Damn closed loop plumbing is leaking :(

[Toomnymods]

Well this weekend i spent al day saturday draining my 90 gallon tank, running to the hardware store 4-5 times for various pvc parts and adapters. I had to re-locate my closed loop pump. Which is a Ampmaster 3000 to behind my tank instead of being inside the stand so i could fit a trigger system 36x14x15 sump in there..

needless to say after hrs and hrs of work my suction line to my ampmaster 3000 pump is leaking on the back side of the pvc like 1 drip a second.

any ideas of how to fix this without totally having to do this all over again?? surely someone make something you can put on the outside of pvc to stop super small leaks..

[kcress]

If you are talking glued PVC, no. I have no idea how to help you.

If you are talking threaded PVC then I've recently gone thru the closed loop wringer with 6 out of 8 joints made with Teflon tape failing.

I cleaned off all the tape and used Rectorseal 5 as directed on the can. Result: Zero leaks resulted the second time. This was on 2" fittings.

Then I made up an anti-water hammer stand pipe for our washing machine. To be clever and to have fun watching it work I made it from 1/2" clear PVC and mounted it on the wall in the laundry room. It had 3 threaded fittings. I used Teflon tape. All three leaked! I stripped the %@#$&# tape and used Rectorseal 5 on them - zero leaked.

Now that I've seen large pipe and small pipe both work correctly with Rectorseal and fail with tape, I'm done with using Teflon tape on PVC.

[viggen]

Did you put a on/off valve before and after the pump with disconnects?

If yes then sometimes you can shut the water off to the pump, drain the water, dry the pipe & just using cleaner & more glue can fix it. I do not believe the glue will work if it get's wet when not dry so I think you will need to dry it off.

If you do not have a on/off valve then looks like you need to remove it all & redo it.

Or drain the tank & cut the pipe and install the proper fittings so you can turn 2 valves & 2 disconnects to get the pump out incase there is trouble

[Toomnymods]

I have 2 unions one on the intake and one on the discharge pipe.. and also have 2 ball valves after the unions.. yes I know I did this wrong but I don't know Jack about plumbing.. lol so sick of having problems for something that should be simple.. I wish I would've put the ball valves after the unions so I could just work on it without draining the tank below the intake for the closed loop

[Milad]

If you are talking glued PVC, no. I have no idea how to help you.

If you are talking threaded PVC then I've recently gone thru the closed loop wringer with 6 out of 8 joints made with Teflon tape failing.

I cleaned off all the tape and used Rectorseal 5 as directed on the can. Result: Zero leaks resulted the second time. This was on 2" fittings.

Then I made up an anti-water hammer stand pipe for our washing machine. To be clever and to have fun watching it work I made it from 1/2" clear PVC and mounted it on the wall in the laundry room. It had 3 threaded fittings. I used Teflon tape. All three leaked! I stripped the %@#$&# tape and used Rectorseal 5 on them - zero leaked.

Now that I've seen large pipe and small pipe both work correctly with Rectorseal and fail with tape, I'm done with using Teflon tape on PVC.

you must be doing something wrong!

I make sure I do the following

1. make sure I have at least 3 wraps

2. And I tighten them really really tight, pipe wrench tight. mind you im careful if its attached to glass.

3. if you are looking at the opening of the pipe, then go clock wise. key here is i always want the end of the tape to "tighten" when I put on the connector.

(decided to take some pics to explain this one but didnt have any teflon tape near by so i used masking tape but you should get the point)

WRONG way
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2361330/Aquarium%20build/teflon%20tape/wrong.jpg
RIGHT way
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2361330/Aquarium%20build/teflon%20tape/right.jpg

as you can see when you put on the connecting piece you are going to open the Teflon tape if you did it the wrong way whereas you will tighten the Teflon tape if you did it the right way.

[Lps157]

Depending on what your intake and returns are for your CL you could get a rubber expasion plug. Can be found from 1/4" to 8" Put them in the intake and returns, cut a fix your plumbing, no tank draining.

<a href="http://s1091.photobucket.com/albums/i390/lps157/?action=view&amp;current=41beGoLt47L.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i390/lps157/41beGoLt47L.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[NanoReefWanabe]

Depending on what your intake and returns are for your CL you could get a rubber expasion plug. Can be found from 1/4" to 8" Put them in the intake and returns, cut a fix your plumbing, no tank draining.

<a href="http://s1091.photobucket.com/albums/i390/lps157/?action=view&amp;current=41beGoLt47L.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i390/lps157/41beGoLt47L.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

these should work well on both threaded and slip fittings too...i use them in pools all the time...

[kcress]

If those rubber expansion plugs expose any metal to the salt water you can't use them.

Milad; Thanks for the pictures but I've used Teflon tape for decades and know how to wrap it. Using Teflon tape on PVC threads is not even recommended by the tape makers but we all do try, (not me anymore LOL).

You take a giant risk using tape on PVC and then tightening it a lot. The tape reduces the friction dramatically so the hoop stress of the outer fitting skyrockets. The fittings can then split open, down the road, after the stress works on the joint. If you're still willing to gamble with tape you are supposed to hand tighten the joint. Then mark it and count turns and undo it. Tape it. Reassemble the joint and tighten to your original point then ONE more turn. I did this. Then tightened it another turn. Still they leaked. Another turn - still leaked. Screw that! I don't want a midnight split-out. Use Rectorseal.

I suspect the real problem is the Chinese crap fittings. All new fittings sold out of any BigBox store have horrendous mold flash seams that violate all the thread specifications. Those linear seams are causing the leaks. You can tighten, to the splitting point, and still have a linear open channel thru the fitting. Sad.

[Lps157]

The metal on the plugs is stainless, there manufactured to be used in a water setting and won't hurt anything used temporarily to replumb. Not sure about other places, but all the box stores around here carry Lasco fittings, made in TN. Same manufacturer my co. buys all our fittings from.

I personally don't use tape on threaded fittings either.

[jrapp13]

I've had good luck with tape in the past, but after reading all the stories on here about not sealing up I decided to go with Blue Monster ptfe seal. Worked really well on the few 1" thread fittings I had to seal up in my return and overflows.

Depending on the severity of the leak, I have had luck draining a system and then smearing more cement on the outside of the fitting. Probably not the safest and longest lasting joint in the world but I have a cpvc valve under pressure in the shop for 2 years that I buggered like that.

[NanoReefWanabe]

If those rubber expansion plugs expose any metal to the salt water you can't use them.

Milad; Thanks for the pictures but I've used Teflon tape for decades and know how to wrap it. Using Teflon tape on PVC threads is not even recommended by the tape makers but we all do try, (not me anymore LOL).

You take a giant risk using tape on PVC and then tightening it a lot. The tape reduces the friction dramatically so the hoop stress of the outer fitting skyrockets. The fittings can then split open, down the road, after the stress works on the joint. If you're still willing to gamble with tape you are supposed to hand tighten the joint. Then mark it and count turns and undo it. Tape it. Reassemble the joint and tighten to your original point then ONE more turn. I did this. Then tightened it another turn. Still they leaked. Another turn - still leaked. Screw that! I don't want a midnight split-out. Use Rectorseal.

I suspect the real problem is the Chinese crap fittings. All new fittings sold out of any BigBox store have horrendous mold flash seams that violate all the thread specifications. Those linear seams are causing the leaks. You can tighten, to the splitting point, and still have a linear open channel thru the fitting. Sad.

LOL..... hoop stress....couldn't resist...LOL, i always use teflon paste, not sure what it does for hoop stress though...Hoop Stress...hehehehe, i cant be the only immature one here who giggled when they read that..Oh man, Rectoralseal too...come on Kcress, your killing me here...lol

[BeanAnimal]

If you are talking glued PVC, no. I have no idea how to help you.

If you are talking threaded PVC then I've recently gone thru the closed loop wringer with 6 out of 8 joints made with Teflon tape failing.

I cleaned off all the tape and used Rectorseal 5 as directed on the can. Result: Zero leaks resulted the second time. This was on 2" fittings.

Then I made up an anti-water hammer stand pipe for our washing machine. To be clever and to have fun watching it work I made it from 1/2" clear PVC and mounted it on the wall in the laundry room. It had 3 threaded fittings. I used Teflon tape. All three leaked! I stripped the %@#$&# tape and used Rectorseal 5 on them - zero leaked.

Now that I've seen large pipe and small pipe both work correctly with Rectorseal and fail with tape, I'm done with using Teflon tape on PVC.

Finally a beleiver.... Teflon tape many PVC joints simply don't play nice together. PTFE tape is usually fine on smaller joints, but anything over 1" is a candidate for paste. For that matter, I use paste on everyhting anymore :)

The problem is the very imperfect threads on most PVC fittings. They are simply nowhere near the tolerances of ductile iron, copper or steel.

[BeanAnimal]

you must be doing something wrong!

2. And I tighten them really really tight, pipe wrench tight. mind you im careful if its attached to glass.



NO! PVC fittings should NEVER be seated that tight. The fittings have tapered threads, meaning the further you drive the male into the female, the more force it exerts.

PTFE tape (or paste) has a high lubricity value and will allow you to very easily overtighten the male fitting into the female socket. This can cause tremendous stress in the female fitting and lead to eventual catastrophic failure as the PVC ages and succumbs to the expansion forces.

Joints should be dry fit, counting the number of turns that create a hand tight fit. Once the tape or paste is added, the same number of turns +1 to +2 is the maximum force that should be needed (or used) to seal the joint. Adding extra tape adds extra stress and is not a remedy for a leaking fitting, nor is giving it a few extra turns.

Again, threaded PVC fittings simply don't hold high tolerances and therefore are often hard to seal with PTFE tape. The paste is a much better solution and allows for a proper seal with the proper force applied to the fittings.

[BeanAnimal]

Doh! I see that I should have read ahead... kc already covered "hoop stress" and overtight joints.

[kcress]

LOL..... hoop stress....couldn't resist...LOL, i always use teflon paste, not sure what it does for hoop stress though...Hoop Stress...hehehehe, i cant be the only immature one here who giggled when they read that..Oh man, Rectoralseal too...come on Kcress, your killing me here...lol


Honestly..


I only ever refer to it as Rectumseal. :blown:

[DeathWish302]

Finally a beleiver.... Teflon tape many PVC joints simply don't play nice together. PTFE tape is usually fine on smaller joints, but anything over 1" is a candidate for paste. For that matter, I use paste on everyhting anymore :)

The problem is the very imperfect threads on most PVC fittings. They are simply nowhere near the tolerances of ductile iron, copper or steel.

I am a believer after switching to a Reeflo Blackfin that had 2" fittings. The crap injection moldings are complete poo with even the pink teflon tape. I'm definitely trying the Rectorseal 5 now.

Also, do you think that pres-stressed connections that may have been UBER tight for 24-48 hrs would be cause for concern of failure down the road if they were reused with the Rectorseal and far less torque during the reseal?

[jeff@zina.com]

I wish I would've put the ball valves after the unions so I could just work on it without draining the tank below the intake for the closed loop

Put a sheet of Saran Wrap over the intake and stuff a rag in it. Should hold long enough.

Jeff

[geo11]

try tightening hand tight and then a quarter inch turn with a wrench, I found when I over-tightened them, they began to leak as well

[Pauper]

Is there a reason no one uses some silicon on the threads to get a tight seal on threaded PVCs?

[kcress]

Yes. It's a bad idea. Use Teflon goop -not tape- or better still Rectorseal #4.

[BeanAnimal]

Pauper,

It is simply a matter of using the proper product for the job at hand. While in some cases, silicone sealant would work, it many cases it creates more mess or permanence than is needed. Why wait for silicone to dry when you can simply apply PTFE paste? The fittings can still be turned and moved as needed with paste, doing so with silicone sealant is hard (if even possible on some joints) and may cause a leak.

[Pauper]

I agree that sometimes using silicon makes it hard or impossible to undo and you should only use a thin layer of it but it does seem to work well. I use it for some of my unions connecting the external pump and even with all the vibration, it's held without problems for a few years now. How reliable is Rectorseal to keep the threaded connection from leaking? If it's better, I would certainly use it over silicon in the future.

[kcress]

Rectorseal is made to seal threads in PVC. Nothing else discussed so far is. PTFE is really there to prevent thread galling - not as a true sealant. Both tape and PTFE can provide some sealing of really tiny leak paths but that doesn't make it a pipe joint sealant.

[BeanAnimal]

I agree that sometimes using silicon makes it hard or impossible to undo and you should only use a thin layer of it but it does seem to work well.[quote] But why use it when there is a product specifically designed for the application that has none of the drawbacks :)

PTFE paste works better than silicone in a threaded application like this. Pump vibration is no problem.

"Rectorseal" is a manufacturers name. They make several different pipe sealing products that range from PTFE paste to soft setting compunds to full hardening pipe dopes.

Rectorseal Tplus2 is PTFE paste with synthetic fibers added to aid in sealing (preventing the paste from migrating under pressure) :)

[kcress]

Rectorseal Tplus2 is PTFE paste with synthetic fibers added to aid in sealing (preventing the paste from migrating under pressure) :)

Ah.. I'd forgotten about the Tplus2. I think they also make a RectorSeal #(something) that is specifically for plastic pipe, but it's hard to find.

The #4 has PVC listed on every can along with about 40 other materials and is available everywhere, so that's what I use.

[rinconmike]

older thread, but have a question on Rectorseal. I wantr to use this for threaded valves at my RO and Salt Water Feed. I am concerned if some gets inside the pipe and it will be washed into the tank.

Is that an issue?

[Pauper]

If you're talking about the John Guest fittings, I think you might be better off using the plumbers tape which is how my Spectrapure RO unit came installed with.

[rinconmike]

If you're talking about the John Guest fittings, I think you might be better off using the plumbers tape which is how my Spectrapure RO unit came installed with.

I am putting together 3/4" SCH 80 PVC fittings (Ball valves, TEEs, Nipples - All Threaded).

This is from my 55 gallon drums in the basement up to my tank.

thanks

[DeathWish302]

Rectorseal is fine. The product is made of inert ingredients. It smells bad, but I can attest it is fine. I recently added to my main systema and used it extensively alond with an addition of the primary & secondary sediment overhaul on my RO/DI. No problems from this and not even a overlfow from the skimmer. If it's NSF approved you should have no concern.

[rinconmike]

Thanks. Lowes has rectorseal 5 and rectorseal T plus 2.

Anyone know the difference. Both say potable water but the 5 says slow drying where the T plus 2 does not.

[BeanAnimal]

You do not want a "drying" pipe dope. You want plain white PTFE based paste.

Always a word of caution, NSF certified has nothing to do with reef safe. For expampe, copper is a part of many NSF certified products, but is not reef safe :)