Help with Water Levels - What do I do??

[ladylinden]

Okay, so I realize that this is probably the WRONG hobby for someone who is terrified of chemistry... so please bear with me, and be gentle... okay?

A little history:
Tank was an established tank bought on Craigslist... included were sand, some rock, and a little 4-striped damsel. (he's cute!) Got it home and set up to discover that the salinity levels were off the charts... so did a 25% water change. Then, bought some premium live rock from my LFS and added it to the tank yesterday. Tested the water this afternoon, and this is where I am:

Salinity: 1.026
No3: 50ppm
No2: >.05ppm
Ammonia: >.025ppm
Ph: 8.4-8.6
Alk: 2.9

So, high nitrates, high Ph and High Alk, right?? What do I do??
Do I need to do another large water change? I'm just shocked that after 25%, it's still so wonky!

Help... but I repeat - please - be gentle. Newbies are sensitive. :)
Lady

[kctango]

How many gallon tank do you have, how much live rock did you add??? How long did your LFS have the live rock??? Live rock could be going through a die off, ammonia levels climbing?? What were your levels before the water change????

I would prepare to do another water change in the next day.

[klondike4001]

^^ Same Questions,
How big is the tank?
How long did LFS have LR?
Is there a sump?
Protein Skimmer?
What are your plans for this tank? Reef? FOWLR?
What kind of lighting?
Are you using RODI water?


Your values look as if you are in the middle of a cycle, either from the new rock or from moving and disturbing the sand and rock. Hold off on another water change until we can get a few things straightened out.

[ladylinden]

Okay, let's see if I answer all these questions right:

Tank Setup:
26 Gallon Tank
HOB Penguin 200 Bio-Wheel Filter w/New Cartridge
(1) 15watt T8 Ocean Sun Lamp
No Protein Skimmer
No Sump

Water Levels
I don't know if the water levels are climbing or not, this was really my first test... only had the tank since Sat. However, the guy I got it from wasn't taking great care of it, (he had another 210 gal priority) and when we got it home, after all the moving and shaking in the car, we discovered two dead damsels that must have been under rocks/sand. So I know the water wasn't terrific to begin with, I just don't know what the levels were before. And I assumed, since I did a 25% water change right away that it would be a safe bet that I was doing what needed to be done. Maybe a poor assumption?

Live Rock
Added (6)lbs of Live Rock to the tank yesterday.
According to the LFS, the live rock is cured and quarantined before being sold - supposedly "tank ready". She said they cure it and quarantine it for several weeks before it goes on the floor.

My Plans for the Tank:
Right now, I just plan to have a FOWLR tank, and maybe down the road, when I get this under control, I would like to venture into more reefkeeping... slowly... surely... and with lots and lots of research/help.

Truly appreciate your help, guys!!
--

EDIT: I forgot - no, I'm not using RO/DI water... Using filtered (no chlorine) tap. I don't have access to anything much better, unless I go back to the LFS - they sell tank-ready saltwater, but I'm a little sketchy on doing that? Any thoughts?

[klondike4001]

Sandbeds especially in tanks not well maintained become nitrate sinks. When you moved the tank you stirred the sand bed and kicked it all out into the water column. Personal recommendation when moving a tank that is well established, wash the sand, you'll end up with a small cycle, but not enough to disrupt everyday tank life, it's better than releasing the tank crashing toxins. You may want to consider tearing down the tank, washing the sand, and making enough fresh SW to replace all the water in there. It'll be a lot less headache this way. Let us know how you plan to proceed.

[ladylinden]

Thanks Jonathan... ugh... a whole tank change? Well... at least it's only 26 gallons and not 200. :) Always a bright side.

In your opinion, is the filtered water I'm using acceptable? Or am I going to regret using it for such a huge water replacement?

Will replacing all the water in the tank start me back at Ground Zero? Will the tank need to re-cycle? Will the new fresh saltwater kill a bunch of stuff on my LR? My Damsel?
Sorry if these are dumb questions... just trying to wrap my head around what to expect.
Also - How would you "clean the sand"?? Rinse with fresh water? What if there are worms/etc in there? Do I just discard?? I don't expect there to be any, but there were some bristle worms on my LR yesterday that I can't find today...

TY again!
Lady

[Angel*Fish]

I'd get the damsel out of there until you have zero nitrites, zero ammonia and preferably lower nitrates. You can make fresh water for him and put the fish even in a bucket with a heater.

[Angel*Fish]

And an air pump!

[Chris27]

At this point, I wouldn't do anything but sit back and wait. The fish will be fine, just feed it sparingly and monitor ammonia 2x a day, if it gets any higher then 0.5 ppm add some Kordon Amquel, Seachem Prime or similar product. The tank should stabilize in a few days. Nitrate will not hurt a fish, and the little bit of ammonia you have should go away shortly.

Check back with us in a few days...you should be good to go. While you're waiting, go get some water jugs from the local hardware or camping store and get some of the SW from the store for your next water change. Not using tap water will most likely address the nitrate level.

Good Luck and welcome to a hobby more addicting then crack!

[Angel*Fish]

At this point, I wouldn't do anything but sit back and wait. The fish will be fine, just feed it sparingly and monitor ammonia 2x a day, if it gets any higher then 0.5 ppm add some Kordon Amquel, Seachem Prime or similar product. The tank should stabilize in a few days. Nitrate will not hurt a fish, and the little bit of ammonia you have should go away shortly.

Check back with us in a few days...you should be good to go. While you're waiting, go get some water jugs from the local hardware or camping store and get some of the SW from the store for your next water change. Not using tap water will most likely address the nitrate level.

Good Luck and welcome to a hobby more addicting then crack!Easy for you to say :D I suppose not everyone has extra heaters and other equipment sitting around, but I would not make a fish sit in ammonia. But you're right, as long as it's headed down it will be ok.

[Bloodritual]

Not saying the LFS is lying but keeping the liverock for weeks to let it cure isnot really cost effective for them.

[klondike4001]

Thanks Jonathan... ugh... a whole tank change? Well... at least it's only 26 gallons and not 200. :) Always a bright side.

In your opinion, is the filtered water I'm using acceptable? Or am I going to regret using it for such a huge water replacement?

Will replacing all the water in the tank start me back at Ground Zero? Will the tank need to re-cycle? Will the new fresh saltwater kill a bunch of stuff on my LR? My Damsel?
Sorry if these are dumb questions... just trying to wrap my head around what to expect.
Also - How would you "clean the sand"?? Rinse with fresh water? What if there are worms/etc in there? Do I just discard?? I don't expect there to be any, but there were some bristle worms on my LR yesterday that I can't find today...

TY again!
Lady

It will not re-cycle, yes about the sand, wash w/ fresh water, keep rinsing in a bucket until water's coming out clear. Fresh salt water won't kill anything, what type of "filtered" water are you using? Even is you kill the few worms that are left in the sand, some more will come out of the rocks and quickly re-populate. This is the more drastic approach but it lest you start out with a clean slate and normal parameters, otherwise the "easier" route is multiple tests per day, several smaller water changes, adding an ammonia remover... and so on. Just using my method you'll be amazed how much clearer the water will look, the water in the tank right now is probably very yellow and you don't even notice. The damsel can be put back into the tank once it reached the appropriate temp again after the big cleaning. Keep the rock wet (in the old water until you put back into the tank), make sure to shake them really well in the old water before putting back in the tank.

[almostazoo]

PHX water is some of the worst water on the planet... at the very least go to the water store(like water and ice etc.) for 20cents a gallon. use the list of vendors on FRAG(this web site) for good lfs in our area I like all of the ones with the thumbs up on the list.

[Chris27]

Not saying the LFS is lying but keeping the liverock for weeks to let it cure isnot really cost effective for them.

LFS don't typically cure their own rock, they simply order live rock from their suppliers and immediately put it in holding tanks when delivered. For all intensive purposes, it's cured and ready to go when you're there to buy it.

[ladylinden]

So now here are my water levels, as of today:

PH = 8.6 (up from 8.4)
Alk = 2.9 (no change)
NO2 = .05 (up slightly from >.05)
NO3 = 50ppm++ (still way high)
Ammonia = .25 (up slightly from >.25)

I'm confused about what levels are good - I know I want Ammonia, NO3 and NO2 to be ZERO... (feel like there's a long way to go with the NO3 to get there...) but are the Alk and PH okay??

Also, there is a fine, brown algae showing up on the sand and rocks. Do I need to be worried about this??

[klondike4001]

The fine brown algae is from the new live rock you added, since there was already nitrates and ammonia present it's cycling rapidly. Those other values minus pH are more than likely leeching from the old rock and sand since it got tumbled in the move. With regards to the pH:
What time of day was it when you checked compared to last time?
Were the tank lights on or off?
How long had they been on or off?

We'll get you straightened out.

[ladylinden]

When I checked the first time, it was around 3pm, lights on... had been on since 7am. (8 hours.)
When I checked the second time, it was around 8pm, lights on... had been on since 7am. (13 hours.)

I have my lights set to be on from 7am to 8pm. Is that too long? I know it's selfish, but I like to see what's in the tank when I get up in the AM and then before I go to bed...

@almostazoo is right... the water in PHX is awful,... I haven't attempted a big water change / total water change yet because I'm still trying to figure out the water thing. I guess I probably need to bite the bullet and go to the LFS for jugs of water? Would that be best? Or should I just buy a bunch of gallons of distilled water from Walmart and mix my own? What would you do, Jonathan?

Truly, Truly appreciate your help.
:) Thank you!!

[klondike4001]

If someone can vouch for the water quality at your lfs then I'd say it's a pretty safe bet, otherwise buy distilled and mix yourself. With regards to your pH, is there any way you can test in the morning before the lights come on so I can try to guage why you're so high. Remember, when you get your sw, whether you buy or mix your own, let it sit for 24 hours before using. Fresh made sw usually has some wacky numbers.

It's not selfish to want to see your tank, although, while you don't have anything in there that requires light, a dark period during the day wouldn't hurt anything and probably help in the future with nuisance algae.

Keep us posted.

[ladylinden]

I'll take the PH first thing in the AM and let you know what it is... The LFS I go to is AquaTouch, which is one of the sponsors of this site and has pretty good reviews, so I think I trust it... but maybe I'll just do distilled and mix... that might be the easiest in the short term.

Are you still advocating an entire 26 gal water change? Or do you think I should maybe do 50% and let everything cycle out?

Thank you!
PS - some cool stuff is showing up on my rock! A couple of b/w brittle stars, and some cool mushroom looking things.

[klondike4001]

Still advocating you get that samd bed cleaned out, sounds like it's collected a lot of junk that it's now releasing abck into the tank. Doing the 100% will remove most if not all ammonia and nitrates which is most of your current headache.

[stingythingy45]

Eventually the biological filter will catch up enough to make the ammonia dissipate.
But,this could take some time.I had a QT tank cycle with fish in it,so it's not impossible to get through it.Lots of water changes(don't have to be 100%)and monitor the parameters,especially the ammonia.

[stingythingy45]

Jonathan is correct about the sand bed.
It would almost be better for you to be bare bottom than have a really grungy sand bed.
Problem is you could really have some nasties pollute the tank if you mess with it too much.

[trina2498]

how deep of a sand bed? IMO the deeper the bed the more its needed From personal experience I would do a full water change rinsing out the sand bed.

[con999]

to be honist i would take down everything and restart the tank. i no that you probaly dont want to but for the safty of the fish and to save you problams down the road, thats what i would do. but at a minum, get the fish out of the then wash then sand and do a 100% waterchage.
for a saltwater tank you should be looking into buying your own RODI system, its late and im tried so i cant tell you why right now, and hopfull someone else will but that is almost a must for theis hobby. next you need to buy a proten skimmer and get rid of the HOB, their just nitrate facotrys. i have the same tank as you, a 26 bowfront. with my stand i couldent keep a fuge, so i added one to the side of the tank, it works the same. right now you need to do them min for the tank and do a TON of rearch, like days of it.

[ladylinden]

Thanks everyone. Got distilled water from Walmart today and am mixing tonight, then will do a 100% water change and clean the sand bed tomorrow. I've read conflicting things - do I wait 24 hours after mixing the water? Or will 12 hours suffice? Lastly, I'm assuming that mixing in clean, 5 gal buckets and covering with lids overnight is fine? I don't have an extra tank laying around. Thanks again - truly appreciate all the insight!
Lady

[klondike4001]

You want a stable salinity for about 12 hours before you use it (allows for pH and dissolved oxygen to stabilize). Buckets are fine for mixing.


Keep us posted.

[ladylinden]

Distilled water mixed and stabilized, check...
Tank emptied and sand bed cleaned, check...
New, clean water in tank, check...
Water heating back to 78................... waiting.............. waiting...........

Live Rock and Damsel are waiting it out in buckets, with water being kept warm by sitting in the sink surrounded by warm water. This is like watching paint dry!!!
72 degrees... getting warmer.

(Insert theme song from Jeopardy here...)

[Angel*Fish]

So your ammonia is still going up? That's a really creative way to heat the water!

[klondike4001]

Water heating back to 78................... waiting.............. waiting...........

72 degrees... getting warmer.

In Houston this usually isn't an issue....

[klondike4001]

Did you ever get the lights out early am pH readings?

[ladylinden]

Yah, Ammonia was off the charts, and the water was turning a nasty brown/yellow... Today - it's BEAUTIFUL!!! Clear, crystal... and my damsel seems to be a very happy guy... I was planning on letting it run for a day and then testing water levels tomorrow to see where it's at. Another person on here told me that Walmart water might still have lots of nitrate (I think that's what she said) in it... so we'll see.

I did get the early AM PH reading, and it was still 8.6+... dark, dark purple. Sorry... meant to post that before.

On a side note, found a really cool, itsy bitsy brittle star in my live rock while staring at it in buckets yesterday... it was white/clear. I have several others, that are much bigger that I've seen before, that are black and white striped. Very cool stuff. :)