Peroxide and the Kiss of Death (Dinoflagellates)

[austin93]

I am sadly faced with the crazy realization that I should begin dosing hydrogen peroxide in my reef to combat my :uzi:dinoflagellate problems (the Kiss of Death). I have researched this to the best of my ability and feel it may be safe. Notice I say "may", because I really don't know. After researching this potential solution for a while I realize that there isn't any clear place to go for sharing knowledge about this method. I figure here is a good place. I will take a few pictures tonight of the current situation and after I dose. I am in no way recommending this to anyone and I didn't originate the idea. I expect to be criticized:thumbdown by my peers and I suppose thats OK. If anyone has any experience with this method, please chime in. I have noticed an increase in posts relating to this in a lot of places so I hope this thread will consolidate those experiences.

[TheH]

What is the logic behind this?

[austin93]

From what I know it kills free floating dinos in the tank.

[Aqua_DHMO_Tech]

Never heard of this before, but just did a quick and un-thorough google search and it seems some people have used it for killing dinoflagellates as well as dipping coral plugs that are plagged with algae... I wonder what the effects are on the numerous upon numerous micro organisms that live in our tanks- various pod populations, nitrifying/denitrifying bacteria, zooxanthellae, etc?

[austin93]

Aren't zooanthellia (sp) a type of dino?

[HighlandReefer]

I am sadly faced with the crazy realization that I should begin dosing hydrogen peroxide in my reef to combat my :uzi:dinoflagellate problems (the Kiss of Death). I have researched this to the best of my ability and feel it may be safe. Notice I say "may", because I really don't know. After researching this potential solution for a while I realize that there isn't any clear place to go for sharing knowledge about this method. I figure here is a good place. I will take a few pictures tonight of the current situation and after I dose. I am in no way recommending this to anyone and I didn't originate the idea. I expect to be criticized:thumbdown by my peers and I suppose thats OK. If anyone has any experience with this method, please chime in. I have noticed an increase in posts relating to this in a lot of places so I hope this thread will consolidate those experiences.

Personally I would not use Hydrogen peroxide in a reef tank since it will kill living tissues and has been reported in research to cause problems for many coral when dosed at low levels.

That said, some have mentioned they use it in a syringe and squirt a small amount directly on the pest, but how they dilute it and how often they use it was not mentioned. I know freshwater hobbyists have used hydrogen peroxide for algae control successfully.

[austin93]

I respect your opinion greatly, and would agree that it seems like a dangerous idea. I have not found a single report that indicates anything but success. I tried it on a frag plug and saw the dinos dissolve and the zoa's do better than they have in a while. It reaches a point of desperation I think. I will shut the lights off one more time and hold off on the peroxide for a few days. I hope this thread convinces a few people to post their experience with this method.

[HighlandReefer]

You may want to check in the macroalgae and marine plants forum. I believe that is where I have seen some hobbyists try hydrogen peroxide for mostly algae control directly in a reef tank. Applying it to frag plugs where you can rinse it off out of the tank would be much safer. I have yet to see any posts where hobbyists have tried it directly in a reef tank here in the Chemistry Forum. ;)

[Genetics]

I've heard of this method but have had some reservations about it in the past. Looking through some other pages, it does appear to work from a good many number of people. Right now it looks like people are experimenting with 0.5-1mL of hydrogen peroxide to 10 gallons of water in the aquarium. After a few days the dinoflagellates are noticeably decreased. However, I don't know what happens if people stop dosing. Do they return?

Edit: After thinking about this a bit more, I really worry that this could seriously wreak havoc on an aquarium. For the most part, I think people were using as a dipping method. The recent addition to the reef is a new twist.

[wickedfish]

There was already a peroxide thread last week bud. I think most people just were at wits end when they did it, but had success. If your reef is suffering dinos due to adding or subtracting something in your chemistry it will go back to normal once you repopulate what you killed.

If you don't care about microfauna and other microorganisms in your tank, peroxide it up. I think pittbullover wrote the "recommended" doses. You were warned by Cliff though on what will undoubtedly happen.

[Genetics]

I respect your opinion greatly, and would agree that it seems like a dangerous idea. I have not found a single report that indicates anything but success. I tried it on a frag plug and saw the dinos dissolve and the zoa's do better than they have in a while. It reaches a point of desperation I think. I will shut the lights off one more time and hold off on the peroxide for a few days. I hope this thread convinces a few people to post their experience with this method.

Any chance to get before and after pictures when you use the hydrogen peroxide?

[HighlandReefer]

If people want to be a Guinea pig and perfect a dosage rate that seems to work for the most part, I would be interested. :)

FWIW I have seen hobbyists loose organisms using antibiotics for cyano control. Still when hobbyist reach at point of desperation, I think they may be willing to try anything. I would remove any expensive fish and coral if you can before you try it though. ;)

Now that I think of it, Boomer has mentioned in a post a while back where there was a commercial hydrogen peroxide product with dosing recommendations on it, but I can't find it now.

[HighlandReefer]

FWIW,

Hydrogen Peroxide for Power Outages
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1469786&highlight=hydrogen+peroxide

from it:

Boomer's reply for this usage:

5 ml of what % H2O2 ? The kind you get at the drugstore @ 3% peroxide ?


In Koi ponds they use 10 teaspoons / 50 gal at times


Typically 0.05 times your tank volume in liters assuming 3% solution. So a 60L (16 gal) tank would need 0.05 × 60L = 3ml per 12 hours or 10ml /50 gal or 1 teaspoon / 25 gal. This would be safer doing it as a 12 hr drip. The issue will always be what is the O2 in the tank when added. You may want to buy an inexpensive O2 kit to be safe.

In general 1 ml added per 30 Liters (8 gal) will increase total peroxide levels by 1 mg/l




I forgot, 5 ml / 50 gal should be fine with no issues, just add it slowly



__________________
If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Seawater Chemistry, Geology, ID Marine Life, Collecting Science Books, Explosives Technology, Audiophile



An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[austin93]

As it stands I am not interested in taking an uncalculated risk. I have been following some others experience on another board and think its a very interesting option. I would gladly provide a link via pm if anyone is interested.

[austin93]

Wouldn't that seem to imply its safe at the appropriate dosage?

[Frogmanx82]

The problem with peroxide is that organisms build resistance to it. What you don't kill will take that much more peroxide next time. I'm sure there is a dose that would give you some benefit, but its not all that selective in what it kills. In a reef tank filled with micro fauna, it doesn't seem like a good risk to me.

[austin93]

It seems to me that this would be less damaging to organisms that aren't single celled. I thought dinos were generally very simple organisms.

[Frogmanx82]

It seems to me that this would be less damaging to organisms that aren't single celled. I thought dinos were generally very simple organisms.

Your tank is filled with lots of simple organisms like algae and bacteria. Peroxide in a high enough dose will kill them and that dose is low enough so fish and other higher order organisms wouldn't be affected. Determining that dose is the problem, and you won't be dosing enough for a 100% kill. Survivors will be tougher to kill with peroxide as they can produce an enzyme that destroys the peroxide.

[HighlandReefer]

Wouldn't that seem to imply its safe at the appropriate dosage?

Not necessarily. This is a thread posted earlier with Randy's and Boomer's comments regarding using peroxide in a reef tank. Boomer also provides a link regarding its effects on coral:

Hydrogen peroxides effect in salt water.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1863758&highlight=hydrogen+peroxide

From it Randy's post:

"I don't see any benefit from using it, unless you are in an emergency situation like a power failure.

There are many effects of hydrogen peroxide, not all of which are positive. It impacts the availability and oxidation state of metals like copper and iron (potentially for the better or worse, depending on the metal and its concentration).

here's an example relating to a coral and decreased growth:

The synergistic effects of hydrogen peroxide and elevated seawater temperature on the metabolic activity of the coral Galaxea fascicularis
Tomihiko Higuchi, Hiroyuki Fujimura, Takemitsu Arakaki, and Tamotsu Oomori
Journal Marine Biology
Publisher Springer Berlin / Heidelberg
ISSN 0025-3162 (Print) 1432-1793 (Online)
Issue Volume 156, Number 4 / March, 2009

Abstract We examined quantitative changes in the metabolism of the coral Galaxea fascicularis caused by increases in both hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) concentration and seawater temperature. Seawater temperatures were maintained at 27 or 31°C in a well-controlled incubation chamber, and three levels of H2O2 concentration (0, 0.3, 3.0 μM) were used in experimental treatments. Gross primary production, calcification rates and respiration rates were all affected by increased H2O2 concentrations and high seawater temperatures. Individual treatments of high H2O2 or elevated seawater temperature alone caused significant declines in coral photosynthesis and calcification rates within the 3-day incubation period. The synergistic effect of high H2O2 combined with high seawater temperature resulted in a 134% increase in respiration rates, which surpassed the effect of either H2O2 or high seawater temperature alone. Our results suggest that both high H2O2 concentrations and elevated temperatures in seawater can strongly affect coral metabolism; however, these effects cannot be estimated by simply summing the effects of individual stress parameters."



__________________
Randy Holmes-Farley
Club 65535

Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

[HighlandReefer]

"It impacts the availability and oxidation state of metals like copper and iron (potentially for the better or worse, depending on the metal and its concentration)."

I assume the implications from Randy's statement is in regards to the high levels of copper & other heavy metals found in most reef tanks. In our tanks these heavy metals are quickly tied to organic molecules which makes them much less toxic to our reef organisms. However, when peroxide is added it can break the heavy metals from the organic molecule and leave these heavy metals in a much more toxic state which can kill or damage many organisms in a reef tank. ;)

[sneeyatch]

Cliff and a few others have probably seen my posts about using Algaefix to kill bryopsis, hyposalinity, etc. somewhat recently. My tank has become pretty much a science experiment since there are no corals, inverts (and now) fish.

I thought I was dealing with a very stubborn strain of cyano a while back only to find out they were dino's. Thinking it was cyano, I started dosing a bacterial additive and started vodka dosing only to watch the dino's population explode. A buddy of mine in our local club turned me on to a thread on another website which gave someone else's experiences using 3% H2O2 for battling dino's. He said that he found some old thread or paper, or talked to a Bio professor or something - I can't remember... Anyway, the recommended dosage for what he used was 1ml per 10 gallons of actual water volume. In reading through the long thread, others started dosing and giving their experiences - most were very positive stating that within 3 to 4 days, the dino population was significantly stunted. I figured "why not" since there's no real livestock in my system other than nitrifying bacteria.

I specifically did not siphon out any dinos or cyano to see what the reults would be and I continued with my normal photoperiod to see what this stuff would do to a "healthy dino" population. Now, I do not have photos to support my findings, but after 2 days, my cyano growth was significantly (I would say at least a third) decreased. My dino growth appeared to have slowed or stopped. By the third day, cyano was reduced even more and I was able to see the telltale signs of the dino's dying off (clear / milky white color change) in certain areas. Since I don't have anything to lose in my system, I decided to double the dosage at that point - standard dose in the morning and another standard dose in the evening. After another 2 days, the thick brown mat across the sandbed was thinning out.

This lead me up to last weekend, where I did the following:

1.) I completely removed about 1 - 2 inches of substrate, sucking all the dino's and cyano I could find - saving the old water.
2.) I pumped the old water back into the tank, filtering it as I went with (2) 200 micron (I think) socks placed inside each other.
3.) Lights out since then - will be for 1 full week then I will start a normal photoperiod.
4.) Continue dosing peroxide at standard dose - 1x per day.
5.) Running UV 24/7.
6.) Running my skimmer wetter than normal.

All in all, I think dosing peroxide works. It may work slower or faster depending on exactly what you're dealing with. My population was nasty, thick and just plain funky. I can't tell what effect it has on corals or inverts since there were none in my system, but according to others' claims, it seems there is little effect if any. One guy has an ORP monitor hooked up to his system and it measured severe drops in ORP as soon as it was dosed and he published his graph on that website showing the drops. I did not measure anything while dosing.

Anyway, these are my experiences - not scientific by any means, but I take pride in telling the truth - even to a fault.

[austin93]

I have read the same thing about 1ml to 10gal. I am thinking about setting up a 29 g reef w/o any fish, just some frags and live rock to see if I can try this method in a more controlled method. Might be a safer way to go for the short run.

Sneeyatch, thanks for posting your experiences. That is my hope for this thread is that we can share peoples thoughts in one place to make it easier for those to research what is best for their tank.

I personally am still a little scared. Actually more so now than when I made my first post. I figure that corals and snails are dying anyway, so it might be a good plan. I am just starting a 3 day lights out period so we will see how that goes before I go for the kill.

[sneeyatch]

If I were dealing with it in a fully stocked system, I would suck all of them out that I possibly could, then go lights out and begin peroxide dosing at 1ml / 10 gallons. When you add it, I would add it to the sump or in an area where it would dilute or dissipate before it could come in contact with any desirable organism.

[austin93]

Thats the plan if I see anything return.

[Nomad37]

I'm currently dosing the same amount as sneeyach in my 185. I have 4 fish and a handful of frags. At the point I decided to do it, the frags were dying a slow death anyway from the dinos. I started with the regular photo period but was losing the battle but at s slower rate than previously seen. I switched to actinics only but only slowed the progression. Today I started with lights out again. I think the dosage needs to be applied during a lights out period to get the upper hand. I can say that during this week of dosing with some of the lights on that the frags are in recovery and are showing much better polyp extension and even laying down new growth as the dino have not consumed them as they did not long ago. I plan to stop the dosing after I reach a period of showing no more signs of the dinos as some have talked about a maintenance dosing program. There could be benefits I guess but I'm not wiling to try them long term. I have never had to do that in the past but I have also never had to deal with anything this difficult either. Just my two cents.

Mike

[chuckreef]

I personally am still a little scared. Actually more so now than when I made my first post. I figure that corals and snails are dying anyway, so it might be a good plan. I am just starting a 3 day lights out period so we will see how that goes before I go for the kill.

Have you considered or tried using an ozonizer?
I think you may have a lot better control and may achieve more constant and more gradual results.

[TheH]

I still don't understand the proposed mechanism of action? Is it to increase dissolved oxygen? Lower pH?

[HighlandReefer]

H2O2-Induced Inhibition of Photosynthetic O2 Evolution by Anabaena variabilis Cells
http://www.springerlink.com/content/w0252363972884x7/

Abstract

Hydrogen peroxide inhibits photosynthetic O2 evolution. It has been shown that H2O2 destroys the function of the oxygen-evolving complex (OEC) in some chloroplast and Photosystem (PS) II preparations causing release of manganese from the OEC. In other preparations, H2O2 did not cause or caused only insignificant release of manganese. In this work, we tested the effect of H2O2 on the photosynthetic electron transfer and the state of OEC manganese in a native system (intact cells of the cyanobacterium Anabaena variabilis). According to EPR spectroscopy data, H2O2 caused an increase in the level of photooxidation of P700, the reaction centers of PS I, and decreased the rate of their subsequent reduction in the dark by a factor larger than four. Combined effect of H2O2, CN–, and EDTA caused more than eight- to ninefold suppression of the dark reduction of P700+. EPR spectroscopy revealed that the content of free (or loosely bound) Mn2+ in washed cyanobacterial cells was 20% of the total manganese pool. This content remained unchanged upon the addition of CN– and increased to 25-30% after addition of H2O2. The content of the total manganese decreased to 35% after the treatment of the cells with EDTA. The level of the H2O2-induced release of manganese increased after the treatment of the cells with EDTA. Incubation of cells with H2O2 for 2 h had no effect on the absorption spectra of the photosynthetic pigments. More prolonged incubation with H2O2 (20 h) brought about degradation of phycobilins and chlorophylla and lysis of cells. Thus, H2O2 causes extraction of manganese from cyanobacterial cells, inhibits the OEC activity and photosynthetic electron transfer, and leads to the destruction of the photosynthetic apparatus. H2O2 is unable to serve as a physiological electron donor in photosynthesis.

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Hydrogen Peroxide Inhibits Photosynthetic Electron Transport in Cells of Cyanobacteria
http://www.springerlink.com/content/k8857r1501213202/

Abstract

The effect of H2O2 on photosynthetic O2 evolution and photosynthetic electron transfer in cells of cyanobacteria Anabaena variabilis and Anacystis nidulans was studied. The following experiments were performed: 1) directly testing the effect of exogenous H2O2; 2) testing the effect of intracellular H2O2 generated with the use of methyl viologen (MV); 3) testing the effect of inhibiting intracellular H2O2 decomposition by salicylic acid (SA) and 3-amino-1,2,4-triazole (AT). H2O2 inhibited photosynthetic O2 evolution and light-induced reduction of p-benzoquinone (BQ) + ferricyanide (FeCy) in the Hill reaction. The I50 value for H2O2 was 0.75 mM. Photosynthetic electron transfer in the cells treated with H2O2 was not maintained by H2O2, NH2OH, 1,5-diphenylcarbazide, tetraphenylboron, or butylated hydroxytoluene added as artificial electron donors for Photosystem (PS) II. The H2O CO2, H2O MV (involving PSII and PSI) and H2O BQ + FeCy (chiefly dependent on PSII) electron transfer reactions were inhibited upon incubation of the cells with MV, SA, or AT. The N,N,N",N"-tetramethyl-p-phenylenediamine MV (chiefly dependent on PSI) electron transfer was inhibited by SA and AT but was resistant to MV. The results show that H2O2 inhibits photosynthetic electron transfer. It is unlikely that H2O2 could be a physiological electron donor in oxygenic photosynthesis.

[neoalchemist74]

Tagging along!

[TheH]

So for still unknown reasons, H2O2 causes cyanobacterial cells to pump out manganese and this disrupts the manganese-dependent steps of their photosynthetic processes?

I see that the IC50 is 0.75 mM? So we are looking at about 97 mg pure h2o2 per gallon? Is that in line with current recommendations?

[HighlandReefer]

Another angle that may come into play since peroxide may increase toxic copper ions. Too many factors come into play when using hydrogen peroxide, which would need to be taken into consideration to come up with a dosing regime, especially in a reef tank containing coral with symbionts. ;)


Early stage toxicity of excess copper to photosystem II of Chlorella pyrenoidosa–OJIP chlorophyll a fluorescence analysis
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B8CX4-4XP2B28-J&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2009&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1597167663&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8c0ec33f4ccb2d356e17a069178d558f&searchtype=a

Received 11 December 2008; revised 24 February 2009; accepted 20 March 2009. Available online 13 November 2009.

Abstract

Acute toxicity of excess Cu on the photosynthetic performance of Chlorella pyrenoidosa was examined by using chlorophyll a fluorescence transients and JIP-test after exposure to elevated Cu concentrations for a short time period. High Cu concentration resulted in a significant suppression in photosynthesis and respiration. The absorption flux (ABS/RC) per PSII reaction center increased with increasing Cu concentration, but the electron transport flux (ET0/RC) decreased. Excess Cu had an insignificant effect on the trapping flux (TR0/RC). The decline in the efficiency, with which a trapped exciton can move an electron into the electron transport chain further than QA−(Ψ0), the maximal quantum yield of primary photochemistry (P0), and the quantum yield of electron transport (E0) were also observed. The amount of active PSII reaction centers per excited cross section (RC/CS) was also in consistency with the change of photosynthesis when cells were exposed to excess Cu concentration. JIP-test parameters had a good linear relationship with photosynthetic O2 evolution. These results suggested that the decrease of photosynthesis in exposure to excess Cu may be a result of the inactivation of PSII reaction centers and the inhibition of electron transport in the acceptor side.

[steve9]

Run your orp to its upper levels and it always takes care of
slime/dino etc.
Go slow and somewhere between 450/500 orp will take care of it......
Your fish will act crazy when you get to high then back off a little always works for me.

[HighlandReefer]

Steve,

Which method do you use to increase ORP, ozone?

[HighlandReefer]

This chapter starts on page 125 of the pdf file.

CHAPTER 10

Photodynamic impact of hydrogen peroxide–complex assessment of algicidal agent on Microcystis aeruginosa physiology
http://is.muni.cz/th/63649/prif_d/disertacedoISU.pdf#page=125

from muni.czP Mikula, Š Zezulka, D Jančula… - of dissertation thesis …, 2010


Abstract
Aim of our study was to investigate mechanisms of hydrogen peroxide toxicity using physiological parameters in Microcystis aeruginosa exposed in the dark or on light and to evaluate relationships between parameter changes and the kinetics of hydrogen peroxide decomposition. On light (irradiance 140 μmol m-2 s-1), cyanobacteria were exposed to initial concentrations of 0.00 (control), 0.75, 2.00, and 4.00 mg L-1 respectively, in the dark
(irradiance 0 μmol m-2 s-1), concentrations were ten times higher. Using flow cytometry and chlorophyll a fluorescence measurements our results suggested that hydrogen peroxide exposure elicits immediate decline of metabolic (esterase) activity measured as fluorescein fluorescence after fluorescein diacetate (FDA) hydrolysis and changes of chlorophyll a fluorescence parameters followed by the decrease of cell viability expressed as the
percentage of membrane-compromised (SYTOX Green positive) cells. In case of the exposure concentration used was lethal (i.e. in two highly exposed groups on light) significant drop in total cell counts was detected, while in other groups this drop was not observed during entire experimental period (72 hours). Our study also confirmed that the presence of light is one of critical factors in hydrogen peroxide decomposition that highly influences its toxicity. On light, cyanobacteria exposed to 0.75 mg L-1 recovered afterward all hydrogen peroxide decomposed and at the end of the experiment their physiological parameters were even better than in control. In the dark, hydrogen peroxide decomposed relatively slowly and its toxic effects on cyanobacteria were observed during whole 72 hours without clear lethality in any experimental concentration.




Results of our experiments showed that light represents one of the critical factors concerning H2O2 toxicity in cyanobacteria. In spite of the fact that in the dark ten times higher initial concentrations of hydrogen peroxide were used toxic effects of this substance on exposed cyanobacteria were not as significant and fast as in light regime. Such result can be explained by differences in H2O2 decomposition in both experimental regimes, since in
the dark H2O2 decomposition proceeds more slowly than in the case of light.

Our results confirmed the fact that illuminated by light, cyanobacterial cells are involved in hydrogen peroxide decomposition which rate in cyanobacterial suspension is significantly higher than in cell-free medium. On the other hand, contribution of Microcystis aeruginosa in hydrogen peroxide decomposition in the dark is minor, since statistically significant differences
between cyanobacterial suspensions and cell-free medium were detected only in some of experimental groups and measurement times. Above-mentioned observations can be explained by the characteristics of ROS defense mechanisms.

In cyanobacteria, several groups of enzymes participate in hydrogen peroxide detoxication. Peroxiredoxins are the only peroxide-degrading enzymes found in all cyanobacterial genomes sequenced so far and probably only peroxide-degrading enzymes which genes are expressed in Microcystis aeruginosa (reviewed in Bernroitner et al., 2009). It was demonstrated on Synechococcus
sp. strain PCC 7942 that whereas thioredoxin peroxidase-like enzyme was crucial for growth under high-light conditions, catalase-peroxidase is essential for survival and the elimination of relatively high concentrations of externally added H2O2 (Perelman et al.,2003). In spite of the fact that the knowledge about Microcystis and its ROS defense mechanisms is scarce, based on our results it can be proposed that in this cyanobacterial species some light-dependent hydrogen-peroxide degrading enzymes may also exist.


Conclusions

Our experiments confirmed the hypothesis that changes in hydrogen peroxide
decomposition kinetics in different illumination highly influence toxicity of tested substance. The decomposition rate of hydrogen peroxide was strongly dependent on the illumination intensity. While on permanent light (i.e. in the irradiance of 140 μmol m-2 s-1) the decomposition of H2O2 was rapid, in the dark (i.e. in 0 μmol m-2 s-1) it proceeded relatively slowly. Afterward all hydrogen peroxide decomposed, cyanobacteria exposed to its sublethal concentration (0.75 mg L-1) recovered and their physiological parameters were
even better than in control. Metabolic activity and parameters of induced chlorophyll a fluorescence represent most sensitive biomarkers of the exposure of cyanobacteria to the hydrogen peroxide. While the earliest changes of these parameters have been already observed after one hour of the exposure (i.e. during the first measurements after the experiment started), changes in percentage of membrane-compromised (non-viable) cells
were detected for the first time after 5 hours of the exposure. Changes in this parameter precede the cell death in two highly exposed groups from the light regime (i.e. 2.00 and 4.00 mg L-1), however the exposure period of 72 hour was not long enough to observe such effect in cyanobacteria from any other experimental group exposed to the H2O2 in the dark. In spite of the fact that more than 99.5 % cells from two highly exposed groups (20.00 and 140 40.00 mg L-1) were membrane-compromised, no significant decline in total cyanobacterial counts appeared.

The present study is the first detailed experimental assessment of the effects of potential algicide hydrogen peroxide on the metabolic activity and the cell viability of cyanobacteria in different illumination regimes. Despite the fact that our study provided several interesting results, future studies should be carried out to investigate properly and in more details toxic
effects of hydrogen peroxide in other species of cyanobacteria as well as non-target species.

[sneeyatch]

Run your orp to its upper levels and it always takes care of
slime/dino etc.
Go slow and somewhere between 450/500 orp will take care of it......
Your fish will act crazy when you get to high then back off a little always works for me.

I read in Reefkeeping Magazine that ORP and pH levels are almost exact opposite reactions? I could be wrong, or the article could be completely outdated or wrong, but when ORP levels were high, the pH would drop. If you're driving your ORP to the upper limits, wouldn't you be driving your pH to the lower limits too? Maybe that's why your fish are freaking out when you do it? Additionally, I thought that most simple celled organisms are pretty much "pH balanced" and any major shifts could cause major disruptions to their entire being.

Again, I could be wrong and probably am, but that's what I've been told and what I've read.

[tmz]

Here is the relevant quate from Randy's atricle on ORP, fyi:

What about pH? pH can impact the ORP readings in aquaria. Often, ORP goes down as pH rises. A typical aquarium ORP reading will change on the order of 59 mv/pH unit. The easiest way to understand this is to simply think of pH as a measure of hydrogen ions (H+) in solution, and to think of H+ as being on the side of the oxidizers. In reality, H+ doesn't usually oxidize things itself (though it can), but more typically it can hype up other oxidizers, like oxygen, making them much more potent. So during the course of a 24-hour day in a reef aquarium, ORP will vary as pH and O2 also vary.
Note ph often impacts the orp reading not necessarily the other way around.

[philosophile]

So I've been dosing peroxide to kill cyano.... Here are my results so far:

http://waynesreef.blogspot.com/2011/01/peroxide-experiment.html

[petrio]

i used it in my 120 Sps tank and the one problem is that you need to have twice if not a bit more of water movement or another source to put more oxygen in your tank or it could kill some corals for lack of oxygen!!

[alexander_ktn]

There is a huge thread on peroxide dosing in the nano section of RC.
At least 2 people lost almost all livestock while dosing the whole tank.

What's considered safe and effective is direct application of H2O2 outside of the tank.

[brandon429]

please post where those two losses occurred and if it was a massive overdose when that occured

[brandon429]

I find the bulk of treaters in that thread to be in-tank doses and not externally. They want the least work approach lol yes I prefer external treatments. there is a recent thread in the chem forum here too about dinos, on page two, where peroxide use in tank among full coral loading is reviewed. I dont rate its efficacy all that high for dino targets. it has worked really well in some tanks, as noted by others, but after a couple years it doesnt seem like the go to juice for all dinos. we keep getting combinations of things that seem to work better, namely lights out and pH boosts if natural courses dont take care of things

[alexander_ktn]

please post where those two losses occurred and if it was a massive overdose when that occured

I read about them in your(?) thread in the nano-section. One was a tank with lots of Neomeris and there was another one. I'm only online via my mobile atm, so it's hard to find the posts.

Those might well have been cases of overdose if one considers the results. ;)

[brandon429]

yes that was the case, we have about 4 heinous overdoses so far, its amazing to see what lives and what doesn't. the one thing I wonder in all this peroxide treatment is if we are making animals evolve in our tanks in such a way as to be resistant. so far, ive found nobody resistant of 35 % lol. Im not sure if peroxide/free radical resistance is a bad thing other than different treatment options will have to be found one day. GFO and phosphate stripping is definately not a cure all either, wonder where we will all be in 10 more years regarding bryopsis, dinos, red brush algae etc.

If its anything like the past, not much of a change. tanks still get wrecked by those daily per online posts and we've been keeping reefs what a good 25 yrs now on the whole/mass hobby spectrum?

[tmz]

FWIW,dosing in a reef tank is a poor , highly risky practice ,imo.

[likefish]

FWIW,dosing in a reef tank is a poor , highly risky practice ,imo.

I am a big fan TMZ, and have read, followed and practiced your C dosing thread. Your tanks are amazing and your contributions to the forum are greatly appreciated!

Have you battled dinos? If so what do you offer as a potential solution. I am fighting them now and have been for the past 4 months. I am sticking with manual removal but its getting old!!!!

I cam across this thread while searching peroxide dosing. This will be my nest step but i am very scarred and i will be dosing a 4 tank combined system totaling 240 gallons. 120 gallons of SPS, 60 gallons of LPS + BTA, 40 gallon frag tank.

any and all insight / links appreciated!!

[tmz]

Thanks;glad you enjoy the the C dosing thread.


Yes, I've had some but not a lot of experience getting them out of a tank.

I have gone after dinofalgellates in my friends lfs display tank several years ago . He keeps a very nice display tank with prime specimens .Sometimes he sells some .
In any case corals do move in an out with some frequency. On two occasions about a year apart a lot of dinos appeared on the rock and at the base of some corals. The tank is bare bottom but has a sand bed in the unlit sump.
I just sucked them out every few days with a turkey baster 4 times or so over the course of a week or two.
There were less each time . It took about 15 minutes each time . A little tedious, placing the turkey baster with the bulb squeezed down on the rock right at the base of the dino sucking it up and filling a large cup with the waste water and dinos about a dozen times.
We also raised the ph to 8.4/5 with a kalk drip . After that and the thorough removal efforts they did not come back. There are many strains of dinos and tanks are different ; so, I'm not sure this will work in every case but it worked for us.

I also had a few sneak in with a coral about a year ago in one of my displays. They disappeared in a few days, thankfully. My tanks run at about 8.15 to 8.35 pH daily swing and are dosed with vodka an vinegar which may or may not have something to do with it. I have never had a major outbreak but I might just be lucky. Probably jinxed myself now.

I found this article by Randy Farely helpful:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php

[fragbox]

please dont start dosing this
just do lights out for 3-4 days has always worked for me followed by large water changes

[bighaig]

I literally just dosed 3% peroxide three weeks ago to battle Dino. Nothing else worked for the last 5 months. I did 5 days lights out, I didn't cover glass to block ambient light. I dosed 14ml twice a day. Tank is 90g with 15g sump. No losses with fish, snails, crabs, star fish, softies or LPS. After the 5 days I dosed until the bottle finished. No Dino since lights back on. The Dino started when I started vodka dosing. Stopped that after a few weeks but Dino never left. It's been gone so far, but like I said it's only been a few days since I stopped the peroxide.

Everything has a risk and for me it was at a point of quit or get risky.

[hart24601]

I have been spot treating small algae outbreaks in my tank with peroxide for a couple of years now. I had bryopsis once and every so often it comes back, but a few ml of peroxide with the pumps off and it dies right back off. Not dino, but I wanted to say that I have never had a loss or even irritated coral when spot treating, I have used up to 10ml in 70g system. I have put it right at the base of acros with no trouble, near urchins with no effect and have several clams in the system that have never appeared to be disturbed. At least in moderate amounts it has been very safe and effective for me. It's now my "go to" treatment if I see even a hint of algae.

[jimrawr]

I had dinos in my previous tank some years ago. I was lucky and didnt have much coral at all, so I just did lights out for 7 days and they were completely gone and never came back. I didnt wrap the tank with a blanket or anything like that.

Good luck, dinos suck

[BrklynArch]

I posted this on a similar another thread a while back

this is a quick "to do when dino's appear list" .this is what I did.....
check out my thread here -

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22251818&postcount=139


1- a series (2 treatments 1 week apart) of 3 day blackouts

2- not doing water changes for a month or so (weekly water changes were fueling the algae growth)

3- changing my photo period ( cut down by an hour or so and reduced the intensity of my leds a bit)

4- manual removal of the offending crud (used a siphon connected to a filter sock back into the sump)

5- increased water flow (added a couple of power heads in the back corners of the tank)

6- hydrogen peroxide treatment ( 10ml once a day in the morning for about a week or so)
I didn't want to resort to any chemical remedies (ultra aglea x etc...) and the peroxide is the most extreme of what i did, but its actually very effective against nuisance algae.

also not sure if it had any effect but i also changed my salt mix from reef crystals to instant ocean.

I felt like the reef crystals had too many nutrients in the mix and was getting tired of cleaning out brown residue the mixing container accumulated if it was mixed for any longer than 24 hrs

[Royce7586]

When I had dinos I tried everything I could find and most things didn't work. I did the 1 ml to 10g peroxide with little effect. In my reasearch I came to the conclusion that there must be many different kinds of dinos. What finally got rid of them for me was removing my entire sand bed and changing about 75% of my water. What few were left died off and in about 2 months I added sand back in.

Don't do water changes they make them grow faster.

If you want to do peroxide take the rocks out and treat directly.

I never tried lights out but I think dinos are often misidentified because some people that did lights out would have success and then others would say they came back within a day to full force.

From my experience the only way to get rid of them for sure was to remove as much sources of nutrients as possible. If you do remove the sand bed and do a large water change you should also submerge each of your rocks in the old water and shake the crap out of them to try to get as much detritus out of them as possible