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Steve Wright2
01/02/2011, 12:11 AM
Hi all

I have been using Brightwell Aquatics bio fuel as my carbon source for approximately 6 weeks
tank contains 75 gallons of salt water and I am currently using 3mls of bio fuel on daily basis

my Salifert test kits indicate, my Nitrates and Phosphates are both at zero
I have minimal algae issues ( Tiny amount of GHA, no cyno, but prime culprit and reason for the carbon dosing has been micro algae and glass needed cleaning 3 times per week, down to twice since dosing bio fuel)

I am considering swapping over to Vodka for continued maintenance dosing
( nothing wrong with the bio fuel, but I figure Vodka would be more cost effective)

having read several articles, including the one by Genetics and Stony Corals
I am unsure of at what dosing level to begin with the transfer from bio fuel to Vodka

do I start with the o.1 ml per 25 gallons (thus 0.3ml in my case)?
and monitor levels and increase if required?

or should I start with even less than the above amounts, due to fact I have the zero levels on phosphate and nitrates?

thanks in advance for any assistance

Steve

creefer01
01/02/2011, 06:36 AM
I have been considering the same thing. I'm interested to see the responses to this and agree that it's likely a more cost effective solution.

Steve Wright2
01/02/2011, 06:49 PM
I have been considering the same thing. I'm interested to see the responses to this and agree that it's likely a more cost effective solution.

Thank you creefer01
are you also using the bio fuel at present?

Steve

Beamers
01/02/2011, 06:56 PM
If you've already been using bio fuel , your bacteria should be hungry enough to handle .5 - 1ml to start. I ramped up to 3ml pretty quickly in my 125 without any issues.

Steve Wright2
01/02/2011, 07:04 PM
If you've already been using bio fuel , your bacteria should be hungry enough to handle .5 - 1ml to start. I ramped up to 3ml pretty quickly in my 125 without any issues.

Thank you Beamers

Steve

creefer01
01/03/2011, 07:15 AM
Thank you creefer01
are you also using the bio fuel at present?

Steve

I am using the bio fuel at the moment. I don't plan on changing though until I run out of it. I'm bumping my dose of MB7 and bio fuel up a bit due to some recent fish additions. Will back down within a week.

creefer01
01/03/2011, 07:16 AM
If you've already been using bio fuel , your bacteria should be hungry enough to handle .5 - 1ml to start. I ramped up to 3ml pretty quickly in my 125 without any issues.

Are you suggesting .5-1ml for Steve's entire system volume based on your experience?

Steve Wright2
01/03/2011, 07:33 AM
Are you suggesting .5-1ml for Steve's entire system volume based on your experience?

I believe he means 0.5 - 1.0 ml per 25 gallons which is between half to a full amount of the starting dosage as suggested by Genetics and Stony Coral in their vodka dosing article

I still have about 20 days worth of Bio Fuel left so I will probably switch over once its finished

Steve

creefer01
01/03/2011, 07:45 AM
I believe he means 0.5 - 1.0 ml per 25 gallons which is between half to a full amount of the starting dosage as suggested by Genetics and Stony Coral in their vodka dosing article

I still have about 20 days worth of Bio Fuel left so I will probably switch over once its finished

Steve

That's what I thought....

Nice avatar btw.

Keep me posted on your results. I have quite a bit longer to go than you and I'm dealing with much less water volume as well. I have a total of about 34 gallons.

Steve Wright2
01/03/2011, 07:55 AM
thanks creefer01

I will certainly update you with any findings I have after the switch over

Steve

Genetics
01/03/2011, 02:32 PM
If you are thinking about switching you may want to start adding small additions of vodka to see if start to see the effect you are trying to achieve. Go up on vodka while going down on biofuel either until your happy or completely off biofuel.

creefer01
01/03/2011, 03:06 PM
If you are thinking about switching you may want to start adding small additions of vodka to see if start to see the effect you are trying to achieve. Go up on vodka while going down on biofuel either until your happy or completely off biofuel.

Great advise. Thank you.

tmz
01/03/2011, 03:14 PM
I'd do what Nate suggests . Since we don't know what's in the biofuel or the dilution ; its not possible to translate the organic carbon amounts to vodka/ethanol equivalents.

Steve Wright2
01/03/2011, 06:35 PM
If you are thinking about switching you may want to start adding small additions of vodka to see if start to see the effect you are trying to achieve. Go up on vodka while going down on biofuel either until your happy or completely off biofuel.

I'd do what Nate suggests . Since we don't know what's in the biofuel or the dilution ; its not possible to translate the organic carbon amounts to vodka/ethanol equivalents.

Thank you Genetics and tmz

thats exactly what concerned me, as I have no idea, how much bio fuel equals how much vodka, and thus no way of knowing at what stage to commence the dosing

as I am currently dosing 3ml total of bio fuel
I will change to 2ml for 1 week and add 1ml of Vodka
the following week add 1ml of bio fuel and 2ml of Vodka
thus on week 3, I should then be on 3ml of vodka - the standard starting dose

and I will be prepared to back track, should I notice any detriment during the gradual switch over

Steve

tmz
01/04/2011, 10:30 AM
Good luck. Let us know how it works out.

Steve Wright2
01/04/2011, 10:34 AM
Good luck. Let us know how it works out.

Thank you tmz

I will do

also wanted to correct myself
My starting dose will be 0.1ml of Vodka and 2ml of Bio Fuel
and the following week 0.2ml Vodka and 1ml Bio fuel
then week 3 = 0.3ml of Vodka - which is the correct starting dose for 75 gallons and not the 3mls I mentioned in my previous post

Re read the article and noted the decimal point

Steve

Steve Wright2
01/06/2011, 02:45 AM
I have read that the type of Vodka used is not important
as long as its Vodka and not Vodka with flavourings added

but even so, reassurance is a good thing IMO

So is triple distilled Smirnoff 21, 40% an OK brand to work with?

Steve

tmz
01/06/2011, 06:31 PM
Don't know about Smirnoff 21, sounds fine but I use cheap stuff,Bartons @ $12.99 per 1.75 liter bottle. When I buy it folks in the liquour store watch me leave expecting me to sip it in the parking lot right from the bottle in the brown paper bag.

Genetics
01/06/2011, 06:45 PM
:thumbsup:

Yes, I believe Smirnoff is fine. I always stuck with the cheaper stuff as well. Look at the GHA in your tank and then at your corals. When you start dosing vodka add 0.1mL for your first 3-4 days and look at the GHA and corals again. If the GHA is fading and corals are becoming more pale, stay at that amount of vodka and reduce your biofuel. If the GHA is unchanged or increasing then go ahead and increase the vodka by 0.1mL to 0.2mL. This way you may be able to get a more smooth transition.

Steve Wright2
01/06/2011, 06:54 PM
Don't know about Smirnoff 21, sounds fine but I use cheap stuff,Bartons @ $12.99 per 1.75 liter bottle. When I buy it folks in the liquour store watch me leave expecting me to sip it in the parking lot right from the bottle in the brown paper bag.

Thanks tmz
Note to self , next time dont shop for Vodka before 9 am
as you also get the same looks as described by tmz above

:thumbsup:

Yes, I believe Smirnoff is fine. I always stuck with the cheaper stuff as well. Look at the GHA in your tank and then at your corals. When you start dosing vodka add 0.1mL for your first 3-4 days and look at the GHA and corals again. If the GHA is fading and corals are becoming more pale, stay at that amount of vodka and reduce your biofuel. If the GHA is unchanged or increasing then go ahead and increase the vodka by 0.1mL to 0.2mL. This way you may be able to get a more smooth transition.

Thank you Genetics

that sounds like a good method for assesing amounts needed
I will give that a try

Steve

Steve Wright2
01/06/2011, 07:34 PM
Hope its OK to continue this thread as a journal?

day 1 of the gradual switch over was today
2mls of Bio fuel added, using water collecting syringe from test kit
0.1 ml of Vodka added, using unused reagent syringe from replacement test kit ( old syringe can be used on the new test kit, thus a perfectly new syringe for the vodka experiment)

Using Genetics advise above, I will monitor the algaes and corals in addition to weekly testing for nitrate and phosphate

Algae - GHA - I honestly have minimal, tank has been up and running for 3 years, albeit with a few changes on the way

http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx303/meilong2/IMG_3649.jpg
http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx303/meilong2/IMG_3648.jpg
the only place I see GHA is on the front of my wavemakers, and I have been periodically removing one and boiling water and scrubbing so it never gets badly out of hand

http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx303/meilong2/IMG_3650.jpg
red bush type algae - my sally lightfoot crabs do eat this and thus far its only on 2 pieces of rock

http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx303/meilong2/IMG_3651.jpg
green micro algae and the reason I started using bio fuel
I was glass cleaning every other day - after a couple of weeks with bio fuel this was reduced to twice per week, but after 4 more weeks of bio fuel, a stalemate has been reached and no further reduction has occured

http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx303/meilong2/IMG_3653.jpg

the full tank shot gives you an overview of the tanks actual condition
its not exactly an algae forrest in there
but its not the standard of clean, that I see on many other tank threads
and which I wanted to achieve 1st with bio fuel, and now with a transition to Vodka dosing

if its OK that this thread is a journal
I will update it with progress on the areas above
and will not do any manual cleaning of the wavemakers in order to be able to asses my Vodka additions requirements

Steve

Steve Wright2
01/08/2011, 08:00 AM
day 1 was yesterday

dosed 2mls Bio Fuel and 0.1ml Vodka

no visible changes to anything in reef

today dosed 2ml Bio Fuel and 0.1ml vodka again

the tank looks crisper today and thats the best word I can think of to describe it
its not any clearer as clarity was OK before as I always ran carbon
its not the colours of the corals being more intense as they seem the same
it seems to be ambient colour of the tank itself is sharper

GHA at about the same, so I will dose 2 and 0.1 again tomorrow and then move onto 2 BF and 0.2 Vodka from day 4


Steve

Genetics
01/08/2011, 10:48 AM
Sounds like a good plan. If you continue this as a journal it can be moved into Reef Discussion or another forum and just go from there so don't worry about it.

Remember to look at the base of your corals and the GHA as often as you can.

Genetics
01/08/2011, 10:50 AM
Sorry DP

Steve Wright2
01/08/2011, 11:54 AM
Sounds like a good plan. If you continue this as a journal it can be moved into Reef Discussion or another forum and just go from there so don't worry about it.

Remember to look at the base of your corals and the GHA as often as you can.

Thank you Genetics
will do , on the coral base and GHA

Steve

Steve Wright2
01/10/2011, 03:20 AM
update

today was 1st day of not using any bio fuel
yesterday I dosed 1ml bio fuel and 0.2ml vodka

I dosed 0.3ml of Vodka only today

the difference will not be easy to appreciate from these images
and I cannot define in exact words what I am seeing
the best description I can think of is a TV setting analogy

the colours are the same, the brightness is the same but the contrast seems to have improved - dont know if that makes any sense ?

I did not set tri pod up for these, or turn off flow, or even clean the glass

http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx303/meilong2/IMG_3674.jpg
http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx303/meilong2/IMG_3677.jpg
http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx303/meilong2/IMG_3678.jpg

I will be staying at the 0.3ml for another couple of days

Tank seems weaned off bio fuel and now on normal Vodka dosing course

Steve

Genetics
01/10/2011, 05:01 AM
Give your tank a few days to settle in at that dose and then go from there.

Steve Wright2
01/10/2011, 05:59 AM
Give your tank a few days to settle in at that dose and then go from there.

will do

was going to follow your day 1,2 and 3 at 0.1ml per 25 gallon
then days 4,5,6 and 7 double up to 0.2ml per gallon
then following week add 0.5ml
and continue with that plan until the tank achieved the appearance I am looking for
after that - half the dose and continue with that new half dose whilst continuing measuring N and P

have I interpretted it correctly?

Steve

Nanook
01/10/2011, 09:45 AM
[moved]

Steve Wright2
01/10/2011, 09:47 AM
Thank you Nanook

Steve

Anemonebuff
01/10/2011, 10:23 AM
I just started dosing vodka last week and the water is much clearer. So far that is all I noticed. I added new sand over the last 2 months and have small patches of cyano. Hopefully over the next two weeks it will go away.

Steve Wright2
01/17/2011, 01:55 AM
Update
now on day 3 of the 1.1ml of Vodka

no major negatives experienced as yet
zero cyno, zero cloudy water and coral colouration is still as it should be
water clarity improved
sand bed looks cleaner

only minor issue thus far is a slight bacteria bio mass on some of the rockwork

I will continue on the 1.1ml dose for a bit longer than the suggested week in the dosing plan I am following from Vodka dosing distilled
and will monitor the bio film and decrease dosing if it increases its presence

Steve

d0ughb0y
01/17/2011, 02:25 AM
I used to use bio fuel, everything was fine, just like with OP.
Then once my bio fuel was used up, I got cheap and went with vodka instead.
I think it was a mistake. vodka is essentially a trial and error method. by the time you figured your proper dose, you are already overdosing by twice the amount (besides, how do you determine your dose if you start with 0 Nitrate and 0 phosphate), and it will be too late and you will start seeing the usual problems described for vodka dosing.
I have since switched back to bio fuel. vodka would not be so bad if there was a more precise instructions like for bio fuel, like x ml per gallon, instead of the trial and error procedure. even if you have determined the maintenance dosage for vodka, you may still need to tweak from time to time.

if you are using biofuel and tank is already clean with 0 n and p, then it is definitely not worth the risk of switching to vodka and getting cyano outbreak. it is not fun to deal with it.

Steve Wright2
01/17/2011, 06:39 AM
I used to use bio fuel, everything was fine, just like with OP.
Then once my bio fuel was used up, I got cheap and went with vodka instead.
I think it was a mistake. vodka is essentially a trial and error method. by the time you figured your proper dose, you are already overdosing by twice the amount (besides, how do you determine your dose if you start with 0 Nitrate and 0 phosphate), and it will be too late and you will start seeing the usual problems described for vodka dosing.
I have since switched back to bio fuel. vodka would not be so bad if there was a more precise instructions like for bio fuel, like x ml per gallon, instead of the trial and error procedure. even if you have determined the maintenance dosage for vodka, you may still need to tweak from time to time.

if you are using biofuel and tank is already clean with 0 n and p, then it is definitely not worth the risk of switching to vodka and getting cyano outbreak. it is not fun to deal with it.

IMO
there are precise instructions depending on the % proof of the vodka being used

Im using 80% proof
days 1,2 and 3 = 0.1ml per 3each 25 gallons salt water
days , 4,5,6 and 7 0.2ml per each 25 gallons saltwater
week 2 - add 0.5ml - irrespective of tank volume
and then add 0.5ml -irrespective of tank volume on each subsequent week

bio fuel was certainly a good product IMO
but it has failed after 6 weeks to improve on the general aesthetics of the tank that it achieved within 1st , x 2 weeks of use

having dealt with cyno occasionally in my time with salt water set ups
I can say that if thats the extent of the problems I might happen across
then I will deal with it in the same manner as I have dealt with it previously
(look at flow, syphon at water change, look at frequency of GFO changes or amount being used , bolster CUC etc etc


Steve

d0ughb0y
01/17/2011, 09:15 AM
You left out the trial and error part of the instructions, which is to stop increasing when N and P start going down, then cut the dosage in half. That clearly is overdosing by twice the amount, not to mention you don't really know your correct dosage if you started with 0 N and P. There will always be the risk of getting cyano, etc.

tmz
01/17/2011, 10:31 AM
Any product relying on organic carbon dosing, including Biofuel will require adjustment as each tank is different in a number of ways. When using of generic products like ethanol, acetic acid ,sugar, vitamin C, polymers etc, at least you know what you are adding to your tank.

d0ughb0y
01/18/2011, 02:18 AM
ok, that makes sense. so all methods involve some degree of trial and error, including vodka. Vodka dosing would not be so bad if the part about overdosing twice the maintenance amount can be avoided, as that pretty much almost make the likelihood of running into problems almost certain, and by the time you realize it, it is already too late. perhaps some long time vodka dosers can come up with a more refined instructions. I think even sunnyx ran into the vodka dosing problems.

tmz
01/18/2011, 11:01 AM
I've been dosing vodka for 2 years . While I amped it up slowly , I never cut back. After about 6 mos , I did substitute 64 ml of vinegar,reducing my vokda dosing from 34 ml to 26ml. This step reduced the small amounts of patchy cyano to virtually none.
I think reducing the NO3 and PO4 to reasonable levels (say NO3 <10ppm and PO4 < 0.l5ppm) via water changes, gfo,etc before starting a carbon dosing regimen to maintain them is a good strategy which obviates the need to cut back and lessens risks of overdosing. . In an application where the amount of carbon initially dosed is high enough to reduce high NO3, the cut back accounts for the lesser ongoing NO3 anticipated going forward.

Steve Wright2
01/27/2011, 10:14 PM
update

up to 1.6mls per day now on my set up
still no negatives ( no cyno as yet Doughboy)

http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx303/meilong2/IMG_3846.jpg
I am achieving improvement in reduction of the green/ black turf and micro algaes that where my reason for carbon dosing
which has naturally freed up real estate for increased coraline growth

http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx303/meilong2/IMG_3840.jpg
Im also getting more intense color on many of my SPS corals

Steve

creefer01
01/28/2011, 07:32 AM
Continuing to follow. I have been using bio fuel and have been somewhere between the starting dosage and maintenance dosage and have not yet cut back. Coloration is good in SPS however reason for not cutting back is that I still have signs of some miro algae. I was at maintenance dosage for a while then had an algae outbreak and increase dosage. That was several weeks ago and since have seen tremendous improvement in coraline growth.

I'm still very intrigued by the idea of vodka dosing and the cleanliness it creates. It may be that when changing from bio fuel to vodka with 0 N & P you may be able to start at the maintenance dosage as recommended by Vodka Distilled and watch closely for changes. I also think that it makes sense to do what Steve did by slowly increasing vodka volume while decreasing bio fuel volume to mitigate any potential issues with changing "cold turkey", if you will.

Good work, Steve. I will continue following.

Steve Wright2
01/29/2011, 12:48 AM
Thank you Creefer01

I cant take the credit for it
I got good advice on this thread from a couple of people who obviously know what they are doing

Steve

creefer01
01/29/2011, 11:03 AM
There are quite a few here who do. It's a great place to learn, that's for sure.

Steve Wright2
02/03/2011, 01:54 AM
update
started dosing yesterday at 2.1ml per day
which I split into 2 doses of 1.1 and then 1ml between 8 - 10 hours apart

http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx303/meilong2/IMG_3971.jpg
the GHA continues to fade away on the wavemaker

http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx303/meilong2/IMG_3973.jpg
there is a definite shifting from green/black to purple on the rockwork

http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx303/meilong2/IMG_3945.jpg
corals are continuing to color up, with tip color now progressing further down the branches

http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx303/meilong2/IMG_3947.jpg
even corals that prior to Vodka dosing that showed very little color at all are beginning to show signs of appreciating the conditions

Steve

creefer01
02/10/2011, 08:27 AM
Steve,

Any updates? I'm interested to know where you stand and how the change has worked for you thus far? MB7 & Biofuel is still working ok for me but I think I could get better results using vodka as my carbon source. Are you noticing any ill effects to LPS? Have you had to dose any aminos to support color?

Thanks in advance for the update.