How do I lower alk in my salt mix

[ndh78]

I use reef crystals which has a pretty high alk level. I am now dosing two part to keep my alk up on a couple smaller tanks. Is there a way I can mix the salt to a lower sg and then add just salt to keep the alk down? I understand I will also be diluting the trace elements. Is there a better solution?

[HighlandReefer]

You can use Muriatic Acid (approximately 33%-35% HCL) bought from a hardware store, you will need to use approximately 0.123 ml of the Muriatic Acid to reduce 1 gallon of salt mix 1 dKH. I would only use half the amount at first, stir your salt mix thoroughly to allow CO2 to dissipate and then test your result to make sure.

So, if you want to reduce 20 gallons of salt mix say 5 dKH, than you would want to use:

20 X 5 X 0.123 = 12.3 ml of Muriatic Acid (approx. 33% HCL) to reduce 20 gal. 5 dKH (Use 1/2 of this amount to start with).

You need to mix the salt mix throughly to remove the CO2 produced from the reaction before you test for alk & add it to your tank.

I would not recommend reducing alk using this method in your tank with coral, fish and other organisms.

Caution needs to be taken when using Muriatic Acid, it will irritate the skin and can burn the eyes. Follow all labeled directions on the Muriatic Acid container purchased. You need to use Muriatic Acid in well ventilated areas. Never add water to the acid, alway add acid slowly to water to prevent possible explosions and sudden release of deadly gases.

[ndh78]

I just happen to have a gallon out in the shop. How much will it affect ph?

[bertoni]

The pH will drop for a bit, then rise back up to the normal range.

[ndh78]

Ok I tried the acid and it worked great it took about 20ml for my mixing barrel. I still have a ph problem though I can't get it over about 7.5. What should I do to raise the ph before I make a water change? I think if I buffer it and let it sit it will go back low before I use it.

[bertoni]

What is the dKH in the salt mix now? If it's low enough, you won't be able to raise the pH in any useful way. In that case, the pH won't much matter, in any case.

[wmdick_2007]

I hear reef crystals is around 13 dkh. I would mix normally and let the Alk fall by itself --- this doesn't take long in my tanks.

[HighlandReefer]

Ok I tried the acid and it worked great it took about 20ml for my mixing barrel. I still have a ph problem though I can't get it over about 7.5. What should I do to raise the ph before I make a water change? I think if I buffer it and let it sit it will go back low before I use it.

Perhaps more vigorous stirring will drive off the CO2 and elevate your pH. Adding a pump can help as well.

[Chris27]

If you're doing small water changes, ie. 20%, don't bother matching the pH of make up water to tank water, you'll drive yourself nuts. Salinity and temp are the important ones.....

[tmz]

Adding a buffer will raise the alkalinity which was just reduced. Aeration should drive off the excess CO2 as Cliff notes .

[Dark_Reef]

I picked up a few gallons of Muriatic Acid but it is only 31.5% HCL. What is the proper calculation or what it the calculation for different percentages of HCL?

[Haksar]

Thanks Cliff for the idea...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I picked up a few gallons of Muriatic Acid but it is only 31.5% HCL. What is the proper calculation or what it the calculation for different percentages of HCL?

You won't notice a difference from the concentration Cliff quoted. :)

[Dark_Reef]

The reason I was asking is because I seem to be needing more like .16 instead of .123 to get the alk lowered.

I just was wondering the correct calculation.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The theoretical correction is smaller than that, but neither the original calculation nor our alkalinity kits are going to allow super precision on these issues. :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The theoretical correction is smaller than that, but neither the original calculation nor our alkalinity kits are going to allow super precision on these issues. :)

[brad65ford]

Is there any negative reactions when added Muriatic Acid to the salt mix? I too have been wanting to lower my alk in my salt mixing since I run mt sps tank at 8.5-9.5. All the standard salt mixes i've tried (Tropic Marine, IO, RC) all run at 12-13 dhk at 1.026 (35).

Does anyone practice this or actually do this on a regular basics when doing water changes?

[disc1]

Is there any negative reactions when added Muriatic Acid to the salt mix? I too have been wanting to lower my alk in my salt mixing since I run mt sps tank at 8.5-9.5. All the standard salt mixes i've tried (Tropic Marine, IO, RC) all run at 12-13 dhk at 1.026 (35).

Does anyone practice this or actually do this on a regular basics when doing water changes?

Do you not have any coral? Does your tank not consume alkalinity? With anything but really large water changes that small difference in alkalinity doesn't really warrant any action. For instance a 10% change is going to raise the alk in the tank by less than half a dkH. If you've got corals then just slow down the alk dosing on water change day and save yourself the trouble.

Aside from that there's no adverse reaction to using HCl to reduce alkalinity.

[brad65ford]

Do you not have any coral? Does your tank not consume alkalinity? With anything but really large water changes that small difference in alkalinity doesn't really warrant any action. For instance a 10% change is going to raise the alk in the tank by less than half a dkH. If you've got corals then just slow down the alk dosing on water change day and save yourself the trouble.

Aside from that there's no adverse reaction to using HCl to reduce alkalinity.

I think that's what i have in my tank unless someone swapped them out for plastic fake corals:lolspin: I believe the system does consume alk could be the reason i dose two part thats not my issue.
Though i agree with you on the small increase change from the water change i'd rather have very similar alk numbers going in when doing a water change. 12-13 dhk going in to a 8.5 dhk imo isn't what I'd like to do.

[disc1]

I think that's what i have in my tank unless someone swapped them out for plastic fake corals:lolspin: I believe the system does consume alk could be the reason i dose two part thats not my issue.
Though i agree with you on the small increase change from the water change i'd rather have very similar alk numbers going in when doing a water change. 12-13 dhk going in to a 8.5 dhk imo isn't what I'd like to do.

So what you're saying is that you'd rather drop the alk in the salt mix and turn right around and add it right back with two part? That seems a waste. Why not just cut back the two part a little on water change day.

[KrazyOnetime]

Well it's a problem for me and my 75g WC's

[disc1]

Well it's a problem for me and my 75g WC's

75g water change? On how big of a tank?

[brad65ford]

So what you're saying is that you'd rather drop the alk in the salt mix and turn right around and add it right back with two part? That seems a waste. Why not just cut back the two part a little on water change day.

Why not keep them the same and not change anything with the two part? I don't want to adjust the two part, not the practice i'd rather take.

Humm not sure if i need to explain this again..:headwallblue: I'm trying to match the alk in the new fresh salt mix for the water change to the tanks alk levels. Crazy i know.:debi:

If Muriatic acid is safe to use I'd rather figure out the amount to add to my regular water change mix and call it done. No? Please excuse me if i'm total wrong, just don't understand why anyone would want to do something different unless they are using water changes as a source of added more alk and cal to increase something that is low. That i'm not.

[disc1]

Why not keep them the same and not change anything with the two part? I don't want to adjust the two part, not the practice i'd rather take.

Humm not sure if i need to explain this again..:headwallblue: I'm trying to match the alk in the new fresh salt mix for the water change to the tanks alk levels. Crazy i know.:debi:

If Muriatic acid is safe to use I'd rather figure out the amount to add to my regular water change mix and call it done. No? Please excuse me if i'm total wrong, just don't understand why anyone would want to do something different unless they are using water changes as a source of added more alk and cal to increase something that is low. That i'm not.

It is your time and your money. Waste it as you will.

[brad65ford]

In life nothing last forever, having a glass box in our homes we throw money into makes you no different then I. It's all a waste unless you find enjoyment .
But I must admit you've been the best of help.
;)

[disc1]

To me it sounds like turning the air conditioning on so you won't have to turn the space heater off.

[brad65ford]

I get what your saying and have never done the calculations to see how long to stop dosing in a given day per the amount of increase in alk to the volume of water.

It could be done with the controller stopping the alk but I would then have to stay true to the day and time each week when to do the WC. Not sure if i want to do that but in all fairness what your saying does make sense.

Wouldn't it just be easier having a salt mix to match your tanks parameters? Man I can't be the only one thinking this. I'm assuming most everyone just lives will the added alk from a new WC change.

[tmz]

Personally, I don't know anyone who routinely uses hyrdrochloric acid to reduce alk in newly mixed saltwater. The reports I'm familiar with involved emergency actions resulting from overdosing. It will work if that's what you choose to do and test carefully and accurately. The acid and the fumes are a health risk ,so be careful with it.
I rely on balancing out the amount of supplements to account for the amounts in replacement water. I prefer smaller frequent water changes for this and a number of other reasons.

[brad65ford]

Personally, I don't know anyone who routinely uses hyrdrochloric acid to reduce alk in newly mixed saltwater. The reports I'm familiar with involved emergency actions resulting from overdosing. It will work if that's what you choose to do and test carefully and accurately. The acid and the fumes are a health risk ,so be careful with it.
I rely on balancing out the amount of supplements to account for the amounts in replacement water. I prefer smaller frequent water changes for this and a number of other reasons.

I do agree also, i'm starting to back down on the size of water changes but increase the amount of times i do them.

More over why are all the standard salt mixes so high in alk anyway?

[Steveb]

Personally, I don't know anyone who routinely uses hyrdrochloric acid to reduce alk in newly mixed saltwater. The reports I'm familiar with involved emergency actions resulting from overdosing. It will work if that's what you choose to do and test carefully and accurately. The acid and the fumes are a health risk ,so be careful with it.
I rely on balancing out the amount of supplements to account for the amounts in replacement water. I prefer smaller frequent water changes for this and a number of other reasons.

I had been considering doing this in my saltwater mixing system. Was mostly thinking along the lines of needing to reduce Alk of IO when using Zeo or other carbon dosing in order to avoid burn't tips...

Nowhere near there just my line of thought.. Valid reason? Other alternatives if one wants to use IO?

[brad65ford]

I get tip burn's on my torts when water changes too.

[Steveb]

To me it sounds like turning the air conditioning on so you won't have to turn the space heater off.

LOL I read this and my wife came to mind... not to get off topic but she will turn the A/C down and then put a space heater in the bathroom to shower and get it freakishly hot & humid... drives me nuts..

[Spyderturbo007]

Why not just switch to Red Sea Salt (http://www.redseafish.com/index.aspx?id=4330)? Their Alkalinity mixes up at 7.3-7.7dKh at 33.5ppt.

I'm switching when I'm out of IO because my corals like low Alkalinity and I get a spike of about 0.6dKh when I do a water change.

[Steveb]

Thought about that but cost and availability both locally and online.

e.g. 64.95x175g vs. 44.95x200g

[HPballer76]

I have also been trying to figure out what to do about this. I use reef crystals but prefer my alk stay in the 8-9 range since I am running biopellets.

[brad65ford]

Why not just switch to Red Sea Salt (http://www.redseafish.com/index.aspx?id=4330)? Their Alkalinity mixes up at 7.3-7.7dKh at 33.5ppt.

I'm switching when I'm out of IO because my corals like low Alkalinity and I get a spike of about 0.6dKh when I do a water change.

I still have some , don't remember what it tested though. I've been running my salinity at 35ppt. I did experiment with lower salinity salt mixing to see how the alk is effect and there wasn't much.

Decided to go ahead and mix a 5g mix of TM tonight, tomorrow test alk and then add some Muriatic acid and see the effects.

[bertoni]

Muriatic acid can be used on freshly-mixed saltwater. I'd aerate it afterwards until the pH became acceptable before using it.

[brad65ford]

Ok well tested a fresh batch of Tropic Marine 5g mix salinity is 1.025 , ph = 8.2 and alk is 14+ (don't know the true value since its higher than RS test kit. This is the only salt i've ever tested with this high of alk.

Anyway I added 5 drops of some fresh MC from our pool place which didn't effect the alk reading at all so I added another 15 drops. I will test later in the day.

[brad65ford]

Wow I'm up to 50 drops and finally now I can read in the test range, so far its at 12.5 dhk. This TM was extremely high alk my guess 15-16 dhk. Cal and mg test with in range (thank god). I will let mix with air stone the rest of the day and test again.

[dkeller_nc]

Folks, one thing to realize is that "Muriatic Acid" as it's sold in the home stores is very impure hydrochloric acid sold for the purpose of concrete etching. Precisely what those impurities are depends on the manufacturer and the batch, but that's the reason it's often yellow. More than likely, the contaminants are of the metallic variety (iron, manganese, copper, lead, cadmium, etc...).

Pure, reagent grade hydrochloric acid sold for laboratory purposes is colorless.

My guess is that using a small amount of muriatic acid in an emergency to correct a pH overshoot is probably OK, but doing this on a regular basis could potentially cause some issues.

If you're OK with dosing carbon, you may want to use vinegar instead. Vinegar is a 4% solution of acetic acid, so you're going to have to use a lot more of it than 35% HCl, but it's food grade, and the metallic contaminants are going to be very low.

You can also purchase laboratory grade mineral acids - sulfuric and hydrochloric are probably the most appropriate ones to use for saltwater. But they're not cheap, and often the hazardous materials shipping is going to exceed the cost of the reagent itself.

[brad65ford]

Folks, one thing to realize is that "Muriatic Acid" as it's sold in the home stores is very impure hydrochloric acid sold for the purpose of concrete etching. Precisely what those impurities are depends on the manufacturer and the batch, but that's the reason it's often yellow. More than likely, the contaminants are of the metallic variety (iron, manganese, copper, lead, cadmium, etc...).

Pure, reagent grade hydrochloric acid sold for laboratory purposes is colorless.

My guess is that using a small amount of muriatic acid in an emergency to correct a pH overshoot is probably OK, but doing this on a regular basis could potentially cause some issues.

If you're OK with dosing carbon, you may want to use vinegar instead. Vinegar is a 4% solution of acetic acid, so you're going to have to use a lot more of it than 35% HCl, but it's food grade, and the metallic contaminants are going to be very low.

You can also purchase laboratory grade mineral acids - sulfuric and hydrochloric are probably the most appropriate ones to use for saltwater. But they're not cheap, and often the hazardous materials shipping is going to exceed the cost of the reagent itself.

I heard this also, I went with the pool grade stuff very strong and clear (i will post the details later)

[brad65ford]

I heard this also, I went with the pool grade stuff very strong and clear (i will post the details later)

Looks safe lol

Chemical properties and reactions

Hydrogen chloride (HCl) is a monoprotic acid, which means it can dissociate (i.e., ionize) only once to give up one H+ ion (a single proton). In aqueous hydrochloric acid, the H+ joins a water molecule to form a hydronium ion, H3O+:[19][20]

HCl + H2O → H3O+ + Cl−

The other ion formed is Cl−, the chloride ion. Hydrochloric acid can therefore be used to prepare salts called chlorides, such as sodium chloride. Hydrochloric acid is a strong acid, since it is essentially completely dissociated in water.[19][20]

Monoprotic acids have one acid dissociation constant, Ka, which indicates the level of dissociation in water. For a strong acid like HCl, the Ka is large. Theoretical attempts to assign a Ka to HCl have been made.[21] When chloride salts such as NaCl are added to aqueous HCl they have practically no effect on pH, indicating that Cl− is an exceedingly weak conjugate base and that HCl is fully dissociated in aqueous solution. For intermediate to strong solutions of hydrochloric acid, the assumption that H+ molarity (a unit of concentration) equals HCl molarity is excellent, agreeing to four significant digits.[19][20]

Of the six common strong mineral acids in chemistry, hydrochloric acid is the monoprotic acid least likely to undergo an interfering oxidation-reduction reaction. It is one of the least hazardous strong acids to handle; despite its acidity, it consists of the non-reactive and non-toxic chloride ion. Intermediate-strength hydrochloric acid solutions are quite stable upon storage, maintaining their concentrations over time. These attributes, plus the fact that it is available as a pure reagent, make hydrochloric acid an excellent acidifying reagent.

Hydrochloric acid is the preferred acid in titration for determining the amount of bases. Strong acid titrants give more precise results due to a more distinct endpoint. Azeotropic or "constant-boiling" hydrochloric acid (roughly 20.2%) can be used as a primary standard in quantitative analysis, although its exact concentration depends on the atmospheric pressure when it is prepared.[22]

Hydrochloric acid is frequently used in chemical analysis to prepare ("digest") samples for analysis. Concentrated hydrochloric acid dissolves many metals and forms oxidized metal chlorides and hydrogen gas, and it reacts with basic compounds such as calcium carbonate or copper(II) oxide, forming the dissolved chlorides that can be analyzed.[19][20]

[disc1]

That is all well and good, but I think the other poster was talking about the specific grade of HCl that you have. Not all preparations are equal. You can't just say HCl is HCl is HCl.

Either way, no more than you are talking about using, the pool grade stuff is most likely going to be OK. You might look for a certificate of analysis (might be on the bottle and might not be) to see if there is anything in there besides HCl.

[dkeller_nc]

That is all well and good, but I think the other poster was talking about the specific grade of HCl that you have. Not all preparations are equal. You can't just say HCl is HCl is HCl.

Yep, that was the point.

By the way - despite the quote "It is one of the least hazardous strong acids to handle; despite its acidity, it consists of the non-reactive and non-toxic chloride ion.", realize that concentrated hydrochloric acid is dangerous, as are all of the strong mineral acids. It's particularly hazardous to inhale the fumes; if you've ever diluted concentrated hydrochloric in water, you know that copious amounts of hydrogen chloride vapor/gas are produced.

Best method for handling this stuff in an industrial/laboratory setting is in a fume hood. Since most hobbyists won't have access to those, the next best practice is to use a respirator and dilute/handle it outdoors. Important! - The common respirators sold at home stores for paint fumes, etc... is TOTALLY ineffective at protecting you from acid fumes - you need a soda-lime cartridge designed for acid fumes to protect your lungs and sinus passages.

[bertoni]

I personally refuse to use muriatic acid due to the safety issues, but if I had to use it, I'd be very cautious with it. Dosing outdoors or in some open area might be safest.

[tmz]

I use muriatic acid it to clean things like coraline encrusted tanks and equipment, via a diluted soak ,outdoors only but don't plan to put it in my aquarium I think anyone who does should carefully review impruities in the particular product used.

As for vinegar , it wont decrease the alkalinity as it adds acetate,an anion, which offsets the initial decrease from the conversion of acetic acid to acetate. Net effect on alk is zero, I believe. Using vinegar also carries significant risk for oxygen depleting bacterial blooms and excess organics.

[tmz]

From my notes from an earlier post I beleive by Randy Farley re; muriatic acid and alk ,fyi: 1/11,000th of the total water volume reduces alk by 1 meq/l(2.8 dkh).

[brad65ford]

From my notes from an earlier post I beleive by Randy Farley re; muriatic acid and alk ,fyi: 1/11,000th of the total water volume reduces alk by 1 meq/l(2.8 dkh).


Here's my calculation I came up with now that the mix is in the testing range.
With a 5g mix it takes 1 drop of MA its .05 of a dhk lower. It took 105 drops to reach 9.5 dhk which matches my tanks alk. I'm not sure what 105 drops equates to ml's yet.

I will also admit i'm nervous to use the new salt mix. LOL

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c335/brad65ford/ma.jpg (http://s30.photobucket.com/user/brad65ford/media/ma.jpg.html)

[brad65ford]

The bad news is the ph is extremely low. I will see how much it will come up with aerating it.

[disc1]

The bad news is the ph is extremely low. I will see how much it will come up with aerating it.

That's what happens when you add an acid. And that is another one of the reasons I was saying it would be easier to just not add as much alkalinity that day.

As you aerate it out, the pH should come back up. But it may take a while.

[brad65ford]

I'm with you, let see what we can get the ph up to. Its 7.2 now this is after a large calculated dose once I know the forum and where I wanted to be.

[brad65ford]

Wow got to love aerating. The mix is at 8.0 ph.

[Buzz1329]

Have you thought about switching to a salt mix that has a lower alkalinity level than Reef Crystals? Like Instant Ocean?

Mike

[brad65ford]

Have you thought about switching to a salt mix that has a lower alkalinity level than Reef Crystals? Like Instant Ocean?

Mike

Hey Mike,

Yes I have thought and tried it. I believe IO was very high alk, higher then RC.

Update on the first salt mix with the same alk reading as the tanks. As of this morning all looks good, will keep doing this same practices for all my water changes and report back.

[tekjunkie28]

IO had a high all at like 12... Use red sea coral pro. Also IO only mixes at like 1.022 so figure that up BC that's that the 200g is used for. Effectively I bet ur spending the same or more for IO to get ur SG up to 1.026/35ppt.

I use IO and am switching to something else.

[wayne in norway]

If i had the same alk from reefC and Tm pro reef I'd check the test kit.

[brad65ford]

If i had the same alk from reefC and Tm pro reef I'd check the test kit.

One would think.

[karsseboom]

Use the red sea salt or reefers best, both have a lower dkh at around 7.

[wayne in norway]

I've seen various people running good tanks tell me Reefers Best has an alk out the box of 6.5 to 11.5 and everything in between. Either it's very inconsistent or it's testimony to how rubbish a lot of tests are

[GroktheCube]

Have you tried ESV B-Ionic salt mix? You can tailor pretty much any parameter to your liking by altering the proportions of the various ingredients. It mixes much faster than any other salt mix I've tried, and much more consistently. All parameters are always exactly the same.

[KrazyOnetime]

There is a new 90% less fume"y" muratic acid available at major hardware stores. I run my Alk at 8.5 aprox. my salt mixes up at 10.5 after 24hrs of areation and mixing. In order to a preform large WC's I need to lower my alk to around 8 as to not shock the system.

[brad65ford]

anybody using this method to lower their alk?

[Spyderturbo007]

Why not just switch salt mixes to something like Red Sea? It mixes up around 7.4 - 7.7dKh.

[brad65ford]

never used it before but i did use Red sea pro which had a high alk too.
Will have to give that a try.

[brad65ford]

Why not just switch salt mixes to something like Red Sea? It mixes up around 7.4 - 7.7dKh.

Thanks for suggesting to try this salt. You were correct, it mixes as advertised! Funny it even says on the side of the bucket "low nutrient sps" LOL Thank you again.

Brad

[Spyderturbo007]

You're very welcome.

If you read back through your thread, I initially suggested it in April of 2013. :D

[brad65ford]

You're welcome. If you read back through your thread, I initially suggested it back in April if 2013. :D


Very cool, unfortunately we broke down the tank and didn't start up a new one until a few months ago. Going to stick with this salt for the time being and see how it goes. :spin3:

[hedgedrew]

Change salts to lower alk brand. There are some good ones from 8 to 9.5.