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noobtothereef
12/18/2010, 12:30 PM
Im trying to find diy threads or info on mag drive propeller mods, ive heard of huge flow numbers coming from these, i would like more information on this, im shooting for 50,000gph in a 1000g reef but with mp60's that would be $4500.......... maybe a couple of trolling motors lol

widmer
12/18/2010, 01:58 PM
If I had a 1000g+ tank, I would seriously consider looking into trolling motors actually. It makes perfect sense to me.

noobtothereef
12/18/2010, 02:31 PM
If I had a 1000g+ tank, I would seriously consider looking into trolling motors actually. It makes perfect sense to me.

i know, they are dc so controlling them would be easy, huge output as well, a little on the large side though but soooooo cheap......

im really considering a slew of k4's with the sure flow mod, i have no idea what the gph rating is with the mod though, the maxi jet claims 2200gph, i would think the k4 would be higher than that but the maxijet has a larger magnet than the k4....hmmm

kcress
12/18/2010, 07:45 PM
I just don't see what the attachment to having massively over-priced thru the glass mag-drive propellers do for you.

Suggestion.

Purchase the very smallest saltwater trolling motor you can find. Get one for a canoe or 6ft 'deck boat' or something else similar.
Build a nice little anti-fish dicing shroud for it. Salt water motors generally come with a non-metallic shaft. Disassemble it and cut the shaft down to a foot, or whatever you want and reassemble it.

Run it with a battery eliminator. The thing would run for years. You'd likely want to run it very slowly.

With a single shaft-from-above you can mount it anywhere and at angles, which you can't do with the magdrive types.

You can get them new for around $100.

Epay? Probably a lot less.

spamreefnew
12/18/2010, 08:55 PM
as an avid fisherman i will tell you that it is only a matter of time before the trolling motors seals will wear out exposing your aquarium water to the copper and grease inside the motor housing. I have owned about 5 trolling motors over the last 10-15 years and EVERY single one has failed because the bearing behind the propeller wore allowing the shaft to destroy the rubber seal allowing water into the motor housing. I think a better option would be a pnewmatic powered mixing propeller like the use in chemical plants or a food factory. its a ss drive shaft with a prop driven by a air motor.

username in use
12/18/2010, 09:01 PM
If you are really shooting for 50,000gph, then you want the hydro wizard. http://************.com/2010/08/09/hydro-wizard-from-panta-rhei-is-a-carbon-fiber-reinforced-water-jet/

But be careful what you ask for, I saw this thing put a 6" wave in a 20,000g reef. It was about 3 ft down and put a serious chop on the surface of a 30ft by 15ft tank.

widmer
12/18/2010, 09:15 PM
Wow that's a serious pump. What does it cost? More than my car probably...

BTW seeing that tank has given me a new goal in life. Never seen one wide enough where there's a beech with dry sand at the one end and the water's a few feet deep at the other end.

kcress
12/18/2010, 09:56 PM
it is only a matter of time before the trolling motors seals will wear out exposing your aquarium water to the copper and grease inside the motor housing.

Point taken. Scrap that idea.

noobtothereef
12/18/2010, 10:06 PM
If you are really shooting for 50,000gph, then you want the hydro wizard. http://************.com/2010/08/09/hydro-wizard-from-panta-rhei-is-a-carbon-fiber-reinforced-water-jet/

But be careful what you ask for, I saw this thing put a 6" wave in a 20,000g reef. It was about 3 ft down and put a serious chop on the surface of a 30ft by 15ft tank.

ive seen that pump where they had it in sanjay's tank for size comparison to an mp40, waaaaaaaaaay out of my price range lol

im contemplating 18-koralia 4's with the propeller mod, found a few different kits but one advertises 2500gph on a maxi jet and can only assume that the k4 will push that number even higher. 6 of them will be on the back wall of the tank(peninsula) directed towards the other end and the others around the parameter and 4 down the center all on a "swirler stein" rotating all of them back and fourth driven from 1 6rpm gearhead motor linked together with rods from one sirler stein to the next.

I figured i can hit the 50,000gph mark easily for about $1000 and for another $150 i can swirler stein all of the powerheads bu the 6 on the back wall, and also they only pull 12 watts of current each, 216 watts total, if a pump goes bad i will have a shelf full of them, im even considering using the maxijets instead with the prop mod. If i went my original plan of a closed loop the cost would be somewhere in the $6-7000 range and have about a 2000 watt current draw, i would rather sit on a ladder next to the tank with an oar before i spent that kind of money and operating costs.... with running mp40's or 60's the innitial cost would be huge, if i had unlimited money like some i would have a slew of mp40's, mp60's, with a combination of closed loops running oceans motions 4 ways on revolutions and tunze wavemakers.........maybe even a pair of those wizards like mentioned above

I just cant wrap my head around spending $6-8000 on flow, i guess im not a catalog and credit card type of guy and more diy. I think a combination of the swirler steiner and the modded powerheads i will have plenty of random flow, not too mention the added 10,000gph from the 2 reeflo return pumps. I was contemplating a couple of large surge devices but then adding a couple high wattage pumps to the system would kind of defeat the purpose of saving energy

swirler steiner kind of like this but close as possible to the tank surface and also built with much higher quality
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhfQKfhD6E0

Just Hikk
12/19/2010, 12:03 AM
Im trying to find diy threads or info on mag drive propeller mods, ive heard of huge flow numbers coming from these, i would like more information on this, im shooting for 50,000gph in a 1000g reef but with mp60's that would be $4500.......... maybe a couple of trolling motors lol

I don't think you are going to find much about what you are wanting to try to do with a mag pump. It requires a custom impeller (modified shaft mostly) and a custom impeller housing. Same thing they did with the Maxi-jet mods. Longer shaft to get the propeller away from the pump motor so that it can pull more water into the propeller and then a custom volute to hold it all in place. When you look at the power consumption on mag pumps and compare it to other pumps that put out the same gph, people get away from the mag pumps because of it. High energy usage on them.

Second issue is the flow pattern. Assume you could mod a Mag36 and get the 50,000 gph you want (I have no idea, just using it as a reference). If you put that single pump in the tank your ability to control the flow pattern in the tank is gone. You point the pump in one direction and get the flow you get. About the same as putting a MJ400 in a 10 gallon tank. No options at all. With multiple pumps you gain the ability to change the flow patterns to account for the rock work, the tank shape, etc.. If you move something and need to change the flow pattern, with multiple pumps thats simple. With a single pump providing true laminar flow that isn't.

I have two mag18 pumps but they are packed up. Hopefully moving back to Florida in Jan and can get things unpacked and start tinkering again and will look into it as I love overkill projects :) But it still goes back to how easy it is going to be to modify the impeller and how easy it will be to make a custom housing for it all.

Look forward to seeing what anybody comes up with for pump mods though :)

username in use
12/19/2010, 05:57 AM
First, a bank of koralias, modded or not, are not going to move the water in the same way that one large powerhead will. All those little streams are going to get mixed up and weakened within a couple feet and really won't have much power by they time they get to where you really need the flow. Thats why you dont see people using 3 mp10's in a 240g tank, or 10 koralia nano's in a 350g tank even though it would be 4500gph. You need to seriously consider on a 1000g tank, getting items that are sized for a 1000g tank. Its more than just getting to a number, there are a lot of physics to overcome at that size and that amount of water.

A surge system doesnt require a high wattage pump at all. You need a pump that can fill your surge reservoir every 3 minutes or so. If your surge is 20-30 gallons, thats a pretty slow pump. Then your surge will automatically dump the reservoir.

Im also starting to wonder if you have given any real thought to the long term costs of a tank this size considering how reluctant you are to spend a few thousand dollars on flow. Is this tank a reef? If so, what are you lighting it with and do you realize how much wattage that is going to use?

grouper therapy
12/19/2010, 06:04 AM
This is the only reference to the mag 18 prop mods I could find.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1252390&highlight=mag+a+prop+mods&page=2
The hydro wizard mentioned above is releasing a medium version in late Jan..
12,000 GPH @ 80 watts!!!! DC as well. Cost AROUND $800. I am all about DIY but at that wattage draw for 12,000 GPH I''m not sure I can compete with it. I'm thinking one of these mounted on a rotating device would be pretty wild. I will have a fake wall in my tank to accommodate it . It will also be pretty much hidden except the outlet portion extending past the wall. I was told by the company rep that it will be about the size of a large beer can.

shifty51008
12/19/2010, 06:36 AM
I would go with the Turbelle® masterstream 6515
for aquariums over 20,000 litres (5,283.4 USgal.), Flow rate: 50,000 to 150,000 l/h (13,208 to 39,625.8 USgal./h), Maximum flow velocity: 3.7 m/s (145.6 in./sec.), Energy consumption: 280 W - 24V, Power supply unit: 100 – 240 V / 50 – 60 Hz – 24 VDC, Cable length: 10 m (393.6 in.), Dimensions: L 340 x W 165 x H 227 mm (L 13.4 x W 6.5 x H 8.9 in.), Ejection: diam. 125 mm (4.9 in.), Attachment to pipe, diam. 32 mm (1.25 in.), Supplied with Multicontroller 7096.

grouper therapy
12/19/2010, 04:32 PM
I would go with the Turbelle® masterstream 6515
for aquariums over 20,000 litres (5,283.4 USgal.), Flow rate: 50,000 to 150,000 l/h (13,208 to 39,625.8 USgal./h), Maximum flow velocity: 3.7 m/s (145.6 in./sec.), Energy consumption: 280 W - 24V, Power supply unit: 100 – 240 V / 50 – 60 Hz – 24 VDC, Cable length: 10 m (393.6 in.), Dimensions: L 340 x W 165 x H 227 mm (L 13.4 x W 6.5 x H 8.9 in.), Ejection: diam. 125 mm (4.9 in.), Attachment to pipe, diam. 32 mm (1.25 in.), Supplied with Multicontroller 7096.

$3752.00 as well!!

widmer
12/19/2010, 05:12 PM
What if you went crazy mad DIY, bought some miscellaneous appliance for the electric motor (maybe a blender? Then you could control the speed...), used an acrylic rod to transfer the torque down into the tank, where it then interfaces with a plastic gear to turn a prop? It could be like a $100-200 project.

Original Fin
12/19/2010, 08:23 PM
What if you went crazy mad DIY, bought some miscellaneous appliance for the electric motor (maybe a blender? Then you could control the speed...), used an acrylic rod to transfer the torque down into the tank, where it then interfaces with a plastic gear to turn a prop? It could be like a $100-200 project.

Holy electric bill Batman. That's some serious amp draw. Or how bout a shop vac on a timer for surge? That would be TimTaylorific. Imagine the the sound! And the dimming lights!
Awesome.

widmer
12/19/2010, 09:10 PM
Original Fin it's funny to crap on ideas especially when they go out on a limb :thumbsup:

Truthfully though, it's a fun idea to consider. As far as how much electricity it would draw, this is one of those unfortunate circumstances where laws of thermodynamics regretfully apply; you can't get tens of thousands of gph without spending the watts. Meanwhile, with the right system to transfer the torque, I would imagine that there wouldn't be much loss in efficiency as compared to having the prop theoretically coming right off of the motor.

noobtothereef
12/19/2010, 09:25 PM
$3752.00 as well!!

Yean no kidding, i dont know anybody that could afford 1 of those pumps, thats for commercial and zoo applications, and i also dont see any distributor even stocking those and would have to be special ordered, i highly doubt you will ever see anybody here owning one, maybe 1 or 2 whales...... even with a 6 figure income that kind of spending would be really hard to justify, and also considering im posting in the DIY forum trying to find cheap flow and people say "hey i would buy this $10k powerhead", yeah right id like to see this guy buy that $3800 tunze.....

Im shooting for low current draw and cheap inital investments, im looking at the long term and designing a sytem for low cost and getting the same job done as these huge builds that have bottomless pockets, and i dont ant to hear anything about dont plan on spending "x" amount of money because it ill be "x" amount more... i allready know this, at about $7k in my 120 ive been around the block, thats hy im doing alot more research this time around.....

evil4g63
12/19/2010, 09:50 PM
Have you seen this build? http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1640915&page=1 Maybe you can get a few ideas on the pumps or to look for something similar.

grouper therapy
12/20/2010, 06:53 AM
Yean no kidding, i dont know anybody that could afford 1 of those pumps, thats for commercial and zoo applications, and i also dont see any distributor even stocking those and would have to be special ordered, i highly doubt you will ever see anybody here owning one, maybe 1 or 2 whales...... even with a 6 figure income that kind of spending would be really hard to justify, and also considering im posting in the DIY forum trying to find cheap flow and people say "hey i would buy this $10k powerhead", yeah right id like to see this guy buy that $3800 tunze.....

Im shooting for low current draw and cheap inital investments, im looking at the long term and designing a sytem for low cost and getting the same job done as these huge builds that have bottomless pockets, and i dont ant to hear anything about dont plan on spending "x" amount of money because it ill be "x" amount more... i allready know this, at about $7k in my 120 ive been around the block, thats hy im doing alot more research this time around.....

I know what you are talking about. At the local fish club here in Atlanta there were a couple of members that insisted on posting in the DIY forum any and all reasons not to DIY and never,ever offered any constructive dialogue. They did not understand most of the concepts and ideas so they just threw in a bunch of negative comments in an attempt to contribute I suppose. I started an anti diy thread for them .never heard back.lol Then there is the do you realize how much this is going to cost comment when you are searching for less expensive alternatives. YES I do that is why I am looking for other alternatives. I would venture to say that most of the equipment/hardware advancements in the hobby were originally started by DIY hobbyist.

All that said I am looking into possibly prop modding a laguna pump.

shifty51008
12/20/2010, 07:42 AM
i highly doubt you will ever see anybody here owning one

you asked:cool: this guy has 2 in his tank

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1848400

username in use
12/20/2010, 08:05 AM
ok, Ive seen this exact thing in operation at a public aquarium on a 20,000g reef, and he measures the flow in hundreds of gallons per MINUTE! Its a crude drawing but it gives you the idea.


He made it himself. It doesn't require a waterproof motor, or any electrical in the tank. You can use motors that are readily available at electrical supply shops, and are used on things like belt sanders and the like. The red blurb midway down on the right is supposed to say 6" PVC
http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu188/JuicyBone/Picture3-3.png

ErikS
12/20/2010, 09:32 AM
you asked:cool: this guy has 2 in his tank
You are aware who Klaus is.........right? :lol: Ain't exactly your run of the mill consumer, more like "royalty", in fact one might call him a "King". :lolspin:

ok, Ive seen this exact thing in operation at a public aquarium on a 20,000g reef.................
That's what I was going to say - piston pumps. Effective way to move lots of water.

If I were going to do props it certainly would be with a POS Mag pump (wouldn't use cr*pzi-jets either...........been there, done that, rubbish).

username in use
12/20/2010, 09:36 AM
Its not a piston, if you look where I labeled it "propeller" t/he prop spins, sucking water in from above it and blowing it out the bottom

ErikS
12/20/2010, 10:04 AM
Its not a piston, if you look where I labeled it "propeller" t/he prop spins, sucking water in from above it and blowing it out the bottom
Guess I was just laughing at who owns the masterstreams.............my mistake.

shifty51008
12/20/2010, 01:15 PM
oh yeah I know who Klaus is but still he was saying no one on here would have them lol

those things look so small though in his tank, but of course it is a 6,600 gal tank

I never did say it was a cheap way just giving ideas, like the username said using a bunch of small pumps in that size tank is kinda worthless. if it were me I would just do a closed loop type setup

Original Fin
12/20/2010, 02:14 PM
Original Fin it's funny to crap on ideas especially when they go out on a limb :thumbsup:

Truthfully though, it's a fun idea to consider. As far as how much electricity it would draw, this is one of those unfortunate circumstances where laws of thermodynamics regretfully apply; you can't get tens of thousands of gph without spending the watts. Meanwhile, with the right system to transfer the torque, I would imagine that there wouldn't be much loss in efficiency as compared to having the prop theoretically coming right off of the motor.

It's all in good fun...Some of these large scale MacGyver DIY projects can get pretty ridiculous. And by ridiculous, I of course mean AWESOME! If you can afford a 1,000+ gal system, I don't think you're too terribly concerned with a little bitty bump in the electric bill.
The usual protests against too much noise in the livingroom probably don't apply here. If you own a tank that large, you're probably just a little bit excentric anyway.

grouper therapy
12/20/2010, 03:45 PM
First, a bank of koralias, modded or not, are not going to move the water in the same way that one large powerhead will. All those little streams are going to get mixed up and weakened within a couple feet and really won't have much power by they time they get to where you really need the flow. Thats why you dont see people using 3 mp10's in a 240g tank, or 10 koralia nano's in a 350g tank even though it would be 4500gph. You need to seriously consider on a 1000g tank, getting items that are sized for a 1000g tank. Its more than just getting to a number, there are a lot of physics to overcome at that size and that amount of water.

A surge system doesnt require a high wattage pump at all. You need a pump that can fill your surge reservoir every 3 minutes or so. If your surge is 20-30 gallons, thats a pretty slow pump. Then your surge will automatically dump the reservoir.

Im also starting to wonder if you have given any real thought to the long term costs of a tank this size considering how reluctant you are to spend a few thousand dollars on flow. Is this tank a reef? If so, what are you lighting it with and do you realize how much wattage that is going to use?

Please explain.

username in use
12/20/2010, 04:57 PM
You need to do more than just generate a number. You need to focus those gph in a way that it will be effective across the length of a 1000g tank.

Like I said before, put 10 koralia nano's on one wall of an 8ft tank, and then replace them with one mp40 and see which one moves the far side of the tank. All the little streams don't have the focus to drive through the water the way a single point source will.

grouper therapy
12/20/2010, 06:15 PM
[QUOTE=username in use;18076544]You need to do more than just generate a number. You need to focus those gph in a way that it will be effective across the length of a 1000g tank.

Like I said before, put 10 koralia nano's on one wall of an 8ft tank, and then replace them with one mp40 and see which one moves the far side of the tank. All the little streams don't have the focus to drive through the water the way a single point source will.[/QUOTE

I assume you have tried this? I understand that the flow would not be as concentrated but I fail to see why it has to be. Perhaps the flow doe snot need to reach the other end(length) maybe just to the front of the tank. In the tank I have planned multiple power heads placed strategically in the fake wall would do a much better job of moving the total volume of water than would one mp 40.

username in use
12/20/2010, 06:24 PM
I still think this is the best bet. Even for you, you can hide the whole thing behind the false wall, and just have the intake and output poke through.




http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu188/JuicyBone/Picture3-3.png

Just Hikk
12/20/2010, 06:48 PM
I still think this is the best bet. Even for you, you can hide the whole thing behind the false wall, and just have the intake and output poke through.

Absolutely :) Its basically a modified closed loop is all it is. I wonder how a setup like that would work with a 4" or so intake and multiple smaller outlets instead of one large one. Guess: The back pressure would defeat the idea but thats just a guess.

noobtothereef
12/20/2010, 07:41 PM
You need to do more than just generate a number. You need to focus those gph in a way that it will be effective across the length of a 1000g tank.

Like I said before, put 10 koralia nano's on one wall of an 8ft tank, and then replace them with one mp40 and see which one moves the far side of the tank. All the little streams don't have the focus to drive through the water the way a single point source will.

if you look at my design i said i would put them around the paremeter of the tank and down the center, the tank is only 4' widex 10' long, the powereheads on the paremeter producing 2-3000gph are definately going to be effective, the current only has to travel 2' to reach rocks/corals/etc., with having 18 of these(36,000gph+ in addition to the 2 hammerhead returns (8,000gph+) i think it will be plenty of current. Having more smaller sources of current would be better than one huge firehose on one side of the tank wouldnt you think?

username in use
12/20/2010, 07:47 PM
I thought you were talking about ganging them all together, all around the perimeter is another story and you are right, they should work like that. I will say this though. 18 powerheads around the tank is not going to look all that great. I would much rather have 3 or 4 that can do it, than 18. You should also look into a surge tank, as that is a really effective way to get randomized, solid flow to all areas of the tank.

noobtothereef
12/20/2010, 08:06 PM
I thought you were talking about ganging them all together, all around the perimeter is another story and you are right, they should work like that. I will say this though. 18 powerheads around the tank is not going to look all that great. I would much rather have 3 or 4 that can do it, than 18. You should also look into a surge tank, as that is a really effective way to get randomized, solid flow to all areas of the tank.

I have looked into the surge tank idea, for it to be effective it would have to be in the 50-100 gallon range and require a large external pump pulling 2-300 watts, kind of defeating my purpose. My purpose is to drive this tank with as little of power as possible and with as little initial investment as possible. The idea i had to somewhat hide the powerheads is drop the canopy down 4" over the sides of the tank creating a 32" viewable surface but somewhat hiding the powerheads. they are not going to be fastened to the glass, they will be hanging from a swirler steiner, when i said they will be ganged together, all of the swirler steiners will be ran off of 1 motor instead of having 18 seperate motors and connected via rods and rod ends all hidden in the canopy, i larger motor is much cheaper than 18 smaller motors and the needed hardware. Yes i do know 3,4 or 5 powerheads will do the same thing but at what expense? $3,$4,$5,$6,000? for $6000 i can buy 133 koralia 4's with the prop mod kit, even if every one burnt out every 6 months i would still have enough powerheads to last me 5 years , now will the expensive powerheads last 5 years with no problems at all and require no new parts? Also the koralia's have a 2 year warranty so all is well for the first 2 years, im sure they arent designed to have the props but what somebody doesnt know wont hurt them....

Why do people say, "if you can afford a 1000g tank you can afford this and that etc..... maybe i can afford it because im cheap not because i spend boatloads of money on stuff in a catalog. DIY, homework and enginuity will make this affordable to me, some people might not be able to wrap there head around how i want to do things to achieve this venture, but this is a hobby right? I didnt see a rulebook anywhere telling me how i have to do something.

noobtothereef
12/20/2010, 08:09 PM
oh yeah I know who Klaus is but still he was saying no one on here would have them lol

those things look so small though in his tank, but of course it is a 6,600 gal tank

I never did say it was a cheap way just giving ideas, like the username said using a bunch of small pumps in that size tank is kinda worthless. if it were me I would just do a closed loop type setup

Maybe you misread or misunderstood my post, clearly i said nobody here will have them except for 1 or 2 "whales"

davidtsx
12/20/2010, 08:22 PM
Could you take two AC powered magnets and attach a water turbine to one side and you should have something like a vortech right? This is the turbine I'm talking about http://h-hydro.com/turgo35b.jpg

ErikS
12/21/2010, 05:37 AM
oh yeah I know who Klaus is but still he was saying no one on here would have them lol
I figured as much, just funny given my first thought was "of course he has them".......what else would BK's owner have?

(bet he didn't pay retail either :lolspin: )

Why do people say, "if you can afford a 1000g tank you can afford this and that etc..... maybe i can afford it because im cheap not because i spend boatloads of money on stuff in a catalog. DIY, homework and enginuity will make this affordable to me, some people might not be able to wrap there head around how i want to do things to achieve this venture, but this is a hobby right? I didnt see a rulebook anywhere telling me how i have to do something.
I don't really think anyone is arguing that it can't be done with ingenuity - the argument seems to be the definition of "cheap".

The simple fact is Koralias lack the power to move that much water very far - no matter how many you put together. They lack the torque, the force required.

You can use a MAG with prop, but these POS pumps don't last long - you want to take on the burden of replacing them? Maintaining them?

There is a reason you don't see these methods used in commercial applications - the cost ain't worth the headache they bring.

In general lifting large volumes of water is done with 1) Archimedes screw 2) air. Why? They move large amounts of water for little input (relative) & they're reliable.

For water movement props & pistons are pretty effective. The later can be made to move massive amounts of water with relatively little electrical input. There's a reason steam engine lasted so long :D

Video, different application but same principle -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3SGltcQMAE

Simon Garratt's thread:

http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/tank-threads/66115-intertidal-reef-flat-mixed-biotope-system.html

As you can see pistons move a lot of water with little input.

Thread @ WAMAS on a large (3000) gallons. You'll note that it's not his first large tank, also ctenophore currently runs a commercial coral farm (not his first either).

The prop system above is nice...........but how large of a prop do you need versus the RPM of the motor? A high speed universal motor (like in routers, circ saws, etc) would spin a smaller prop fast........but won't live long in a constant duty setting. An induction motor would, but generally they're lower speed = bigger prop = bigger casing.

You can do it with ingenuity but there's no reason to fall into pits that have already been well documented :D

username in use
12/21/2010, 05:45 AM
I have looked into the surge tank idea, for it to be effective it would have to be in the 50-100 gallon range and require a large external pump pulling 2-300 watts,

You would really only need about 30 gallons for the surge to be effective. Have the water drop 5 or 6 ft and it would be pretty solid. A mag 7 with that head could fill the tank every 5 and a half minutes and only draw 70 watts.

spamreefnew
12/21/2010, 06:25 AM
I am thinking of a mechanical paddle moving slowly back n forth or a paddle wheel moving slowly . I am just thinking of how much water a boat paddle moves in just one stroke. If you had a way of mechanically dragging a 1'x1' clear acrylic paddle type device across the length of the tank every few mins.that would make for some serious wave action/flow. maybe something on a track that dips down into the tank,moves across,then lifts out,goes back to the other side and starts again.

widmer
12/21/2010, 06:36 AM
That's a fun idea with the paddle, you could just have an electric motor on a simple lever that does back & forth, like the way a car's cylinder interfaces with the crankshaft.

Also, username in use is right, you could be having like four 100-gallon surges per hour with a $20, 20 watt maxijet.

fishysteve
12/21/2010, 06:38 AM
ErikS have you had some bad experiences with Mag drive pumps? I have about 7 of various sizes that have been running for between 8 and 10 years. Once a year soaking the impeller in vinegar. Maybe I'm just lucky.

Spam - You could attach the acrylic sheet to one of those light mover rails.

ErikS
12/21/2010, 09:55 AM
ErikS have you had some bad experiences with Mag drive pumps? I have about 7 of various sizes that have been running for between 8 and 10 years. Once a year soaking the impeller in vinegar. Maybe I'm just lucky.
Yep, never had one last very long - and even when they do they require more attention that their low cost merits..........but you are correct that should be left out of a water movment thread. :D

That's a fun idea with the paddle, you could just have an electric motor on a simple lever that does back & forth, like the way a car's cylinder interfaces with the crankshaft..
Yep, low RPM motor = lots of possibilities. Piston, paddle.............

viggen
12/21/2010, 12:19 PM
I would look into multiple surge tanks, no need for a 200-300w pump to fill them up. You could get 1 good pump that does 2000-3000 gph & split it up between a few surge tanks. Dart, Snapper, RedDragon (various models) etc pull under 200w & would easily fill multiple surge tanks a few times a hour.

Maybe it's just me but 16x turnover through your filter seems like way to much especially if you are going the refugium route. I would think a single dart would be plenty to run your filtration stuff with 2000-3000 gph of flow.

noobtothereef
12/21/2010, 03:30 PM
I would look into multiple surge tanks, no need for a 200-300w pump to fill them up. You could get 1 good pump that does 2000-3000 gph & split it up between a few surge tanks. Dart, Snapper, RedDragon (various models) etc pull under 200w & would easily fill multiple surge tanks a few times a hour.

Maybe it's just me but 16x turnover through your filter seems like way to much especially if you are going the refugium route. I would think a single dart would be plenty to run your filtration stuff with 2000-3000 gph of flow.

the filter system is 700 gallons..... i have a dart running my return on my 120...
after head loss and plumbing loss a dart at 15' away will only do about 1500gph, im shooting for 5-10x turnover

grouper therapy
12/21/2010, 06:27 PM
I like surge devices but they have to be planned for as well. The water has to come from somewhere and that is the return section of the sump if a sump is used so the volume of that area has to be considered based on the surge tank volume. The fluctuation of the water level within the system will also impact the performance of the ATO if one is used. It can also alter the performance of some skimmers. All of these can be addressed fairly easy but you can't just add a surge device and that is it.