zoas not opening

[mazon56]

hey guys im new to the forum. its been helping me already. im having some trouble with 2 of my zoa colonies. i put them 9 days ago and they wont open ive tryed different spots in the tank and nothing. they both opened fully for the 1st 2 days and havent opened since. anyone know why they wont open.

90 gallon
ni,amm all 0
nitrate-20-30
pH-8.2
calcium-420
alk-11

[RonMidtownStomp]

Temperature? Flow? Lighting? I'd start by not moving them around so much.

Ron

[mazon56]

Temp is at 77 constanstly my light are 6 54watt t5 I have to powerheads one is 800 gph and the other is 1400 gph

[RonMidtownStomp]

Are they wild colonies or zoas that have a reputation for being robust in aquariums? I would estimate wild colonies from a LFS to have about a 50% success rate. One way or another, the best bet is to leave them alone and stop moving them around.

[mazon56]

one is a frag of a much larger colony at the store and the other one was purchased off of a guy selling which was very healthy.

[MUCHO REEF]

Please read the link below, I hope it helps.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1154238&highlight=mucho

Mucho Reef

[mazon56]

thanks alot man that was really helpful. im gonna try a reef dip n see if that helps. how can you know if you have stray voltage and how do you fix that? thank again mucho

[MUCHO REEF]

I wouldn't go dipping just yet. Tell us about the colony. Like Ron said, was it wild caught or captive breed/aqua cultured?

Did you make any changes to your tank on the day the stopped expanding?

Did you inquire of the previous tank conditions, parameters, lighting type, watts, K value and scheme?

Do you have reef safe fish? Please list them.

Did you light acclimate them?

Did you qurantine or dip them before you placed them in your system?

What is your salinity?

How are you checking it?

Do you own a volt meter?

Does anything else show any signs of retraction in your tank?

Polyps will react to stress and you have severely stressed them with moving them.

Why did you settle on 77 degrees?

When was your last water change? If more than 2 weeks ago, prepare to do a 20% water change tomorrow if you can. Aerate the make up water for 24 hours. Lets do a TKO tomorrow. I'll tell you what that is then.

Are the polyps still intact? By that I mean, are there any physical signs of polyp decline such as flaking, pinching, polyp bending or any physical signs of degredation at all?

Mucho Reef

[RonMidtownStomp]

Did you light acclimate them?


I'm curious what you do. I take zoas frequently from lower light (150 PAR) conditions, frag them, then throw them into my extremely high light (8" deep, all corals at about 4" under 250W Radiums with Lumenarc's, so probably 400-500 PAR average) and I have about a 95% success rate.

I find acans to be extremely sensitive to changes in light, and for some chalices to have color changes. Named, hardy zoas I tend to find extremely stable.

[MUCHO REEF]

I have a question for you, and I'm not being smart mouth or mean or anything. Just an honest question. Do you think it is wise or recommended to grab a frag, stress it, remove it, stress it, frag it, stres it, glue it to a plug or frag rock, stress it, then triple the PAR within minutes by placing it 4 inches under 250 watts Radium with high end Lumenarc reflectors with a 95 % success rate? Even though you have only loss 5 % of them, I would personally never do that. I would at least place them back where they were then slowly move them to your tray.

What I mean by light acclimation is this, for the first day or 2, I'll only run my actinics with new arrivals, then gradually add daylights. There are a lot of people who simply open the bag and drop them in the tank. Every new arrival is different. If I had polyps sent by mail via 2 day shipping when I paid for overnight shipping with a 24 hour heat pack, I'm not going to treat them the same as I did with something I picked up at the LFS 5 minutes away from home. Why? They would first need to be temp acclimated slowly with tank water. If I purchased some polyps from a friend 5 minutes away who cultured these polyps under two 3 foot T5 bulbs in a 90 gallon tank, I'm not going to place them 4 inches under my dule 250 watt HQI MH's. Why? They would first need to be light acclimated, if not, they could possibly expel their zooxanthellae and bleach out. Every new arrival isn't the same as the last and many reefers are treating them all the same. I'm not saying you are, I'm just saying. These are the topics we seldom if ever discuss in this forum anymore. Though these polyps are hardy and highly adaptive, they are not bullet proof and this is one of the many reasons so many people are losing new arrivals all over the internet.


Maybe I'm overly cautious, maybe I'm an extremly A-retentive reefer. Maybe I just like to error on this side of caution. I meant no harm, was just explaining it from the heart is all my friend.


Mucho Reef

[mazon56]

WOW.LOL. thats alot thanks alot mucho. my temp is at 77 cuz thats the lowest i could get it n i dont want to buy a chiller. too much money. i have 6 54watt t5 ati bulbs. the tank they were in had 2 54watt t5 and the other under 2 250 watt halide and 1 400 watt halide. my salinity is at 1.023 my nitri-0, nitra-20-30, amm-0, pH-8.2, calcium-420, alk-10.
i have a naso tang, yellow tang, desjardini tang, harlequin tusk, foxface, bluethroat trigger, goby, maroon clown, and a snowflake eel. i have never seen any pick at anything at all. my pulsating xenias arent doing well either but i know there hit or miss. my star polyps are doing great fully open and growing so are my leathers same with my brain and anemone all doing great. yes the polyps are still intact they like peek open a little bit. i did a water change about 3 weeks ago and already had water mixing to do one tomorrow. no i dont have a voltage meter. i dont quarentine or dip before adding should i be dipping all my corals before adding, before or after acclimation. and no i dont light acclimate. only started the reef about a month ago the tanks been established for over a year now and doing good with about 120 lbs of live rock.
and whats the tko?

[RonMidtownStomp]

I frag too often for that to be practical. I'd never get to run my lights, and I won't clutter my display tank with frags. In other words, I'll take the loss over the clutter and the inability to make frags as frequently as I want.

Also, is it possible that corals that are thrashed around a little bit more are tougher? I'm not particularly obsessive about stability, even though it helps that I have an extremely large system. I can get away with a lot since I have ~500 gallons of salt water.

[mazon56]

im going to posts pics of the zoos and xenias to show u guys

[RonMidtownStomp]

@OP

a) Everything should be dipped and scrubbed before going in.
b) That's a whole lot of nitrates... way high, especially if you're using a cheap test kit with a high margin of error
c) Acclimate, then dip in tank water + whatever you want to dip in then rinse with tank water, then add to tank
d) 3 weeks without a water change is a long time for a reef tank
e) I believe the ocean is 1.024-1.026 sg, not 1.023
f) The harlequin, or the eel or the trigger could be nipping at the zoas keeping them from opening.

That said, the fact that they're opening a bit means that they could open the rest of the way and be fine. Completely closed for weeks would mean probably not.

[mazon56]

how long should i wait before dipping them or moving them to another spot in the tank?

[RonMidtownStomp]

In my experience, it's too late to dip them now. What you want to prevent is pests from coming into your system. Not to ask the obvious question, but are there any nudis on them?

I wouldn't move them to another spot in the tank. They'll get used to where they are now and if you move them, you're asking for them not to open for another 2-3 weeks since they're already unhappy. They might not be able to survive that long closed up.

[mazon56]

i dont know what nudis are im a newb sorry. ive heard of them but dont know what they look like or what to look for

[RonMidtownStomp]

Type "zoa eating nudibranch" into google, then click on images.

[mazon56]

wow they are tiny. i dont think i have any ill look thoroughly again

[mazon56]

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/mazon56/2011-02-23_22-24-35_208.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/mazon56/2011-02-23_22-24-35_208.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/mazon56/2011-02-23_22-24-46_51.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/mazon56/2011-02-23_22-24-15_889.jpg

[mazon56]

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/mazon56/2011-02-23_22-24-24_856.jpg

[mazon56]

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/mazon56/2011-02-23_22-25-54_230.jpg

[mazon56]

sorry for the candy canes even though idk if they are doing good.

[XSharkboyX]

I frag too often for that to be practical. In other words, I'll take the loss over the clutter and the inability to make frags as frequently as I want.

:confused:Wait a min... I guess I missed something... What happened to the days when we cared about our corals, and not about the potential frags?

I'm not particularly obsessive about stability, even though it helps that I have an extremely large system.

Stability is what a reef tank is all about... It mind as well be its middle name... If you don't have stability, you have nothing....

[RonMidtownStomp]

Let's be entirely clear. It's a rare day when I lose a zoa frag. If I make four 2-polyp frags of my Capt Americas (for instance) I'm pretty much guaranteed to have four 2-polyp frags of Capt Americas a week later. I'm just saying that you don't need to be overly obsessive to be successful at fragging corals. Furthermore, who's to say that putting them in more light is stressful for them? They seem to react extremely well, stay very healthy, and grow almost immediately. How do you know that they would prefer being in the dark for 3 days? Wouldn't that be more likely to cause them to not heal since they're essentially not eating?

Plus, Sharkboy, the mother colony's not at risk. It goes back in it's place. I can't remember losing a mother colony due to fragging. And if you're serious about not being into small frags or high end corals that fetch a high price, then we are participating in different hobbies.

I also believe that from a propagation standpoint that my frequently fragged corals grow faster and if trimmed intelligently SPS especially can be healthier. My PPE's hadn't grown noticably for months. I made three frags from them and now I'm getting new polyps. All of the frags were fine.

As far as stability I send off once a month for lab water tests and my water conditions are consistently excellent. I do 50 gallons/week minimum of water changes. I run a good CaRx, a very good skimmer with a very good skimmer pump, I have tremendous amounts of flow in all of the tanks in the system, I have a generator and battery backup in case of power outages. I have a good heater in the "winter" and a good chiller in the summer that doesn't come on very much. I allow for a significant amount of temperature swing. I don't sweat anything over 72 or anything under 83 degrees.

[RonMidtownStomp]

@OP I've had zoa colonies crash when moved to a new system. In my experience frags do better than colonies.

[MUCHO REEF]

thanks alot man that was really helpful. im gonna try a reef dip n see if that helps. how can you know if you have stray voltage and how do you fix that? thank again mucho


Take a peek at this thread

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1982254

Then alternate unplugging each tank component and test. The meter will tell you which is leaching stray voltage. Good Luck.


Mucho Reef

[mazon56]

So what should I do mucho with these zoas

[XSharkboyX]

If I make four 2-polyp frags of my Capt Americas (for instance) I'm pretty much guaranteed to have four 2-polyp frags of Capt Americas a week later.

I dont know what you are talking about here, im assuming a zoa or paly (I am not into all the designer names), but thats great that they heal and polyp loss is prevented...

I'm just saying that you don't need to be overly obsessive to be successful at fragging corals.

Your absolutely right, nearly anyone can be successful at fragging these days, all it takes is a razor blade and some super glue. However, if you want 100% of your fragmented corals to make it, certain precautions must be made to achieve this.

Furthermore, who's to say that putting them in more light is stressful for them?

Just about any coral book will tell you that too much light stresses corals... Its a no brainer.

Wouldn't that be more likely to cause them to not heal since they're essentially not eating?

Think of it in terms of you being sick... The only thing that helps you achieve great health again is rest. Polyps dont need light 24/7 to feed. They feed in the dark just as much as they do in the light. Again, most coral books would describe their feeding habits.

Plus, Sharkboy, the mother colony's not at risk. It goes back in it's place.

Most times in more recent years we see people fragging frags, not mother colonies. A mother colony doesnt consist of 10-25 polyps, it consists of hundreds-thousands of polyps. So if the mother "frag" is too small, then yes it is at risk when being sliced and diced.

And if you're serious about not being into small frags or high end corals that fetch a high price, then we are participating in different hobbies.

Your right on here. There seems to be a great divide in the hobby these days, some people are still into reefing... Others are into collecting designer named frags.

As far as stability I send off once a month for lab water tests and my water conditions are consistently excellent. I do 50 gallons/week minimum of water changes. I run a good CaRx, a very good skimmer with a very good skimmer pump, I have tremendous amounts of flow in all of the tanks in the system, I have a generator and battery backup in case of power outages. I have a good heater in the "winter" and a good chiller in the summer that doesn't come on very much. I allow for a significant amount of temperature swing. I don't sweat anything over 72 or anything under 83 degrees.

Not sure what you are trying to prove here, but reefing is about so much more than the best equipment, and tremendous amounts of flow... I am also not sure why you would want a significant temperature swing. Are you speaking of a daily swing? Its unnatural to most corals to experience a regular temp swing of 11 degrees... In fact I am astounded you would practice that. Thats a pretty basic concept about keeping reef tanks. Temperature stability is exceptionally important in maintaining the health of fish and corals alike.

[RonMidtownStomp]

I have large zoanthid colonies and large SPS colonies in the display tank. I have frags that are set aside for growing out into colonies in the display tank and I have frags for propagation in the frag tank. Since zoas and palys colonize well and are easy to trade in small frags, and are hardy that way, I find small zoa frags to be ideal.

Your assumption that people who collect named corals are not reefers is particularly arrogant and annoying. It's a hobby. Do what you enjoy. My point is that certain things are very important and a lot of people like to overemphasize things that are insignificant in my experience, and I make a lot of frags and do a fair amount of trading.

[XSharkboyX]

Your assumption that people who collect named corals are not reefers is particularly arrogant and annoying.

Well brother, from my experience, people who are into collecting the latest and greatest fad of named corals are in it to sell high dollar frags... Nothing more, nothing less... I do not consider that reefing, thats called collecting and price gouging. The people who defend it, are usually in on it. :eek2:


My point is that certain things are very important and a lot of people like to overemphasize things that are insignificant in my experience

If the things you stated in your post about high dollar equipment, massive amounts of flow, and an eleven degree temperature swing are of vast importance to you, then what would you consider insignificant? We allready know you don't consider the practices Mucho posted to be a significant practice, so please inform us what it is exactly that is so overemphasized in the hobby today?

I make a lot of frags and do a fair amount of trading.

You stated that you make alot of frags, but only do a fair amount of trading... So what happens to the rest? Are these the frags that you dont mind losing in the process of placing the frags in massive amounts of light?

[RonMidtownStomp]

I'm sorry your experience with those who collect corals is so misleading. Almost every RC TOTM is full of those named high dollar corals. All of those members who's tanks are displayed are clearly excellent reefers. Here are some shots of my mother colonies:

http://inlinethumb43.webshots.com/45226/2163581590038763404S600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb22.webshots.com/47253/2747182240038763404S600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb08.webshots.com/44807/2858446970038763404S600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb59.webshots.com/44026/2980029650038763404S600x600Q85.jpg

I don't appear to have any good zoa colony shots handy, but I have those, too.

[XSharkboyX]

Thanks for posting pictures, I guess... I am just wondering why you dodged my questions two times in a row now. The first time you called me arogant, which I kindly dismissed. The second, you just posted random pictures of some stony corals...

I apologize to the op, I did not mean for your thread to be derailed... I hope your questions have been answered my friend. How about an update on your polyps?

[popwin]

The yellow ones seems will get through.

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/mazon56/2011-02-23_22-24-35_208.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/mazon56/2011-02-23_22-24-35_208.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/mazon56/2011-02-23_22-24-46_51.jpg
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/mazon56/2011-02-23_22-24-15_889.jpg