mantis and harlequin shrimp???

[clownmaroon]

i currently have a 3 gallon jbj tank on my desk with two small harlequin shrimo and a couple of small pieces of live rock.... im looking at getting a mantis shrimp but am curious if it would eat the harlequins? someone help :fish1:

[Peter T]

I wouldn't risk buying a mantis to put with any crustacean that you want to live. It may leave them alone for a bit, but over time you can almost assuredly bet that the mantis will end up killing the harlequins. Mantis shrimp are awesome creatures, but they are not the most invert friendly cohabitants you can look for.

[clownmaroon]

are mantis shrimp jumpers? will they jump out of my topless tank and ive herd they could crack glass, is that true

[leshnign]

Some mantis are known jumpers like O. havanensis, but most you should be ok with. When in doubt cover the tank. As for a mantis cracking glass....I wouldn't worry about it. It would have to be a large mantis to do that (i.e. G.Chiragra,O.Scyllarus), and a very rare occurance at that.
Also...your harlequin shrimp would not last long in a tank with a mantis. They would be a meal indeed. Good luck

[lionbacker54]

3g is too small for any of the commercially available mantis shrimp

[clownmaroon]

actually it may look small but there is pretty good amount of room and im looking at getting a peacock mantis heres the dimension.... L x W x H= 11-3/4" x 8-7/8" x 8"

[Killershrimp]

I have to agree that a three gallon is too small as well, I have a large peacock in my main display , and lemme tell you that he is not invert friendly. I don't think I would trust any mantis with any other type of shirmp , regardless of their size. Just my two cents though.

[clownmaroon]

do they normally eat inverts or crustaceans or will they go after some goldfish everyonce in a while

[Peter T]

My graphurus has killed EVERYTHING I have put in his tank, eaten most of them. My chiragra leaves the two clownfish I have in there alone, and has attacked a blue damsel that was in the tank after being harassed by it.

I definitely recommend that you get a bigger tank if you plan on getting a peacock. They can grow up to 6 inches. Overall, regardless of the species, I still think a bigger tank would not hurt. It will help keep the water quality more stable and give you more room to put in LR and allow your mantis to build a burrow.

[Killershrimp]

Mine eats mysis and krill,and occasionally pellet food. He has killed two engineer gobies in the past due to a territorial disputes. He's fine with the rest of the fish in the tank. When I first got him my juvinile maroon clown "hosted" his antennas without incident, and he has occasionally "ridden" a large cucumber I have in the tank as well. This is not the norm thought as each mantis seem to have their own personality , and he does have a temper tantrum once in a while. So I would say reef safe with proper feeding and space to move freely .

[othercents]

actually it may look small but there is pretty good amount of room and im looking at getting a peacock mantis heres the dimension.... L x W x H= 11-3/4" x 8-7/8" x 8"

Peacock Mantis can get up to 7" long and typically are purchased in the 2 - 3" range. 20L is about the minimum size you should keep a Peacock in, but you would be better off with a 30B or 40B for a peacock Mantis. A N. Wennerae gets 3" in size and can be kept in a 6g at minimum and are typically kept in larger 20L aquariums. One of the reasons for a larger aquarium is that Mantis take food into their den and food might partically decay there causing the Ammonia to spike.

Mantis will eat anything. When they are hungry they will eat what is available. The only things that can survive are equally sized non-bottom feeder fish, and even then if the Mantis is hungry enough they might eat them too. Put enough feeder snails in there and make sure you don't run out and your shrimp MIGHT be fine.

David

[Koshmar]

Why would you risk it? Harleys are awesome, plus how do you house a pair of harleys in a 3g? Is it plumbed into another system?

I can say with almost 100% certainty that your harleys will become little popcorn shrimp in a manner of days, if that.

[Fretfreak13]

Agreed, no mantis belongs in a three gallon tank.

Also, it's not very nutritional to feed any saltwater animal freshwater food, like goldfish or crayfish. Smashers, like peacocks, will generally go after crustaceans because that's what their arms are designed for. Spearers, like P Cillatas, eat fish in the wild for the same reason. If you are really looking at getting a peacock mantis, or any for that reason, you should check out Roy's List. It's a sticky at the top of the board. Got info on all the commercially available mantis' in the hobby (and some that aren't!). =)

[Nilsfish]

I found my Harlequin dead next to a dead hermit(shell cracked open) just last week. Fairly sure the mantis I discovered in my tank several days later is the culprit.

[clownmaroon]

the harley's are very small and what i do is i only use britle stars to feed them and i cut the arms off of the stars and place in different areas (1 star every month and 1/2 ) and i have made my decision on not ggetting a mantis shrimp..... its a jbj 3 gallon its reef reaady basicaly and it sits on my office desk

[Gonodactylus]

Well I must be doing something wrong. I have well over a couple of hundred stomatopods in tanks under 3 gals and surprise - contrary to the dogma being handed out on RC, they aren't all dead. When I read blanket statements such as no stomatopod belongs in a 3 gal tank, it bugs me.

There are many stomatopods that do very well in small tanks. You have to consider the size and species. A 20 mm N. wennerae will do well in a 3 gal until it out grows the tank in a year or so. A 20 mm Gonodactylellus affinis would happily live its entire life (5 years or more) in a 3 gal becuase it will never grow past 25 mm.. Even some adults of larger species do well in properly managed micro-aquaria. I've had an adult Echinosquilla (6 cm) in a 3 gal aquarium for over 6 years and it is doing fine - although we almost never see it because this is a species that almost never comes out of its burrow.

The variables that must be considered when keeping stomatopods in small tanks are the stability of the system as well as the size, activity, feeding behavior and the type of prey (food) used.

Roy

[re_sjo]

Thanks for that Roy. For a moment there I thought I was wrong in housing my (suspected G. viridis) in a 2g/8L pico.. he's about 30mm long and rarely leaves his burrow.. (although this makes me doubt it's a viridis going by your description!)

[Koshmar]

I was talking about the harleys in a three gallon due to the wastes generated from the starfish.... Seemed to me that it would be a little difficult to feed harleys their required food while keeping the nutrient levels low. Still puzzeled about that one but I guess brittle stars would be small enough.

[othercents]

Well I must be doing something wrong. I have well over a couple of hundred stomatopods in tanks under 3 gals and surprise - contrary to the dogma being handed out on RC, they aren't all dead. When I read blanket statements such as no stomatopod belongs in a 3 gal tank, it bugs me.

Yes that statement would be contrary to your website listing the liter sizes for tanks. However what about specifics of placing a peacock mantis in a 11-3/4" x 8-7/8" x 8" 3G aquarium?

When building an aquarium I typically recommend build it based on full grown fish size requirements to maintain a longterm stable environment for the critters, however since stomatopods don't grow as fast as fish it might be something I should rethink.

David

[Gonodactylus]

David,

My website recommendations are based on adult size. However, given that stomatopods settle out as small postlarvae (7 to 25 mm depending on the species) and grow fairly slowly (rule of thumb would be a doubling in length the first year, there is no reason why they can't be kept in a very small system as long as the aquarium is properly maintained. Once they get larger, biological and behavioral factors become more important. I would never keep a Pseudosquilla ciliata in an aquarium with a small footprint given they they need to roam. Nor would I keep an odontodactylid in a small tank because of their tendency to bury molt skins and food. On the other hand, I have no problem keeping a 15 cm Lysiosquillina in a very small footprint tank as long as it is sufficiently deep (30 cm of sand) and is coupled to a much larger tank to maintain water quality. The important thing is to pay attention to the biology and behavior of the animal with some common sense as to the biomass of the stomatopod and the stability of the aquarium. My hackles rise when people treat all stomatopods as having the same requirements.

Roy

[othercents]

Thanks Roy, Hopefully people didn't miss understand that I wasn't commenting against Roy's statements, but I was specifically saying "no stomatopod belongs in a 3 gal tank" statement was contrary to Roy's website information. I also noticed that while N. Wennerae and O. Havanensis have 80mm and 70mm max respective sizes they have significantly different tank requirements (20l and 80l respectively).

We can all agree that Roy has way more knowledge about all the species available and how they interact over time with their environments than we would ever have. Keep up the good work Roy and hopefully us basement dwellers can learn from the master.

David

[Gonodactylus]

David,

The Neogonodactylus wennerae (bredini) - Odontodactylus havanensis comparison is a good one to make my point. While both achieve almost exactly the same maximum size (7 cm), they have very different requirements. N. wennerae settles out at 8 mm and always lives in a cavity. They will dig under rocks, but cannot construct a burrow. O. havanensis settle out at over 20 mm and while juveniles will live in rock cavities, they excavate burrows in rubbly sand almost immediately. O. h rarely occurs at depth above 10 m and as such lives in a stable environment with respect to temperature, oxygen and salinity. They are very intolerant of of rapid changes in water parameters and quickly die if oxygen levels drop and/or organics pollutants build up in the system. They also have a habit of burying molt skins and uneaten food. The bigger and more stable the tank the better.

Neogonodactylus wennerae (N. bredini) can occur in the low intertidal. They have evolved to tolerate wide, quick swings in temperature, salinity, exposure to air, foul water, etc. that come with tidal flux. As a result, they are extremely hardy and can do well even in small tanks the fluctuate in water quality. They also tend to keep their cavities clean throwing out uneaten food where it is visible and easily removed. (You don't want to be stuck in a small cavity with a couple of cc's of water exposed during the middle of the day for three hours. Such conditions could lead to some pretty nasty water in the cavity. When we work in the field on Neogonodactylus bredini, we routinely keep adults in 250 ccs of stagnant water in a plastic cup and change it only every other day. Temperatures fluctuate from 23 - 30 degrees each day. The only special care we take is to keep the water clean (no food, molt skins or freshly laid eggs).

Add to this the tendency for O. h to move around more and that is why I RECOMMEND a 20 gal tank for adults of this species and only a 5 gal for adult N. w. Given their physiology, I would not put a juvenile O. h in anything below a couple of gal, but would hold juvenile N. w in a gal or less.

Roy

[Gonodactylus]

David,

The Neogonodactylus wennerae (bredini) - Odontodactylus havanensis comparison is a good one to make my point. While both achieve almost exactly the same maximum size (7 cm), they have very different requirements. N. wennerae settles out at 8 mm and always lives in a cavity. They will dig under rocks, but cannot construct a burrow. O. havanensis settle out at over 20 mm and while juveniles will live in rock cavities, they excavate burrows in rubbly sand almost immediately. O. h rarely occurs at depth above 10 m and as such lives in a stable environment with respect to temperature, oxygen and salinity. They are very intolerant of of rapid changes in water parameters and quickly die if oxygen levels drop and/or organics pollutants build up in the system. They also have a habit of burying molt skins and uneaten food. The bigger and more stable the tank the better.

Neogonodactylus wennerae (N. bredini) can occur in the low intertidal. They have evolved to tolerate wide, quick swings in temperature, salinity, exposure to air, foul water, etc. that come with tidal flux. As a result, they are extremely hardy and can do well even in small tanks the fluctuate in water quality. They also tend to keep their cavities clean throwing out uneaten food where it is visible and easily removed. (You don't want to be stuck in a small cavity with a couple of cc's of water exposed during the middle of the day for three hours. Such conditions could lead to some pretty nasty water in the cavity. When we work in the field on Neogonodactylus bredini, we routinely keep adults in 250 ccs of stagnant water in a plastic cup and change it only every other day. Temperatures fluctuate from 23 - 30 degrees each day. The only special care we take is to keep the water clean (no food, molt skins or freshly laid eggs).

Add to this the tendency for O. h to move around more and that is why I RECOMMEND a 20 gal tank for adults of this species and only a 5 gal for adult N. w. Given their physiology, I would not put a juvenile O. h in anything below a couple of gal, but would hold juvenile N. w in a gal or less.

Roy

[lionbacker54]

roy, i think it was my statement that "bugged" you. i was the one who stated that 3g is too small for any commercially available mantis shrimp. by this i was referring to peacocks, chiragra, terns, havanensis, ciliata and wennerae. most commercially available mantis shrimp seem to be adults also. so with this in mind, is my statement still very offensive to you?

[Gonodactylus]

In general I react to statements lumping all ages and species of stomatopod. You are right that commercially available species tend to be large, but many of the hitch-hikers are small and would be perfect for a small system.

Also, perhaps I'm too easily "bugged". Time to take a break and go pound some rocks.

Roy

[Fretfreak13]

Nope. It was my statement that was quoted. Sorry to cause such a ruckus, but this is something that I've heard as a sixteen year old girl who has been reading around in the hobby. Most statements here on RC are "blanket statements" that are thrown around. Thanks to Roy for clearing it up, but I'm gonna go crawl in a corner now! =)