeffreylesser :(

Yesterday evening I removed my gigantea from DT and placed again in QT. It inflates again in just 1 hour!. These are my thougts:

Some possibilities:

1-Treatment should be longer.

2-I read that anemones have “good” bacteria in their body’s, wich help like probiotics as a defense against “bad” bacteria. The antibiotic destroys the “good” and “bad” so the animal has no protection when returned to main tank. It is like leaving and operating room in a hospital and enter in a cowshed.

3-The aquarium water is “full of bacteria” and the anemone will never survive there. In my case I run ozone and UW stirilizer so I suppose I minimize this.

I will extend the treatment for more days and try to do water changes with aquarium water, first with antibiotic and later without antibiotic. Maybe mixing new water with small quantities of aquarium water may create like a “vaccine” for the anemone in order to have defenses when returned to display tank.

I think we have shown that the problem is mainly the bacterial infection since the anemone automaticly recovers when placed into water containing antibiotic.

BonsaiNut

12/20/2010, 09:56 AM

If you are using main system tank water for your QT, and the only change is the use of antibiotic, then it seems logical that there is some pathogen that is causing a problem. However just to be certain, let me list other things that might change between the DT and QT:

(1) Lighting
(2) Temperature
(3) Dissolved oxygen levels
(4) Water movement

What would have been interesting is if you had moved your anemone to the QT BEFORE adding the antibiotic, and seen how it responded. If it had remained flaccid / deflated, and then when you added the antibiotic it expanded, we could have felt even more confident that the antibiotic is causing the change.

Just some thoughts. I am still convinced that it must be some pathogen in the water.

I agree the course of action at this point needs to be to try to get the anemone 100% strong and healthy in the QT tank - eventually getting to the point where (via water changes) you have removed the majority of the antibiotic from the water. Then if you move the strong anemone back to the DT and it deflates, you can start to look for other possible environmental causes.

Giganteas are by far the most difficult clown anemone to keep. When I have problems with them, the first thing I always do is to place them in QT with extremely strong water flow and venturis - almost like a surf zone on a reef. We're talking about the QT looking like a bubble bath. One interesting side effect of this is that it really helps remove waste products / slime from the anemone - the entire creature is getting washed back and forth by the water movement, and any loose matter is getting covered with bubbles and swept away. Combined with a strong protein skimmer, this has worked "ok" for me in the past. Not 100% but I have saved some giganteas that were dying in my DT. I have also witnessed the effect you describe, where if you return the anemone too soon it gets sick again, but if you keep it in the surf environment for a couple of weeks and it gets really strong, you can return it and it will make the transition.

beuchat

12/21/2010, 03:36 PM

He has been in QT with cloramfenicol+aquarium water from DT for 48 h and keeped completly inflated and looking healthy.

I changed all water in QT three hours ago with water from the DT, no antibiotic added. He is looking great. I hope he will be ok for some days and then I can return to main tank.

I will try not to add more antibiotic. I will post some pics tomorrow.

beuchat

12/22/2010, 08:09 AM

Well, after 24 hours in QT with water from DT and without antibiotic

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8479/img0245c.jpg

I will keep him in QT for some days without antibiotic, doing water changes from DT every 24 hours. Then place him back to DT.

He looks healthy! :bounce3:

jonnybravo22

12/22/2010, 10:54 AM

this has been a very interesting thread to follow. among other things, it shows the amazing resilience of these creatures under the right circumstances. consider how many times this thing has bounced back already. thanks for sharing.

BonsaiNut

12/22/2010, 11:22 AM

Beuchat, is the water movement in your QT a lot stronger than the water movement in your DT?

velvetelvis

12/22/2010, 11:26 AM

This is better than a soap opera. ;)

Not to harp on the same topic, but do you think it might also be a good idea to keep the clowns away from him for a while (if possible), just so they don't stress the anemone while he's still recovering? Or can hosting clownfish help a recovering anemone, as long as they're not rough?

beuchat

12/22/2010, 11:32 AM

No, it is a lot lower, only a koralia placed near. In DT there are two vortechs mp 40 facing each other and the anemone in the center (more or less).

beuchat

12/22/2010, 01:43 PM

The fishes are very small related to anemone's size
when nem is inflated

Anyway tried to separate them but it is
Imposible

Reefvette

12/22/2010, 01:49 PM

You may have too much flow for your new gig.

How big of a tank and vortech have such incredible power.

beuchat

12/26/2010, 02:52 PM

Well, I needed to travel so I left him in QT without antibiotic for 3 days more. It is very interesting that I have measured 5 ppm !!! of NH4 and he was not damaged. Here is the pic:

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/3359/img0249kf.jpg

I placed him back to DT and hope this is the last trip with no return :worried2:

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1397/img0251dn.jpg

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/6016/img0253gt.jpg

Sorry for the quality of photos, they were taken with the mobile phone

Dan

01/02/2011, 06:24 PM

Below is a video of a gig I had several years ago. At the time I thought it was spawning, but when it did not recover and died a week later, I figured maybe it was a bacterial infection. I had the anemone for about 6 months. It was doing great and there were no changes to the tank at the time. Just went downhill.

<object width="500" height="390">
<embed src="http://raptormountain.net/spawn/Gigantea1.wmv" align="baseline" border="0" width="500" height="390" type="application/x-ms-wmp" pluginspage="http://microsoft.com/windows/Video/en/download/" name="Video" displaysize="4" autosize="1" bgcolor="darkblue" showcontrols="1" showtracker="0" showdisplay="0" showstatusbar="0" videoborder3d="0" stretchtofit="1" autostart="0" loop="0">
</embed></object>

Very interesting to see how antibiotics are helping with beuchat's gig. Your demonstration is very well done. While it looks like a high probability some pathogen is responsible, let us not rule out other possibilities (chemical warfare, trace ozone, water flow, etc.). Wait and see for now.

Dan

beuchat

01/03/2011, 09:13 AM

I needed to remove him again from DT. He tried to inflate but could not finish and started loking like a fried egg.

When in contact with the antibiotic he inflates very quick and looks really healthy. I think there are bad bacteria in his boddy and very probable also in aquarium water

He has been in QT with antibiotic for four days. I will keep him medicated until next week.

Dan

01/03/2011, 12:15 PM

After re-reading this thread and thinking about it some more, I do not believe a pathogen is involved. It recovered in QT without antibiotics. That is what changed my mind. Beuchat also has a haddoni and crispa in the same DT. They also got "sick" when the new gig was introduced. Looks more and more like anemone warfare. Over the years, I have also tried mixed anemone species tanks. Sometimes you just cannot put certain individuals together. As a general rule, different species of the same genus seem to be compatible, while species from different genus not so much. Again, in general. Individuals may vary, with E. quadricolor as a wildcard. Presently, I have H. crispa, H.magnifica, E.quadricolor together for years and doing great. Have tried to add a gig only to have all get "sick". Removal of the gig returned the others to normal. I tried this mix twice with the same result. That gig now resides in it's own tank, recovering without antibiotics. In the past, however, I lost a gig trying to mix, not realizing what was happening.

Is there anyone out there who is successfully keeping Heteractis and Stichodactyla together just fine for years? Please post.

Beuchat - How large is your display tank? What else is in there? Maybe remove the other anemones, do a large water change in the DT, then return the gig to the DT. Also, how is the water flow? Maybe put the circulating pump from QT next to the gig in the DT. It seems to like it.

Dan

BonsaiNut

01/03/2011, 07:07 PM

Dan I'm not sure I agree with you. First, he is using water from his DT in his QT, so if there are chemicals in the DT, wouldn't they also be in the QT? Additionally, the kind of behavior he is describing with his gigantea has been observed in other tanks that contain only giganteas... in other words, a tank with one or more healthy giganteas, and a third gigantea is added and the new anemone starts to decline even when two others are doing well in the same environment.

Dan

01/03/2011, 08:40 PM

I believe the water in QT is changed frequently to control ammonia, so any irritants would be diluted quickly. True about multiple gigs. Its just that from a biological perspective, pathogenic infections do not behave this way. Puzzling. If we were experimenting, removing the other anemones, then adding the new gig back to DT would be the thing to test. Not sure what else Beuchat can try, other than set up another tank for the new gig. Then maybe try mixing again in a few months. Sure is amazing to see the recovery that gig makes when removed from DT, with or without antibiotics.

Dan

beuchat

01/04/2011, 03:29 AM

Weel I am not sure. I think there is a possible "chemical" interaction between them. Maybe when introducing new anemones, the bacteria is transfered to existing nems already in the tank.

In my case the crispa was not looking very good before introducing the mag, and the hadonni was introduced at same time, so aclimatation problems are mixed with the theory of pathogen transfer or allelopathy.

I will keep going in same direction since I want to keep them together and I descart a complete water change.

The tank contains some sps and some LPS and the hadonni (the crispa I returned to the LFS to avoid more "influences" in the situation)

So let´s see how it goes when returned back to DT next week. I am using DT water mixed with antibiotic, changed every 48 hours. In last three days the gig is not so big as used in QT (but looks healthy). I will post pics tonight.

Thanks for your inputs!

BonsaiNut

01/04/2011, 11:17 AM

Puzzling.

Agreed. And I certainly don't have any answers, I am just talking out loud.

One thing that I have wondered about is the presence of reproductive "matter" in the water. It has been noted that when stressed, these anemones will sometimes spawn. Because both S. gigantea and S. haddoni are synchronous spawners, there is a possibility that one stressed anemone continues to release sperm or eggs or other signaling chemicals into the water as it inflates and deflates, possibly causing other anemones stress or triggering inflation/deflation among the other anemones present.

Maybe spawning behavior by one species triggers defensive chemicals from another? (Now I am just hypothesizing widely)

Dan

01/04/2011, 01:49 PM

Agreed. And I certainly don't have any answers, I am just talking out loud.............

............Maybe spawning behavior by one species triggers defensive chemicals from another? (Now I am just hypothesizing widely)

I am only speculating as well. Since we do not perform controlled experiments, all we can do is compile our observations and hope to eventually be able to draw some more definitive conclusions. And your hypothesis is actually correct. Corals will release defensive chemicals in response to detecting other corals' chemicals (including reproductive chemicals). This has been documented during the annual spawning event. I have read this in a scientific journal, but cannot now remember where (maybe Science?).

Dan

beuchat

01/04/2011, 05:06 PM

Today's pic, in QT with antibiotic:

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9008/fotoanemona.jpg

deangelr

01/04/2011, 05:16 PM

Excellent work with this anemoen beuchat.. This is serious dedication

5Starreef

01/05/2011, 09:14 PM

Today, I got a Gigantea from my LFS. It did not look good in the LFS tank, it was deflated but I wanted to give it a try. Following the steps of Beuchat , It is in a QT tank with antibiotics like he did and explain in this thread.

I don´t want to jailbreak his treat , if beauchat doesn´t mind I will post my
experience here.

Thanks for this good information

beuchat

01/06/2011, 09:03 AM

That's fine

The more experiences we have the better
Conclusions we can reach

5Starreef

01/06/2011, 08:21 PM

The first picture was yesterday at 7 PM. As soon as I arrived from the LFS, I put it in a 6 Gal QT and antibiotic. It is not a good picture but as we can look at the stomach is outside down and it was deflate.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/42990443@N06/5331995210/" title="Blue carpet by fivestarreef, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5246/5331995210_7ea7166461.jpg" width="374" height="500" alt="Blue carpet" /></a>

The second picture was taken today at 10 AM, after a water change from DT with antibiotic. It was looking much more better.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/42990443@N06/5331383991/" title="Blue carpet 2 by fivestarreef, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5087/5331383991_9d62494397.jpg" width="374" height="500" alt="Blue carpet 2" /></a>

This picture is right now at 9 PM. I am doing a water change and adding new antibiotic. I didnt get its mouth in the picture but it was close, and it is inflated and looking better.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/42990443@N06/5331384571/" title="Blue carpet 3 by fivestarreef, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5206/5331384571_8559b90187.jpg" width="500" height="374" alt="Blue carpet 3" /></a>

elegance coral

01/07/2011, 05:46 AM

Thanks to both of you for documenting your experiments.

5stareef,
What antibiotics are you using? What dosage are you using? When you change water and add more antibiotics, are you just adding the percentage that you remove with the water change, or how are you handling this?

OrionN

01/07/2011, 02:54 PM

Well, the antibiotic is cloramfenicol, I am afraid it is forbiden in the United States, in fact is toxic for humans so even it is no longer used in veterinary. The dosage is 50 mg/l of pure cloramfenicol (white powder)

.....
Please becareful with cloramfenicol. The reson it is not in use anymore is that ti can cause aplastic anemia (complet failure of the bone marrow) which is fatal if not treat with bone marrow transplant. I was suprise that you can get it until I saw that you are from Spain

papa_dog

01/08/2011, 06:22 AM

Wow, amazing thread and amazing dedication.

Thank you for documenting it (I'll be following along) and good luck.

Cheers,
K.

OrionN

01/08/2011, 08:39 AM

5Starreef, h
Please indicate which antibiotic and dosing regiment, how much/how you dose it. That would help a lot, especially if your anemone end up doing well

5Starreef

01/09/2011, 04:44 PM

Hi guys

Sorry for the delay

I am dosing Baytril 136Mg tablets. The QT is 6 Gal tank , I put 1/8 of the tablet every water change. I am doing water changes every 12 hours. Every water change is a full new 6 gal of water from the DT. I put the older 6 gal water in a bucket with bleach to kill the rest of the antibiotic.

This picture was taken the second day in the morning during the water change.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/42990443@N06/5340065997/" title="Blue carpet 2 day by fivestarreef, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5001/5340065997_8f5642b9c1_z.jpg" width="478" height="640" alt="Blue carpet 2 day" /></a>

The anemone was throwing small black things during the treatment, as we can see in the last picture.

This picture was taken after 4 hours from the morning water change.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/42990443@N06/5331384261/" title="Blue carpet 2-1 by fivestarreef, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5170/5331384261_de25e465a8_z.jpg" width="478" height="640" alt="Blue carpet 2-1" /></a>

This one was taken about 9 PM. I notice a lot of improvement at this time.
We can also see my setup:
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/42990443@N06/5340104391/" title="Blue carpet 2 day by fivestarreef, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5208/5340104391_a3fc352287.jpg" width="500" height="374" alt="Blue carpet 2 day" /></a>

There are two Koralias one 3 and one 1 working alternatively. The other pump is to take the water out for the water changes. It is also a heater. I am keeping the temperature at 79º. The anemone is in a basket to be sure it is not going to the Ks. Also I was monitoring my PH, all the time was between 8.1-8.2. I am using a APEX.

This is a picture of the 3rd day in the afternoon:
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/42990443@N06/5340105573/" title="Blue carpet 2 day by fivestarreef, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5246/5340105573_36c93cb4cd_z.jpg" width="640" height="478" alt="Blue carpet 2 day" /></a>

The next two pictures are from today at 2 PM 2 hours before to put it in the display Tank:
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/42990443@N06/5340861726/" title="Bule Carpet Day 4 by fivestarreef, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5126/5340861726_df88345952_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="Bule Carpet Day 4" /></a>
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/42990443@N06/5340862184/" title="Blu Carpet day 4 by fivestarreef, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5043/5340862184_e12fbe2b67.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="Blu Carpet day 4" /></a>

Now in the DT. It is still in the basket because I dont want to remove its base from the basket, I rather to get it acclimates in the basket and remove it later.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/42990443@N06/5340687262/" title="Blue Carpet 4 day by fivestarreef, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5121/5340687262_df8330bb43_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="Blue Carpet 4 day" /></a>

I was also monitoring the ammonia during the treatment.

beuchat

01/10/2011, 08:19 AM

Hi,

After 10 days in the QT with antibiotics these are the pics:

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/5219/img1000000332.jpg

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/8063/img1000000334.jpg

I have removed him from QT and placed in DT. The specific gravity was 1024 in QT and 1025 in DT so he tends to float, I needed to put a small weight on him in order to avoid a dangerous free swimming.

Please note in the following pic the brown staff wich remained in QT. This are rest of previous ingested food. I believe the infection begins with bacteria attached to this "rotten food" and the anemone needs to get rid of them in order to recover (this is the reason he opens the mouth)

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/3775/img1000000335.jpg

I will keep updating.

I am happy to hear that the procedure seems to have worked in 5starreef's case.

Now we need to achieve a total recuperation in DT!. :worried2:

jeffreylesser

01/10/2011, 11:58 AM

5Starreef

01/10/2011, 01:09 PM

I want to do the math here to be sure. You are using 1/8 of a Baytril(enrofloxacin) 136 Mg tablet. So 136/8 = 17Mg per 6 gallons, or 2.83 Mg a gallon. If that is correct, that is a significantly lower dose than I was using. I was up around 20Mg a gallon. Your anemone looked better at the end than mine did in "QT" for sure. FWIW the gigantea you are working with appears to be a lot smaller than the other two as well. Im not sure what conclusions to draw. Interesting. I wish you continued success in your DT. Please keep us posted.

My Gigantea is about 5-6 inches.
The first and the second day I was dosing 1/8 tablet for 5 gal.
The third day I was dosing 2/8 per 6 gal.
The 4rd day at 8 am I saw the anemone was not doing well, it was inflated but its mouth was open, at this point I change the full water for water of the DT, I did not add the antibiotic. Immediately the anemone inflated in full and close its mouth. I left the anemone in the QT until 4 Pm then I put it in the DT.
The anemone was throwing the brown/black staff that beuchat was talking about in his last post, during all the treatment, when I was adding 2/8 the anemone was throwing a lot more of the brown/black staff.

This is how it looks today. I try to have the clowns away for a while, but as soon as the light went on they were hosting it.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/42990443@N06/5343165393/" title="Anemone Blue 1 by fivestarreef, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5206/5343165393_7062f819aa_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="Anemone Blue 1" /></a>
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/42990443@N06/5343165807/" title="Anemone Blue 2 by fivestarreef, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5206/5343165807_c05e8b33b9.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="Anemone Blue 2" /></a>

In my case I saw that the anemone was much better the second day that the following days, but the last two day was throwing more black staff from his mouth than the days before.

The anemone was not expose at lights at any time during the treatment.

I think the anemone is not fully recover, it is all the time inflated, but sometimes is a 100% at sometimes at 75%. We will see how this is going... :rolleye1:

jeffreylesser

01/10/2011, 04:07 PM

Without the lights, some of the expelled matter was probably zooxanthellae. I saw this in the anemone I was trying to QT. There is probably not much of an option here as most antibiotics break down in UV light(Enrofoxacin included). I am sure it probably has happened with other anemone I have QT'd in the past, but myself I usually use a larger system(20 gallon) with some filtration, so the expelled matter is not as noticeable as it is in these small containers. Good Luck.

beuchat

01/11/2011, 09:05 AM

Hi guys,

Today's videos of the s. gigantea back in DT after 24 hours reintroduction . Also you can see the s. hadonni present already in the tank. Both of them look inflated and healty, sorry for the low quality (I needed to reduce the size of the files).

Maybe I won the battle? :spin1:

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ukGb8magaYI?fs=1&hl=es_ES&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ukGb8magaYI?fs=1&hl=es_ES&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/J1klCdUi9Po?fs=1&hl=es_ES&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/J1klCdUi9Po?fs=1&hl=es_ES&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

I hope they will continue like this! . I am slowly getting crazy taking care of my anemone with bipolar disorder.... :wildone:

deangelr

01/11/2011, 05:14 PM

I hope so too Beuchat! for your sake haha

deangelr

01/11/2011, 05:17 PM

Is enroflaxin as effective as chloramfenicol? Seems like this stuff would be helpfull for us dedicated anemone keepers

Winwood

01/11/2011, 06:47 PM

Man I have been follwing this thread from the beginning and am in utter amazement! Recently I tried to rescue an ailing gigantea using similar methods but was unable to obtain a sufficient amount of Baytril. I was able to retrieve a tiny amont from a friend who had some left over from when he had to treat some of his birds. I used this in the initial treatment which yielded similar results to what both of you have documented. However, I was unable to retreat the specimen after the first water change and the anemone recessed and eventually passed.

My question is two fold;
1. Is there more commonly available antibiotics that may produce similar results? and
2. How does someone obtain baytril from a veterenarian or other source without first injecting their dog or cat with a terrible bacterial infection? I called 5 vet offices and none of them would sell me the product despite a lengthy and detailed explanation of what I was using it for.

OrionN

01/11/2011, 07:15 PM

Baytril is a floroquinolne that only use in pets here in the US. Similar medications that use in human is Cipro (used a lot in chicken feed). Use a floroquinolone for human from your doctor would be OK I think.

5Starreef

01/11/2011, 07:24 PM

I was in a animal clinic with pictures of healthy anemones. I saw the doctor a picture of my one and I explained to him what I want it to do, and he sold me two tablets without any problems.

OrionN

01/12/2011, 06:04 AM

jeffreylesser

01/12/2011, 11:17 AM

Is enroflaxin as effective as chloramfenicol? Seems like this stuff would be helpfull for us dedicated anemone keepers

I think a successful Enrofloxacin regimen has yet to be determined. Use of Chloramfenicol does not come without serious risks, both physical and legal for those of us in the United States. Enrofloxacin does not come without risk either. Here is the warning for humans in regards to the use of enrofloxacin:

"Avoid contact with eyes. In case of contact, immediately flush eyes with copious amounts of water for 15 minutes. In case of dermal contact, wash skin with soap and water. Consult a physician if irritation persists following ocular or dermal exposure. Individuals with a history of hypersensitivity to quinolones should avoid this product. In humans, there is a risk of user photosensitization within a few hours after excessive exposure to quinolones. If excessive accidental exposure occurs, avoid direct sunlight."

To be honest we have yet to see long term success with either medication for a Gigantea. The problem that seems to come up again and again is how to successfully take the anemone off the medication and re-introduce it to a normal tank environment. The OP has an earlier thread about using some of these medications (I believe both) on a Magnifica and I believe this anemone is still alive. Interestingly I believe this animal was treated twice, and failed to reintroduce itself successfully into a reef environment after the first round of treatment.

The medication I purchased(enrofloxacin) was used to treat two anemones (one was not mine) and both animals did not make it.

And yes I myself did find it difficult to find a veterinarian to prescribe medication. My recommendation would be to search for an exotic animal vet, or a vet that specializes in fish (koi). Probably easier in some locales than others.

beuchat

01/13/2011, 08:08 AM

OrionN

01/13/2011, 08:17 AM

To be honest we have yet to see long term success with either medication for a Gigantea. The problem that seems to come up again and again is how to successfully take the anemone off the medication and re-introduce it to a normal tank environment.

I agree,

And bad news. The gig is again deflated!, I am tired...
I would set up full quarantine with light and everything. Keep him in there for at least a week. One day of medication is not going to help a whole lot. Once he continue to be inflated and maybe eating, then take him out of quarantine. IMO, you put him back to DT too quickly before he is fully treated.
FWIW, as Gigantea or any other anemone dying, they look good some of the time. The time when they looking good get less and less then they never expand again. Just because they are fully expanded for 12 or more hrs does not mean that they are cure and healthy.

beuchat

01/13/2011, 08:36 AM

This is a very interesting and exciting story but also "deflates" myself...

I will switch off the LEDs over him , if he does not recover a bit in one or two days them I will transfer him again to QT.

If we could recover him again in QT them we will have to think in:

1- A way to return to DT.
2- Maybe remove the hadonni for some time?

:sad2:

beuchat

01/15/2011, 06:15 AM

Hi

5starreef contacted with me and reported that his gigantea is doing better in DT without light. I set the bluemoon in my KR-92 leds and mine is inflating a bit more. Yesterday went for travel and I left him without direct light (only small comming from the other KR-92 module)

I read some articles like this one:

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/70/11/6855.

were is explained that the bacteria attacks the zooxhantellae of the host. So I thoght:

- When shipped the infection is developed into the anemona.
- The bacteria attacks the zooxanthellae.
- The anemone opens the mouth in order to get rid of rotten ingested food (the source of bacteria)
- The zooxanthelae infected can not process the photoshynthesis and other processes that interact with the anemone, so light, at this stage, is causing the anemone not to feel good, so it deflates.

-The first time I returned my mag to DT he was releasen a "green water flow" from his mouth:

Hi, the battle is not still won... :sad1:

He deflated really quick today, was throwing away a lot of "smoke" through his moth.During the water evacuation:

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/9491/deflated1.jpg

Later:

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/5585/deflated2.jpg

I will wait. If tomorrow is still deflated I will return to QT with antibiotic and start again... :sad2:

-Maybe this green water was water with dead or live zooxhantellae that were released when the nem got in contact with the strong DT lights. He suffered a "light shock" after the infection.

- The gig was cured during the first days in Qt with antibiotics but deflated when returned in DT for excess of light, so I was returning him to QT thinking in the the pathogen, when the infection was halted and the nem only needed a light reacclimatation.

I will report how I find him tomorrow when come back home. He will have stayed for 48 hours without lights.

bradleym

01/18/2011, 12:01 AM

Update? Did the light reacclimation seem to help or is it in for anotther round of meds?

beuchat

01/18/2011, 03:23 AM

Yes, I think it helped for him not to deflate again. The anemone is not still fully inflated although there is a clear trend to improve. I will post some pics tonight. Yesterday he was 30-40% inflated.

this is me

01/18/2011, 10:51 AM

This anemone is a fighter!

beuchat

01/18/2011, 01:28 PM

Hi,

Updated with some photos taken just 1 min ago.

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4626/img1000000347.jpg

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7770/img1000000348.jpg

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/1484/img1000000349.jpg

He is slowly inflating more and more every day. Photoperiod is

8:00-10:00 AM Blue LEDs
10:00 AM to 22:00 Daylight LEDs
22:00 PM to 24:00 PM Blue LEDs
24:00 PM to 8:00 PM Blue Moon LEDs

I hope he does not need more treatment or anything, I will just let him rest and enjoy the current. :bounce3::bounce3::bounce3:

phender

01/18/2011, 09:54 PM

......Enrofloxacin does not come without risk either. ........

Just to reiterate, Enrofloxacin (aka Baytril) is pretty nasty stuff. Most vets only use it for particularly mean infections and don't use at all for puppies or kittens. It is not used at all on people because for some reason (I'm not a pharmacist), it is Toxic to humans. Please take this into consideration when putting you hands into the tank and such.

I also read that it is only slightly soluble, so I don't know how much good putting in the water would do. In addition it may bind with Mg and Ca ions which prevents absorption.
http://wildlife1.wildlifeinformation.org/s/00chem/chcomplex/Enrofloxacin.htm

jeffreylesser

01/19/2011, 10:19 AM

Good information, I don't think I found this page in my google searches.

Just to reiterate, Enrofloxacin (aka Baytril) is pretty nasty stuff. Most vets only use it for particularly mean infections and don't use at all for puppies or kittens. It is not used at all on people because for some reason (I'm not a pharmacist), it is Toxic to humans. Please take this into consideration when putting you hands into the tank and such.

It says this at the bottom of the page:

"Hallucinations, vivid dreams and headache may occur if enrofloxacin is given to humans."

The Hallucinations and vivid dreams seems to fall in line with photo-sensitivity information I had. Photo-sensitivity sounds like something the manufacturer of the drug would say. :)

I also read that it is only slightly soluble, so I don't know how much good putting in the water would do. In addition it may bind with Mg and Ca ions which prevents absorption.
http://wildlife1.wildlifeinformation.org/s/00chem/chcomplex/Enrofloxacin.htm

I am not sure about the Mg and Ca Ions, but the medication I used was injectible so soulbility is not an issue in that case. It has been tested on koi, where some of the test groups were given the antibiotic as an injection, and some in a bath. But you may be right, how much Ca and Mg is in freshwater for koi? 0?

With all of that said, I am not sure if enrofloxacin worked or not in my case. I would however say the anemone being treated with chloramphenicol at least shows some signs that the antibiotic has an affect. I have seen many Giganteas die in acclimation from myself, others, LFS, etc... and I have never seen one go through these fits for this long. It is a fighter for sure.

phender

01/19/2011, 01:52 PM

beuchat

01/19/2011, 03:51 PM

Did either of you try doxycycline? It has been a while, but there was a thread where somebody was using it successfully for either H. magnifica or giganteas. I don't remember which and the search function didn't turn up any threads for me.

No, I have not tried but I think it belongs to the same family of antibiotics

I have reduced the photoperiod to:

10:00 to 15:00 blue LEDs
15:00 to 21:00 daylight LEDs
21:00 to 02:00 blue LEDs
02:00 to 10:00 bluemoon

The anemone is not still completely inflated but he is looking better each day.

beuchat

01/19/2011, 03:52 PM

Did either of you try doxycycline? It has been a while, but there was a thread where somebody was using it successfully for either H. magnifica or giganteas. I don't remember which and the search function didn't turn up any threads for me.

No, I have not tried but I think it belongs to the same family of antibiotics

I have reduced the photoperiod to:

10:00 to 15:00 blue LEDs
15:00 to 21:00 daylight LEDs
21:00 to 02:00 blue LEDs
02:00 to 10:00 bluemoon

The anemone is not still completely inflated but he is looking better day by day.

jeffreylesser

01/19/2011, 06:29 PM

maxxII

01/22/2011, 05:45 PM

Did either of you try doxycycline? It has been a while, but there was a thread where somebody was using it successfully for either H. magnifica or giganteas. I don't remember which and the search function didn't turn up any threads for me.

I certainly appreciate the efforts that you guys are going through to try and further our understanding of a very difficult anemone species.

Phil,
I have used Doxy on H.magnifica anemones with mixed results.

Here is the link I think you are looking for:

QT Procedures for Anemones (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=970807)

I have two H.magnifica anemone's currently. One I've had for almost 5 years, the other I've had for a little over two months, and is in the process of rehabilitating and acclimating to captivity.

The first is mentioned in the thread I linked to. I'd had it for about a year, got another one and put it in the display tank with the original. I thought that since the original was healthy, the water quality in the tank was good and therefore gave the new arrival the best chance for success. What happened was the new arrival was sick, and promptly infected my healthy one. The new arrival died within a day or two and the original hung on for a few days looking worse every day.

I spoke to a LFS owner who reccomended the Doxy, and went to the vet. I have a large breed dog, (Not like yours Phil, but still pretty big) and explained what I needed and why to my dog's vet. He was surprised, but went along with it.

I did a 12 hour total bath with the sick anemone. It was placed into a viewer/specimen container like the ones used at LFS for placing fish in to sell. The container was kept in my display, hooked over the tank rim to keep it from going anywhere. The anemone was kept in the tank to maintain light and temp as normal. I inserted an airstone in the container with the anemone and a single pill of Doxy, (dont recall the dosage per pill. Will get that information when I get home) and let it sit.

The anemone was slime-ing pretty heavily and caused the air bubbles from the stone to build up to a Doxy mucus wall. I placed an acrylic sheet over the top of the container to prevent it from running into the display.

After 6 hours I did a 100% water change in the container, and added another doxy pill and reinserted the air stone.

After 12 hours total, the anemone looked better, but still deflated and unhappy. I returned the anemone to the display in the hopes that it would get better. It would deflate/inflate for a short period of time for the next 3 days, and then finally stopped doing that altogether.

I have attempted to treat other H.magnifica anemones prior to keeping them in QT. Some looked better afterwards, some did not. For various reasons, none of the others survived, until this latest one.

I suspect that Doxy only affects certain types of bacteria. Its been awhile since my bio chem/Micro Bio days, but IIRC, Doxy is a gram postive anti-bacterial and doesnt affect gram negative strains of bacteria....or vice versa :crazy1:

Nick

this is me

01/27/2011, 03:27 PM

Any update on this?

beuchat

01/29/2011, 02:17 PM

The gigantea din not inflate completly.Was improving until he stopped in 50% aprox. during several days. I increased the current to modify this variable and it deflated very quick in only one day.

I removed him today and placed in QT with 50 mg/l of chroramfenicol. There is also the blue hadonni in the same tank and maybe there is also a chemical war. I do not know what to think at this point of the story, maybe is time to remove for some days the hadonni, but my other QT is occupied with a tang. If I recover the gig again I will trasnfer the tang to the sump and remove the hadonni.

I can not get either one of the two nems to be completly inflated during 24 hours.

Reefkeeper 18

01/29/2011, 08:32 PM

Interesting article. I have a Bta deflating just about everyday. Doesnt shoot out "smoke" tho

deangelr

01/31/2011, 04:27 PM

Michelle S

01/31/2011, 05:53 PM

I'd like to see a photo of that red carpet anemone you have...

beuchat

02/01/2011, 05:46 PM

Hi, updated tonight:

The gig after two days in DT transfered after two days in QT with antibiotics:

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/3513/img1000000357.jpg

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/5932/img1000000359.jpg

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1930/img1000000356.jpg

I have removed the blue hadonni. He never was complete inflated with day lights on and is suffering a lot of stress from the amphiprion polymnus (Their size is huge in comparation). I took him with the rock he was attached to. I will transfer the two amphiprion polymnus to another QT before reintroducing the hadonni.

Before removal:

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/5837/img1000000354.jpg

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/8664/img1000000358.jpg

After placed in QT with antibiotic. Please note in the second picture how it opens the mouth towards the current.

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9907/img1000000360.jpg

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/3246/img1000000362.jpg

I know he does not look very well but he is behaving in cycles of inflation and deflation following blue light-day light photoperiod.

If we see a significative improvement in the green gigantea during the time the hadonni is out I should start considering chemical interaction. I am running 1 Kg of activated carbon in a fluidized reactor, plus another 1 kg in the sump, after the skimmer outflow. Total vol is 500 litres (125 gal)

ocellaris123

02/01/2011, 06:01 PM

I would not blast the haddoni with super high flow in the quarantine, as they aren't fans of high flow

beuchat

02/01/2011, 10:40 PM

OK, thank you

beuchat

02/02/2011, 12:28 PM

Updated, this afternoon photos. The gig in DT and the hadonni in QT with antibiotic:

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/7158/img1000000376.jpg

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/2409/img1000000378.jpg

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/91/img1000000374.jpg

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/945/img1000000364.jpg´

I will wait for two days and then reintroduce the blue hadonni back to DT. If the gigantea deflates them I think allelopathy is present between them.

Any ideas, thoughts?

ocellaris123

02/02/2011, 01:35 PM

Allelopathy could very well be the culprit. I used to have Macrodactyla doreensis in my tank, but when I introduced a blue haddoni the Doreensis almost completely deflated looking like death, and they never opened up fully again when sharing the tank with the haddoni. The haddoni probably shed some nematocysts into the water when being dropped in my aquarium. In the end I had to give away the doreensis to ensure their best health. It is also possible that your gigantea could very well be suffering from a bacterial infection, and the presence of the other anemones is adding further stress to the animal due to allelopathy. Just my thoughts.

beuchat

02/02/2011, 01:48 PM

Thanks ocellaris123

Do you think is there a significant degree of consenus between aquarists about allelopathy among anemones?.

I never hear about it outside this forum.

ocellaris123

02/02/2011, 02:20 PM

Not sure what others think, but i'm sure allelopathy occurs when mixing different anemone species. Some people have had luck mixing anemone species together, some with multiple species coexisting with out any negative reactions. Than there are those who have had bad experiences with mixing different host species. The first time I read about the negatives about mixing different anemone species was from A. Calfo on wetweb.

beuchat

02/02/2011, 02:49 PM

OK, would be so interesting to understand how it works. I tried with google search but I only could find articles about allelopathy between anemones and algae.

Then, can I assume no problems of chemical warfare with another gigantea placed in my tank?

Fishy_Clown

02/02/2011, 03:40 PM

I have never had success mixing Haddonis and Gigs. Multiple Gigs OR multiple Haddonis no problem, but not been lucky mixing them. After a while (in my case) the Gig would always deflate and become unhealthy until removed.

beuchat

02/02/2011, 05:09 PM

What about giganteas and magnificas?.

I would like to to that if I finally remove the blue hadonni

ocellaris123

02/02/2011, 07:18 PM

There could be chemical interactions between a gigantea and magnifica. I would focus on getting this gigantea to 100% before you try the mix.

beuchat

02/05/2011, 12:06 PM

The hadonni will be picken up by a friend next weekend. I hope he does ok in his tank.

Now I am trying to feed the gigantea for first time. I stop the vortechs and place some krill near the mouth but the nem does not make any movement...

I added a vial of reefbooster and he inflated just a bit more.

jeffreylesser

02/05/2011, 06:59 PM

Well I am at it again. I should have probably let well enough alone. I picked up a green gigantea yesterday. It was well inflated, great looking foot with a closed mouth. The tank it was in had several other giganteas in it, and a couple were not fairing well. so... I decided to try a prophylactic dip with enrofloxacin. I did a 12 hour bath(without waking at 5 on Saturday it ended up being 15 hours). The mouth has stayed closed the whole time. In the LFS, in the bag, in drip acclimation, during treatment and now in the tank. So this is promising.

Here is the anemone right out of the bag:
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq67/jeffreylesser/Tank%20Build/IMG_0145.jpg

Here is the anemone in treatment, no lights as UV will break down enrofloxacin:
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq67/jeffreylesser/Tank%20Build/IMG_0146.jpg

Here is the anemone first thing this morning in the DT:
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq67/jeffreylesser/Tank%20Build/IMG_0148.jpg

Here is the anemone now:
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq67/jeffreylesser/Tank%20Build/IMG_0149.jpg

The trumpeting behavior seems a bit odd, it did this in the LFS too. Mouth looks great. It is so tight, I honestly can't see the mouth in the tank right now, as the tentacles seem to run right up to it. I have tried different flows, as IME and from my reading, that usually the trumpeting behavior is a sign of a lack of oxygen, or a desire for more flow. Nothing seems to make much difference, and high flows seems to beat it around more since it is protruded out. I have seen pictures of Haddoni (I think Todd's maybe?) doing this when sexually reproducing but I don't think that is the case here, no smoke.

I have incredible control over the flow. I have a closed loop with a movable y jet on the floor of the tank, maybe a foot from the anemone. I have an Oceans Motions four way to alternate flow, and I have a valve to adjust just how much flow I want out of the jet. Any suggestions?

5Starreef

02/05/2011, 07:12 PM

It Looks very good !!!

Good luck this time!!

this is me

02/05/2011, 08:57 PM

Jeff, that's a great looking gigantea. My purple gig also elongate the column 2 to 3 inches sometime during the lights on cycle. I have a ton of flow(mp40 at full blast in a 30"x20" tank).
I know mushrooms do this when the light is not enough. I'm not sure if this is the case but I have 250w DE 6" from the water and the gig is probably 14" from the water surface.

jeffreylesser

02/05/2011, 09:20 PM

I have a ton of light. It is on the bottom, so maybe 21" from the surface. I am running two radium 20K 250 Watt SE, and 4 39 watt t5s over a 4x2x2 tank. They are maybe 7" from the surface. It is possible it wants more light, they are light hungry. It is a good idea for sure. Duh, I just realized while typing this that I have a few pieces of screen on top of eggcrate on the top of the tank. Those are now moved. I will try pumping up the volume on the flow again.

beuchat

02/06/2011, 05:51 AM

Hi Jeffrey, good to hear that! . The anemone looks very healthy

Good luck and keep us updated with your progress

jeffreylesser

02/07/2011, 10:42 AM

The anemone is deflated this morning. Although you can see in the pictures the mouth is closed, if you look close you can see the barley like strucutre(s) I believe to be the siphonoplyphs(?). Not a great sign, but I will wait and see how it progresses today. The last one to get antibiotics from me smoked out green a few days after treatment I believe. Maybe this happened in the middle of the night as well, a sort of antibiotic water change?

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq67/jeffreylesser/Tank%20Build/IMG_0151.jpg

My fingers are crossed...

I may need an intervention and placed in a facility like The Stichodactyla Ford Clinic, or Giganteas Anonymous.

beuchat

02/07/2011, 03:43 PM

Yes I think they are the siphonoglyphs, I can see they also in my gig. This a picture from one hour ago:

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/1218/img1000000382.jpg

He has not increased the inflation or deflation since I reintroduced him in DT from QT with antibiotics.

I think the name "The Stichodactyla Ford Clinic" is a great marketing strategy, maybe we could add:

"Come and learn more about our health insurance program for your anemone, because deflation happens".

jeffreylesser

02/07/2011, 03:52 PM

Update: The anemone has inflated since the lights came on. The mouth is nice and tight now. I tried to get a good shot in low flow, to show the level of inflation, and it seems to be doing well.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq67/jeffreylesser/Tank%20Build/aad24b9d.jpg

I removed the eggcrate completely from the top of my tank, and cut a custom piece to let me continue light acclimation in another part of the tank while giving full light to the anemone. I also cleaned my braces up top too. There is not much else in terms of light I can do except lower my fixture, or move the anemone up. I moved the anemones rock a couple of inches towards being directly under one of my MH. I think I will let it stay where it is for now.

On a side note, my clowns are going bezerk. They have eaten some tentacles from the anemone and they are on it 24/7. They have even gone so far as to nip at my tangs if they are close by. My powder blue does not find this amusing and has gotten dangerously close to being stung by the anemone.

beuchat

02/08/2011, 08:00 AM

Sounds good. I hope he continues in the right direction

My gig was today with the mouth a bit open... let´s see what happens. Probably he will deflate again.

jeffreylesser

02/08/2011, 01:55 PM

The gigantea was deflated this morning, but the mouth was still closed. As soon as the lights came on it has inflated again. The mouth is closed and the foot is well attached. I am hoping this is just a sign of it acclimating to the tank. The column is still stretching but not quite as trumpet shaped as before. I think I am ready to give the anemone a little more flow. My only hesitation is how much flow since it is on the smaller side. I have seen very small gigs(2-3 inches) actually move out of high flow situations, so I think flow may be a little Dependant on size(a guess for sure). I have seen videos of large giganteas in tremendous flow. What are your thoughts out there in RC land? Any help would be great.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq67/jeffreylesser/Tank%20Build/IMG_0158.jpg

elegance coral

02/08/2011, 06:27 PM

jeffreylesser

02/10/2011, 10:54 PM

beuchat

02/11/2011, 10:08 AM

Good luck, mine has attached and move a bit over one rock. He is still throwing away some brown stuff. Not completly inflated (50%)

R33f3r

02/11/2011, 10:55 AM

I moved the anemone up in the rock work, but alas I fear the downward spiral is starting. It has deflated multiple times today, and is no longer sticky. I tried feeding chopped clams today, but there was absolutely no response. It is still attached to the rock, but that is about the only good news. Maybe tomorrow will be better.

Usually when this happens, it's pretty much a goner with this species. Attaching is still a good sign like you said. Hopefully it makes it :)

jeffreylesser

02/11/2011, 11:55 AM

Here are some shots from this morning. It is still not sticky, and I can see a slow trickle of zooxanthalea. The foot is starting to detach. On the bright side the mouth is still closed and I see no signs of infection. So there may be some promise with the 12 hour enroflaxacin bath. At this point I think I am seeing a failure to thrive. It has been at some level of inflation all morning. I hope the initial low placement in the tank is not the culprit. :(

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq67/jeffreylesser/IMG_0159.jpg

Here is the foot:
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq67/jeffreylesser/IMG_0160.jpg

Flow is low at this point, I think if I bumped it up it may detach.

beuchat

02/11/2011, 12:34 PM

If you place him in QT with the antibiotic I think it is good for him to throw away the ingested food slowly....

beuchat

02/18/2011, 04:01 PM

reefscape7

02/19/2011, 06:18 AM

Hi there, Just got a gig last wk- almost just like yours ( but blue ) with a split foot, starting to divide.
I have had to treat him also.. once done thou I have added him to a bucket with a water feed throught a uv and then overflows back to the tank. Bucket is placed over the main tank with the rim just off the water surface ) Slow flow theough a small UV into bucket.
This way he is in the tank water ( but with less pathogens ) and hopfully will recover enough before adding him proper to the tank.

I will post some pics..

reefscape7

02/19/2011, 06:34 AM

When I got him.. started looking ill over a few days and so took him to the vet to get anti biobiotics..

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/reefscape/bluegigrecovery004.jpg

after treating in his uv fed bucket

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/reefscape/bluegigrecovery012.jpg

Showing the same foot, starting to split.

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/reefscape/bluegigrecovery015.jpg

jeffreylesser

02/19/2011, 11:45 AM

Well,

It is time to understand that my gig. is not able to handle the bacteria content in the aquarium water. When completely deflated I remove him to QT with antibiotic and he recovers, but when reintroduced in DT he deflates completely in some days...

I changed from cloramfenicol to enrofloxacing, the gig. recovered the sticky properties in QT, but after, in DT he deflates again....

I thought it was possible to recover the nem with the antibiotic, but as far as I have experienced, it is only temporary.

Good luck to all the anemone fans out there!

Mine did not make it. As typical the inflation deflation cycles started to increase until the anemone no longer inflated. I never did see any signs of infection though. Even at deaths doorstep the foot looked good. I would say the 12 hour bath seemed to show promise for infection, but there also appears to be a lot of other variables involved in getting one of these anemones to properly acclimate. From my experience with enrofloxacin, it is pretty hard on the animal, the 12 hour bath seemed to be a safe treatment option. Possibly a bath every day. The animal I had in the 5 day bath suffered tremendously under treatment.

On a side note I did use enrofloxacin to successfully treat fin rot in a wrasse using 5 hour daily baths(5 mg/l). It definitely works on fish! A five hour daily bath keeps the biological filtration completely intact in a QT tank, as for five hours the fish is fine in a bucket with a heater and powerhead. It worked well for me and I will do it again(hopefully I won't need too) if the situattion arises.

shutiny

02/19/2011, 12:32 PM

Well,

It is time to understand that my gig. is not able to handle the bacteria content in the aquarium water. When completly deflated I remove him to QT with antibiotic and he recovers, but when reintroduced in DT he deflates completly in some days...

I changed from cloramfenicol to enrofloxacing, the gig. recovered the sticky properties in QT, but after, in DT he deflates again....

I thought it was possible to recover the nem with the antibiotic, but as far as I have experienced, it is only temporary.

Good luck to all the anemone fans out there!

I respect what you have done, and am hoping that you will continue your efforts in trying to save this animal. You have a rather unusual gigantea, you made it this far, and I hate to see you loose it. Just wondering, what was the dosage conentration that you were treating?

I tried the clormafenicol @250mg/5gal H2O/5 days and the results were very similar to yours. Then, I tried a loading dose 1g/5gal H2O concentration for the first 12 hr, then @ 500mg/5gal for 14 days and the result thus far seems promising. I used 40gal water volum for 4 anemones and did water chage every 24 hr except the first day.

Why not try it at a higher dose? Do you have access to a lab with negative pressured environment? If you don't, gloved, masked and cover when enter the treatment room should be your routine. May be a temporary out door treatment facility will lower your risks of exposure to the high concentration of the med.

By the ways, I did the study while I was overseas.

beuchat

02/19/2011, 01:51 PM

When I got him.. started looking ill over a few days and so took him to the vet to get anti biobiotics..

I wish you good luck, your giganteas are really nice!, where di you get them?, maybe they ship to Spain, although is defenitively better to pick in LFS.

I would say the 12 hour bath seemed to show promise for infection, but there also appears to be a lot of other variables involved in getting one of these anemones to properly acclimate.

Yes, I agree there are many others variable to consider. Maybe when the infection progresses, althouht treated, there is no way back, just a thought. Probably a profilactic antibiotic in the shiping bag from the wholesaler...

I respect what you have done, and am hoping that you will continue your efforts in trying to save this animal. You have a rather unusual gigantea, you made it this far, and I hate to see you loose it. Just wondering, what was the dosage conentration that you were treating?

Thank you. With cloramfenicol a used 50 mg/l and with Enrofloxacing 10 mg/l. 24 hours bath, water change everyday when possible.

Why not try it at a higher dose?

Well, I am not sure, in Julian Sprung´s book does not recomend a higher dosis, but who knows.... I think that much of we are doing is based on trials and errors and anecdotical experiences. I would be fantastic to have the advise of professional persons like microbiologists. Maybe we could see under the microscope the anemone tissues when healthy and after infected and so. I wrote to a person with a CV full of many investigation scientific articles about anemones and corals but I got no answer.

reefscape7

02/19/2011, 04:04 PM

I used Enrofloxacin 5mg per litre to treat...

reefscape7

02/20/2011, 11:25 AM

Hi. My blue gig responded fine to the antibiotics, and was also good in the uv fed bucket ( with the tank water ) but as soon as he went back to the tank this afternoon ( a few hours ) he deflated and started showing problems.
Def bacteria in the water me thinks!
I will be treated him and the rest of the gigs now, as there has been cross contamination and the other healthy ones are not looking too good. The plan to treat all the nems and then add a largish box ( mini tank ) and feed water through the UV with a 600l per hour. Hold them for a few weeks like this and let the main tank settle down again...

Ill keep you updated on this.

beuchat

02/20/2011, 12:16 PM

Hi reefscape7,

If I understand you, the gigantea does not deflate when placed in the bucket feeded with DT water sterilized with UV?

reefscape7

02/20/2011, 02:33 PM

Hi Buchat,

Yes thats right- had the gig like this for 3 days with no problem. Ive taken him out of the main tank proper back to the uv fed bucket and hes re enflated again.
I also add lugols iodine. About 3x strengh to the main tank and 4 drops to the 3 litre bucket every now and again. The proper dosage is 1 drop to 50 gallons- so 4 drops to 3 litres is really quiet strong. It doesnt stay this high as the water is slowly being added Via the UV.
Lugols is potassium iodide with elemental iodine dissolved in. Its very anti bacterial. You add it and the nem absorbes this killing a lot of the interal bacteria.
The gig and haddinis seem ok with the iodine- with the haddonis I have added 15 drops to a 3 litre bucket with no bad effects. They curl a little but in 5 mins they are ok again..
I came up with this method for a blue haddoni a few months back- it worked well as I didnt have anti biotics at the time. The haddoni now.. Lost quiet a lot of its disc to a rotting infection so has a v shape where it goes almost to the mouth. I also added lugols directly to the wound..

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/reefscape/clownandnem022.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/reefscape/Feb2010034.jpg

reefscape7

02/20/2011, 02:54 PM

On a final note- when the nem ' blows smoke ' it definiatly infects other anenomes...
I think it is like if you get flu or a cold- the virus makes you sneeze thereby spreading the infection to other people- with nems its the same- it spreads the pathogen into a water bourn form. The other nems absorbe water and carry the infection into their digestive system and so on..?

beuchat

02/21/2011, 07:07 AM

Maybe we can think of "the chemical war" as a pathogen transfer....

jeffreylesser

02/21/2011, 05:46 PM

reefscape7, your collection of carpets is absolutely ridiculously amazing.

OrionN

02/21/2011, 10:17 PM

reefscape7, your collection of carpets is absolutely ridiculously amazing.

I don't think so. Gigantea, Haddoni and Merten all toughing in the tank with red slime. I am not sure how many of these anemones will be around in a week or two.

R33f3r

02/22/2011, 09:50 AM

Not to mention the allelopathy.

jeffreylesser

02/22/2011, 10:44 AM

I don't think so. Gigantea, Haddoni and Merten all toughing in the tank with red slime. I am not sure how many of these anemones will be around in a week or two.

Ha! You made me look again. I was mesmerized by the colors... You are right, there is a Mertensi in there too! In the first pic above he has LTAs in the tank as well. I also didn't notice this the first time I looked. I would fail as a detective. I now wonder the goal of this system. I would imagine most of these would have to have been in the system for a while to get that many hard to find anemones. Unless the poster goes to wholesalers? Look at the boxes for the LTAs, this is also odd for a hobbyists tank...

The anemones are still incredibly beautiful and it would be a shame if you are right.

reefscape7

02/24/2011, 02:17 PM

[/IMG]:I don't think so. Gigantea, Haddoni and Merten all toughing in the tank with red slime. I am not sure how many of these anemones will be around in a week or two.

Your a funny man! These nems are in their own system, set up just for them with no skimmer...and hence some cyno..
Allelopathy is not a problem they have been living together for 6 months..and are all from the same biotope
This is my usual work. I only look after about 20 tanks for people and visiting them once per month- hope it meets with your approval mate.

You obviously have a lot more experience than me :strange:

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/reefscape/londonsnow2010005.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/reefscape/DSCF0681.jpg

beuchat

02/24/2011, 02:23 PM

those nems are amazing, I wish you the best of luck!

5Starreef

02/24/2011, 02:36 PM

[/IMG]:

Your a funny man! These nems are in their own system, set up just for them with no skimmer...and hence some cyno..
Allelopathy is not a problem they have been living together for 6 months..and are all from the same biotope
This is my usual work. I only look after about 20 tanks for people and visiting them once per month- hope it meets with your approval mate.

You obviously have a lot more experience than me :strange:

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/reefscape/londonsnow2010005.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/reefscape/DSCF0681.jpg

Nice answer, your anemones are looking very well, it seems that you know very well what are you doing, the best of luck!

You are posting to help the anemones and other reefers, please keep doing it!

reefscape7

02/24/2011, 02:42 PM

just wanted to say- Im not wholesale, and dont sell to the general public but do hold these animals for my clients.

On the nem front- Ive noticed some interesting facts. The gigs that became ill are in a tank with macrodactyla doreensis and heteractis magnifica and mertens. These are not affected by the infections problems only the haddonis and gigs. ( i havent needed to treat any of these only the gigs and haddonis )
I was using baytrill ( which I wouldnt recommend ) but have also tried Chloramphenicol ( which is a lot better ). The infection is very aggressive and if you dont treat in the first day they the gigs have had it TBH. The haddonis are better and seem to usually pull through.

beuchat

02/24/2011, 02:55 PM

The infection is very aggressive and if you dont treat in the first day they the gigs have had it TBH. The haddonis are better and seem to usually pull through.

Yes, that is the reason I think it would be a good idea to always quarantaine with cloramfenicol for two days or so after placing in DT

reefscape7

02/24/2011, 03:11 PM

Ill 2nd that- its difficult as almost all gigs you get in normal retail places are really not in gd condition.
The ones I have are caught just for me and then shipped from ocean to me in 4 days!
Usually they are caught and then sit export holding tanks for days, then a few days in shipping, then not always the best conditions on arrival- meaning by the time they get to sale they are on deaths door often..
I def wouldnt use baytrill I dont think- my nems really didnt like it. Better Chloramphenicol if you can get it ( I had to take a nem to the vet to get hold of it!! ) and it cost equiventent of $100 for that..
One thing I did notice- the ph in QT should be noted. Mine was dropping below 8 when lights were off, so added a kalk reactor at 1ml per min to try and stop this.

jeffreylesser

02/24/2011, 10:43 PM

just wanted to say- I'm not wholesale, and don't sell to the general public but do hold these animals for my clients.

I personally would welcome a wholesaler on this discussion. To be honest there are probably some wholesalers/retailers out there who may have in fact figured out a part of this puzzle, but keep that to themselves as a "trade secret". The sheer volume of these animals moving through their systems, I would imagine, would have led many down this same road.

The suggestion by Delbeek/Sprung of potentially using Chloramphenicol is in a book copyrighted in 1997. Surely experimentation/trials like this have happened before. I think it a shame that the health of these animals may be hampered by a lack of desire to share information because of greed. But I digress.

reefscape7

02/25/2011, 03:18 AM

If only it were that simple- I do agree that saving these animals would be a good thing.
In reality however I dont think this really happens.
I am trade and buy wholesale in the UK ( i just dont sell to the public ) The sad thing is that gigs are very very cheap from a $$ standpoint. The profits are high but the losses are very low if they die, so generally the work to find a treatment is NOT done
- I do this because most of my stock I hold for months and sometimes years, before adding to my cutomers tanks ( its not just about $$ for me )
All my stock has to survive, as I'll be looking after it for years after adding customers aquariums.

My supplier in the philipiens has said that even with natural sea water holding tanks ( set up on the beach ) the losses with gigs is quiet high due to their delicate nature..

I personally would welcome a wholesaler on this discussion. To be honest there are probably some wholesalers/retailers out there who may have in fact figured out a part of this puzzle, but keep that to themselves as a "trade secret". The sheer volume of these animals moving through their systems, I would imagine, would have led many down this same road.

The suggestion by Delbeek/Sprung of potentially using Chloramphenicol is in a book copyrighted in 1997. Surely experimentation/trials like this have happened before. I think it a shame that the health of these animals may be hampered by a lack of desire to share information because of greed. But I digress.

beuchat

02/25/2011, 05:11 AM

Mi gigantea is in still QT with enrofloxacine, I do not perform daily water changes. He is inflated 50% but when placed in DT he deflates completly in two days or so. I think his inmunological system is destroyed so I am doing a kind of "artificial life support" .

Mi other QT tank is holding a ctenochaetus hawainensis with fin rot that need time (I will perform 5 hour daily bath with 5 mg/l enrofloxacine)

I do not know what to do with my loved gigantea. Maybe is time to let him go..

:(

reefscape7

02/25/2011, 05:44 AM

I would definatly give it a go with the uv bucket idea- You may need a uv on the main system anyway.
I used a 600l per hour uv to feed the bucket..
That way you can keep him there for weeks and let him become adjusted. I used a 5 litre container suspended with the rim just off the water surface, under the lights. You might also feed water through normal airline after a few weeks. Increase the ammount of ' normal ' water slowly allowing the nem to readjusted its immune system to the main tank water with higher bacterial content- rather than just plonking him into it straight off.

beuchat

02/25/2011, 06:23 AM

The problem is that a new red hadonni and an old blue hadonni, which was previously trapped by a vortech, are in DT and they can be infected in case the gig. shares the same water… I will wait to clear my other QT and hope the gig. is able to handle

jeffreylesser

02/25/2011, 10:04 AM

You could do UV on the in and out of the bucket...

beuchat

02/25/2011, 12:14 PM

OK, I will buy another UV sterilizer and set up the system. I will update periodically

Wish me luck

jeffreylesser

02/25/2011, 11:30 PM

If only it were that simple- I do agree that saving these animals would be a good thing.
In reality however I dont think this really happens.
I am trade and buy wholesale in the UK ( i just dont sell to the public ) The sad thing is that gigs are very very cheap from a $$ standpoint. The profits are high but the losses are very low if they die, so generally the work to find a treatment is NOT done
- I do this because most of my stock I hold for months and sometimes years, before adding to my cutomers tanks ( its not just about $$ for me )
All my stock has to survive, as I'll be looking after it for years after adding customers aquariums.

My supplier in the philipiens has said that even with natural sea water holding tanks ( set up on the beach ) the losses with gigs is quiet high due to their delicate nature..

There are some quality suppliers out there. I would love to know the full Divers Den procedure. I wouldn't be surprised if they did something that isn't commonly done in hobbyist systems. I could be wrong.

What do you run on your system? No skimmer is interesting. Do you run a lot of carbon? I read a real interesing article/thread(I can't remember the source, wilkins, delbeek/sprung maybe?) that said most successful anemones(long term) are in systems that, supprisingly according to the polling, use tap water and not RO/DI.

reefscape7

02/26/2011, 07:05 AM

Hi. There probably is quality suppliers some where ( in the world ) not really here in the uk thou..

The system i run is using and algae filter.. Quiet a large on for the size of the tank- it is almost the same sq foot area as the main tank.
I have had v gd results in regards to health of all corals and nems although the tank doesnt look so ' clean ' and is unsuitable for aquarium install and maintainence ( as clients want it to look clean above all else )
I also add Ca(OH) in the night time period as ph does start to drop and the nems dont like that one bit..
This system is based on my reserch on here and into the enviroment nems come from. Often for haddonis and gigs its sea grass areas, coastal ( dirty ) enviroments..

BTW there is no carbon, phosphate remover or much kit. Just a sump, algae, heater, light, kalk reactor and pump. Although I have added a uv now since having probs with pathogens.

some general shots of the coral in his system..

QUOTE=jeffreylesser;18403732]There are some quality suppliers out there. I would love to know the full Divers Den procedure. I wouldn't be surprised if they did something that isn't commonly done in hobbyist systems. I could be wrong.

What do you run on your system? No skimmer is interesting. Do you run a lot of carbon? I read a real interesing article/thread(I can't remember the source, wilkins, delbeek/sprung maybe?) that said most successful anemones(long term) are in systems that, supprisingly according to the polling, use tap water and not RO/DI.[/QUOTE]

reefscape7

02/26/2011, 07:16 AM

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/reefscape/newclownfish008.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/reefscape/Feb2010023.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/reefscape/newclownfish004.jpg

maxxII

02/26/2011, 07:49 AM

There are some quality suppliers out there. I would love to know the full Divers Den procedure. I wouldn't be surprised if they did something that isn't commonly done in hobbyist systems. I could be wrong.

What do you run on your system? No skimmer is interesting. Do you run a lot of carbon? I read a real interesing article/thread(I can't remember the source, wilkins, delbeek/sprung maybe?) that said most successful anemones(long term) are in systems that, supprisingly according to the polling, use tap water and not RO/DI.

Dr. Foster and Smith Divers Den Anemone Survival Thread (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1514061)

Kervon Kohen from DFS posts on that thread on the first page and goes in depth with their process on anemones.

Nick

beuchat

02/26/2011, 09:23 AM

I think that "water quality" is overrated when talking about anemones. I have been diving in Indonesia and saw hadonnis and giganteas near the beach, next to rocks and in sand and they were exposed to large changes in salinity and covered by mud and nutriends coming from rains on earth.

I do not claim that we can relax about the water quality of our system but I have heard things that "If your ORP drops below 350 you can not add anemones to your tank" or "salinity should be 1026 in order for them to thrive" (does it means that at 1025 they will not be as healthy?)

IME my gigantea is still living because I used antibiotics. I think that 75% of survival in captivity is related to the skills of the animal to handle the bacteria present in water and in its tissues... and of course light, water flow and so on..

Another issue that really remains a mistery to me is allelopathy, this is the reason because yesterday I decided no to mix the QT water with the DT water (even if using UV) were two hadonnies are living now.

I placed the gig in QT with new salt water and a biological filter and koralia.

Before removing him from QT with enrofloxacine:

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/2189/img1000000405.jpg

The "big" QT sistem (with HQI 10.000 ºK) and DT (Recovering after a dinos plague some months ago)

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3346/img1000000409.jpg

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2022/img1000000413.jpg

This is how he looks like now:

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6320/img1000000412.jpg

I assume that all bacteria were killed by enrofloxacine before so there will be a very low concentration of new bacteria in the QT water and I hope he can handle this

jeffreylesser

02/26/2011, 11:22 AM

Dr. Foster and Smith Divers Den Anemone Survival Thread (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1514061)

Kervon Kohen from DFS posts on that thread on the first page and goes in depth with their process on anemones.

Nick

Thanks. Nothing new here in terms of acclimation, but a quality procedure none the less. Most of my LFS around here have all the anemones in boxes with low flow in the same raceway, with pretty weak lighting overhead. I am sure this is typical of most LFS, but not all, as there are exceptions around me as well. I have read some of their information on their site and it certainly says something for a supplier to QT for six weeks before sale. I know of only a handful of places that do this. Starting to get off topic, but the chain of custody as Kervon puts it seems to be a big factor in survival as well.

Creetin

03/03/2011, 09:02 AM

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/reefscape/clownandnem022.jpg

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/reefscape/Feb2010034.jpg

Is that an Atlantic carpet nem on the bottom right??

beuchat

03/11/2011, 12:14 PM

Updated today, one month in the QT with no water changes, no antibiotic and under 150 W MH.

I gave him half a small shrimp and he took it. This is a pic after the food was catched and pushed into the stomach.

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/5825/img1000000445.jpg

maxxII

03/19/2011, 01:26 AM

How is the nem doing now Beauchat?

Nick

beuchat

03/20/2011, 02:49 PM

Well, I fed him three times, but only the first time the food was not regurgitated away some hours later.

The feeding did not help and the nem started to daflate again. Today I came back from a trip and the QT was dirty and he was looking worse.

I do not want to use antibiotics again so I have placed him in DT. I do not know how he will doing in the new enviroment.

beuchat

03/24/2011, 03:10 PM

The story finish here. The nem died today :(

Randy Holmes-Farley

03/24/2011, 03:19 PM

Very sorry to hear that. :(

luisse25

03/24/2011, 04:38 PM

i am very sorry to hear...i read the whole thread:(

5Starreef

03/24/2011, 05:01 PM

Thanks Beuchat, to share all of this information with us.

this is me

03/24/2011, 05:17 PM

Sorry to hear that Beuchat. Thanks for making the effort.

ocellaris123

03/25/2011, 10:10 AM

Sad to hear, I hope your other carpets are doing well

trueblackpercula

04/02/2011, 05:18 PM

read your thread sorry about the loss....but at least you made every attempt to keep it going. Gigantea are hit or miss.....Wish i could find one for my tank as they are hard to come by healthy, I would take one in any colors theses days.... click on my red house to see the one I had and no i am not selling any fish its an old web page i created when i was selling onxy,,,,,enjoy and thanks for sharing you efforts.

blueroof

04/25/2011, 05:24 AM

It is Easter he may still come back.:eek:

emdr888

11/21/2011, 02:26 PM

Amazing effort beauchat, sorry for the loss. I've got a 2 haddoni, lta and magnifica in my tank...all seem to be doing well ....so not sure about the allopathy, haven't had a gig yet though.

Never see gigs in the shops, where do you get your nems from reefscape...I'd love one of those! Any chance you could get one for me?

Showme01

01/14/2012, 10:26 PM

what a bummer, so sorry you lost it.

stickleback

02/21/2012, 06:23 AM

Know its old, but its a Great Thread.

One thought that struck me about giving nems an antibiotic bath is that maybe the good bacteria is being killed along with the bad. Maybe the good bacteria within the nems gut, is being wiped out therefore it can no longer digest food. The un-digested food will then start to decompose and start the downhill cycle again. Does that sound plausible?
Maybe after a nem has been put through one of these baths, some good bacterial could be added to the nems food (pre-digested maybe) to kick start the nems own digestion process?

jbm421

03/04/2012, 02:13 AM

Wow thanks for sharing all the great pics. Absolutely BEAUTIFUL!

Flighty

04/08/2012, 07:36 PM

Sorry I missed this thread. I have been out of the hobby for a while now due to a happy but too busy life with four young kids. I do hope you all get this topic worked out by the time the kids are all in college and I can restart the tanks.

I wanted to add a link to this old thread that has a plethora of information for anyone still looking into this
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=628314

Finsky

07/08/2012, 01:03 PM

It is always a bummer when a special creature like the anemone is lost. I say this from previous experience.

At his moment I have two RBTAs three GBTAs on the left side of my tank with a breeding pair of Tomato clowns hosting in the BTAs.

I added(rescued) a six inch Brown Tue Carpet anemone about two months ago from Petco for $25. I have feed him a razor clam with silverside sandwhich once per week like I feed the BTAs.

As the Tomato clowns will not accept another clown I happended to get a free Domino Damsel which was returned to the lfs from someone who said it was "mean". He hid for one month from my four stripe damsels before he was accepted into the community to swiim without being bothered. I had read where a Domino will host in a True Carpet Anemone if one is present. The Domino made a territory around and hoving over the True Carpet.

This monring for the first time I saw him "in" the True Carpet.

I thinks it is better for an anemone to have a host than to not have a host.

maxxII

07/08/2012, 04:42 PM

Finsky

07/09/2012, 06:38 PM

There are times and situations where not having clownfish is better for the overall health of the anemone. I have had weak and recovering anemones get beaten up by clowns and had food stolen from them after they had expended the energy of "catching" the food I placed in the tentacles, drawn it to their mouth and had the clowns then drive in and steal the food from the anemones. I lost one weakened H.magnifica anemone that way, and while bringing another back from the brink, saw the clowns engaging in the same behavior.

I order to save the anemone, I seperated it from the clowns and over time it made a full recovery and now the clowns are being hosted by that H.magnifica.

Do NOT get into the mindset that clowns/damsels are ALWAYS a good thing for the anemone. There are times when the anemone is not able to handle the stress induced by hosting a fish symbiont.

Nick

ThatFishPlace out of Lancaster, Pennsylvania has a Web site which has a page describing what species of clownfish host in what species of anemone in the ocean.

I think this is a good place to start finding an appropriate host for you anemone.

My Tomato clowns totally ignore my True Carpet anemone.

I fortunately have a six year old pair of Tomato clowns who have always taken care of their bubble tip anemones. They will even take floating food and put it into their anemones. The female is so protective of the five bubble tips she will bite through two sugical gloves and draw blood.

I suppose if you have an anemone which is very, very small AND sick and it is kept it with a larger clownfish, you might have a circumstance like you state. Then the answer might be would the anemone have died anyway without the clownfish trying to host?

It is obvious that nothing is 100% although in my experience I have always had my Tomato clownfish take care of a green bubble tip I move from the right side to the left because it 1) was not doing well on the right side and 2) I wanted to put a True Carpet anemone on the right side by itself. This anemone was gently carressed by the Tomato clowns and it is now doing spendidly!

So do not get in the mind set that a weakened anemone will not get help from a caring and protective clownfish.

I wondering whether the clownfish stealing from the anemones were tank raised?

I think my pair might have been from the ocean although I do not know as I got them from a lfs 20 miles north six years ago.

I cannot stress how caring they are with their anemones to help them acclimate and grow.

I would always try to get an anemone a good host if at all possible since that is what they do in the ocean, the real world!

maxxII

07/09/2012, 07:53 PM

ThatFishPlace out of Lancaster, Pennsylvania has a Web site which has a page describing what species of clownfish host in what species of anemone in the ocean.

I think this is a good place to start finding an appropriate host for you anemone.

My Tomato clowns totally ignore my True Carpet anemone.

I fortunately have a six year old pair of Tomato clowns who have always taken care of their bubble tip anemones. They will even take floating food and put it into their anemones. The female is so protective of the five bubble tips she will bite through two sugical gloves and draw blood.

I suppose if you have an anemone which is very, very small AND sick and it is kept it with a larger clownfish, you might have a circumstance like you state. Then the answer might be would the anemone have died anyway without the clownfish trying to host?

It is obvious that nothing is 100% although in my experience I have always had my Tomato clownfish take care of a green bubble tip I move from the right side to the left because it 1) was not doing well on the right side and 2) I wanted to put a True Carpet anemone on the right side by itself. This anemone was gently carressed by the Tomato clowns and it is now doing spendidly!

So do not get in the mind set that a weakened anemone will not get help from a caring and protective clownfish.

I wondering whether the clownfish stealing from the anemones were tank raised?

I think my pair might have been from the ocean although I do not know as I got them from a lfs 20 miles north six years ago.

I cannot stress how caring they are with their anemones to help them acclimate and grow.

I would always try to get an anemone a good host if at all possible since that is what they do in the ocean, the real world!

Finsky,

I dont mean to be rude, but there is some misinformation in your post:

Anemone's are the host organism. Clownfish are symbionts being hosted by the anemone.

Clowns bring food to the anemone because its a safe place to bring food, and they dont have to fight other fish for it. They are not feeding the anemone. The anemone has feeding response to the food touching its chemical receptors. But the clowns are not deliberately feeding the anemone.

My Picasso Percula clowns almost killed my purple based H.magnifica anemone.

Heteractis Magnifica - Tell me some success stories (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=749311&highlight=heteractis+magnifica) 1st page, post 15 is where I start detailing the process I used to bring the anemone back to full health. These same clowns killed a larger and healthier H.magnifica I bought locally less than 6 months prior to this, by stealing food from its mouth. I had no idea clowns could do this so I didnt pay too close attention and by the time I figured it out, it was too late and the anemone was not able to survive. These clowns were about a year and half old at that point and were not at breeding age. They are now.

The part where you state a weakened anemone would die on its own without a host, (symbiont) is entirely correct. If its so weak that it wont survive on its own, adding clowns to it is the worst thing you could do it. Get the anemone healthy first, then add clowns. If the clowns are too rough, then remove them and wait until the anemone is in better shape.

As far as clowns being tank raised causing them to steal from the host anemone. I have two pairs of breeding Percula's, both were captive bred and steal from their host. I have had other wild caught clowns that did the same thing.

The vast majority of commonly available clownfish in the hobby are actually tank bred and raised these days. The exotic breeds are generally the ones that are wild caught. Chrystopterus clowns, (Blue Stripe) clowns are a good example of this.

I'm not advocating keeping anemones without clowns. I'm advocating acclimating anemones without clowns until they are healthy enough to handle it. There is a difference.

Nick

Finsky

07/10/2012, 10:02 PM

Finsky,

I dont mean to be rude, but there is some misinformation in your post:

Anemone's are the host organism. Clownfish are symbionts being hosted by the anemone.

Clowns bring food to the anemone because its a safe place to bring food, and they dont have to fight other fish for it. They are not feeding the anemone. The anemone has feeding response to the food touching its chemical receptors. But the clowns are not deliberately feeding the anemone.

My Picasso Percula clowns almost killed my purple based H.magnifica anemone.

Heteractis Magnifica - Tell me some success stories (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=749311&highlight=heteractis+magnifica) 1st page, post 15 is where I start detailing the process I used to bring the anemone back to full health. These same clowns killed a larger and healthier H.magnifica I bought locally less than 6 months prior to this, by stealing food from its mouth. I had no idea clowns could do this so I didnt pay too close attention and by the time I figured it out, it was too late and the anemone was not able to survive. These clowns were about a year and half old at that point and were not at breeding age. They are now.

The part where you state a weakened anemone would die on its own without a host, (symbiont) is entirely correct. If its so weak that it wont survive on its own, adding clowns to it is the worst thing you could do it. Get the anemone healthy first, then add clowns. If the clowns are too rough, then remove them and wait until the anemone is in better shape.

As far as clowns being tank raised causing them to steal from the host anemone. I have two pairs of breeding Percula's, both were captive bred and steal from their host. I have had other wild caught clowns that did the same thing.

The vast majority of commonly available clownfish in the hobby are actually tank bred and raised these days. The exotic breeds are generally the ones that are wild caught. Chrystopterus clowns, (Blue Stripe) clowns are a good example of this.

I'm not advocating keeping anemones without clowns. I'm advocating acclimating anemones without clowns until they are healthy enough to handle it. There is a difference.

Nick

Yes, I should have used the verb "hosting" in the anemone when referring to the clownfish and anemones. I was just reading about the different relationships between ocean creatures "and their scientific terms" for one organism benefiting the other being hurt, both organisms benefiting, one benefiting and the other neither benefiting or hurt, in Tropical Fish Hobbyist or Tropical Fish International with all the biological terms for the different relationships As far as bringing food to the anemone, my Tomato clowns never bring food when I broadcast feed my tank three times per week or lightly feed on off days. The only time I have noticed my Tomatos, the female usually, bringing "food" to an anemone is when I have been target feeding the five Bubble Tip anemones and one True Carpet anemone with their weekly 1/2" pieces of razor clam. The clownfish will only return a large piece of razor clam that was floating freely and they put it in the anemone. I suppose you could get differing views on whether she is "hiding" razor clam in the anemones to eat herself later or "feeding" the anemones. My female Tomato will nuzzle an anemone with a 1/2" piece of razor clam inside it has wrapped around almost appearing to nuzzle the food very lightly.

I would wonder what Julius Sprung would say about your insight into unsuccessful clownfish hosting and your clowns behavior towards your anemones. I think it is possible to have a clownfish do more harm than good with a "sick" anemone although the "sick" anemone maybe is sick in the first place due to incorrect water quality, lighting, circulation in the tank, feeding, etc. I think with all these aspects correct for your anemone, a hosting or clownfish hosting in the anemone is a good thing more often than not. I can only say this from my experience and what I have read.

Please visit the following Web site link to read more on clownfish and anemones which is "probably" written with input by one or more Marine Biologists?

http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatfishblog/2010/03/10/eeny-meeny-miny-anemone-clownfish-and-anemone-preference/

D-Nak

07/11/2012, 03:16 AM

This thread has steered waaay off course, but let's clarify a few things...

Finsky,
I'm not advocating keeping anemones without clowns. I'm advocating acclimating anemones without clowns until they are healthy enough to handle it. There is a difference.

+1. There are many accounts of clowns being very "rough" on anemones. I've experienced it as well. When I first added my purple gigantea, my onyx clowns tried to torpedo their way into the anemone's mouth. The gig died three weeks later -- I don't think it was exclusively a result of the clowns beating up the anemone, but the clowns definitely didn't "help" the anemone.

As far as bringing food to the anemone, my Tomato clowns never bring food when I broadcast feed my tank three times per week or lightly feed on off days. The only time I have noticed my Tomatos, the female usually, bringing "food" to an anemone is when I have been target feeding the five Bubble Tip anemones and one True Carpet anemone with their weekly 1/2" pieces of razor clam. The clownfish will only return a large piece of razor clam that was floating freely and they put it in the anemone. I suppose you could get differing views on whether she is "hiding" razor clam in the anemones to eat herself later or "feeding" the anemones. My female Tomato will nuzzle an anemone with a 1/2" piece of razor clam inside it has wrapped around almost appearing to nuzzle the food very lightly.

I would wonder what Julius Sprung would say about your insight into unsuccessful clownfish hosting and your clowns behavior towards your anemones. I think it is possible to have a clownfish do more harm than good with a "sick" anemone although the "sick" anemone maybe is sick in the first place due to incorrect water quality, lighting, circulation in the tank, feeding, etc. I think with all these aspects correct for your anemone, a hosting or clownfish hosting in the anemone is a good thing more often than not. I can only say this from my experience and what I have read.

Please visit the following Web site link to read more on clownfish and anemones which is "probably" written with input by one or more Marine Biologists?

http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatfishblog/2010/03/10/eeny-meeny-miny-anemone-clownfish-and-anemone-preference/

Rather than reading blogs from a pet store, I suggest picking up a copy of "Anemone Fishes and Their Host Sea Anemones" by Fautin and Allen. Fautin is recognized as the clownfish and host anemone expert.

Here's what the book says about clowns feeding anemones:

"Recall that clownfishes are never found in nature without an anemone; this is an obligate association for them, although in captivity they are capable of living by themselves. It seems obvious that they are protected by the anemone with which they live -- when threatened, they dive among its tentacles, from which most other fishes remain distant. We have taken clownfish far from their anemones, and have removed anemones from beneath their fish. Poor swimmers, they sooner (in the former instance) or later (in the latter) became prey of larger fish. The presence of an anemone is also essential to reproduction of the fishes: their eggs are laid beneath the oral disc overhang of the anemone, where they are tended by the male (see chapter 4).

In an aquarium, without an actinian, captive fish will bathe among air bubbles or frondose vegetation, so we infer that they obtain tactile stimulation from anemone tentacles. And the claim of some aquarists that the fish are livelier and healthier when kept with anemones suggests other benefits as well.

Indeed, aquarists have added much to knowledge of this symbiosis. Many have seen fish bring food to their anemones. This behaviour seems confined to aquaria. The normal diet of clownfishes is small plants and animals that live in the water above the anemone, or algae that grow around it (chapter 4). In nature, they do not encounter large particles of food, so they eat their food where it is found. Feeding large morsels to a fish in an aquarium produces an artifact: the fish, unable to devour the piece immediately, takes it home to work on it in the relative security of its own territory, as is typical of predators that obtain food in large amounts. But the territory in this case consumes the food!"

Finally, I think you meant Julian Sprung, unless he's got a brother named Julius. :lol2:

Finsky

07/11/2012, 07:03 PM

This thread has steered waaay off course, but let's clarify a few things...

+1. There are many accounts of clowns being very "rough" on anemones. I've experienced it as well. When I first added my purple gigantea, my onyx clowns tried to torpedo their way into the anemone's mouth. The gig died three weeks later -- I don't think it was exclusively a result of the clowns beating up the anemone, but the clowns definitely didn't "help" the anemone.

Rather than reading blogs from a pet store, I suggest picking up a copy of "Anemone Fishes and Their Host Sea Anemones" by Fautin and Allen. Fautin is recognized as the clownfish and host anemone expert.

Here's what the book says about clowns feeding anemones:

"Recall that clownfishes are never found in nature without an anemone; this is an obligate association for them, although in captivity they are capable of living by themselves. It seems obvious that they are protected by the anemone with which they live -- when threatened, they dive among its tentacles, from which most other fishes remain distant. We have taken clownfish far from their anemones, and have removed anemones from beneath their fish. Poor swimmers, they sooner (in the former instance) or later (in the latter) became prey of larger fish. The presence of an anemone is also essential to reproduction of the fishes: their eggs are laid beneath the oral disc overhang of the anemone, where they are tended by the male (see chapter 4).

In an aquarium, without an actinian, captive fish will bathe among air bubbles or frondose vegetation, so we infer that they obtain tactile stimulation from anemone tentacles. And the claim of some aquarists that the fish are livelier and healthier when kept with anemones suggests other benefits as well.

Indeed, aquarists have added much to knowledge of this symbiosis. Many have seen fish bring food to their anemones. This behaviour seems confined to aquaria. The normal diet of clownfishes is small plants and animals that live in the water above the anemone, or algae that grow around it (chapter 4). In nature, they do not encounter large particles of food, so they eat their food where it is found. Feeding large morsels to a fish in an aquarium produces an artifact: the fish, unable to devour the piece immediately, takes it home to work on it in the relative security of its own territory, as is typical of predators that obtain food in large amounts. But the territory in this case consumes the food!"

Finally, I think you meant Julian Sprung, unless he's got a brother named Julius. :lol2:

Yes of course you are correct.

I am sorry you are having sick anemones as I have experienced this myself.

Now I have three year old bubble tips and a six month old True Carpet anemone doing well.

They have a very gentle pair of Tomato clowns who do not burrow into them like a ramrod. They have always been gentle. Maybe I was just fotunate to find a breeding pair who continue to breed and are very gentle with their anemones.

I attribute most if not all anmone sicknesses due to the capture and acclimation process up to the time it is taken home from the lfs although it can continue a downward trend if the correct aquarium environment is not given.

I have found anemones ordered through Dr. Fosters and Smith Live Aquaria online to be healthy and stay that way.

Again, all joking aside, I think it is imperative to acquire healthy anemones AND to provide them with a healthy environment which takes alot of work and knowledge gained by experience and readling. I own and have read Julian Sprung's three volumes.

maxxII

07/11/2012, 08:05 PM

I am not a Marine Biologist and I am so grateful to have you "correct" my "errors"

Yes, I should have used the verb "hosting" in the anemone when referring to the clownfish and anemones. I was just reading about the different relationships between ocean creatures "and their scientific terms" for one organism benefiting the other being hurt, both organisms benefiting, one benefiting and the other neither benefiting or hurt, in Tropical Fish Hobbyist or Tropical Fish International with all the biological terms for the different relationships As far as bringing food to the anemone, my Tomato clowns never bring food when I broadcast feed my tank three times per week or lightly feed on off days. The only time I have noticed my Tomatos, the female usually, bringing "food" to an anemone is when I have been target feeding the five Bubble Tip anemones and one True Carpet anemone with their weekly 1/2" pieces of razor clam. The clownfish will only return a large piece of razor clam that was floating freely and they put it in the anemone. I suppose you could get differing views on whether she is "hiding" razor clam in the anemones to eat herself later or "feeding" the anemones. My female Tomato will nuzzle an anemone with a 1/2" piece of razor clam inside it has wrapped around almost appearing to nuzzle the food very lightly.

I would wonder what Julius Sprung would say about your insight into unsuccessful clownfish hosting and your clowns behavior towards your anemones. I think it is possible to have a clownfish do more harm than good with a "sick" anemone although the "sick" anemone maybe is sick in the first place due to incorrect water quality, lighting, circulation in the tank, feeding, etc. I think with all these aspects correct for your anemone, a hosting or clownfish hosting in the anemone is a good thing more often than not. I can only say this from my experience and what I have read.

Please visit the following Web site link to read more on clownfish and anemones which is "probably" written with input by one or more Marine Biologists?

http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatfishblog/2010/03/10/eeny-meeny-miny-anemone-clownfish-and-anemone-preference/

Finsky,
I am not now, nor have I been or claimed to be a Marine Biologist. I have taken Marine Biology in both high school and in college, but that’s about the extent of my formal education in it. Like you and 95% of the rest of the people on this board, I consider myself to be a hobbyist. With that mindset, I have studied up on aspects of this hobby that interest me. I’ve been keeping salt water aquariums since I was 12 years old and my parents were stationed in Hawaii. I used to collect critters and bring them home. I’m now 38 and over the years have learned things through experiencing both success and failure. I find it hearbreaking and frustrating to lose an animal in my system, therefore I’ve studied up and tried to learn best practices to be successful in the long term care and health of my critters. I don’t claim to know everything, nor do I claim that I have even most of the answers. There are some very, very smart and experienced people here on the board (Joe Yaiullo…goes by JustJoe here on the board who maintains public aquariums,), Phil Henderson, (Phender here on the board) is a science teacher in California and is quoted and referenced in many books about anemones and clownfish, Rod Buehler, (Rod’s Food fame, breeder of Rod’s Onyx Percula clowns, and the only person I know who has personally kept an S gigantea anemone for well over a decade)…goes by his name here on the board, I have absolutely NO idea what the real life names of Bonsai Nut, Marina P, or delphinus are here on the board, or what they do for a living, but they are extremely knowledgeable and experienced. These are just a fraction of the “talent pool” here on the board. There are many, many more here whom I cant think of just at this moment...all of whom happen to be much more knowledgeable and experianced than me.

Since it is cheaper for you and anyone else here on the board who bothers to read my posts to learn from my mistakes vs. repeating them for yourself, I feel that sharing my knowledge and experiences is a good way to further this hobby. With that in mind, I wasn’t intending to “correct” your “errors” but rather to point out that you were misinformed.

Up above you refer to “sick” anemones. I referred to weakened anemones. I live in St Louis MO. For me to receive any anemone, its been shipped all over the place and is in a severely weakened state. In many cases they are sick from disease as well. My point was that adding clownfish to an anemone in either a sick, or a weakened state, (or both) before it has a chance to get healthy, can be detrimental to the anemone. I explained how and why I came to this conclusion. By all means, feel free to disregard any and all of my comments or posts and do as you see fit with your aquarium and your critters. I wish you nothing but success in your endeavors.

With regard to the link you provided…I hope it wasn’t written with input from one or two Marine Biologists, because there is very little information in that article, and the list of clownfish and their host anemones in the wild is incorrect.

Here is a list of online articles you can read at your leisure and a list of books you might want to check out at the library or purchase on your own:

Here is an online abridged version of the book DNAK recommended above.
FIELD GUIDE TO ANEMONE FISHES AND THEIR HOST SEA ANEMONES (http://www.nhm.ku.edu/inverts/ebooks/intro.html)

http://www.reefs.org/library/article/r_toonen8.html

http://www.breedersregistry.org/anemonesurveyresults.htm

http://www.netpets.org/fish/reference/reefref/heter.html

http://www.amazon.com/Reef-Aquarium-Vol-Comprehensive-Identification/dp/1883693136/ref=pd_ys_sf_s_283155_b2_15_p

http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Coral-Reef-Aquarium-v/dp/3928819232/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1342058232&sr=1-6

http://www.amazon.com/Field-Guide-Anemone-Fishes-Anemones/dp/073098365X/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1342058295&sr=1-4&keywords=Daphne+G.+Fautin

http://www.amazon.com/Anemone-Fishes-Their-Host-Anemones/dp/1564651185/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1342058295&sr=1-3&keywords=Daphne+G.+Fautin

To be honest with you, these books and links are a good start when it comes to learning about anemones, but the best source of knowledge you’re going to find is right here on the web.

Best of luck to you.

Nick

Finsky

07/14/2012, 04:22 PM

Finsky,
I am not now, nor have I been or claimed to be a Marine Biologist. I have taken Marine Biology in both high school and in college, but that’s about the extent of my formal education in it. Like you and 95% of the rest of the people on this board, I consider myself to be a hobbyist. With that mindset, I have studied up on aspects of this hobby that interest me. I’ve been keeping salt water aquariums since I was 12 years old and my parents were stationed in Hawaii. I used to collect critters and bring them home. I’m now 38 and over the years have learned things through experiencing both success and failure. I find it hearbreaking and frustrating to lose an animal in my system, therefore I’ve studied up and tried to learn best practices to be successful in the long term care and health of my critters. I don’t claim to know everything, nor do I claim that I have even most of the answers. There are some very, very smart and experienced people here on the board (Joe Yaiullo…goes by JustJoe here on the board who maintains public aquariums,), Phil Henderson, (Phender here on the board) is a science teacher in California and is quoted and referenced in many books about anemones and clownfish, Rod Buehler, (Rod’s Food fame, breeder of Rod’s Onyx Percula clowns, and the only person I know who has personally kept an S gigantea anemone for well over a decade)…goes by his name here on the board, I have absolutely NO idea what the real life names of Bonsai Nut, Marina P, or delphinus are here on the board, or what they do for a living, but they are extremely knowledgeable and experienced. These are just a fraction of the “talent pool” here on the board. There are many, many more here whom I cant think of just at this moment...all of whom happen to be much more knowledgeable and experianced than me.

Since it is cheaper for you and anyone else here on the board who bothers to read my posts to learn from my mistakes vs. repeating them for yourself, I feel that sharing my knowledge and experiences is a good way to further this hobby. With that in mind, I wasn’t intending to “correct” your “errors” but rather to point out that you were misinformed.

Up above you refer to “sick” anemones. I referred to weakened anemones. I live in St Louis MO. For me to receive any anemone, its been shipped all over the place and is in a severely weakened state. In many cases they are sick from disease as well. My point was that adding clownfish to an anemone in either a sick, or a weakened state, (or both) before it has a chance to get healthy, can be detrimental to the anemone. I explained how and why I came to this conclusion. By all means, feel free to disregard any and all of my comments or posts and do as you see fit with your aquarium and your critters. I wish you nothing but success in your endeavors.

With regard to the link you provided…I hope it wasn’t written with input from one or two Marine Biologists, because there is very little information in that article, and the list of clownfish and their host anemones in the wild is incorrect.

Here is a list of online articles you can read at your leisure and a list of books you might want to check out at the library or purchase on your own:

Here is an online abridged version of the book DNAK recommended above.
FIELD GUIDE TO ANEMONE FISHES AND THEIR HOST SEA ANEMONES (http://www.nhm.ku.edu/inverts/ebooks/intro.html)

http://www.reefs.org/library/article/r_toonen8.html

http://www.breedersregistry.org/anemonesurveyresults.htm

http://www.netpets.org/fish/reference/reefref/heter.html

http://www.amazon.com/Reef-Aquarium-Vol-Comprehensive-Identification/dp/1883693136/ref=pd_ys_sf_s_283155_b2_15_p

http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Coral-Reef-Aquarium-v/dp/3928819232/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1342058232&sr=1-6

http://www.amazon.com/Field-Guide-Anemone-Fishes-Anemones/dp/073098365X/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1342058295&sr=1-4&keywords=Daphne+G.+Fautin

http://www.amazon.com/Anemone-Fishes-Their-Host-Anemones/dp/1564651185/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1342058295&sr=1-3&keywords=Daphne+G.+Fautin

To be honest with you, these books and links are a good start when it comes to learning about anemones, but the best source of knowledge you’re going to find is right here on the web.

Best of luck to you.

Nick

Golly. I am glad you are around to identify misinformation.

Since I am misinformed according to you, I hesitate to share my knowledge and/or experiences with you or any of your "numberous?" devotes.

Hogwash, semantics, sick/weaked, is not my game, as I work in a different field than English Language Arts. I was talkiing about one and the same when I referred to "sick". An anemone that is not healthy.

Today I did my weekly anemone feeding of razor clam and silverside . I usually break up into small pieces any razor clam I have left after feeding half inch pieces to my anemones with plastic tongs. My female Tomato clown took one of those small bite sized pieces into her mouth and then spit it out. She did not bring that back to her anemone to keep it safe and eat it later? Could there be "any" truth to the possibility that a clownfish will feed its host anemone?

I also feed my fish with Vita-Chem soaked food three times a week with the weekly dosage required for a 125 gallon tank. I also feed the corals, invertebrates, and polyps Kent Marine Phytoplex, Chromoplex, Zooplex, and Microvert twice per week. The these liquid foods and vitamins perk up my anemones.

Good luck and I wish you success in your world of "correcting" what you thought/think is misinformation.

When you assume, you make and ?*$3 out of you and me.

maxxII

07/14/2012, 05:30 PM

Golly. I am glad you are around to identify misinformation.

Since I am misinformed according to you, I hesitate to share my knowledge and/or experiences with you or any of your "numberous?" devotes.

Hogwash, semantics, sick/weaked, is not my game, as I work in a different field than English Language Arts. I was talkiing about one and the same when I referred to "sick". An anemone that is not healthy.

Today I did my weekly anemone feeding of razor clam and silverside . I usually break up into small pieces any razor clam I have left after feeding half inch pieces to my anemones with plastic tongs. My female Tomato clown took one of those small bite sized pieces into her mouth and then spit it out.

I was wondering why she did not bring that back to her anemone to keep it safe and eat it later?

Could there be "any" truth to the possibility that a clownfish will feed its host anemone?

Good luck and I wish you success in your world of "correcting" what you thought/think is misinformation.

When you assume, you make and ?*$3 out of you and me.

Wow….

I’ve never claimed to know it all. In fact, just the opposite.
I don’t have devotees…If anything, the folks I mentioned previously are people I look up, certainly not the other way around.

The reason semantics are important in a discussion like this is because it prevents misunderstanding.

Misunderstanding and confusion about semantics in a discussion where drugs and antibiotics are being used to treat an animal in our care, should be avoided whenever possible.

Weakened is NOT the same thing as sick. There is a reason I’m pointing out the difference between the two.

Cloramfenicol is a broad spectrum antibiotic that can cause serious side effects in humans, it shouldn’t used unnecessarily. If an anemone is sick with a bacterial infection, then its use or other antibiotics is indicated. If the anemone is weakened but not sick, use of antibiotics is not indicated and may cause more harm than good.

I have no idea why your clown did not bring the razor clam piece back to your anemone…maybe she didn’t like it and saw no need to try and defend it from other fish in the tank?

Could there be any possibility that clownfish will feed a host anemone? Sure. It’s doubtful however, as this behavior hasn’t been documented in the wild and is seen only in an aquarium. If it were a natural ingrained behavior, wouldn’t it be seen in the wild as well?

I’m not sure why you’re resorting to personal attacks in response to my posts. It does nothing to prove your point and makes you look like overly sensitive and uninformed. None of my posts were a personal attack towards you. Why you chose to take them that way is beyond me.

I was correcting what most definitely incorrect information. There is no argument regarding that. I’m not the only one who noticed it either.

My posts here are based on experience. I even linked to a thread documenting my experiences and results. So far, you’ve posted a link to a blog that has incorrect information that doesn’t bolster your case in any way. I can back up what I’m stating and have done so.

Based solely on what I’ve seen you post here on this thread, you don’t need my help to make an @$$ out of yourself, you’re doing just fine on your own.

I’m done derailing this thread. If you’d like to carry on the discussion whether or not clowns actively feed their host anemones or whether or not adding clowns to a weakened or sick anemone is the best practice to get the anemone back to health, feel free to start a thread about it. I’ll be happy to join in and discuss it with you there. Further arguing here detracts from the thread as a whole and all the information contained in it.

Finsky

07/15/2012, 10:27 AM

Wow….

I’ve never claimed to know it all. In fact, just the opposite.
I don’t have devotees…If anything, the folks I mentioned previously are people I look up, certainly not the other way around.

The reason semantics are important in a discussion like this is because it prevents misunderstanding.

Misunderstanding and confusion about semantics in a discussion where drugs and antibiotics are being used to treat an animal in our care, should be avoided whenever possible.

Weakened is NOT the same thing as sick. There is a reason I’m pointing out the difference between the two.

Cloramfenicol is a broad spectrum antibiotic that can cause serious side effects in humans, it shouldn’t used unnecessarily. If an anemone is sick with a bacterial infection, then its use or other antibiotics is indicated. If the anemone is weakened but not sick, use of antibiotics is not indicated and may cause more harm than good.

I have no idea why your clown did not bring the razor clam piece back to your anemone…maybe she didn’t like it and saw no need to try and defend it from other fish in the tank?

Could there be any possibility that clownfish will feed a host anemone? Sure. It’s doubtful however, as this behavior hasn’t been documented in the wild and is seen only in an aquarium. If it were a natural ingrained behavior, wouldn’t it be seen in the wild as well?

I’m not sure why you’re resorting to personal attacks in response to my posts. It does nothing to prove your point and makes you look like overly sensitive and uninformed. None of my posts were a personal attack towards you. Why you chose to take them that way is beyond me.

I was correcting what most definitely incorrect information. There is no argument regarding that. I’m not the only one who noticed it either.

My posts here are based on experience. I even linked to a thread documenting my experiences and results. So far, you’ve posted a link to a blog that has incorrect information that doesn’t bolster your case in any way. I can back up what I’m stating and have done so.

Based solely on what I’ve seen you post here on this thread, you don’t need my help to make an @$$ out of yourself, you’re doing just fine on your own.

I’m done derailing this thread. If you’d like to carry on the discussion whether or not clowns actively feed their host anemones or whether or not adding clowns to a weakened or sick anemone is the best practice to get the anemone back to health, feel free to start a thread about it. I’ll be happy to join in and discuss it with you there. Further arguing here detracts from the thread as a whole and all the information contained in it.

You have my apology as sometimes it is difficult to communicate via the written word versus spoken word. Sometimes I write before thinking when excited about things i.e. all things aquarist. I am sure you are a decent person and I get the impression, an advanced aquarist. I do want to apologize again to you and this thread and hope you will forgive me.

I would like to add my reason for listing the liquid foods and vitamins is that I think this may be a route to go with a weakened anemone that is not up to taking solid foods. Of course, the aquarist would obviously want to keep an eye on water quality.

I do think that lighting, current, water quality, placement i.e. rock versus substrate, feeding, etc. all have a part in an anemones health.

For myself, I have found Heteractis magnifica to be the most difficult anemone to care for.

For my Stichodactyla gigantea, I prepared a tennis sized vertical hole in the middle of my live rock underneath the right 150 watt metal halide. At the bottom of the five inch hole was smooth live rock. The bottom of the hole went horizontally off to the left. I moved a green bubble tip from that place by using a frozen block of razor clam to losen it's grip. I then moved it to the left side of the tank in a crevice in the live rock above the two green and two red rose Bubble Tips(used to be one of each until the green and red split) that were also there. Almost instantly the Tomato clowns started nudging it gently and now it is doing much better than the right side.

This left a place for me to place a six inch Stichodactyla gigantea I aquired from Petco. I turned off the pumps and after acclimating guided the anemone down over the hole. It stuck rather quickly and at first was anchored half on the inner side of the hold and half of the bottom of the hole. I has since spread out to cover the entire width of the hold and has grown to about eight inches or more.

I have two 3,250 gph Hydor Mag 8's which are place high in the tank ends. This creates a circulation that is high at the surface and lessens gradually towards the bottom of the tank. Lighting is a 60" Marine Pro Lighting System with four 54 watt T-5's and two 150 watt double ended metal halides.

I do agree that it is possible that an anemone may not be up to hosting a clownfish and may not even be able to "anchor" itself to substrate and/or rock.

Addendum: My female Tomato clownfish did bring one of two Hikari Algae wafers into the larger red rose buble tip anemone?

maxxII

07/15/2012, 11:49 AM

You have my apology as sometimes it is difficult to communicate via the written word versus spoken word. Sometimes I write before thinking when excited about things i.e. all things aquarist. I am sure you are a decent person and I get the impression, an advanced aquarist. I do want to apologize again to you and this thread and hope you will forgive me.

I would like to add my reason for listing the liquid foods and vitamins is that I think this may be a route to go with a weakened anemone that is not up to taking solid foods. Of course, the aquarist would obviously want to keep an eye on water quality.

I do think that lighting, current, water quality, placement i.e. rock versus substrate, feeding, etc. all have a part in an anemones health.

For myself, I have found Heteractis magnifica to be the most difficult anemone to care for.

For my Stichodactyla gigantea, I prepared a tennis sized vertical hole in the middle of my live rock underneath the right 150 watt metal halide. At the bottom of the five inch hole was smooth live rock. The bottom of the hole went horizontally off to the left. I moved a green bubble tip from that place by using a frozen block of razor clam to losen it's grip. I then moved it to the left side of the tank in a crevice in the live rock above the two green and two red rose Bubble Tips(used to be one of each until the green and red split) that were also there. Almost instantly the Tomato clowns started nudging it gently and now it is doing much better than the right side.

This left a place for me to place a six inch Stichodactyla gigantea I aquired from Petco. I turned off the pumps and after acclimating guided the anemone down over the hole. It stuck rather quickly and at first was anchored half on the inner side of the hold and half of the bottom of the hole. I has since spread out to cover the entire width of the hold and has grown to about eight inches or more.

I have two 3,250 gph Hydor Mag 8's which are place high in the tank ends. This creates a circulation that is high at the surface and lessens gradually towards the bottom of the tank. Lighting is a 60" Marine Pro Lighting System with four 54 watt T-5's and two 150 watt double ended metal halides.

I do agree that it is possible that an anemone may not be up to hosting a clownfish and may not even be able to "anchor" itself to substrate and/or rock.

Addendum: My female Tomato clownfish did bring one of two Hikari Algae wafers into the larger red rose buble tip anemone?

Finsky,
Communicating via written word over the net can be interesting to say the least. Its very easy to misunderstand what a person meant when reading their posts. Over 80% of human communication is via non verbals such as tone, inflection, and body language.

Short version is no problem on my end, apology accepted.

You bring up some interesting points in this post.

I’ve never tried adding vitamins or liquid foods when trying to bring back a weakened anemone. What vitamins or liquid foods are you using or advocating? I honestly am not up to date on what vitamins or liquid foods are currently popular or available, so your input here would be greatly appreciated, (seriously).

I also agree completely that water quality and general conditions of the system the anemone is being kept in are all paramount to anemone health and well being.

I’ve only tried S. gigantea once. A local store that I have a good relationship with had one come in that started to go down hill and they asked me to try and rescue it with the understanding that if it survived, I would buy it. Sadly, it didn’t.

IMO, (based on what I’ve read), S. gigantea is the most difficult anemone to keep. The fact that you obtained yours from Petco of all places and have had it for 6 months speaks volumes.

I’m also very intrigued by how you set up the place for the gigantea to attach.

Rather than derail this thread any further, could you please start a new thread and detail everything you’ve done and pictures of your anemones and set up?

I’d love to keep an S. gigantea some day but feel I need to do more research and would love to see what your doing.

Thanks,

Nick

Finsky

07/16/2012, 09:38 PM

Finsky,
Communicating via written word over the net can be interesting to say the least. Its very easy to misunderstand what a person meant when reading their posts. Over 80% of human communication is via non verbals such as tone, inflection, and body language.

Short version is no problem on my end, apology accepted.

You bring up some interesting points in this post.

I’ve never tried adding vitamins or liquid foods when trying to bring back a weakened anemone. What vitamins or liquid foods are you using or advocating? I honestly am not up to date on what vitamins or liquid foods are currently popular or available, so your input here would be greatly appreciated, (seriously).

I also agree completely that water quality and general conditions of the system the anemone is being kept in are all paramount to anemone health and well being.

I’ve only tried S. gigantea once. A local store that I have a good relationship with had one come in that started to go down hill and they asked me to try and rescue it with the understanding that if it survived, I would buy it. Sadly, it didn’t.

IMO, (based on what I’ve read), S. gigantea is the most difficult anemone to keep. The fact that you obtained yours from Petco of all places and have had it for 6 months speaks volumes.

I’m also very intrigued by how you set up the place for the gigantea to attach.

Rather than derail this thread any further, could you please start a new thread and detail everything you’ve done and pictures of your anemones and set up?

I’d love to keep an S. gigantea some day but feel I need to do more research and would love to see what your doing.

Thanks,

Nick

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=20472231#post20472231