Nitrate factory? ceramic beads

[blennielove]

Hi All,
Hope that everyone had a wonderful holiday!
Well, I am cleaning out my Magnum 350 canister and was thinking if I should take the Eheim ceramic beads out and replace with carbon or leave them, I've read that many times they become little nitrate factories but...

Tank situation:
225 gallon with Lifereef sump and refugium.
Magnum canister is the essentially the pump that puts water through my UV sterilizer.

Let me know what you experts think!

[mike_cmu04]

Yes the beads can be a nitrate factory. Canister filters in general usually become nitrate factories unless you are very consistent with cleaning them out.

[blennielove]

Thanks Mike!
I've been contemplating that for a while now. Initially the thought is that the ceramic beads will grow "good" bacteria but as I read more and more about the live sand and rocks in our tanks, the notion of providing surface area for the bacteria to grow becomes redudant. What do you think about packing it up with carbon?
I've read that carbon needs to be changed frequently also as it "can" turn into a nitrate factory too? Then there is the implication as it can cause lateral line disease in tangs...

:)

[Ticul]

I believe carbon is good for a couple weeks to a month. Maybe someone else can say for sure.

[sheac12]

I run my carbon for one-two week a month. I have read on this site and on others that people do run their carbon 24/7/365 with apparently no ill effects. Personally, it seems to me the carbon would pull out trace elements, but then again a strong protein skimmer does the same.

[TitanTV]

I am going to go out on a limb here but ceramic beads/bio balls are NOT nitrate factories!!! They provide surface area for bacteria that break down nitrite into nitrate. If you do not have nitrite you cannot have nitrate. What they can do is trap old food and crap which breaks down into ammonia/nitrite/nitrate but lets be honest if the bioballs or whatever is going to trap food thats not going to be cleaned up its going to be trapped somewhere else anyhow. I would prefer to convert ammonia all the way to nitrate as fast as possible. But, I'd warn against replacing LIVE rock or a sand bed with bioballs/ceramic as they each provide other much needed functions.

I run way more carbon than needed for my tank with no ill effects 24/7/365. (I have fowlr though so I do not monitor all the finer trace elements). If you run enough carbon through a media reactor it will completely out do your skimmer. My skimmer is nothing but a big airstone and once I see it start to collect some foam I know to change my carbon (once a month or so)and the skimmer stops collecting again. Spend $100 on a next reef reactor, load it with carbon, and see for yourself.

Both of the above are my opinion based on my own aquarium

[blennielove]

Thanks everyone for your input!

How does one "clean" the ceramic beads? I'm thinking that as with all substrate, they need to be dusted every once in a while. Like sand needs siphoned, sponges need rinsed, so to prevent the ceramic beads to become nitrate factories or carbon to do the same, they must be washed somehow.

Any thoughts on that?

:)

[bertoni]

Activated carbon probably should be replaced every month or so in most systems. At that point, it's likely fouled enough by bacteria to be useless. Some systems might need the carbon changed more frequently.

If the ceramic beads are getting plugged with debris, then a rinsing might help. I'd try to avoid exposing them to air in the process, but that might not be critical.

[TitanTV]

If you keep your beads in a bag or something the next time you remove a bucket of water just shake them off in the bucket of old water. That should remove most of the gunk.

[blennielove]

Thanks for the great ideas everyone!

I will take out the beads and put them in a bag in the sump and take the carbon that I do have laying in the sump and put them in the magnum. I think maybe that makes more sense!

[MrTuskfish]

IMO, the term "nitrate factory" is absurd. All tanks are going to produce a given amount of nitrate as a result of aerobic bacteria breaking down ammonia & nitrite. A canister filter, or any other piece of equipment is not going to add to the nitrate produced. However, canister filters (unless running Matrix or a similar product) will not eliminate the nitrate. that job is for LR & LS. Rinsing bio-media (beads, bio-balls) often will get rid of crud before it needs to be worked on by your bacteria friends. A good skimmer removes much of the same stuff. Also, IMO, if you are going to all that work and expense to keep UV running; its a big waste of both. Again IMO, UV is of very little use in a SW tank. It cannot cure or prevent parasitic outbreaks and won't do anything without the precise flow rate required and continual maintenance of the bulb & sleeve. UV is just not used by many hobbyists any more.

[Stuart60611]

IMO, the term "nitrate factory" is absurd. All tanks are going to produce a given amount of nitrate as a result of aerobic bacteria breaking down ammonia & nitrite. A canister filter, or any other piece of equipment is not going to add to the nitrate produced. However, canister filters (unless running Matrix or a similar product) will not eliminate the nitrate. that job is for LR & LS. Rinsing bio-media (beads, bio-balls) often will get rid of crud before it needs to be worked on by your bacteria friends. A good skimmer removes much of the same stuff. Also, IMO, if you are going to all that work and expense to keep UV running; its a big waste of both. Again IMO, UV is of very little use in a SW tank. It cannot cure or prevent parasitic outbreaks and won't do anything without the precise flow rate required and continual maintenance of the bulb & sleeve. UV is just not used by many hobbyists any more.

According to perhaps the single most knowledgeable person here at RC about reef chemistry in home aquaria and prolific published author on the subject, Randy Holmes Farley, the use of bioballs and other ceramic biological media along with rock is, indeed, very counter-productive and will result in the system having unnecessarily elevated nitrate when compared to the system relying upon rock alone for biological filtration. The "nitrate factory" label placed upon bioballs and ceramic biological media is not at all absurd as suggested above because in practicality this is exactly the end effect -- otherwise unnecessarily elevated nitrate. Moreover, keeping the bioballs or ceramic media clean and good skimming will not, as suggested above, prevent unnecessarily elevated nitrate because these issues are not the cause of the problem.

5. Remove existing filters designed to facilitate the nitrogen cycle. Such filters do a fine job of processing ammonia to nitrite to nitrate, but do nothing with the nitrate. It is often non-intuitive to many aquarists, but removing such a filter altogether may actually help reduce nitrate. So slowly removing them and allowing more of the nitrogen processing to take place on and in the live rock and sand can be beneficial.

It is not that any less nitrate is produced when such a filter is removed, it is a question of what happens to the nitrate after it is produced.

When it is produced on the surface of media such as bioballs, it mixes into the entire water column, and then has to find its way, by diffusion, to the places where it may be reduced (inside of live rock and sand, for instance).

If it is produced on the surface of live rock or sand, then the local concentration of nitrate is higher there than in the first case above, and it is more likely to diffuse into the rock and sand to be reduced to N2.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...t2003/chem.htm (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/chem.htm)

[pwhitby]

the truth of the matter is that for any media to create nitrate it needs to be oxygen exposed. Oxygen exists in the water - of course- but live rock and ceramic beads slow the gaseous exchange of oxygen with the bacteria coating them such that an anaerobic area is created. It is here that the nitrate is converted to nitrogen gas.

Ceramic beads dropped in a tank will not make excess nitrate- they will assist in denitrification.

Ceramic beads in a cannister filter may result in nitrate- if the water flow is too high and they are supplied with high oxygen content water.

Now- the offshoot of this is that to convert nitrate to nitrogen gas, we need anaerobic areas with anaerobic bacteria, as stated above. These are created when aerobic bacteria (which convert fish poop to nitrates) grows on a surface and effectively blankets it from the oxygen in the water.

Given that a tank can only support a certain number of bacteria, due to food source availability, if the cannister filter is working well with lots of flow, most of the aerobic bacteria grow on the filter media in the filter. This reduces the bacteria in the tank on the rock and leads to less blanketing of the anaerobes. The anaerobes in turn become less efficient at turning excess nitrate to nitrogen.

Hopefully that makes sense...

the answer is, yes, ceramic beads can indeed lead to an uncoupling of the denitrification process and lead to elevated nitrates. They would be better used dropped in a sump or behind rocks and left alone.

Paul.

[Stuart60611]

Pwhitby:

You bring up another reason for why bioballs and the like may result in excess nitrate predicated the way I understood it to be generally a limited amount of resources taken up by the nitrification bacteria which can only exist on such media reducing the number of denitrification bacteria that can reside on the rock. And I agee, bioballs and the like do not by themselves create nitrate. Rather, the problem with bioballs and the like is that they slow down the rate nitrate is broken down when used with rock for the reasons you stated and for the reason Randy stated in terms of diffusion of nitrate to denitrification bacteria being less effecient. Do bioballs and the like create nitrate? Absolutely not. Do they when used with rock often substantially reduce the efficiency by which the system can break down nitrate? Yes.

[blennielove]

So this is why...
I've had this tank running for a little more than a year now. I added the ceramic balls about two months ago, thinking that it would help provide surface areas for more bacteria to break down waste. What I've noticed is that since I did that, the nitrate level is higher than I've seen in this tank. Prior to this, it was running with 250lb live rock, 300lb sand, Lifereef protein skimmer that makes a very nice pea soup, and I rince out the sponges in my sump resulting in a fairly consistent Nitrate level of 10 - 15 ppm on "bad" days. Since I used the beads, the nitrate level has edged up to 20-25 ppm. I didn't understand how things worked until reading this but now it makes sense why I have my refugium with live sand and rocks instead piled hight with bio-balls or the like.

So now, I will do what I thought to do, but with clearer understanding of the reasons behind the action!

Thanks!

:)

[MrTuskfish]

According to perhaps the single most knowledgeable person here at RC about reef chemistry in home aquaria and prolific published author on the subject, Randy Holmes Farley, the use of bioballs and other ceramic biological media along with rock is, indeed, very counter-productive and will result in the system having unnecessarily elevated nitrate when compared to the system relying upon rock alone for biological filtration. The "nitrate factory" label placed upon bioballs and ceramic biological media is not at all absurd as suggested above because in practicality this is exactly the end effect -- otherwise unnecessarily elevated nitrate. Moreover, keeping the bioballs or ceramic media clean and good skimming will not, as suggested above, prevent unnecessarily elevated nitrate because these issues are not the cause of the problem.

5. Remove existing filters designed to facilitate the nitrogen cycle. Such filters do a fine job of processing ammonia to nitrite to nitrate, but do nothing with the nitrate. It is often non-intuitive to many aquarists, but removing such a filter altogether may actually help reduce nitrate. So slowly removing them and allowing more of the nitrogen processing to take place on and in the live rock and sand can be beneficial.

It is not that any less nitrate is produced when such a filter is removed, it is a question of what happens to the nitrate after it is produced.

When it is produced on the surface of media such as bioballs, it mixes into the entire water column, and then has to find its way, by diffusion, to the places where it may be reduced (inside of live rock and sand, for instance).

If it is produced on the surface of live rock or sand, then the local concentration of nitrate is higher there than in the first case above, and it is more likely to diffuse into the rock and sand to be reduced to N2.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...t2003/chem.htm (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/chem.htm)

I've probably admitted I'm wrong on this forum more times than I've done so in my 63 years of other stuff. The idea that nitrate produced by the LR is easier for the anaerobic bacteria in the LR makes some sense but I still think an adequate amount of good LR should be able to handle a tank's nitrate---no matter where it is produced. The term "nitrate factory" just suggests to me that filter media is producing more nitrate than the same tank would without the media. I don't think that is correct. (Or implied in your post.) I can remember when LR first hit the hobby; it was quite a while before anyone realized that it was the perfect home for nitrate eating bacteria; and that was the key to reefkeeping. LR is a great "nitrate factory". (Hell, I can remember when folks didn't realize that UG filters were getting rid of ammonia.) I haven't read everything I need to and am getting some input from the person who really got me on the right path. My final thought: LR is the greatest thing to hit the hobby in my lifetime; but folks can still keep a very healthy tank with a canister and LR. Maybe I should say, just a FOWLR and be on the safe side. I say this primarily to beginners that think they have to re-mortgage the house to buy enough LR, just to move from FW to basic SW.

[Stuart60611]

I've probably admitted I'm wrong on this forum more times than I've done so in my 63 years of other stuff. The idea that nitrate produced by the LR is easier for the anaerobic bacteria in the LR makes some sense but I still think an adequate amount of good LR should be able to handle a tank's nitrate---no matter where it is produced. The term "nitrate factory" just suggests to me that filter media is producing more nitrate than the same tank would without the media. I don't think that is correct. (Or implied in your post.) I can remember when LR first hit the hobby; it was quite a while before anyone realized that it was the perfect home for nitrate eating bacteria; and that was the key to reefkeeping. LR is a great "nitrate factory". (Hell, I can remember when folks didn't realize that UG filters were getting rid of ammonia.) I haven't read everything I need to and am getting some input from the person who really got me on the right path. My final thought: LR is the greatest thing to hit the hobby in my lifetime; but folks can still keep a very healthy tank with a canister and LR. Maybe I should say, just a FOWLR and be on the safe side. I say this primarily to beginners that think they have to re-mortgage the house to buy enough LR, just to move from FW to basic SW.

Fair enough. I completely agree that one can keep a fish only tank just fine without rock and just bioballs. And I agree, beginners do not have to mortgage their house just to buy very expensive rock when they can keep just fish much cheaper using bioballs. However, with the price of baserock being so cheap, I think that bioballs for a fish only system are not that much of a savings anymore and thus even in a fish only system base rock may be a better option. I only posted because I too wanted to make sure that new people to the hobby did not make the mistake, like the OP apparently did, of adding bioballs to a system with rock thinking that the added surface area provided by the bioballs would increase the system's ability to break down nitrate when in fact the addition of bioballs with the rock makes the system less efficient at breakding down nitrate. In a fish only context, nitrate is not that much of a concern other than it generally leads to major nuisance algae problems which are a serious problem in a fish only system without a clean up crew.

[pwhitby]

the issue with bioballs, filter floss, filter wheels and ceramic beads...in high oxygen (high flow areas) is this.

For the final step of denitrification, conversion of Nitrate to Nitrogen the bacteria that do this (anaerobes) need to be shielded from oxygen. The only way this can happen is for "something" to consume the oxygen before it can reach the anaerobes.

Imagine the scenario, on the surface of the rock are anaerobes, blanketed by a layer of aerobes. Above that is oxygen rich water. The aerobes consume ammonia and make (sequentially) nitrite and nitrate. They do this within a fraction of a millimeter of the aerobes, which readily gobble up the nitrate and convert it to nitrogen. Its a biological machine- or assembly line.

Now- the aerobes will grow anywhere there is food and oxygen. They will GROW BEST where there is an excess of either.

Ceramic beads, biowheels etc are in high oxygen areas, they are either directly exposed to air, such as trickle filters and biowheels, or in filters with massive throughput.

Their total level is limited by the available foods, so only a certain amount will grow. They grow best on the filter media and prolifertae, leaving less in the tank.

Due to extreme high oxygen availability they are insufficient to blanket the potential growth of anaerobes in the filters.

Due to them being sparse in the tank, they are insufficient to blanket the potential growth of anaerobes in/on the rock.

The nitrate they produce is not consumed immediately, and diffuses to the tank water.

Limited anaerobes can not keep up with the nitrtae production and the system becomes uncoupled.

Paul.

[MrTuskfish]

the issue with bioballs, filter floss, filter wheels and ceramic beads...in high oxygen (high flow areas) is this.

For the final step of denitrification, conversion of Nitrate to Nitrogen the bacteria that do this (anaerobes) need to be shielded from oxygen. The only way this can happen is for "something" to consume the oxygen before it can reach the anaerobes.

Imagine the scenario, on the surface of the rock are anaerobes, blanketed by a layer of aerobes. Above that is oxygen rich water. The aerobes consume ammonia and make (sequentially) nitrite and nitrate. They do this within a fraction of a millimeter of the aerobes, which readily gobble up the nitrate and convert it to nitrogen. Its a biological machine- or assembly line.

Now- the aerobes will grow anywhere there is food and oxygen. They will GROW BEST where there is an excess of either.

Ceramic beads, biowheels etc are in high oxygen areas, they are either directly exposed to air, such as trickle filters and biowheels, or in filters with massive throughput.

Their total level is limited by the available foods, so only a certain amount will grow. They grow best on the filter media and prolifertae, leaving less in the tank.

Due to extreme high oxygen availability they are insufficient to blanket the potential growth of anaerobes in the filters.

Due to them being sparse in the tank, they are insufficient to blanket the potential growth of anaerobes in/on the rock.

The nitrate they produce is not consumed immediately, and diffuses to the tank water.

Limited anaerobes can not keep up with the nitrtae production and the system becomes uncoupled.

Paul.

This makes a lot of sense and is fairly consistent with my ideas on the process. I think a real variable is the quality of LR. LR that can support adequate amounts of anaerobic bacteria...will. But if nitrate can be dealt with before it reaches the water column, great. Its been many years since depended on anything other than LR to deal with organics; but I do like outside filtration for mechanical & chemical filtration. I have a central system now and have a real "Rube Goldberg" filter. It holds 6 Aqua-Clear 110 filter sponges, side by side and any chemical media. (I like Chemi-Pure and run Phosguard part time. My friend & helper changes the sponges and rinses media bags 3X weekly. I think this stops a lot of crud from ever reaching the ammonia stage. We even have an old washing machine that cleans the filter sponges when they accumulate. (In a smell-proof container) I don't know why I go thru all this, my only reef is a 55 and have about 660 gals (+sump) of FOWLR. I really don't worry about nitrates in FOWLR systems. But love the toys!

[blennielove]

Okay,
So now, after reading and re-reading...
1. When a system has the appropriate amount of live sand and rock, BIOLOGICAL filtration may be completed (ammonia to nitrogen) without any additional things such as biowheels, bioballs, biobeads, and such.
2. If any additional things (biowheels and such) are used, they will increase the nitrate level as these things do not provide the anaerobic bacteria for the ammonia to be completely broken down to nitrogen.

So in my 225 gallon plus LifeReef sump and refugium. The best thing to do, is to remove all the ceramic beads. Continue to use the Magnum 350 as a pump for the UV sterilizer but place polyfilter where the sponge goes to take out excess nitrate. Rinse out any sponges in the sump at least weekly. Make sure that I have a deep sand bed in the refugium and grow macro-algae.

In my 55 gallon, you will laugh, but it has one Penguin with the two biowheels, and a Whisper with those biobags. First, I will take out the two biowheels, and just use the sponge for mechanical filtration making sure that I rinse those sponges out weekly. Use the Whisper also the same way but can add Polyfilter to take out additional nitrate. Then I will add more sand in the tank to make it a true "deep sand bed" and add additional rockwork to provide enough places for denitrification to take place naturally.

For both systems, carbon can be used sparingly.

Please let me know if I've "failed" in my interpretation of the information provided.

Thanks so much!!!

[bertoni]

If you want to remove the ceramic beads, I would recommend that you pull out a small number at a time, to allow bacteria on the live rock to catch up with the new ammonia input. I'd also watch to make sure that the live rock is up to the task.

[griss]

If you want to remove the ceramic beads, I would recommend that you pull out a small number at a time, to allow bacteria on the live rock to catch up with the new ammonia input. I'd also watch to make sure that the live rock is up to the task.

Excellent advice:thumbsup:

[blennielove]

Oooh, you are so thoughtful!

[MrTuskfish]

Okay,
So now, after reading and re-reading...
1. When a system has the appropriate amount of live sand and rock, BIOLOGICAL filtration may be completed (ammonia to nitrogen) without any additional things such as biowheels, bioballs, biobeads, and such.
2. If any additional things (biowheels and such) are used, they will increase the nitrate level as these things do not provide the anaerobic bacteria for the ammonia to be completely broken down to nitrogen.



Thanks so much!!!

I know I'm being a little defensive and picky; but from what i know and what I've learned on this great thread: I really don't think its quite accurate to say that bio-balls, etc., increase nitrate. It seems that it just takes longer for the nitrate to reach the anaerobic bacteria in the LR. Splitting hairs, I know. But I still don't like to say that non-LR filtration produces extra nitrate. Maybe someone can come up with a good way of labeling this phenomenon.

[pwhitby]

... I really don't think its quite accurate to say that bio-balls, etc., increase nitrate. It seems that it just takes longer for the nitrate to reach the anaerobic bacteria in the LR. Splitting hairs, I know.

You are missing the point...

The point is the anaerobic bacteria can not grow since the aerobes are not available in the tank to blanket them.

No anaerobes, no denitrification, nitrate accumulates.

Can bioball use lead to the production of nitrates ?, yes. By uncoupling production of nitrate from the conversion of nitrate to nitrogen gas.

[MrTuskfish]

You are missing the point...

The point is the anaerobic bacteria can not grow since the aerobes are not available in the tank to blanket them.

No anaerobes, no denitrification, nitrate accumulates.

Can bioball use lead to the production of nitrates ?, yes. By uncoupling production of nitrate from the conversion of nitrate to nitrogen gas.

Be patient, I can be a slow learner. I have always assumed that anaerobic bacteria thrived in the inner chambers of LR, almost devoid of oxygen carrying water flow. I also assumed that aerobic bacteria needed the oxygen, provided (or at least enhanced) by good water flow. If the aerobic bacteria blanket the anaerobic, protecting the anaerobic from excess oxygen; why can't this take place on any surface where the bacteria can get a foothold, such as the substrate, filter media, etc.?

[pwhitby]

It can, but there is more surface area in and on live rock. A small pice of LR, say size of a golf ball has as much surface area as the glass walls of the tank.

The only reason the water is anaerobic inside LR is due to the aerobes on the outside and edges of the LR. without those, the water has as much oxygen outide as inside.

In filter media you are constantly bathing the bacteria with flow, the oxygenb content is so high that the bacteria can not deplete the oxygen, hence no aerobic areas.

In LR the structure and other physical parameters such as boundary layers prevent water flow, hence there is more opportunity to create anaerobic areas.

Imagine if you will a very long corridor packed with people and a window at each end and a breeze blowing thru. If you stand at the end, you can breathe fine cos the air is flowing.

Now close the window behind you. By the time air gets down to you it low in oxygen and pretty stuffy. Its the same principle with LR- which is the close corridor, and media in a filter, which is analogous to the open corridor.

P.

[MrTuskfish]

It can, but there is more surface area in and on live rock. A small pice of LR, say size of a golf ball has as much surface area as the glass walls of the tank.

The only reason the water is anaerobic inside LR is due to the aerobes on the outside and edges of the LR. without those, the water has as much oxygen outide as inside.

In filter media you are constantly bathing the bacteria with flow, the oxygenb content is so high that the bacteria can not deplete the oxygen, hence no aerobic areas.

In LR the structure and other physical parameters such as boundary layers prevent water flow, hence there is more opportunity to create anaerobic areas.

Imagine if you will a very long corridor packed with people and a window at each end and a breeze blowing thru. If you stand at the end, you can breathe fine cos the air is flowing.

Now close the window behind you. By the time air gets down to you it low in oxygen and pretty stuffy. Its the same principle with LR- which is the close corridor, and media in a filter, which is analogous to the open corridor.

P.

Got it, thanks! I always assumed the nitrate was removed simply by random flow through the LR, which harbors the anaerobic bacteria. What an amazing process; a reef product that just happens to make reef-keeping possible. Although I have read the opinion that this is nature's way of removing nitrate from the ocean.:strange:

[pwhitby]

LOL,

Its a very interesting process. Its based on complex bacterial biofilms, which are some of the most efficient organisms on the planet.

Once you get the concept you can see why trickle filters and biowheels really dont help a marine tank.

Thanks for hanging in there.

Regards,

Paul. (Molecular Microbiologist)