What Else To Add? - 100g Bowfront FOWLR

[SkullV]

Just moved everything into this tank and deciding what else to add. I would like to add 1-2 more fish that will add motion to the tank. The triggers are the main focus of the tank so anything that doesn't work with them will end up being removed. There is PLENTY of swimming room and the rock work is all in the middle so the fish can swim on either side of the rocks. There is also a huge amount of flow with the Quiet14000 return and 2 Koralia evolution 1400 power heads.

Current Livestock:

Sargassum Trigger
Humu Humu Trigger
Flame Angel


I was thinking:


Pinkface Wrass - ALWAYS wanted one of these but worried about it jumping
Coral Beauty - might be an issue with the Flame Agnel
Diamond Goby - for sand sifting since CUC is impossible with the Triggers
Toby Puffer - love puffers but only want one if it will eat NLS pellets
Any other ideas?


Here is a photo of the setup. I know it looks fresh but everything was in my 55g for over 6 months, I just scrubbed the rock before i moved it over to deal with a Cyno problem. I also know the rock work is minimal and I have another 40ish pounds in my sump under the tank. I ALSO know that the stand/canopy need to be painted lol, that is happening first week of Jan.

<a href="http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb102/rockyrubicon/?action=view&amp;current=BigTank.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb102/rockyrubicon/BigTank.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[LisaD]

Current Livestock:

1. Sargassum Trigger - IMO, will eventually outgrow your tank
2. Humu Humu Trigger - may get quite aggressive as it gets older
3. Flame Angel - fine

I was thinking:

1. Pinkface Wrass - ALWAYS wanted one of these but worried about it jumping - not sure if this wrasse is too aggressive, or if it needs more space. Nice looking fish. Don't you have a cover?

2. Coral Beauty - might be an issue with the Flame Agnel - true, but some others have 2 dwarf angels of different species or pairs of flames in similar sized tanks. I'd get more rock structure first, and take the flame out, QT new angel in another tank (or divide from flame) then add together. There may be better ways, so ask around.

3. Diamond Goby - for sand sifting since CUC is impossible with the Triggers - good fish, but these can jump too! I know from personal experience.

4. Toby Puffer - love puffers but only want one if it will eat NLS pellets - you may have to get it used to pellets, puffers can sometimes be picky at first, but generally end up voracious. One of my favorites is Hawaiian spotted, really nice fish, good mellow personality.

5. Any other ideas?
With the huma huma, you will be somewhat limited to fish who can hold their own with it. So marine betta, many fairy wrasses, anthias, etc. are out, IMO. Also slow movers like lionfishes are out. Maybe a royal gramma or orchid dottyback, clarkii clown (there are certainly other clowns, but I think these are nice). Any wrasses should probably be smaller, more assertive ones (not fairy or flasher wrasses) and not big ones (like tuskfish) or overly aggressive (like most Thallassoma - sp.? wrasses - not sure where pinkface is on this spectrum). Maybe one of the smaller, colorful coris wrasses?

[SkullV]

Current Livestock:

1. Sargassum Trigger - IMO, will eventually outgrow your tank
2. Humu Humu Trigger - may get quite aggressive as it gets older
3. Flame Angel - fine

I was thinking:

1. Pinkface Wrass - ALWAYS wanted one of these but worried about it jumping - not sure if this wrasse is too aggressive, or if it needs more space. Nice looking fish. Don't you have a cover?

2. Coral Beauty - might be an issue with the Flame Agnel - true, but some others have 2 dwarf angels of different species or pairs of flames in similar sized tanks. I'd get more rock structure first, and take the flame out, QT new angel in another tank (or divide from flame) then add together. There may be better ways, so ask around.

3. Diamond Goby - for sand sifting since CUC is impossible with the Triggers - good fish, but these can jump too! I know from personal experience.

4. Toby Puffer - love puffers but only want one if it will eat NLS pellets - you may have to get it used to pellets, puffers can sometimes be picky at first, but generally end up voracious. One of my favorites is Hawaiian spotted, really nice fish, good mellow personality.

5. Any other ideas?
With the huma huma, you will be somewhat limited to fish who can hold their own with it. So marine betta, many fairy wrasses, anthias, etc. are out, IMO. Also slow movers like lionfishes are out. Maybe a royal gramma or orchid dottyback, clarkii clown (there are certainly other clowns, but I think these are nice). Any wrasses should probably be smaller, more assertive ones (not fairy or flasher wrasses) and not big ones (like tuskfish) or overly aggressive (like most Thallassoma - sp.? wrasses - not sure where pinkface is on this spectrum). Maybe one of the smaller, colorful coris wrasses?

Thanks for the info! FOR SURE no more clowns though! I have a mated pair of maroons (my little devils) in their own tank because they wouldn't even tolerate the triggers! I am thinking the Pinkface is going to be the way to go. I am also considering a One Spot Foxface.

Also, I have said it before that I personally feel that the Sargassum will be fine in this tank with the amount of flow, the way I have the rockwork set up, and water capacity but I also know that 2 years from now I will be moving and that means upgrading tanks (I prefer to buy new setups when I move so I can set it up, move the livestock and the empty tank separately) so it probably won't matter.

[GoingPostal]

I was going to suggest a foxface or small tang, hold their own, eat some algea and active. I would add some rock and make better hiding places though, I think another angel would be alright with more rock, diamond gobies are the ones that starve a lot aren't they? And jump but if you want any wrasses you will have to cover the tank, even triggers can be jumpers though. I would just stick to siphoning the sand bed as needed rather than a sifter fish. I don't know about pinkface but think they are pretty mean aren't they? I like those and blueheads but my research awhile back suggested they would be too nasty since I do have smaller fish. I had planned on a mystery instead for my tank whenever I have the money.

[LisaD]

you may be fine with the sargassum, I was just giving my thoughts. in two years if you are addicted like I am, you will upgrade no matter what. I went from 55 to 5' 120/6' 125 to 210. And have a lot of sizes in between. :)

I mentioned ONE clown, because I know how the mated ones can be. I kept a big clarkii in my 5' 120 for about 6 years, and it got along well with other (aggressive) fish. It was with an even older tomato clown. They never paired and seldom fought, and the tank was pretty peaceful.

One spot foxface is a good choice, since they are on the smaller side, for a foxface. I love foxfaces and rabbitfish, prefer them to most tangs.

[progman2000]

Nice tank dude - I am in the process of cycling my first 150g and have been considering the same inhabitants for the most part. I definitely would like a Sargassum Trigger, and am also considering a Lion. I am have been struggling with what to go with them also. I am leaning towards a foxface and puffer and either a dwarf flame or coral beauty. I am curious to know what other types of guys can hold their own in this type of setup.

[Cahooligan]

+1 on a tang just for some nice color and some of the smaller tangs might help with algae down the road.

[SkullV]

+1 on a tang just for some nice color and some of the smaller tangs might help with algae down the road.

There is a 0 percent chance of a tang. I don't want to deal with the ich issue or the fragility issue at all. A fox face will deal with the algae just fine as will my current dwarf angel.

[deepblue68]

good luck luck with the tank you look like your off to a good start.100g bowfront that really is a cool looking tank i did not even know they made them,very nice.:)

[Stuart60611]

I have had several pinkface wrasses and think that it could work with this group. Pinkfaces hold their own with large aggressive fish, but stay smaller and thus usually are not the instigators toward larger fish. They are not as aggressive as they are active which often makes more timid fish a bit more reclusive b/c the pinkface is constantly flying around the tank at full speed. I think the biggest concern will be your flame angel who may not like the constant movement of the pinkface and who I could see being picked on by the pinkface. Your triggers will have no problem with the pinkface, and the pinkface can swim circles around everyone else so no worries from its perspective. I would add nothing after the pinkface which also is not very accepting of new tankmates and should be when possible the last fish added. You really have to have a cover with this fish. I have never seen a more active fish than the wrasses of this genus. I could not see how a pinkface could possibly not eventually jump with the excited swimming these guys engage in constantly. I got a small more dully colored female for my most recent (may a good idea for your also in light of the angel since they are less aggressive and less active at this stage) who has since morphed to male (all females change outside presence of male) and is now changing into its most brightly colored terminal male phase stage. Pretty cool to watch happen.

[SkullV]

good luck luck with the tank you look like your off to a good start.100g bowfront that really is a cool looking tank i did not even know they made them,very nice.:)

I dont think they do. This was a used tank and has definitly been re-siliconed and the stand is FOR SURE home built. I think that the previous owner took the bow off the front and changed around the length of the sides.

[SkullV]

I have had several pinkface wrasses and think that it could work with this group. Pinkfaces hold their own with large aggressive fish, but stay smaller and thus usually are not the instigators toward larger fish. They are not as aggressive as they are active which often makes more timid fish a bit more reclusive b/c the pinkface is constantly flying around the tank at full speed. I think the biggest concern will be your flame angel who may not like the constant movement of the pinkface and who I could see being picked on by the pinkface. Your triggers will have no problem with the pinkface, and the pinkface can swim circles around everyone else so no worries from its perspective. I would add nothing after the pinkface which also is not very accepting of new tankmates and should be when possible the last fish added. You really have to have a cover with this fish. I have never seen a more active fish than the wrasses of this genus. I could not see how a pinkface could possibly not eventually jump with the excited swimming these guys engage in constantly. I got a small more dully colored female for my most recent (may a good idea for your also in light of the angel since they are less aggressive and less active at this stage) who has since morphed to male (all females change outside presence of male) and is now changing into its most brightly colored terminal male phase stage. Pretty cool to watch happen.


Thanks for the advice! I think what might happen is me adding the Pinkface and Coral Beauty at the same time to confuse the flame. Otherwise the pinkface will wait to last. Does that seem like a good strategy? I am going to spend a little bit of time early in January repainting the stand, re-skinning the canopy, and adding a top to the open top canopy.

[Stuart60611]

I would definitely not add the coral beauty and think that is really a very bad idea. The two triggers is really pushing things in this sized system, especially in light of the huma. Now you add a pinkface wrasse into the mix, and the flame angel who is really not well matched to these tankmates is really under stress. Further adding a conspecific in such a small tank with highly aggressive tankmates in the form of the coral beauty is asking for major problems. These dwaf angels will be very stressed in this undersized and mismatched environment competing against eachother and make them even more parasite and disease prone than this genus is already known for being. Not a good idea at all in my view and could see severe aggression/parasite/disease problems in this environment.

[Stuart60611]

I would add that a toby puffer here would be a perfect and much better choice than the coral beauty. He will be a bit more reclusive from all of the pinkface's swimming, but noone should pick on him (large fish generally leave puffers alone b/c they know they are poisoneous to eat). I have owned no less than 4 speices of tobies, and they all love NLS pellets.

[SkullV]

I would definitely not add the coral beauty and think that is really a very bad idea. The two triggers is really pushing things in this sized system, especially in light of the huma. Now you add a pinkface wrasse into the mix, and the flame angel who is really not well matched to these tankmates is really under stress. Further adding a conspecific in such a small tank with highly aggressive tankmates in the form of the coral beauty is asking for major problems. These dwaf angels will be very stressed in this undersized and mismatched environment competing against eachother and make them even more parasite and disease prone than this genus is already known for being. Not a good idea at all in my view and could see severe aggression/parasite/disease problems in this environment.

Hm, I will definitely take that into account. At the current moment the flame is the dominant fish in the tank. I think it stresses the Huma more then the Huma stresses it!

[Stuart60611]

Hm, I will definitely take that into account. At the current moment the flame is the dominant fish in the tank. I think it stresses the Huma more then the Huma stresses it!

Ya, but remember, you have babies. Things will not remain constant, and your fish will grow and mature. Do you want to deal with these kind of severe problems in the near term future? I further strongly believe that too much emphasis is misplaced on this unproven notion that fish vary wildly based on their "personality". This idea runs completely counter to most science concerning fish behavior b/c science has shown that most behavior is hard wired in the form of instinct which is generally not susceptable to vast degrees of variation. Although some variation may occur from animal to animal, I think most material behaviors are indeed fairly consistent within a species based both on what I have read and personally observed owning several different animals from the same species with respect to several different groups of fish. As such, to think medium to long term that groups of fish will behaive vastly different to what has been shown in the past with such groupings is usually ill advised. At absolute best, most who had experience owning both would opine that it is nowhere near as enjoyable to own a system with stressed fish as it is to own one with unstressed fish. Hiding, stressed fish are just not as fun to watch. I cannot see how it would possible not to have fairly stressed dwarf angels in this environment.

[SkullV]

Ya, but remember, you have babies. Things will not remain constant, and your fish will grow and mature. Do you want to deal with these kind of severe problems in the near term future? I further strongly believe that too much emphasis is misplaced on this unproven notion that fish vary wildly based on their "personality". This idea runs completely counter to most science concerning fish behavior b/c science has shown that most behavior is hard wired in the form of instinct which is generally not susceptable to vast degrees of variation. Although some variation may occur from animal to animal, I think most material behaviors are indeed fairly consistent within a species based both on what I have read and personally observed owning several different animals from the same species with respect to several different groups of fish. As such, to think medium to long term that groups of fish will behaive vastly different to what has been shown in the past with such groupings is usually il advised.

I completely agree with you and science on this point. It is the same reason that 9 times out of 10 people who try and keep things like tigers, wolves, etc. that were not meant to be domesticated eventually get bit. There is no doubt that the hierarchy of the tank will eventually be:

Huma --> Sargassum --> Pinkface --> Flame

[Stuart60611]

I completely agree with you and science on this point. It is the same reason that 9 times out of 10 people who try and keep things like tigers, wolves, etc. that were not meant to be domesticated eventually get bit. There is no doubt that the hierarchy of the tank will eventually be:
Huma --> Sargassum --> Pinkface --> Flame


Ya, although, I am not sure that the pinkface could not get into second position here. If you add the coral beauty, it is a toss up between whether the flame dominates the coral beauty which is in the flame's favor in light of being established but could change based on size of the fish. If nothing else, these two will be in constant struggle to obtain dominance over the other while at the same time trying to escape aggression from the other fish which will become very intense, especially when considering the small tank size and two of them are triggers who will start to battle eachother with increased aggression as they age. I am just trying to spare you some major grief here that I think is a very likely outcome. I would hate to read in a year or so that you lost most of these fish to a disease outbreak. The way this could play out is one or both of the angels stop feeding because of aggression. One of them then gets sick and infects his tankmates. Not uncommon.

Lastly, I would add that I am not sure how well you have been quarantining all of your recent additions. If you have not, I have little doubt that a parasite is already in the system. At this point, good feedng and a lower stress environment may allow for fish to keep things asymptomatic. Add the stress created by a second dwarf angel, and it would not surprise me if things change rapidly, and you see manefestations of the parasites already in the system which could result in fish losses.

[SkullV]

Other than the sargassum from divers den all fish were fully QT.

[Stuart60611]

Other than the sargassum from divers den all fish were fully QT.

That's real good! Then chances are that you do not have a parasite b/c DD is pretty reliable in that regard. If you do not allow a parasite in the system with further introductions, then no matter how much stress exists fish will not get sick from a parasite. Still something one would obviously not want to test, but makes a complete rapid meltdown unlikely.:) Still, I just think with two conspecifics competing in the form of triggers and dwarf angels combined with the wrasse and the angels at the bottom of the pecking order and being disease prone in such a small system is a potential recipe for major problems which you really may want to seriously consider avoiding. This is going to be a very competitive environment where space is at a premium between two different conspecific species of fish who are generally territorial and thus assuredly of unnecessarily heightened stress. The aggression between, for example, the triggers combined with the wrasse constantly swimming in their faces may stress the angels which cause them to become more aggressive with each other. It could get tough to manage in such tight quarters. Your huma in particular is still really a little guy who I expect will start to show signs of a major personality change toward more aggressive within the next 12 months.

[barbianj]

I think that you could have trouble with the fish you currently have, without adding any more. If you want to get more of the fish on your list, the Humu will have to go. If you want to keep the Humu, I'd say get one wrasse and that's it.

Someone mentioned that watching a tank full of stressed fish is no fun. It's worse when the owner sees the same tank and doesn't recognize it.

Also, it would be a good idea to have some larger rocks to provide more places to hide and to sleep. It's OK for now, but you'll need more spaces when the fish get bigger.

The Sargassum is a very nice fish, btw! Good luck.

[SkullV]

I think that you could have trouble with the fish you currently have, without adding any more. If you want to get more of the fish on your list, the Humu will have to go. If you want to keep the Humu, I'd say get one wrasse and that's it.

Someone mentioned that watching a tank full of stressed fish is no fun. It's worse when the owner sees the same tank and doesn't recognize it.

Also, it would be a good idea to have some larger rocks to provide more places to hide and to sleep. It's OK for now, but you'll need more spaces when the fish get bigger.

The Sargassum is a very nice fish, btw! Good luck.

Thanks for the advice, the Wrasse probably will be the last addition. More rock is coming as well, it is just a slow process since I just moved this past week (moving tanks sucks).