Phosphates and HA, need tried and true advice!

[travis32]

O.k. Well, it's day 3 going on day 4, of having 4 fish in the 125g mixed with the corals and some small cuc.

I am in the process as previously mentioned starting a ATS. Or hoping it's in the works of starting. 2 2700k 40 watt CFL bulbs pointed at 2 canvas sheets in the sump, should be doing the trick.

Assuming the ATS will work to remove phosphates. What can I do to control algae in the DT? Remember I'm reusing dead rock. As soon as the rock established itself in this tank, algae blooms started immediately. I don't mean just brown algae. Yes that covered the rocks, sand and glass. That's slowly going away. Now, some bubble algae is coming in, and the rock on the left side is growing a lot of hair algae and the rock on the right side is almost completely free of hair algae. Some hair algae is growing in on the SPS chalaces. I hand wiped them off.

But, What do I do to control HA. I tested phosphates. With all the algae and HA blooming on the rock, my phosphates are tested at .5. So, that means that if the HA is consuming some of the phosphates throughout the tank, my phosphates must be at 1 or higher.

What's an economical solution to starve the HA? I only run my halides about 9 hours a day and I alternate which ones are one during that 9 hours. The two outer 250w lights are only on from 5 - 10 pm, and the 400w middle halide is only on from 1-5 pm. The 2 VHO actinics bulbs are on from 1-10 pm.

I'm assuming the phosphates are detrimental to the SPS, not to mention the HA is annoying. Do I just get a good vegie eating tang and let him go to work on it all?

I'm not running a GFO reactor because I'm hoping the ATS will take care of it, but that takes weeks to get started. (If I'm even doing it right.)

So, what do I do in the mean time? Skimmer is working and going to fill up fast it looks like (probably be close to full of dark liquid in under 5 days. It's almost half full after 2 days of running).

Any suggestions on nipping this in the bud as fast as I can would be appreciated. I do also have a chaeto ball growing as well. I stuck that in the DT for now to form a pod population in the DT and to provide some refuge from the light for my betta as well as to try to suck some of the phosphates out of the DT. I'll move it to the sump as it gets bigger.

I know there's many philosophies on controlling HA and phosphates. I need what is tried and true and works to get the phosphates out of the rock with one condition --- 1. I will not pull the rock to cook it.. I just got everything going, I don't want to start over again. I realize that's probably the best solution, And maybe I could take a few out at a time, but, I just don't want to mess with that at this point in time. Any other suggestions for in - tank solutions are greatly appreciated!!!

[Hemlock71]

Did you you cycle this tank? Does day 3 going on 4 mean you just set up the tank??

[reefgeezer]

It sounds like you are trying to start an ATS is one location when you already have a competing ATS in the DT. It just won't work. How did that level of phosphates in the tank? The answer to that question will determine what you should do.

My best guess is that it is leaching from the reused rock. It could take a while for that to cease. If that is the case, there's not much you can do except harvest the algae regularly, use a lot of GFO and change it often, and just wait it out since you have already vetoed the best solution.

[travis32]

Hemlock, yes, the rock was cycled separate from the tank. well, the rock was cycled before I got the tank. It went through 8.0ppm ammonia spike when my 55g tank crashed due to a limewater overdose. I moved 70% of the rock to a tub of fresh salt water as soon as the ammonia topped out at 8.0. I lost all my corals, hundreds of asterinas. etc.

I scrubbed the rock down in WC water. I then took the rock and placed it in fresh RODI salt water in a rubbermade tub. No light. Had a heater set to 80 degrees, and salt at 1.027.

I also kept some rock in the DT, mainly because I ran out of room in the tub and I knew I was going to have to store some corals from the previous owner of the 125. So, I kept 40% of my rock in the 55 to cycle it there.

Oddly enough, the rock that cycled in the 55g tank, I realized today is on the right side of my 125g. (I took it out last as I used the tub rock to fill the 125g and cycle it again until I was confident I could move the rock from the 55g and the corals at the same time.)

SO with all that said, 80% of the rock I have now is from my 55g tank that was 9 months in that tank. I never ran GFO. So, I'm assuming it absorbed a lot of phosphates in that tank. It leached up to .5 phosphates in the tub, and ammonia hit 2.0 in the tub.

The tank cycled faster from 8.0ppm down to zero than the rock in the tub. It was at .25 when the tank was at zero. Anyways, the point being, the rock is majorly majorly cycled.

The rock I moved to the 125g, I cycled one more time. Place 3 cubes of mysis shrimp (frozen) and some freeze dried cyclopeez. to cycle it one more time with the rock. the nitrites were detected at .1 - .2 and the next day nitrites and ammonia were both zero with no nitrates. I waited one more week and then moved the corals over.

So the 125g has been operational for about 2 -3 weeks. And has had fish for 3 days. The rock was cycled for around 6-7 weeks without any fish in with the tank.

So, running GFO, do I need to run that in a reactor of some sort, a filter sock? I haven't necessarily vetoed the best solution, just finding out if there's alternatives. If GFO is the only alternative, I'll try that first. If I don't see any results in a month or two from that, then, I'll have no choice, but, to pull a few rocks at a time and cook them. It'll suck, but, as you mentioned there may not be any good alternatives, except to dry the rock out and replace it with dry rock over time.

Not sure that would solve it though, because the new rock would just absorb the phosphates I suppose.

[Hemlock71]

I think the best thing to do would be to run GFO I use brs reactors, one for gfo-High Capacity and the other one for GAC-Rox0.8 They work well for me and keep the po4 down
I would run the gfo-hc and change amount weekly if needed (upon testing)to get it under control and the ATS starts to kick in.

[bertoni]

There are a lot of possible approaches. You could keep the main tank dark while lighting the ATS, or you could run a lot of GFO, or both. I'd likely run at least some GFO, and consider spending a few minutes each day pruning what hair algae was easy to get (if any).

[travis32]

I'm not 100% convinced it's even HA in the traditional sense. I'm 90% convinced it is. ;)

It's weird because there's a layer of brown stuff on most of the rocks. (light brown). And then there's very short grassy green strands coming up through the light brown stuff. Reminds me of Chia pets somehow. Each rock is it's very own chia pet. ;)

Thanks for the suggestions. I see the reactors aren't too epensive except I have to get the pump too and the GFO granules. So, probably end up being another $80 - 100 with shipping.

Was hoping to avoid that cost for now, but, I know this is something that needs to be nipped ASAP. Would running the sump lights over night and into the morning say like 10pm to 11 am, encourage growth in the sump, or would that just be offset by the light being off in the sump when the more powerful DT lights are on? I suppose I answered my own question...

The other thing is it looks like my ATO is not functional, GRR. It dumped my 5 gallong bucket of top off limewater into the sump over night last night and the sump level was up to the second float switch almost. (thankfully it didn't kick on until the sump level was really low, then it just dumped everything off.

I tested the Top off this morning and the pump still runs with the sump level up to the second float switch. So I didn't refill the top off bucket. I've emailed autotopoff.com as I've had the floatch switches for less than a year and 2 year warranty.. Looks like daily manual top offs for a week or two.. :(

On another note. My bad salt batch from IO that had MG level of 500, is going to be replaced at no charge by IO. I just have to send 2 cups of salt in for them to test.
So a free 5 gallon pale of salt should last me a while now.

Anyways, I'll start by getting a GFO reactor orderred. I have the feeling the rock will be leaching phosphates probably for a year or two as the die off would have leached phosphates into the rock at most likely extremely high levels. Plus, feedings and livestock adding phosphates into the water, it's going to be a never ending battle.

[travis32]

Grr. Well, BRS is out of anything GFO granule related. They have the pellets. and the $800 gallon bucket of High capacity granules still in stock.. Yaay..

I'd like to get everything from one place so I only pay one shipping charge rather than 2 or 3.

[reefgeezer]

Too bad. BRS is usually #1 in my book. Reactors are pretty cheap/easy to build and there are plently of instructions how on the web. Maybe you can go that route and use some GFO from local stock until BRS can stock back up.

[reefgeezer]

$50 gets you a 120 VAC Liquid level controller and soleniod from mamastercarr. com to control your top system. No more float switch failures. Simply wire the LLC and solenoid in series using a lamp cord and run you supply water through the solenoid to your sump. Done. I'll look up the part numbers if you are interested.

[chuckreef]

Reefgeezer,

I'm intersted if you have more info on the part #s.

[travis32]

Cool on the top off. the switches have a 2 year warranty, so I'm waiting to see what they'll do. If they just send me new replacements, I'd be o.k. with that. But, yeah, this would be a good route. I paid $50.00 for the current switches with a 2 year warranty.

I'll see what they come back with. I'd be interested in the part numbers for future reference. I may need to do that eventually.

[reefgeezer]

ATO Parts List from mcmasterCarr.Com:

Polypropylene Liquid Level Switch, Low Amperage, 1/2" NPT Internal Thread, P/N 46515K43, $24.62

Delrin Solenoid Valve, NORMALLY CLOSED, 120 VAC, Low Amperage, 1/4" QD Inlet/Outlet, P/N 7876K13, $42.48

The solenoid has gone way up. However, I still think it's a good deal. Mine has ran without a hitch for two years. I forget about it unless I hear the little click that indicates the solenoid has opened. This set-up keeps my sump level really stable when combined with a gravity feed reservior. I even had it feeding a kalk reactor for a year or so without a hiccup.

This was not my idea originally so I don't want to appear to take credit for it. I'd like to because it works well and is pretty simple. I found it at wichitaaquariumclub.com. Sorry, I don't know how to create links. Many other/cheaper solenoids may work just as well.

[travis32]

I'm not sure I understand how this works? So there's no pumps involved, you just use siphoning. I'm just wondering if it would work for me or not? Currently I use a 5gallon bucket for topping off with a small pump that uses half inch hose to pump the kalkwater.

Virtually maintenance free other than the float switch.

I'm not sure I understand the setup.

[reefgeezer]

We're kind highjacking the thread, I'll start a new one about the ATO.

[travis32]

Heh.. Hijacking my own thread.. That's a new one. ;)

Thanks reef. I have ordered the BRS reactor. I ordered a small 450 grams, of gfo pellets to use with it. I also ordered a Maxijet 1200 to power the reactor. Hopefully all the connections come with it.

So, I'm looking forward to the difference this will make. I saw some reviews that indicated they saw differences in 24 hours. I'm expecting it will take a few weeks to show true night and day differences.

I'll take pre and post reactor pics. So far, most of the corals don't seem distressed. All the LPS are doing great. There's a brain that had died in the previous owners hands and started regrowing, and now it's about to have reclaimed the entire skeleton of the previous brain (about 4 - 5" around, only problem is the brain lost it's color under my PC light and hasn't gotten much color back, but it's growing...lol). Another brain I have the same thing happened where all that was left was a micro brain and the skeleton of the previous brain, after a few feedings, it is coming back and reclaiming around 40% of the previous skeleton and growing.

The chalaces, I have no idea how to tell if they're growing or not or heck, even if they're doing o.k. or not. They kept their color under the PC light and are very large and great show pieces. One is bowl shaped and a rusty orange color. It's awesome. I have no clue how to tell if it's o.k. or not though.

[reefgeezer]

Heh.. Hijacking my own thread.. That's a new one. ;)

Sorry, I didn't realize you started the thread. You can wire in a small pump instead of the solenoid. You just need to make sure the pump requires less amperage than the Liquid Level Switch is rated. This will allow you to keep the RO/DI resrevoir at or below your sump level. It will also save you from buying the $48 solenoid. The down side is that you sump level may change just a little more and the pump may switch on and off when the sump level is right the spot where the switch connection is made.

[Tbduval]

travis32- What is PH and ALK level? I don't recall if you posted that info. I agree that PO4 plays a major part, but excessive CO2 can help HA thrive. Everytime I have seen a major HA problem, PH seems on the low side. Maybe check you PH right before lights turn on and once in the day.

[travis32]

The previous owner of my 125 for got to bring the connection for the PH Probe for the reef keeper 2 from digital aquatics. so he is mailing that to me. I was going to wait for that from him rather than using test kits, since I'm out of PH tests. Alk has been consistantly running on the low side despite what seems like excessive dosing of alk. I've got kalk going in my ATO (which I seemingly may have gotten to work last night, I'll monitor).

The Kalk is keeping my Ca at around 420. The alk I've measured daily at 2.0 meq/l each time I test. Which is lower than I want it. I've been adjusting slowly by dosing BRS Soda ash. I've been slowly increasing that dosage. So far, the next day alk is down to 2.0 meq/l. (I don't test right after dosing, I probably should).

MG is low though at 1150-1180. I'm awaiting my shipment of MGCL from BRS, which just arrived today. I'll be slowly raising that to at least 1300. (had a bad batch of IO salt.)

Your theory on carbon though is interesting. I exhaust my DI resin extremely fast. After approximately 150 gallons I see TDS creap up to 2 or 3. After 200 gallons I start seeing it rise from 4 to 10 fairly quickly. It comes out of the RO at 45 and into the RO at 880-900.

I spoke to thefilterguys about the quick exhaustion of DI reson. They said there's two main causes of that: 1. Low PH incoming water, and 2. High carbon content of source water.

So, could those issues make it through the RO and DI resin and into the aquarium?

PH On my 55g when I just used RO water always stayed right in the middle at around 8.2. My QT when I perform Hypo would drop to 7.8 at it's lowest point. Both were before I implemented DI filtration.

[Tbduval]

Here's a good read for RO's

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/rhf/index.php#8

Let's see if I can remember this here. Let's say your ALK is at 2.0 meq/l with a PH 7.9. Your tank tank water would contain roughly 1.8 times the amount of CO2. If your PH is 8.2, it would roughly contain 0.8 times the amount of CO2. You can verify this by taking a cup of water outside with an airstone for an hour or so to see PH goes up. If thats the case........ you can try to vent the CO2 out of the tank (which maybe hard inside an air tight house) or the ALK maybe increased to help drive it out.

Now with saying this. ALL live stock in the tank is more important, IMO, then trying to hit these numbers. If you decided to drive you ALK up, which I would, do it slowly over time. Days....weeks.....not overnight.

Just my thoughts!

[Tbduval]

Just to add. Getting you CO2 to 1 or under may help in your battle with HA, along with PO4 and NO3 reduction. Trying to starve out all food sources will help in a major way.

bertoni- Does this make sense for CO2? It's been a long since school!!!!

[travis32]

Well, the first step to starving it is to eliminate phosphates. I noticed on my canvas screens small signs of growth of algae. I Have part of the screen sticking up out of the water in the sump and the top is pure white and the submersed part is taking on a film of color. I think it's starting to kick in.

I received my Media reactor from BRS and have it all hooked up. Initially the output valve leaked (a fast drip) I fiddled with it and then adjusted the ball valve lower and it stopped dripping, it only drips if I open the maxijet at full blast. Which is too much for the GFO pellets anyways. Now then just are at a rolling tumble.

I'm hoping this has some very noticable improvements. I only filled the cartridge halfway with pellets. It took about 1/3 of the 454gram jug I got.

I also got the MG CL I needed to raise my MG. I have that mixed and will start adding it slowly nightly. Until it raises to the 1400 or so it should be at. That should also help cut back the algae.

I'm hoping this is also just an algae cycle that will burn itself out, if not, I think I"m taking the right steps to prevent an all out algal takeover. ALthough it is close to a take over already I suppose....

[travis32]

Tonight it will be 24 hours that GFO has been in use. I think it already looked a little better this morning with the lights off. But, it might just be me. :)

One of my clowns was acting weird this morning, it was towards the top and the back wall of the tank. All by himself and hid sometimes swim vertically then right himself. I'm thinking he was just sleeping still, but, I'm not sure. he hasn't been eating much. SO, I'm a little scared he's got an infection or something. He was fine in QT. Never ate a lot, but, still ate.

But he'll go a day without eating and then pig out the next day. So, I'm not sure if they scavenger food from rocks and he's just full. or something is agitating him.

Anyways, corals and everything else are looking good. Nothing out of the ordinary with the other fish or anything.

I have the pump for the GFO in the skimmer half of the sump and the output in the DSB half of the sump by the return. I'm hoping this will prove to be a great investment.

How often do I change the GFO out or just test the output water for phosphates once a week or so? And change when they start becoming detectable?

[Tbduval]

How often do I change the GFO out or just test the output water for phosphates once a week or so? And change when they start becoming detectable?

Sounds like a good plan to test the output. If you PO4 levels are high, they GFO will deplete quite quickly. So just keep that in mind. Good luck and keep us posted.

[travis32]

K. The other thing I just noticed today since I get off work early on Fridays, is that there's natural light coming in the DT.

I noticed that one half of the tank looked like it had ahalide on because light was rippling like when the halide was on. Upon closer inspection I realized it was sunlight not halide light.

It's only shining on one corner of the tank, and that's the corner my goby has been staying in, so there isn't a huge algae outbreak there yet.

I noticed cyano starting to grow on a couple rocks. Just small pieces. But, not near the light either.

I have the drapes open to get more sunlight into the sump. I figure natural light mixed with the sump lights should help the ATS get started faster. The back of the tank is covered, but, there's a small sliver where the paper meets the aquarium frame that light can get through in the DT.

Thoughts on whether this would be adding more fuel, I like the idea of natural light fueling the ATS with supplemental lighting from me.

The cyano I'll get off one way or another. I won't let that get a hold.

[Tbduval]

Did you say the tank is young? I can't remember :confused: If so, it sound like a little new tank cycle. You should be fine. Just keep you PO4 and NO3 low. As far as natural light hitting your display tank, I don't think it is a problem but that just me. I am the casual reefer, until I know it is a problem, I don't have one.....or maybe it's called denial!:lolspin:

[travis32]

The 125g is new and has mostly new water..

The rock is ranges around 3 or 4 years old 1 year in my position (almost) and around 2 or so years in a previous owner's possession.

I reused the previous owner's sand in the DT and put 40 lbs of new sand in the Sump. Thinking now, Hindsight you know... I should have put the old sand in the sump and put the new sand in the DT> DOH!!!

The extra nutrients would have caused nice growth in the sump. or at least encouraged it.

The 125g as is is about 3- 4 weeks old.

[travis32]

So, a couple other questions..

I tested the water out of the GFO reactor, in under 24 hours of around 100grams of GFO In the BRS reactor, the output is showing .5 phosphates... Should there be any phosphates in the output of the reactor, and if I go through GFO this fast, I'll go broke buying GFO!! Not to mention I really regret buying the reactor if that's all it's going to do.

One consolation is I can just run it as a carbon reactor if nothing else.

the other good thing is my ATS is starting to get a brown and green film on it. It's very light but definately starting!!! YAAY!! Now only a month or so more and it'll Start outcompeting the DT.. Maybe?

Also the BRS reactor output leaks if I open the ball valve wide open. I'll be contacting BRS on that.

[Tbduval]

I would try slowing the flow down giving the water in the reactor for longer contact time. Then test it again. Whats the PO4 level of the tank? You may have to change out the GFO every couple of days until the PO4 gets under control. If the HA dies in the tank, it will release the nutrients back into the water. Once you are under control with PO4, it should last a lot longer.

It's weird that it is leaking. I just a BRS reactor and mine does not have that issue. I did notice on setting it up, you need to make sure all the hose are fitted right or it will leak. Try re-seating the hose on the output side, it may help.

[travis32]

I did reseat it once, I'll try it again, to see. I'll slow the flow way down then over night and see tomorrow. I'll change it out Sunday. HA is getting longer no signs of it receding yet.. (not with the light on anyways.)

There are a ton of air bubbles on everything, the rock, the hard corals, etc. I've checked and it's not bubble algae. It's clear bubbles and if you bump them they just rise to the surface and pop. I'm not sure if it's from over oxygenation? Or if the HA is releasing a lot of oxygen into the water and the oxygen collects on the rock.

[bertoni]

The bubbles could be air from the skimmer or oxygen from photosynthesis. Either makes sense to me.

[travis32]

yup that's my thoughts too thanks for the validation. I was running my skimmer wide open to get it to create skimmate. After running it wide open for a week and filling the cup about halfway with dark liquid, I noticed the foam was below the neckline of the skimmer. I had to close it half way before it would start foaming anywhere near the skim cup.. I'm taking that to mean the water is cleaner or more free of free organics.

I emailed BRS about the reactor issue. I am slowly raising MG and alk. Or trying to. I think it consumes it as fast as I raise it. But, we'll see. The HA is well established now.

I'm trying to figure out signs of resession of the HA. Will it just start falling off the rocks as it dies? Or will it remain on the rock as a discolored algae or something? Just wondering if I'm going to have to pull the rock when it starts dieing off. (I'm confident it will damnit. :) ) Or if it'll release itself into the water column. Are there snails or CUC that I should be purchasing that would help eat some of the algae growing on the rocks? Or even fish?

The Mexican snails I got are putting dents on the HA growing on the glass. Can constantly see new trails through the HA. I just want to make sure enough algae in the DT is removed to allow the ATS to get a firm hold and start out competing the DT algae. It's going to be an imbalanced battle for a while, but, the ATS is starting now.

I know I'm impatient. I'm tired of looking at green hair waiving at me. :)

[travis32]

Well, my alk tested at 1.5 meq/l. and my top off pump won't start regularly. I think it burned was damaged when it dumped everything into my sump and then ran dry for a few hours.. Now if I hit it against the bucket it will run.. But that's it.. So, because my kalk water isn't topping off regularly, my alk is getting used up and fast.

I have been supplementing with soda ash mix, but I must not be dosing enough regularly. I added a few tablespoons of raw baking soda today. On my 55g, I found supplementing with direct additions of baking soda helped it stay more steady. Even if I only did that 2 or 3 times a week, it would help keep it more stable in addition with the kalkwater.

Eventually as my economic situation improves, I'll have to actually use a doser of some type to maintain levels more evenly. This is what I can afford for now, so will stick with this.

I'm pleased with the ATS so far though. I'm hoping it starts really taking off over the next 2 weeks. This is week 1 of it starting. So, the fact there's a film on it already in 1 week, is a really good sign. :)

Still looking for any suggestions on crabs, snails, or fish types that might assist in removing (not resolve) HA on the rocks?

Thanks for following along. Just want to document my results. If you seen anything odd or strange, let me know.




I'll see if I can find one today locally. MG I've dumped another gallon of 7 1/4 MG CL and 3/4 (closer to 1 cup) MG sulfate mixed with RODI water. Let it set for a few hours, dumped half in 2 nights ago and the other half of the gallon today.

MG is showing at 1200 now on the test kit. This is a total of 2 gallons of MGCL mix. how much MG should that be in 130 gallons of water?

[The_Chad]

Phosbuster and lots of scarlet legged hermits fixed my problem then I used strictly RODI water.

[travis32]

I am strictly using RODI water TDS at most 4. The dilemma is the rock came from my previous tank where I was using 70 tds water. Which probably was o.k. but I had no nutrient export system.... Not a good way to run.

I'm thinking this is a cycle that will eventually (if I use good husbandry skills) burn itself out. I hope.

[Tbduval]

Travis32- I would try to get you ALK up to 2.5-2.6 mequ/l. I run my tank at 3.5 mequ/l with no problems at all. Do this with baking soda, as you mentioned. I really think bringing up your ALK will help battle your HA problem. It will drive out some of the excessive CO2 in the tank, which the HA is using as a major food source.

In my first reef tank I had with HA, it only took driving the ALK up to 3.5 mequ/l to get the HA under control. Once I saw I was heading in the right direction, I pruned as much out as I could.

Don't worry about getting doser or anything like that. I dosed two part for 5 years before I got a doser. The only reason reason I got a doser is my ALK was dropping too much between doses.

[travis32]

Thanks for the encouragement tbduval. this hobby can be very frustrating!! It definately has it's rewards, but, can be very frustrating. I think the clown I introduced last week has ich. I expect he'll be dead soon as well. He's using the power head to help him swim. I went against my best own intuition and decided not to QT the clown last weekend. It ate when I first got it last week, but I haven't seen it eat this weekend.

GRR! It's things like ich that make this hobby very frustrating, I had a purely clean tank devoid of all ich. All the fish had been through 5 weeks of hypo, and the DT had been devoid of fish, for at least 6 weeks. Should have been no ich whatsoever. The other clown is staying away from the seemingly not doing well one. So, either she rejected the new one as a partner or knows it's sick.

HA I'm confident I'll get under control eventually. However, Ich now is forever in my tank unless I capture all fish and let it go foul. The other fish are healthy and show no visible signs of distress or ich.

My betta came up to me for the first time since moving to the new tank. He was swimming right up to me and looking at me. Pretty cool that he's settled in. i watched him swim the full 6 feet of the tank. He's loving his new home!

I could pull the suspect clown and throw it in my QT, not sure that would make him better or worse. He may end up being food for the necarious snails.

[Tbduval]

Man that's horrible. I know the feeling. A few months ago I botched up a water change and killed all my fish but one. I have no clue how it happened, I have some reasons but can't confirm any of them being the sole reason.

I don't know if I would too much about the ich in the tank. Healthy fish can seem to fight it off pretty well, IMO. FYI, I stop replying to this thread until you tell me the HA is gone and everything is looks great!:spin3:

Thanks,
Travis

[travis32]

Thanks!! :) no prob. There's some HA attached to the candy canes that is turning brown.

Got some more snails last night and the two Mexican snails are wiping off the HA on the back glass. They have about 3 feet of glass cleaned. It's starting. Another 2 - 4 weeks I think it'll be severely declined. :)

The clown died last night. Was in the sand this morning. And my other clown has something hanging off her. (white).

I'm really sorry about all your fish dieing! Ouch!!! :( That's horrible!! Take care!! I tried to take some before pics of the HA. I hope to put up some after pics as well. ;)

I changed out the GFO today. PUt the remaining 250 - 300 grams of GFO in the canister. I'm hoping it lasts longer...

[Tbduval]

I stop replying to this thread until you tell me the HA is gone and everything is looks great!:spin3:


I meant to say I will not stop replying to this thread until everything is OK. That's what I get for a late night post.

[travis32]

No prob :). Regardless of people's responses, It's nice to journal things publicly. Someone other than me can spot something quickly that I didn't think of And if I need to I can always go back and search for my own post on something if I forgot a date of a critical fact. ;)

Looks like I have to put another order in for GFO. I used all I had left to replenish it. I may let this run for a week though. Was funny, as soon as it went into the canister full of aquarium water it sizzled. Glad there was a reaction! ;)

Well Retested alk today after focusing on clowly raising it and getting my ATO to work properly:

Alk is now at 2.5
Calcium is at 420
MG is at 1200

I pulled the canvas today to out of the sump to get a clear view of it. It is a nice filmy solid brown after 1 week of operation! The part sticking out of the water is a nice solid white. So, it's getting some growth. It's a very slow process, but slowly worth it. Especially if it saves me about $150 or more a month in GFO.

Between Friday and Today I would say the HA has grown almost an inch on established rocks. 40% of the rock has HA growing that is filled in and around 3-4" in length. 50% of the rock is completely HA free. 10% of the rock has tufts of HA but not filled in.

My wife wanted to scrap the HA off the back glass as it was annoying her so I let her. :)

That made the tank almost solid algae for ahile, Hopefully some of it relocates to the sump. And increases the competition of the algae in the sump with the algae in the DT.

The LFS felt that it could take 3 months + for the dead nutrients in the rock to be exhausted from by the HA growth. They suggested a lawnmower blenny, which is hit and miss on whether they'll actually eat HA or not. I didn't go for it.

I got a halloween crab some margarita snails and a few turbo snails.

The margarita snails seem to be heading towards the HA. So, they may help too.

I saw on live aquaria a different snail called: Spiny Star Astraea Snails. I was wondering if there's any opinions on these.

Here's the description that got me interested in getting like 50 of these (not quite, but I wouldn't turn them down if they were given to me. ;))

"Though interesting to observe in your home aquarium, the Spiny Star Astraea Snail serves a greater function of cleaning algae-covered live rock. It is very adept at keeping your aquarium clean. In fact, this small herbivore prefers to feed on nuisance hair algae, as well as cyanobacteria and diatoms. Some aquarists also report that the Spiny Star Astraea Snail actually consumes the entire hair algae structure, which helps prevent immediate further algae growth. "

I'm sure they wouldn't devour HA very quickly, but, a half dozen or dozen of them could not hurt the battle, if the claims of having a diet for HA is at all accurate.

I'm POed that my second clown appears to be dieing as well, with white things dangling from it's head. I found the goby, it's perfectly healthy and the betta is still healthy. I'll lose a second clown. This is 3 clowns total now. At $20 a pop... You know how much GFO that is? (yes, that was a joke, please laugh. :))

My wife gave it 48 hours. I give it 72. I could still pull it and isolate it. I have some ich treatment that the previous owner said he had some modicum of success with it. I could also do hypo if that doesn't work. I don't know if it's ich or not. I'm not going to invest in copper treatment right now. That would cost as much as the fish. If it dies this week, I plan to go with a black and white pair instead of orange and white. I love the black and white ones.

I'll give the tank a couple more weeks to stabilize before getting more fish. Mainly due to cost and to allow it to try to clear up some. I'm assuming the SPS corals hate the phosphates. I'm not seeing much if any growth from them. Although one frag has a lot polyps that open throughout the day, so, must be doing somewhat o.k.

Anyways, that's it for today. I'll post when the clown dies. :(:(:(

[bertoni]

If you're going to do the work of scraping off the hair algae, I'd recommend removing as much as is easy to get. That's export the nutrients in the algae. You might see some water problems if there's enough dying algae involved.

[bdbyace28]

I also experienced the algae bloom from adding dried rock. I ended up adding a refugium to clear out the phos levels but did notice that the rock wasnt cleaned off suffiiciently before I put it in. The dead organic matter from the rock spiked my nitrates for a short period which aided in the algae bloom. I know this because I tested both no2 and phos 3x in a 2 day period. You do have a high level of lighting which would increase the algae bloom intensity if a bloom occurs. I tried a few types of macro in my fuge before I settled on chaeto. It is cheap and if you get a strong stream of water running through it, it will suck up no2 and phos faster. I am a believer in natural methods of filtration. A refugium can be inexpensive if done correctly and only needs to be trimmed once a month for overgrowth.

[travis32]

I agree Aaron, I'm trying to get as much going as possible in my sump, I don't care if HA or cyano or anything grow in my sump. I must have sufficient flow in the tank because so far only a little cyano tried taking root, I got rid of it with a turkey baster and it hasn't returned.

Some of the HA is starting to turn brown in the DT. I think the increases in alk may be contributing to browner HA. I was thinking of taking the water from the tank and trying to scrub off the HA as much as possible in a bucket. Just do one rock a day and see where I get. I'm a little scare this may cause secondary die off in the rock. But, it would help keep nutrients from reentering the tank.

I'll keep updates here every other day. Thanks for the advice, I may have to order more GFO to get this completed. I agree with natural means, but there's too much nutrients in the DT for a refugium to get a strong hold. I do have some chaeto near my returns in my sump. i'm rotating it once or twice a week and it's also got light from the two CFL bulbs focussed on my ATS attempt.

[travis32]

Well, I just realized I may have made another mistake, I'm not sure if it's major or not... I saw someone said the dose of GFO is like 5 - 7 TBS for the BRS reactor.. I didn't see that anywhere. I looked ont he GFO container, the instructions for the BRS reactor, nothing said what to dose. So, I filled my BRS reator around half full, maybe closeer to 60-70% full. Is this bad?

I'm guessing it'll remove a ton of phosphates. But, I was thinking I'd go through a jug a week at this rate.. I didn't see anything that said to dose in tablespoons! Ugggh... At $20.00 a bottle I was wondering how people get it to last a month or more? The whole thing fits in the reactor...

Is there any downside to ODing on GFO other than maybe rapid phosphate removal?

[Hemlock71]

I use a cup of the HC-GFO in my brs reactor on a 160g system and change it when I see po4 rise, normally every month or so. There is a downside to doing anything too fast which you probably know already. You have to go to the brs website for instructions.

[travis32]

I agree Hemlock, that's why I'm asking, what is the impact of too much GFO? My initial suspicion is much of it will be wasted since it won't have a lot of contact with water and will instead be bunched together.. Just my initial thoughts nothing scientific to back it up. .

[Tbduval]

Travis32- I think you will be fine. Lower the PO4 too fast may cause some problems depending on which coral you keep. I have never any bad side affects from lower PO4 too quickly. I don't and never have measured the amount of GFO that I put in. I fill the BRS reactor by eye, FWIW.

On to how to get your GFO to last a month or longer. Once you lower your PO4 to an extremely low value it will last longer. How long? I guess that depends on many factors like how much you feed, how much PO4 is in the tank, etc etc. As I think about it, you might want to try liquid PO4 remover to get your values low, then use GFO to keep it there. Use this with caution and follow the instructions to the t!

If you have PO4 leaching out of your rock work, like you suspect, it might try a while to get your PO4 to remain low. This again depends on the tank.

How the HA looking? Still turning brown? Next hopefully you see white, then bye bye :uzi:

[Jstdv8]

Travis,
You don't need to get the HA under control to start your scrubber.
It just takes a little longer. what I found worked for me was manual removal of the big patches of HA while running the scrubber. Buit even without manual removal the scrubber will eventually take over. Especially with all the phos in your tank.
Mine took about 2 months from the time i started it up to the time i didn't have anymore HA in my DT. and my HA was pretty thick in spots.
Now I take other peoples HA rocks they are getting rid of becuase they can't cure the HA and putting it in my tank and letting the scrubber clean them into new beautiful rocks with no phos soaked up.
This is not an instant fix, it will take a while, but the scrubber will win out if its setup properly. the real key is LOTS of light and the proper amount of flow.
The more light you put on that screen without causing so much heat that you burn the alage the better. If the HA is really bad, id reccomend trying a T5 light setup of some sort down there if you can. The PC's will work fine, but T5's give more light to more areas with less heat.

[Jstdv8]

Also, Id take the cheato out and give it away. its competing witht eh screen just like the HA in the DT is. the less competition for nutrients the faster the screen will grow in.
If you really want to move forward with the scrubber quicker you can purchase pre grown screens online as well. inland aqautics I think is the place that sells them if I rememebr right.

[travis32]

Thanks for the info on the scrubber and liquid phos removal. I mainly want the chaeto for the pods. The sand was reused and therefore mostly dead, and the rock well everything was killed off on it. The chaeto had visible pods on it. So, I wanted a nice breading ground for them to get started in and populate my tank. I'm sure the HA now is a good home for them too. My betta likes snacking on the pods in between feedings, and eventually (if all goes well) I"d like to have a green mandarin. Whether I can get one big enough that my betta won't eat, is up in the air, but, I'd like to try one.

I realize it's competing, but, the screen is coming along quite nicely and still filling in. All good signs in my opinion. Plus with only 3 fish, and none of them are active feeders, well, I don't have a choice but to over feed and target feed.

So, the extra food will contribute to the nutrients needed by all the algae. The sand is looking almost pristine white now since getting my alk up to a steady 2.5 and getting the ATO to work as it should now. Things have stabilized and remained steady. I'm supplementing with a couple tablespoons of baking soda daily to slowly continuously raise the alk to 3.5 meq/l.

The sand is almost completely devoid of HA. The HA that was growing on it was not able to hold itself down and grow anymore. The brown algae or diatoms, whatever, is all but gone from the sand. The HA Is pretty much only on the glass and the rocks now. Some strands are white, but, It looks like there's sand or food mixed in with those strands. So, I don't think it's white from dieing. The strands that covered my Candycanes that I couldn't even pull off them, are finally gone almost, just brown and whithered. A bunch of crabs have converged on one set most covered by HA and must be devouring the nutrients.

So far, all of my steps are working well. I tested PHosphates yesterday with a red sea test kit (not sure how accurate that is.) but, it tested barely at .1 for phosphates. My API test kit had previously registered up to .5.

BRS is sending me replacement elbows for the BRS reactor. So, should take care of the leaks. ;)

My clown whom my wife bet would be dead by today is still alive. I bet it would be dead by tomorrow. So, we'll see if it surprises both of us. My wife said it's been out and about swimming around. So, it might be recovering from ich, or flukes, or whatever it had. Still not a very active eater, but, it's still alive...

[Jstdv8]

once that screen grows in you will have more pods than 6 mandarins could eat.
baby copepods though, not the larger amphipods that you probably are seeing on your cheato.

[travis32]

Awesome, another motivation. :)

[travis32]

Another quick question: What is the impact on corals and/or fish of forgetting to rinse GFO pellets before using them? I ran about a gallon of water out of the tank with the first batch of GFO. The second batch I forgot to rinse before using? 1 or 2 corals look agitated, but, I wasn't sure if it's from the GFO particulate, increased alkalinity, or sudden decreased supply of phosphates or a combination of all 3?

Most LPS look fine day and night, the soft corals aren't opening as much, just curious if anything of these paramaters would impact soft corals more than LPS or SPS?

Other than my clown, the goby and betta both are still acting "normal', eating, sand sifting, etc.

[Tbduval]

IIRC, Rowaphos does not recommend rinsing there GFO. They say it removes PO4 faster way. Which maybe the same fact with BRS GFO, since you said your PO4 is down. The softies maybe a little moody, considering they grow better in a little dirtier water or a combination of all the facts you mentioned.

I have found that soft coral are extremely hardy for the most part. Even if I try, I can't get rid of them. You might to try to slow down the pace at which you bring up your ALK. Maybe a 1/2 tablespoon in the morning, half at night instead of all at once.

Do you know what your PH is at yet? If you are using lime water and increase or ALK, I would be careful not to overshoot your PH. In most likelihood, you are still OK.

Good news on the HA! The combination of lower PO4 and less CO2 from increasing your ALK is probably playing havoc with the HA.

[travis32]

I skipped the soda dosing last night, to give it time to stabilize. I was thinking of trying your approach already, a little in the morning and a little in the evening. the tufts of HA that grew in really long and thick, are not receding yet, but everything around them is getting slightly brown or disappearing form the sand bed. So, I think it'll go in phases.

Stuff that grew in thin or on less stable surfaces such as sand and glass will disappear first, and the stuff on the rocks will probably take the longest with the larges source of nutrients.

I have some smaller coral frags in the center of where HA grew in and the HA is long enough now to block the light from the corals, so I may end up having to move them to make sure they get sufficient light. Most of the softies are on the sand bed though or lower down.

[Jstdv8]

I just reached in with my hand and pulled out the big tufts of HA that were large enough to be hand picked. This helped my screen gain a little faster hold since it was getting more of the pie.
I had to do that once a week for about 3-4 weeks until the screenw as finally going full bore and then about the 4th week the HA wasnt growing on the rock anymore.
Then shortly after that all the HA in the tank was gone (except for teh stuff on my powerheads it gets a first crack at the food i put in there so its getting its nutrients jsut fine :P)

[bertoni]

The iron particles might irritate corals, but they'll bind up fairly quickly. It's hard to say what exactly was the cause of the irritation, but I'd guess it was the dust.

Dosing GFO tends to lower alkalinity, not raise it, or do you dose alkalinity at the same time as changing the GFO.

[travis32]

I'm dosing alk through pickling lime in my ATO, and I'm dosing baking soda directly to the sump. I did between 2 and 4 tablespoons a day for around 4 days. That got it from 1.5 to 2.5 meq/l over a period of 5 days. (It got really low, probably from the GFO now that you say that.)

I'm actualy trying to raise it to 3.5 meq/l to experiment with the effects on the HA, but I don't want to put any life in danger, so I'm going to slow down the increases now, dosing a tablespoon in the morning and a tablespoon in the evening, starting tomorrow. I'm too tired to do that today. Lol. Just worked a 12 hour day...

So, I'm hoping the alk from the baking soda will raise it slightly, and the kalkwater will keep it elevated as I raise it.

So, to answer your question, I'm dosing it anytime my top off runs and the GFO is running 24 / 7.

My clown is still alive, but it doesn't visibly eat when I feed. It's been a week since I've seen it eat. It's swimming in freely in the watercolumn though. So, it would have to be eating something wouldn't? Can it survive over a week with no food? I know people theoretically can, but, fish are a lot maller than people, and it seems to have energy to swim around.

[travis32]

O.k. another quick update on progression.

Fish status: Clown has visual markings / damage to surface areas around it's head. Looks like may be where Ich or other parasites were. It had struggles swimming against a current today from the powerheads. And still isn't visibly eating. I'm expecting it to die, I'm just not sure how long it will take.

Corals: Looking good, I relocated a couple corals, stuff that wasn't opening is now opening.. Go figure, may have been a proximity issue. I still don't know how to tell if my Chalace corals are improving, doing o.k. growing, not growing.. But they're there... Everything else is still doing good, fish and corals.

HA: I pulled a ton of HA today. It was getting to be over 6" long and looking horrible, so I hand pulled it off the rocks today. I had an ingenius idea. Not sure it's good or bad... But, I put it in my sump where it would get caught on the ATS screen. Bad or good Idea? My skimmer didn't like it, it started goin a little nuts so I had to open it up some. But, I figure if the HA grows down there, then, it will be competing with itself... ;)

It's looking better, but still some HA on the rocks. I repositions some rocks and corals as I pulled the HA. Moved some stuff to the sump.

Lastly, I'm calculation that I'm going through about 2 - 3 gallons a 24 hour period in my ATO. I only am using a 5g bucket for my ATO... And that means Refilling my bucket every 2 days... Ugg! I could runa pump and hose from my 32 gallon trash can through the floor and crawl space to the aquarium. It's about a 10 foot run. Just that I"d have to drill a hole in the floor. Not something I really want to do, I could maybe put a second 5 gallon bucket under the stand. Either way. Makes it difficult to be outta town for 3 or 4 days. I'm going to be gone next Thursday to Sunday.

I'll fill the bucket tomorrow night as full as it will go and not touch it until Tuesday night, and see how empty it is.

I'm hoping it'll last at least 3 nights.

[travis32]

just retested everything. Wow. CA dropped fast... I tested it a week ago and it was at 420.

This week it was at 320.. That's with around 8 - 9 gallons of kalkwater top off!

alk: 2.5 meq/l (holding steady, trying to raise it though.. Not succeeding, maybe because the CA is out of whack.

CA: 320 (dosing CACL)

Phosphates: tested at .5 still with api test kit. With red sea test kit, .1, but the instructions indicated if under 1.0 a low range test needed to be done. I didn't perform this test with the red sea kit. API has 0, .25, and .5 and 1. So, not very precise. .5 was the color match exactly though. I checked my GFO.. it looks like it's turned into a brick.. :(

I'm not sure if I should pull it, break it up, or just leave it? Water flow isn't all that great even with the flow at max. Looks like Phosphates remaining steady at .5 and am unable to get them to come down. It's been 2 weeks with GFO running, 3 weeks with ATS running, and no change, except to manually pull HA.

[bertoni]

Calcium can't drop without alkalinity dropping, too. What's being dosed into the system? A pH buffer?

If the GFO is a brick, it needs to be replaced. The calcium carbonate will clog the surfaces.

[travis32]

kalk water, baking soda, and calcium chloride from BRS. I left it to the kalkwater to maintain the calcium, and that evidently is insufficient. I'm supplementing baking soda for the alkalinity.

[bertoni]

Okay, the numbers makes sense now. :)

[travis32]

yup, makes sense to me too strangely... I'm learning slowly... :)

I finally tested PH. Wanted to get a new test kit, because the previous owner the tank said the master test kit he had he wasn't sure of the age of it. Well, the LFS I went to only had freshwater ph test kits and the staff weren't sure if it would work on SW or not, and I didn't want to waste money. So, rather than driving all over I just came home and used the master test kit PH test.

Well, I can see why it's not that great of a test. Based on my eyes and even my wife, 8.4 and 8.8 colors look almost identical, except on the card, the 8.8 color blotch is shorter. As if the length of the color blotch somehow matters.. It's the same shade of purple to both of us.

So, the test came out a purple color which matched very closely to be tween 8.4 and 8.8.

If the test is at all accurate, I would say my ph is between 8.4 and 8.8. That's mid light cycle with the 2 250s on and the 2 VHOs on. I may test later when the MHs turn off to see what it's at. But, I definately don't think it's a low PH issue. May actually be a high ph issue!

Whish I'd get the PH probe connector from the previous owner. that would definately help. He's supposed to be mailing it.

[travis32]

Filled ATO tonight at approximately 10:45 pm on 12/18 to the brim. I will log when it is empty to determine how long 5g technically lasts. (Keep in mind this includes kalk dosing.

[kkil4life]

just read a bit of ur thread, and seems like u have quiet a few issues that ur trying to sort thru......so I thought I'd try helping you with one

ur gha......
look up my thread on the rice experiment
ur gha will be gone within a week to 10 days
if ur willing to try this, I'd definitely help you on the little tidbits, would be nice if you can document it as well

cheers

[travis32]

Thanks. Don't need to read through it all. To recap:

2 months ago:
Killed 55g and ~80lbs of rock with kalk OD.
Ammonia hit 8.0ppm
Cured rock for 2 months.
transferred rock to 125g.
Cured for another 3 weeks.

Transfered corals to 125g along with another 30lbs of rock.

let cure with no fish for another 2 weeks.

transferred 2 fish, they did fine, purchased 2 more 1 week later, 1 died of paraistes. other 3 are still doing fine.

In the meantime, HA took over the phosphate leaching rock. I hand pulled 50-60% of it and it's comeing back fiercely.

Side issues: bad batch of IO salt that I filled the tank with, Had 130-140 gallons of salt water at 1.028sg with MG at 500... GRR! Got it to 1200 where I've left it for a bit.

I'm open to documenting and trying anything that's a low cost.

Changes I've implemented:

1. BRS GFO reactor
2. Raising alk and CA.
3. keeping all params stable.
4. Started a cheap ATS concept.
5. implemented CUC to try and keep the GHA in check.
6. I'm also considering spiny star astrea snails (supposedly according to LA their primary diet is GHA).

I will be reading up on the rice experiment. At this point, I need to get phosphates under control. The rock is coming back quite nicely with tons of Coraline algae and starting to look really nice, but I want to be able to see it.. errg.

Oh and since I hand pulled the GHA. It's already grown back about half of what I pulled.

[chuckreef]

I would not put the algae back in the system. Pull it out of the system entirely, so there is a net reduction in the total phospahte held in the system.

In order to slow the GHA growth using phosphate control, you us drop the phosphate to below a certain threshold (limiting) value.

Your currrent inputs are food, makeup water and possibly some phosphate in the rock. Your current exports are skimming, GFO, and WCs. manual pulling adds a big export mechanism, but only if it is an export from the system.

IMO, adding the algae back to the system will actually add more PO4 to the water column, then not pulling it at all.

From your thread, I think you are using GFO in a maintenance mode right now, when you really need to be using it in a control mode. I would reccomend you start changing GFO every day for a week and then every two to three days until you see a noticeable demise in your algae, then you can reduce the rate of replacement of the GFO to miantenace mode.

[travis32]

How much do I change out daily of GFO. good catch on the xport. :)

I changed the GFO yesterday because I had so much in there about 1/4 of it became a brick. If I'm doing a cup of GFO a day, I'd be spening well over $100 a month just on GFO.

I haven't done any water changes yet. I'm waiting on my replacement 5g bucket of salt from IO. I may have to break down and just buy enough to get me by for a couple weeks.

I should add that the phosphates are in the rock. I had the rock in a tub in the dark for 8 weeks. Phosphates tested at .5 after being in that fresh RODI water for a 3 weeks. Fast forward to now. and 130 gallons of brand new RODI salt water (With fresh resin) And with in a month phosphates were back up to .5 with tons of GHA.

I don't feed that much for 3 fish. Just a few flakes to see that the fish visibly eat and some for the CUC. I feed twice a day to keep my betta well fed since he doesn't eat much in a single feeding.

[chuckreef]

[QUOTE=travis32;18074964]How much do I change out daily of GFO.

Your in the right range at about a cup for your 125 G tank. Adjust the volume +/- 1/2 to 1 cup as needed.

Yes, it is a bit expensive, but not so much more so than numerous 50% water changes daily, which is the old school way of dropping PO4 fast (before GFO), and its certainly easier than all those water changes.

The key is to drop the PO4 to limiting, the first target is non detect on a good test kit - but it needs to go lower really, the second target is noticeable visible decline in the algae, and then hold the PO4 that low for a while.

Dropping PO4 using GFO step is the expensive part. It can take a week or two, which means up to ten cups of GFO maybe. Then maitianing it will be the same as your doing now.

I think you may have skipped the drop it step, and right now are using GFO to maintain PO4 at a level that your hair algae likes (its thriving). You can use GFO like you are now for years and not get anywhere - so maybe its a wash if you use it more agressively up front - to get PO4 down to the limiting nutirent (for the algae) level, and then maitain it there.

[travis32]

Interesting. I actually have 6 export systems in place. Which one will win out, or all of them will equally exist?

1. GFO (albeit spent/ expired GFO based on the statement of it being in maintenance mode, vs. reduction mode. Errg)

2. ATS (Still in the process of turning brown... So, some growth, just very slow.)

3. Ball of Chaeto (moved to the sump): Doing fine, rotating every 3 or 4 days.

4. GHA in the DT sadly.

5. Water Changes when I start doing them.

6. Manual removal from the tank of the GHA.

So, with the presumption that the GFO is still doing something in maintenance mode, but limited capacity, shouldn't the chaeto ball and the ATS be picking up where the GFO leaves off? BTW: I'm changing the GFO weekly. So, not as often as it should be, but, more often than monthly.

[chuckreef]

Interesting. I actually have 6 export systems in place. Which one will win out, or all of them will equally exist?

So, with the presumption that the GFO is still doing something in maintenance mode, but limited capacity, shouldn't the chaeto ball and the ATS be picking up where the GFO leaves off? BTW: I'm changing the GFO weekly. So, not as often as it should be, but, more often than monthly.

None will "win out."
All will be useful to help maintain low levels, but you (ie.., the aquarist) have/has to actively get the levels down (to low levels) first. GFO, WCs and manual removal are the best tools for getting the PO4 burden in the system down. (Other tools include dosing (solid or liquid forms) and Lanthanum Chloride and alumina (e.g., Phosguard).

The Macro algaes will compete with the hair algae, but they won't dramtically lower PO4 to the levels of very limiting. The natural algaes will themselves begin to dye/decay when PO4 is limitng, releasing PO4 to the water column, and then they will re-utilize the released PO4 to grow again. So, untouched the Macro algaes will maintain a status quo.. They only become effective at dropping PO4 when they are actively harvested and the harvested algae is exported (removed) from the system. Assuming you don't have enough to harvest yet, they are your tools for down the road, right now you are the main agent and pulling (direct export) and WCs and GFO (chemical export) are your main tools.

[travis32]

Well, I've taken to somewhere between daily and every other day harvesting of GHA, scraping glass of algae and GHA, harvesting as much as I can out of the water column.

Obviously a lot of it still gets in the water column, but, I harvest as much as I can.

This is really funny, I'm not sure what to do about it yet... My clown wants to host (is that grammatically correct?) something desperately. it was hosting with a toadstool, (just living close to the stem, under the lips of the toadstool). It wouldn't leave the toad stool forever.

Well, I thought it was declining in health as it has moved to just hanging in a patch of long HA.. so, the last few days I've been thinning the larger patches and leaving the patch it's in, because I thought it was dieing. I haven't seen it visibly eat yet for 2 weeks now. Maybe longer..... So, his long patch was the largest patch I'd be capable of harvesting. I reached for it and he immediately came at my hand. It's an orange and white Oscelleris... The timid kind or so I thought.

So, now I'm left with a dilemma... Do i let the clown be with the HA patch for now and wait for it to simply die off? Do I chase him out, possibly stressing him out more? Wait a few weeks to see if he / she lives o.k.? For all I know she's laying eggs in the HA and I don't know it. Or she's just protecting the HA as her new home... It's really funny to see her come at me and very strong determination to chase me away.. I did it a couple times to test her.. She's very serious about it... :)

It's funny, and very ironic.. But, now, i"m left with leaving a patch of about 5" long HA for my dumb clown... ......

[bertoni]

I'd leave the clown fish alone for now, but I'm more tolerant of algae than others. I was disappointed when my last clump of hair algae died.

[travis32]

I don't mind a few patches here and there.. It was bad when my glass looked like a vertical garden.... I agree. I'm going to leave the clown alone, I might leave it to the turbos to get that patch or just leave one patch.. The back, (hard to get to) parts of the tank are covered in HA even on the sand bed, but it's that bad because I can't see it. So, it's not really that bad.. lol.

The clown's patch is right up front though. I'll see. I want to get at least one tang and a butterfly fish. one or both of those may eat some of the HA too.. At least the short strands.

Thanks for the different perspective. I don't hate the HA, I just want to be able to see the coraline on my rock. I didn't realize how much the coraline has filled in! And I don't like that the HA covers some of my SPS frags that are doing nicely. But the HA blocks the light. I've been having to move them so they aren't damaged by the HA.

[travis32]

Well, a couple quick updates. My ATO ran out this morning at 7:30am, and I filled it (5g bucket) to the rim The 18th at 10:30pm.

With that said, that equals 5 gallons in 3 days 9 hours.

I got my ph probe in the mail today. (It was wrapped well, kept in water, and the water was kept thawed in hand warmers. It actually arived completely unfroze.

I hooked it up (it may need to be calibrated), but, it's detecting at 8.38. My red sea master test kit showed ph at 8.4. So, it may be fine.

I have it in the sump where the top off is. When the top off was running, the ph climbed from 8.25 to 8.52. Now it's down to 8.38.

I guess I'm curious as to what the actual jump is in the DT though if the sump is at that level? I'm hoping not that big of a difference.