Why do we attack eachother on prices?

[kichimark]

I have noticed many reefers attack or question other reefers decisions on purchasing "high end" zoanthids during my stay here on RC. Now I am not saying it is right to sell 100+ per polyp and I would not even do that myself but a business or person does have the right to do it. What I am seeing is an alienation of fellow reefers who have the expensive polyps and those that do not. This can be done by either questioning them or even saying THEY are the problem. This can lead to many reefers who have valuable knowledge or input to not even post or visit here anymore.

If somebody has the income to dispose on a few corals why not? do we ourselves not do this in reality when it comes to food? homes? cars? entertainment? Everything in price is going up. How would you feel if someone were to say you should not buy that because it is wrong and fuels the price gouging on whatever it may be?

It is many reefers who buy these expensive corals at first that end up trading or SELLING them cheaper later on. Where is the problem with that? Sure there are some who sell at the same price and might even sell higher. Again its up to them and honestly I wouldn't buy and neither would another experienced reefer.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a129/Kichimark/rantface.gifI am sad to say it but the days of every zoanthid being cheap are gone and many of you know this. This division of those now who can have/do not have is annoying. We are here to share knowledge on how to keep/raise/grow these beautiful creations.http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a129/Kichimark/rantface.gif

[Jacwil]

This topic has been dredged over so much lately...starting another thread o the matter will not help matters.

[650-IS350]

Why wont it help, knowledge and information being passed is a the first thing you want when you want to cure something. Bringing this to light is that start to fixing this problem, I think people who hate this thought, bash this issue or want to shut it down are the ones who have nothing but to gain from all these sky rocket prices/hyping/name game or have etc Unless your fine with the price gouging, naming ,hyping and the absurb prices of corals now a days . That's just me and IMHO.

[MUCHO REEF]

I haven't seen any attacks. I just see people stating their opinions pro or con on a topic.

[Jacwil]

Why wont it help, knowledge and information being passed is a the first thing you want when you want to cure something. Bringing this to light is that start to fixing this problem, I think people who hate this thought, bash this issue or want to shut it down are the ones who have nothing but to gain from all these sky rocket prices/hyping/name game or have etc Unless your fine with the price gouging, naming ,hyping and the absurb prices of corals now a days . That's just me and IMHO.


Let's see how this turns out.....I imagine what follows will answer your question.

[ryan820]

I'm still a noob here but here is my take on the matter and it applies to anything bought and sold...

The market will price and sell things as the market allows-- if there is a demand for it, no matter how big or small, the market will accommodate.

For me personally I would never buy a coral so expensive because it does not align with my budget and financial goals. My goals do, however, allow me to have a salt water tank and a budding (no pun intended) collection of zoas I really like but it will only allow for a certain price-- to be determined at the time by the situation and by myself and my wife.

Now with that said, I do not believe its right to judge someone on the price they paid for their corals. For every person who gawks at the price tag of someone else's coral in disbelief, I am sure there are 100 more people who would be shocked by how much money and time we already have in our tanks in general, individual specimens aside. I already have hundreds of dollars in this tank and it isn't even all that impressive-- but I began with nothing!

This may sound very laissez faire of me, but if the market controls the price of these corals, the natural inclination is that it'll hit that sweet spot where people will pay. The more people willing to pay, the closer the market is to that sweet spot. if you are unwilling to pay, you either aspire to in the future or you focus your energy and money on something else.

Even our saltwater tanks follow this... ups and downs, swings of the pendulum, until equilibrium of the given conditions is met.

Best of all-- all of this can be achieved through comradery and civility towards our fellow reef keepers.

[XSharkboyX]

Why wont it help, knowledge and information being passed is a the first thing you want when you want to cure something. Bringing this to light is that start to fixing this problem, I think people who hate this thought, bash this issue or want to shut it down are the ones who have nothing but to gain from all these sky rocket prices/hyping/name game or have etc Unless your fine with the price gouging, naming ,hyping and the absurb prices of corals now a days . That's just me and IMHO.

:beer::thumbsup: :idea:
Applause!!!!!!!!!!
I could not have put it better myself... Short and sweet, but to the point at hand! The only people who defend these high prices are the price gougers, or people who stand to gain by the sky high coral prices...

No ordinary reefer in their right mind would justify paying $100 pp or a "Designer Named/LE/High End" zoa or paly when they could get a colony OF THE SAME COLOR MORPH for $50.

From what I have seen the only thing people are doing, including myself, is trying to educate the online reef community about how bad our hobby has really become... There has been no attacking, just opinions being placed in the view of the public.

Back when these named corals and chop shop price gougers first started to show up on the scene, they would all get banned from online sites. People would actually post the price gouger's websites or their ebay names on forums such as this to warn people not to purchase from them.

Now we see forum sites and vendor websites set up specifically to price gouge and keep coral prices high to rape unsuspecting newbies and reefers who have been conditioned to pay these outrageous prices!!!!!... It has become the norm for everyday reefers so start naming their corals to elevate the price of their corals. What has happened? This is not reefing!

It is totally and completely unacceptable in my book. We as the hobbyists' have the control to stop this. You must stop paying these prices for corals with names and false claims of rarity, otherwise things will never change! If we all stop buying from the price gougers, you will be able to watch the prices drop back down to what they should be!

[kichimark]

I'm still a noob here but here is my take on the matter and it applies to anything bought and sold...

The market will price and sell things as the market allows-- if there is a demand for it, no matter how big or small, the market will accommodate.

For me personally I would never buy a coral so expensive because it does not align with my budget and financial goals. My goals do, however, allow me to have a salt water tank and a budding (no pun intended) collection of zoas I really like but it will only allow for a certain price-- to be determined at the time by the situation and by myself and my wife.

Now with that said, I do not believe its right to judge someone on the price they paid for their corals. For every person who gawks at the price tag of someone else's coral in disbelief, I am sure there are 100 more people who would be shocked by how much money and time we already have in our tanks in general, individual specimens aside. I already have hundreds of dollars in this tank and it isn't even all that impressive-- but I began with nothing!

This may sound very laissez faire of me, but if the market controls the price of these corals, the natural inclination is that it'll hit that sweet spot where people will pay. The more people willing to pay, the closer the market is to that sweet spot. if you are unwilling to pay, you either aspire to in the future or you focus your energy and money on something else.

Even our saltwater tanks follow this... ups and downs, swings of the pendulum, until equilibrium of the given conditions is met.

Best of all-- all of this can be achieved through comradery and civility towards our fellow reef keepers.

ryan820---:beer: I am so glad someone actually understood me here.


Other than that attacking may have been a word not best describing the matter but I have seen members who pay some high price get frowned upon many times over and lately it has been bugging me which led to this thread. It is how we see ourselves and where we go from here.

I see us all as brothers and sisters in this hobby and I will treat as such. I do not support high prices but I will not judge someone who pays it. I do think naming has a purpose of IDENTIFICATION. When used to hype it is not helping the hobby. But does knowing the names of my corals make me a hype person or gouger? I give away things and when I do sell some things it is cheaper than what I get them by a huge factor. Does this make people such as this bringing down the hobby?

Eh im over it. I am just glad someone understood what I was saying.

[Jarred1]

Naming corals is ok IMO but when you start throwing LE or Jason Fox in the name is where you get these out outrageous prices. The names can help everyone differentiate one kind of polyp from the next. What makes Jason Fox's corals so much better than any other coral that it makes it seem like we are going out and buying little chunks of gold? I could understand if someone spent a lot of money on a fish. What I can't understand is how someone can spend a lot of money on something that can reproduce in our tanks in a relatively short amount of time.

I don't know if this made any sense to you all, but if it didn't I will clarify later today when I have been awake for some time!

[sneeyatch]

I used to totally gripe about stuff on boards, but I found that if you actually talk to the store managers about their extreme pricing, they're usually pretty open. They may not change their price, then again they might. Once they see it sitting in their store for a long time not moving it causes issues with them since they can't move inventory and their relationships with suppliers can become strained.

The bottom line is, if you think it's too expensive don't buy it. Be your own person and don't be a lemming (follower). You'll be happier in the long run.

I think the hobby was way cooler when things were just un-named pieces and went by "red acro with a green base", "blue zoanthids with red skirts". I think it made the hobby more exciting. Tutti Fruitti bananna ramma acro with whip cream on top... give me a break. Even if I have a "LE" piece, I never call it that if people ask. They can be like "Is that red planet?" My answer is always "I don't know, all I know is that's it's healthy and looks good."

I'd like to know whoever came up with the fact that misbar clowns are worth so much more than a regular clownfish. I remember back in the day, a misbar would sit in a LFS till it died. Everyone wanted a "real" clownfish. I'm still the same way.

[NyReefNoob]

Naming corals is ok IMO but when you start throwing LE or Jason Fox in the name is where you get these out outrageous prices. The names can help everyone differentiate one kind of polyp from the next. What makes Jason Fox's corals so much better than any other coral that it makes it seem like we are going out and buying little chunks of gold? I could understand if someone spent a lot of money on a fish. What I can't understand is how someone can spend a lot of money on something that can reproduce in our tanks in a relatively short amount of time
+1
I don't knock the people who do go and spend the crazy money for individual piece's, that's their issue. I truelly am against a LE or who ever's name on a coral from the ocean and that makes it cost more. whats even funnier is a good part of what these guys have most of us reefers had way before them, then they take and put their name on it and it is gold ? i'm sorry and i have met jason fox, but my version of the same corals look much better then his did. Even though the internet has brought so much to helping reefers learn and understand it has also been the down fall of it. That and photo shop. if they need a l.e.d or heavy blue light to make a coral look good then thats a coral i dont need, and when the vendors or online stores are asked about it it's funny to see the excuse's or reasoning

[israel.kendall]

I'm still a noob here but here is my take on the matter and it applies to anything bought and sold...

The market will price and sell things as the market allows-- if there is a demand for it, no matter how big or small, the market will accommodate.

For me personally I would never buy a coral so expensive because it does not align with my budget and financial goals. My goals do, however, allow me to have a salt water tank and a budding (no pun intended) collection of zoas I really like but it will only allow for a certain price-- to be determined at the time by the situation and by myself and my wife.

Now with that said, I do not believe its right to judge someone on the price they paid for their corals. For every person who gawks at the price tag of someone else's coral in disbelief, I am sure there are 100 more people who would be shocked by how much money and time we already have in our tanks in general, individual specimens aside. I already have hundreds of dollars in this tank and it isn't even all that impressive-- but I began with nothing!

This may sound very laissez faire of me, but if the market controls the price of these corals, the natural inclination is that it'll hit that sweet spot where people will pay. The more people willing to pay, the closer the market is to that sweet spot. if you are unwilling to pay, you either aspire to in the future or you focus your energy and money on something else.

Even our saltwater tanks follow this... ups and downs, swings of the pendulum, until equilibrium of the given conditions is met.

Best of all-- all of this can be achieved through comradery and civility towards our fellow reef keepers.

Being new to the hobby myself, I also thought this. I looked at all the expensive "rare" LE named corals and just trusted that they really were rare and that the market dictated their price. I thought Jason Fox was like some marine biologist who dives in remote areas of the ocean to hand pick the best coral specimens on the planet. Someone new to the hobby sees this and naturally accepts this as the way things are, and the way they are supposed to be.

Step back for a minute though. Try to see through the eyes of a person who has been in the hobby for a while. They know that these "rare" corals can be (and are) bought for a fraction of the price and that unscrupulous retailers are trying to rip off unsuspecting reefers. They know that Jason Fox is just a regular working man (mechanic) like us with some colorful corals in his tanks.

Now, an "attack" on someone for buying into this hype would be uncalled for or course. I don't really see a lot of attacks, though. I see more of "old school" reefers trying to keep others from being ripped off. People should be thanking them for this.

As an analogy, consider we were coin collectors. Some guy goes to the bank, picks up a few rolls of Sacagawea dollars, then posts them on the internet as ultra super rare limited edition gold dollars for $500 each. New coin collectors unknowingly buy into the hype, buy the coins, spread the hype, and get ripped off. At some point someone needs to stand up and speak the truth, that the coins are neither rare, nor limited edition, and stop the insanity.

Same with the hyped corals, most are not that rare. And as for Limited Edition, well that's not even possible since corals come from the ocean and as far as I know no one is out there creating new breeds. Now if there were breeders out there coming up with some amazing new strains then that would be a different story all together.

[USC-fan]

Zoa frags[not one polyp lol] should be $10-$25. If you paid more than that you got rip off....

[cjdevito]

I have the single rarest type of zoas currently in the hobby, the fabled "Button polyps, assorted".

Years ago they were common and incredibly easy to find. Walk into any LFS and there you'd see tanks full of large (5"+) rocks completely covered in hundreds of "Button polyps, assorted" for maybe $30 a rock. Nowadays "Button polyps, assorted" are almost impossible to find. Which is funny, really - because the morphs that were included in any collection of "Button polyps, assorted" are very easy to find. Usually marketed as only a handful of polyps with each individual polyp costing nearly as much as a colony of "Button polyps, assorted". But I'm told that it's because their rarity commands the premium price. I wish we had known that 15 years ago, we all had tanks full of extremely rare valuable corals and we never knew it. Those rare corals were everywhere and in such large numbers, and they grew so quickly, that we would have been able to make a killing what with having such a large supply of such limited supply livestock.

But I just can't find "Button polyps, assorted" anymore. It appears that every single color morph of zoanthid has been granted it's own unique snowflake name. And apparently each and every last one of them is a rare, limited edition collectors item. Especially the Japanese ones, that come from vietnam and have never been near Japan. That's what makes them so special, I think.

Anyone know where I can buy some "Button polyps, assorted"? They really do seem to be the rarest ones of all.

[aquaph8]

This is the same thread over and over with the same people talking about it. Its a fad, something else will be cool tomorrow.

[MUCHO REEF]

The zoa forum, like every forum on the net is a cross section of diverse ideas, opinions, beliefs and ideologies. Sure this topic has come up numerous times, but the same is true with most everything posted in this forum and most others as well. I see pictures posted in the discussion thread when there's a photo sticky up top, but I don't say anything. I have seen a half dozen topics on Purple Hornets on the first page of the zoa forum numerous times over the years, but I won't say anything. There are numerous titles on the same topic in this forum over and over and over again, sometimes I answer, sometimes I allow others to answer, other times I won't read it at all. But that's just the way it is here and everywhere else. It is what it is and we just have to accept it. Sometimes I'll say something, but most times I don't. When I see a topic which I'm tired of seeing or have no interest in, I simply choose not to click on that topic. If I do read it and am tired of seeing it, I simply close it. Sometimes it's best to just look away and not click on something if it is a redundant topic, one that you don't agree with or tired of seeing. But lets allow others to share their feelings on any topic here including the ones I, ( we ) agree and don't agree with.

I think kichimark posted this for his own valid reasons. He ask a question and reefers are simply answering it. The title of his thread began with "why". Just my opinion is all, no offense to anyone.


Mucho

[aquaph8]

Like you, I gave my opinion.

[KafudaFish]

I don't think I would call it an attack personally.

Many people have different opinions and what they want to do in this hobby. What I want to do probably has very little in common with the reefer that lives 6 streets away from me.

I certainly cannot stop someone from giving frags away but I "can stop" them by selling a frag for some insane amount such as not buying and informing those that they really should think about the purchase price. I won't get into names and the rare discussion.

For the new guy/gal there is a whole world out there that was not around in 2000. Buying and selling knows no boundaries with online stores and sale forums like on RC.
If a newbie hits that sale area and looks around and sees current prices they believe that is how it is and they can pay out the nose or go without. Again this is a hobby so this is disposable income.

Yet the important thing is we the hobbyist have done this to ourselves. We are the ones who set prices.

I guess my big question is where will the hobby be in 5 years? Instead of $50 - $100 pp being "the norm" are we going to be seeing $250 - $500? Are you as a hobbyist going to pay that?

The other end could be no one is going to be keeping these anymore and they will be $1 pp.

So again it is not an attack per say but more of a why do we allow this?

[MUCHO REEF]

I heard someone tried to frag a fish, but he got away. :fish1:

[650-IS350]

I also think it's no attack personally to regular reefers/hobbyist , it's people discussing this issue. The ones that I believe would be more offended are the ones that are to gain from all the sky rocket prices / hyping etc etc that has been brought up from time to time.

I have friends that also operate LFS, and I don't see them hyping or having skyrocket pricing on their corals. And those are the ones that I used to support when I used to be fully vested in this hobby. If I was still much into it they would be the ones I would only be buying from.

[kichimark]

ahhhh this here of all the above is what I like to see an was really looking for. Fellow reefers discussing among ourselves in detail with long responses. awesome. :beer:

[billsreef]

I have the single rarest type of zoas currently in the hobby, the fabled "Button polyps, assorted".

Years ago they were common and incredibly easy to find. Walk into any LFS and there you'd see tanks full of large (5"+) rocks completely covered in hundreds of "Button polyps, assorted" for maybe $30 a rock. Nowadays "Button polyps, assorted" are almost impossible to find. Which is funny, really - because the morphs that were included in any collection of "Button polyps, assorted" are very easy to find. Usually marketed as only a handful of polyps with each individual polyp costing nearly as much as a colony of "Button polyps, assorted". But I'm told that it's because their rarity commands the premium price. I wish we had known that 15 years ago, we all had tanks full of extremely rare valuable corals and we never knew it. Those rare corals were everywhere and in such large numbers, and they grew so quickly, that we would have been able to make a killing what with having such a large supply of such limited supply livestock.

But I just can't find "Button polyps, assorted" anymore. It appears that every single color morph of zoanthid has been granted it's own unique snowflake name. And apparently each and every last one of them is a rare, limited edition collectors item. Especially the Japanese ones, that come from vietnam and have never been near Japan. That's what makes them so special, I think.

Anyone know where I can buy some "Button polyps, assorted"? They really do seem to be the rarest ones of all.

Those $30 dollar zoa colonies were the size of a football and full of wild colors. Now they get snagged by chop shops and sold by the polyp has "rare".

The thing that really gets me about those paying the high prices is that they defend paying a several thousand percent mark up for something with a fancy marketing gimmick name, and at the same time complain loudly about the LFS selling anything for a mere 100% or less mark up :rolleyes:

With the sellers, yeah they just figured out a better marketing gimmick to get people to believe the common is rare, and they have magic sources from countries that don't export. They are just did a good job of learning from PT Barnum ;)

[Friday Night]

This again Kichimark....ahhhhhhh cant take it... *Puts zoa juice in eye*

To each his\her own. You work for your coin do whatever you want with it. I just say always haggle as well as get a pulse of product prior before buying.......

The things you own end up owning you.

[kichimark]

This again Kichimark....ahhhhhhh cant take it... *Puts zoa juice in eye*

To each his\her own. You work for your coin do whatever you want with it. I just say always haggle as well as get a pulse of product prior before buying.......

The things you own end up owning you.

LMAO haha zoa juice? haha it is my first time doing a thread such as this haha. Gotta be careful when you haggle. If you do do not post on a forum that has a sponser of which the owner frequents haha. Didn't happen to me but to someone else and now its hard to haggle haha.

I remember those button polyps...now that I think of it its true...I do not see them anymore.

Billsreef- yes that can be annoying. As much as the lineage idea to me.

[organism]

If your local supermarket started selling month old rump roast as $30/lb fillet mignon, is that supply and demand just because people buy it? Would that be ok strictly because people are wiling to pay it?

If a used car salesman talks you into buying a primo ltd rare mercedes for $90k, then you get it home and all of a sudden the stickers fall off and it's a volvo, is that just supply and demand because you bought it?

You thought you were getting an expensive mercedes because that's what the salesman advertised it as, but instead you paid $90k on a volvo they bought for $100, polished up real shiny and threw some fancy stickers on. It's not your job to know what a volvo or a mercedes is, especially if you're new to cars and don't know much of anything about them, because the salesman's job is cars and there is an inherent trust there that the salesman is willfully violating.

This has less than zero to do with supply and demand. If you're making the argument of supply and demand then you don't understand the industry, because it's really all about smoke and mirrors and chicanery. Spend a few weeks on the wholesale/import side you'll change your tune real quick.

Every single "LE" coral in the country, none of which are rare, the original vendor could have made bank on by selling the colony for $200-250. For the colony. Including every name brand chalice. All of them. So from $200 (retail, they paid a lot less) for a 60 eye colony to a markup of $900-$2000 per eye, that's not supply and demand, that's putting a mercedes sticker on a volvo, because if I told you how common all of those chalices really are you wouldn't believe me. If the vendors outed how common their "rare" corals really are they'd have to sell rump roast as rump roast and volvos as volvos. And that's why they get attacked for using cheap used car salesman tricks to take advantage of hobbyists that just don't know any better.

[Jacwil]

If your local supermarket started selling month old rump roast as $30/lb fillet mignon, is that supply and demand just because people buy it? Would that be ok strictly because people are wiling to pay it?

If a used car salesman talks you into buying a primo ltd rare mercedes for $90k, then you get it home and all of a sudden the stickers fall off and it's a volvo, is that just supply and demand because you bought it?

You thought you were getting an expensive mercedes because that's what the salesman advertised it as, but instead you paid $90k on a volvo they bought for $100, polished up real shiny and threw some fancy stickers on. It's not your job to know what a volvo or a mercedes is, especially if you're new to cars and don't know much of anything about them, because the salesman's job is cars and there is an inherent trust there that the salesman is willfully violating.

This has less than zero to do with supply and demand. If you're making the argument of supply and demand then you don't understand the industry, because it's really all about smoke and mirrors and chicanery. Spend a few weeks on the wholesale/import side you'll change your tune real quick.

Every single "LE" coral in the country, none of which are rare, the original vendor could have made bank on by selling the colony for $200-250. For the colony. Including every name brand chalice. All of them. So from $200 (retail, they paid a lot less) for a 60 eye colony to a markup of $900-$2000 per eye, that's not supply and demand, that's putting a mercedes sticker on a volvo, because if I told you how common all of those chalices really are you wouldn't believe me. If the vendors outed how common their "rare" corals really are they'd have to sell rump roast as rump roast and volvos as volvos. And that's why they get attacked for using cheap used car salesman tricks to take advantage of hobbyists that just don't know any better.

+1...well stated!!!!!!!

[jimmy_beaner]

Personally speaking, as a new reefer, I'm surprised that something we can all grow in our tanks costs as much as it does. I also am excited for the day when my corals grow large enough to be able to frag them and sell them at a reasonable cost to a fellow reefer who simply wants to enjoy the hobby without breaking the bank. It provides a way to recoup some of the purchase price, but also offers someone else a chance at a cheaper version of what they might buy in the store.

[XSharkboyX]

If your local supermarket started selling month old rump roast as $30/lb fillet mignon, is that supply and demand just because people buy it? Would that be ok strictly because people are wiling to pay it?

If a used car salesman talks you into buying a primo ltd rare mercedes for $90k, then you get it home and all of a sudden the stickers fall off and it's a volvo, is that just supply and demand because you bought it?

You thought you were getting an expensive mercedes because that's what the salesman advertised it as, but instead you paid $90k on a volvo they bought for $100, polished up real shiny and threw some fancy stickers on. It's not your job to know what a volvo or a mercedes is, especially if you're new to cars and don't know much of anything about them, because the salesman's job is cars and there is an inherent trust there that the salesman is willfully violating.

This has less than zero to do with supply and demand. If you're making the argument of supply and demand then you don't understand the industry, because it's really all about smoke and mirrors and chicanery. Spend a few weeks on the wholesale/import side you'll change your tune real quick.

Every single "LE" coral in the country, none of which are rare, the original vendor could have made bank on by selling the colony for $200-250. For the colony. Including every name brand chalice. All of them. So from $200 (retail, they paid a lot less) for a 60 eye colony to a markup of $900-$2000 per eye, that's not supply and demand, that's putting a mercedes sticker on a volvo, because if I told you how common all of those chalices really are you wouldn't believe me. If the vendors outed how common their "rare" corals really are they'd have to sell rump roast as rump roast and volvos as volvos. And that's why they get attacked for using cheap used car salesman tricks to take advantage of hobbyists that just don't know any better.

+ 1,000,000 Absolutely fantastic analogy! :beer:

[mallorieGgator]

I don't understand why this is such an issue.
1. Naming things is normal in every hobby. You have designer dogs, cats, and I was breeding leopard geckos for awhile and there certain color morphs that are now being named. It's what people do, they are proud of an animal they "produced" so they want to name it.
2. If people don't like the prices, then just don't buy it. It'll go down in price just like cell phones. I would have never paid $200 for an iPhone but I have one now because the price has gone down. If people can't sell a designer polyp for a lot of money, then they will drop the price.
3. This is a hobby, no one is forcing anyone to pay a certain price for a zoa so get over it.
4. A lot of the "attacking" most likely stems from the shock that prices have gone up...well, prices have gone up on a lot of things in this world so why are corals any different? Also, I believe some people will become slightly jelous so they may "attack" someone because of that.
5. Some people are charging too much for corals. They want to get what they paid for it but most likely they can't so people are letting them know. A lot of people don't understand that the price goes down by the time the coral has made enough polyps to sell a frag.
6. Look at Chalices, a lot of people have no problem paying $300 an eye for a chalice and most people don't complain about the prices there.

My point is I think people need to get over it. It's a hobby, if you can't afford a certain coral, just wait it out and you can get it eventually once the price goes down.

[djkms]

I don't understand why this is such an issue.
1. Naming things is normal in every hobby. You have designer dogs, cats, and I was breeding leopard geckos for awhile and there certain color morphs that are now being named. It's what people do, they are proud of an animal they "produced" so they want to name it.
2. If people don't like the prices, then just don't buy it. It'll go down in price just like cell phones. I would have never paid $200 for an iPhone but I have one now because the price has gone down. If people can't sell a designer polyp for a lot of money, then they will drop the price.
3. This is a hobby, no one is forcing anyone to pay a certain price for a zoa so get over it.
4. A lot of the "attacking" most likely stems from the shock that prices have gone up...well, prices have gone up on a lot of things in this world so why are corals any different? Also, I believe some people will become slightly jelous so they may "attack" someone because of that.
5. Some people are charging too much for corals. They want to get what they paid for it but most likely they can't so people are letting them know. A lot of people don't understand that the price goes down by the time the coral has made enough polyps to sell a frag.
6. Look at Chalices, a lot of people have no problem paying $300 an eye for a chalice and most people don't complain about the prices there.

My point is I think people need to get over it. It's a hobby, if you can't afford a certain coral, just wait it out and you can get it eventually once the price goes down.


Hello!!!! My name is DJKMS and I am part of the price complaint crew:dance:

Just about everything you posted here is narrow minded and you are exactly the type of person these gougers cater to!

Let me break this down real simply for you.

Disclaimer!!!!: If I forget parts of this chain of events or mess it up somehow I am sorry, going off of memory here and us geezer reefers memory is not as good as you young whippersnappers.

A person in a third world country (yes I say third world because a majority of the reefs in the world are adjacent to 3rd world countries, areas) grabs their swim/snorkel gear and heads out to the ocean. They harvest corals, inverts, fish etc for the day. If they are good, at the end of the day they might collect a small fish stores worth of livestock.

Now I do believe transhippers pay the collectors. The collector makes pennies per livestock, probably not even $5-$10 a day. Remember they just collected a small fish stores worth of stock! This has not changed in 30 years.

The transhipper then brings massive amounts of coral, fish and livestock stateside or to a coast near you.

The livestock is then sold to a wholesale distributor. No clue how much but lets guess ~$5 per colony. I didnt say frag, I said colony. Lets say the average colony is 5". Now keep basic economics in mind folks; these are massive shipments, enough to fill hundreds of fish stores with stock. Buying in bulk saves money.

Now take a second to think about the amount of livestock that travels through a distributor. There is absolutely no way a wholesaler is going to go through every bit of livestock to name this and name that. Time is money and it would not financially make sense for a decent size wholesaler to spend the time to name the thousands upon thousands of different types of corals and livestock going through their systems.

If you have never peaked around what a wholesaler looks like take a look at some of these pictures
http://www.qualitymarine.com/About
That should give you a idea of just how much volume they do.

Now the wholesaler sells the product to the LFS, the basement fraggers, the chop shops, you name it. Now some of the more reputable wholesalers like quality marine do some pretty serious checks on you before they will sell to you. For example if you have a frag tank in your basement and a business license QM is not even going to look your way.

To save on costs your fish store is picking up their recently purchased livestock from the airport. It is MUCH MUCH cheaper that way then you or I getting a coral shipped to us that cost $50 overnight. Fish stores can get complete shipments for less than $200 (shipping).

But wait a minute DJKMS you haven't talked about the LE, Rare, Superduperimcoolerthanyoucoral yet???? See you are paying attention! Lets go back to the collector. He/She doesnt wake up in the morning and say "Im going diving today to try to find a Tryee Jason Fox Cuban Deepwater Zoa today because those always make me more money!". The collector is not getting paid any more for collecting a Tryee acro then a average green acro. The transhipper doesnt give a crap about names and neither does the wholesaler, they dont waste the time or resources.

Now the LFS has their shipment sitting in their tanks and they notice a coral they have never seen before! At this point a few things can happen. Lets pass this coral on to a local reefer and sell it for the average markup as other corals. Or lets slap on a fancy name, mark it up 1,000% and make some dough. I know for a fact that some online vendors, frag dealers, etc make it a point to find "new" corals. I even know a guy who if he gets a "new" coral in he calls Tyree to see if he can get his name on it to make money.

My point is the collector is not making more money on named corals. The transhipper is not making more money on named corals. The wholesaler is not making more money on named corals (I do think they are starting to wise up to the idiots though and are more on the lookout for named corals and charging accordingly).

15 years ago there was no such thing as named corals. So now, years later some jackwad collector slaps his name on a coral and thats ok? We are supposed to just sit back and take it because thats the norm with society?

Well if you want to buy your Volvo with a Mercedes sticker be my guest. its your money, but I for one will voice my opinion about it and I will voice it to you because its this type of complacency that is sending this hobby down a slippery slope that none of us will be able to afford especially with Snorkelbob talking out his backside.

Have a good day!

[mallorieGgator]

Hello!!!! My name is DJKMS and I am part of the price complaint crew:dance:

Just about everything you posted here is narrow minded and you are exactly the type of person these gougers cater to!

Let me break this down real simply for you.

Disclaimer!!!!: If I forget parts of this chain of events or mess it up somehow I am sorry, going off of memory here and us geezer reefers memory is not as good as you young whippersnappers.

A person in a third world country (yes I say third world because a majority of the reefs in the world are adjacent to 3rd world countries, areas) grabs their swim/snorkel gear and heads out to the ocean. They harvest corals, inverts, fish etc for the day. If they are good, at the end of the day they might collect a small fish stores worth of livestock.

Now I do believe transhippers pay the collectors. The collector makes pennies per livestock, probably not even $5-$10 a day. Remember they just collected a small fish stores worth of stock! This has not changed in 30 years.

The transhipper then brings massive amounts of coral, fish and livestock stateside or to a coast near you.

The livestock is then sold to a wholesale distributor. No clue how much but lets guess ~$5 per colony. I didnt say frag, I said colony. Lets say the average colony is 5". Now keep basic economics in mind folks; these are massive shipments, enough to fill hundreds of fish stores with stock. Buying in bulk saves money.

Now take a second to think about the amount of livestock that travels through a distributor. There is absolutely no way a wholesaler is going to go through every bit of livestock to name this and name that. Time is money and it would not financially make sense for a decent size wholesaler to spend the time to name the thousands upon thousands of different types of corals and livestock going through their systems.

If you have never peaked around what a wholesaler looks like take a look at some of these pictures
http://www.qualitymarine.com/About
That should give you a idea of just how much volume they do.

Now the wholesaler sells the product to the LFS, the basement fraggers, the chop shops, you name it. Now some of the more reputable wholesalers like quality marine do some pretty serious checks on you before they will sell to you. For example if you have a frag tank in your basement and a business license QM is not even going to look your way.

To save on costs your fish store is picking up their recently purchased livestock from the airport. It is MUCH MUCH cheaper that way then you or I getting a coral shipped to us that cost $50 overnight. Fish stores can get complete shipments for less than $200 (shipping).

But wait a minute DJKMS you haven't talked about the LE, Rare, Superduperimcoolerthanyoucoral yet???? See you are paying attention! Lets go back to the collector. He/She doesnt wake up in the morning and say "Im going diving today to try to find a Tryee Jason Fox Cuban Deepwater Zoa today because those always make me more money!". The collector is not getting paid any more for collecting a Tryee acro then a average green acro. The transhipper doesnt give a crap about names and neither does the wholesaler, they dont waste the time or resources.

Now the LFS has their shipment sitting in their tanks and they notice a coral they have never seen before! At this point a few things can happen. Lets pass this coral on to a local reefer and sell it for the average markup as other corals. Or lets slap on a fancy name, mark it up 1,000% and make some dough. I know for a fact that some online vendors, frag dealers, etc make it a point to find "new" corals. I even know a guy who if he gets a "new" coral in he calls Tyree to see if he can get his name on it to make money.

My point is the collector is not making more money on named corals. The transhipper is not making more money on named corals. The wholesaler is not making more money on named corals (I do think they are starting to wise up to the idiots though and are more on the lookout for named corals and charging accordingly).

15 years ago there was no such thing as named corals. So now, years later some jackwad collector slaps his name on a coral and thats ok? We are supposed to just sit back and take it because thats the norm with society?

Well if you want to buy your Volvo with a Mercedes sticker be my guest. its your money, but I for one will voice my opinion about it and I will voice it to you because its this type of complacency that is sending this hobby down a slippery slope that none of us will be able to afford especially with Snorkelbob talking out his backside.

Have a good day!

I'm actually open minded and I have never paid out the butt for a polyp or a colony. I don't buy zoas because of the name, I just buy what I like. The main part of what I said is that if people don't like paying a ton of money for something then don't do it. If it bothers you, then don't buy it. No one is making anyone buy anything. If you are upset about how little people are getting paid, that's your view on it. I don't disagree that it's not right. However, my view is if you don't like the price, don't put a demand on the market and the price will drop. I'm just letting you know my thoughts and by telling me I'm narrow minded, I think that makes you a bit of a hippocrite.

[mallorieGgator]

Also, your comment is pretty demeaning. Maybe you would get further with your side of the argument if you weren't talking to me like a I'm a child.

[djkms]

Mallorie,

The problem is that people new to the hobby don't know any better! They see that lovely photoshopped chalice or zoa and buy right into it. Just because YOU are smarter than paying that money doesn't mean that the new guy knows any better.

I do want to apologize for singling you out, this is obviously a sensitive subject for some of us.

You say if we don't like the price then dont buy it and I agree with that. But we must educate people that they are being ripped off otherwise the $1,000 frag chop shop will continue to prosper.

[mallorieGgator]

I agree that we must educate new people. But sometimes people must educate themselves and if someone makes a hard mistake then they learn the hard way. All we can do is show that yes, some things are over priced. But we can only do so much. Sometimes the consumer must rely on common sense. Also, thanks for the apology. :)

[AuroraDrvr]

I see a lot of people talking about $30 Zoa colonies, and how that translates into companies ripping people off when they charge $100 for a polyp of something.

While the premise does hold true for the more generic zoas, it doesn't hold true for some of the more unique morphs.

I'm a fan of PE zoas, when I see a chop-shop charging $50 for a 10 head frag of RPE, I cringe knowing that RPE are imported as huge wild colonies, and sold for <$50 as a big colony, retail. My issue with simply say that people are overcharging because there are $30 colonies, lays in the fact that it simply is not true. Can you show me a wild colony of Blue Agaves? What about a huge wild $30 colony of Space Monsters or Sopranos? You can't, because they simply don't exist.

While I do think $75+ is outlandish for a polyp that easily reproduces and propogates in our tanks, I don't think a higher price than your run of the mill Eagle Eyes or something, is out of line.

[israel.kendall]

Djkms, actually some of these divers are trained in what to look for and do try to find specific corals that are in demand. They may not name them, but they absolutely look for them.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[djkms]

Djkms, actually some of these divers are trained in what to look for and do try to find specific corals that are in demand. They may not name them, but they absolutely look for them.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Serious? So these divers that probably dont even have a telephone or television know what a Jason Fox My Miami is?

Ahhh man im just going to shut up about this subject then and stick with my no name $30 colonies. I give up LOL

[aquaph8]

Thats how this country works. You the consumer pays high prices for something someone else bought at a lot lower price.(sometimes because they bought it in bulk sometimes not)
Walmart has been doing this for years.(They even produce 4 of the top 10 richest people in the world). How much you think walgreens paid for that prescription you picked up the otherday, how much do you think that computer your sitting in front of cost to make compared to how much you paid for it. Sure zoa's used to be a lot cheaper. Its cause not as many people wanted them. Its when people started wanting them that companies started coming up with names and ways to market them. Of course hobbiest also saw it as a way to make a buck and followed suite. The truth is that this hobby got really big really fast, and thats all happened with a slow economy(imagine if it was during a good economy). If you think the hobby is going back to the way it used to be your wrong. Its never going back and this is coming from someone who has nothing to gain ( I dont sell corals hardly at all and if I do its for really cheap or trade.) The market in this hobby gets bigger and bigger everyday and that need for the livestock gets bigger all the time. You can protest and threaten to quit the hobby all you want but its not gonna help. All you can do is trade with local hobbiest, spread the wealth. I have to admit that I love the fact that people cant go to the LFS and buy huge colonies in this country. I see pics of LFS in other countries with these beautiful colonies of SPS and it makes me sick. Think about how many new people get into this hobby everyday, go to the store and fill up there tank only to kill a full tank of live animals in a short period of time and move on to the next hobby. I would much rather see frags die then colonies. Those of us in the hobby for the long haul should be more than happy to grow out our frags. Should prices be cheaper and more realistic? Sure. But I should be able to fill up my gas tank for under 3.50 too. Theres better ways to fight this IMO. If you want cheaper prices just wait for the fads to die. Really dont be sorry for the new guy that has no problem droping hundreds on one or two frags cause he'll probably be selling them for nothing when he quits in a few months anyway.

[israel.kendall]

Serious? So these divers that probably dont even have a telephone or television know what a Jason Fox My Miami is?

Ahhh man im just going to shut up about this subject then and stick with my no name $30 colonies. I give up LOL

I don't know if they actually use the names, but have a read of this guys blog. He does get pictures sent to him of in demand corals, and he does train his divers. I doubt every operation is as well run as his, but I'm just saying it does happen.

This blog entry talks a little about it, as well as some opinions on other things, it's a good read:

http://eddie-coral-adventures.blogspot.com/2009/02/thoughts-on-wild-coral-export.html

[121]

How am I supposed to sell my colorful zoas at $200 per polyp if reefers keep making threads like this? http://i.min.us/jlMY4I.png (http://min.us/mvj7bHK)

[organism]

But sometimes people must educate themselves and if someone makes a hard mistake then they learn the hard way. Sometimes the consumer must rely on common sense.

So if you get month old rump roast as $30/lb fillet mignon at your local supermarket and discover the truth, then you, the victim who just wanted a good piece of steak to put on the table, are at fault for not wasting a ton of your time to properly educate yourself to all the various cuts of meat, their appearance, coloration, care, density, softness, and fat content required for a proper fillet mignon cut?

In that case I hope you take some chemistry classes to learn more about the specific boiling point of pure gasoline too, if you fill your tank with gas that's 10% water it's your own fault, you should've used some common sense before trusting the gas station. If your car dies on you, well, I hope you learned the hard way from your mistake.

[aquaph8]

You think the gas companies arent ripping you off too. If I buy a watermeon chalice and I get home and an aiptasia is in the bag then it would be like what your saying. But when I buy blue hornets for 25-50 a Polyp and I get blue hornets then yes its nobodys fault but mine.

[ryan820]

If your local supermarket started selling month old rump roast as $30/lb fillet mignon, is that supply and demand just because people buy it? Would that be ok strictly because people are wiling to pay it?

If a used car salesman talks you into buying a primo ltd rare mercedes for $90k, then you get it home and all of a sudden the stickers fall off and it's a volvo, is that just supply and demand because you bought it?

You thought you were getting an expensive mercedes because that's what the salesman advertised it as, but instead you paid $90k on a volvo they bought for $100, polished up real shiny and threw some fancy stickers on. It's not your job to know what a volvo or a mercedes is, especially if you're new to cars and don't know much of anything about them, because the salesman's job is cars and there is an inherent trust there that the salesman is willfully violating.

This has less than zero to do with supply and demand. If you're making the argument of supply and demand then you don't understand the industry, because it's really all about smoke and mirrors and chicanery. Spend a few weeks on the wholesale/import side you'll change your tune real quick.



A fool and his money are soon parted (disclaimer-- I'm not calling anyone a fool here-- its just a phrase). Never rely on a sales persons' honesty in selling you anything. You should inform yourself before buying anything so you know precisely what you're getting. So I disagree-- it has very much to do with supply and demand. Anytime you buy anything, you're casting a vote to have more of that thing-- junk or amazing find or otherwise.

What is it they say on the after school specials? Knowledge is power! Don't let your power go out by buying blissfully unaware.

...Or is it conjunction junction whats your function?

[Turbovr3six]

Very well put Djkms! :thumbsup:

To the topic on hand: It's not about "if you don't like it, then don't buy it". It's about spreading the word about extremely over priced corals. The ONLY reason I can see a coral being "rare" is if it takes extensive effort to collect it. Most collectors are out there in little wooden boats with a snorkel. The "rare" corals IMO are the ones that require a more involved collection procedure. If the coral is only found in (lets say) 60M deep water, then the diver will need more money to collect it. Gas for bigger boat to get to dive location, O2, Etc.

I think the naming of corals is good, because it makes it easier to identify them. But to put Jason Fox or Tyree in front of the name is ridiculous.

[organism]

A fool and his money are soon parted (disclaimer-- I'm not calling anyone a fool here-- its just a phrase). Never rely on a sales persons' honesty in selling you anything. You should inform yourself before buying anything so you know precisely what you're getting. So I disagree-- it has very much to do with supply and demand. Anytime you buy anything, your casting a vote to have more of that thing-- junk or amazing find or otherwise.

What is it they say on the after school specials? Knowledge is power! Don't let your power go out by buying blissfully unaware.

...Or is it conjunction junction whats your function?


Ryan, imo that post is such a fail on so many levels... You'd need a sterile lab in your house to petri dish all incoming foods to make sure they're e. coli free, and keep your chemistry book handy so that you can reagent test your salt mix to make sure it's not 100ppm copper. You wouldn't want to leave that trust in the hands of the salesman...

There's an implied covenant of trust in the seller/buyer relationship that's integral to how a society runs :)

[650-IS350]

In that case I hope you take some chemistry classes to learn more about the specific boiling point of pure gasoline too, if you fill your tank with gas that's 10% water it's your own fault, you should've used some common sense before trusting the gas station. If your car dies on you, well, I hope you learned the hard way from your mistake. LOL, Trust me, this is a $1300 mistake/issue that I'm now dealing with, got my insurance involved/my dealership and Shell (soon), But to those saying that I should know better, I got from a big company known retailer (SHELL).. and didn't get it from a rottenrobbies or something like that. But I guess I should have known not to go to shell due to CONTAMINATED GAS right......

The true intent of this thread is to inform people of what's going on. As for supply and demand, LMAO it's a BIG ocean out there corals aren't rare just some haven't been collected as much YET . People cherry picking and finding these new corals @ the tranships/ wholesalers are the same ones dictating the price. Also I don't think a while coral / new coral that was accidentally found on a wild rock shipment dictates thousands of dollars for an eye or a polyp.

Lets not even start comparing corals to collectible coins, rare cars, paintings , mass assembled items/goods etc... apples and oranges before anyone starts adding it to the debate.

[mallorieGgator]

So if you get month old rump roast as $30/lb fillet mignon at your local supermarket and discover the truth, then you, the victim who just wanted a good piece of steak to put on the table, are at fault for not wasting a ton of your time to properly educate yourself to all the various cuts of meat, their appearance, coloration, care, density, softness, and fat content required for a proper fillet mignon cut?

In that case I hope you take some chemistry classes to learn more about the specific boiling point of pure gasoline too, if you fill your tank with gas that's 10% water it's your own fault, you should've used some common sense before trusting the gas station. If your car dies on you, well, I hope you learned the hard way from your mistake.

Interesting analogy and I agree at this level there isn't much a consumer can do. However, if there is word out in the public that a gas station is watering down fuel or a supermarket is selling bad meat and a consumer doesn't use common sense and buys gas or meat from the stores, then it is their fault since they didn't listen.
With the zoas (and any coral), it's the same way. We can educate people until our fingers bleed and our faces turn blue but it's up to the consumer to take the advice. If they don't do the research before they fork out $500 then they must have deep pockets if they don't care to research something so expensive. We can only do so much.

[kichimark]

Now take a second to think about the amount of livestock that travels through a distributor. There is absolutely no way a wholesaler is going to go through every bit of livestock to name this and name that. Time is money and it would not financially make sense for a decent size wholesaler to spend the time to name the thousands upon thousands of different types of corals and livestock going through their systems.

If you have never peaked around what a wholesaler looks like take a look at some of these pictures
http://www.qualitymarine.com/About
That should give you a idea of just how much volume they do.

Now the wholesaler sells the product to the LFS, the basement fraggers, the chop shops, you name it. Now some of the more reputable wholesalers like quality marine do some pretty serious checks on you before they will sell to you. For example if you have a frag tank in your basement and a business license QM is not even going to look your way.



You know I actually applied for a job at QM when I was an aquarist intern at long beach. They were looking for someone to frag colonies. Believe it or not there was a test to judge some random corals to see if they have potential.
So in other words the wholesalers are taking the time to chop up colonies.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1876690&highlight=quality+marine

[ryan820]

Ryan, imo that post is such a fail on so many levels... You'd need a sterile lab in your house to petri dish all incoming foods to make sure they're e. coli free, and keep your chemistry book handy so that you can reagent test your salt mix to make sure it's not 100ppm copper. You wouldn't want to leave that trust in the hands of the salesman...

There's an implied covenant of trust in the seller/buyer relationship that's integral to how a society runs :)

Good to know. Thanks.

[mallorieGgator]

So I can walk into a LFS and use the buyer/seller trust theory?

[aquaph8]

So I can walk into a LFS and use the buyer/seller trust theory?

Of course you can. LFS are all trained really well to be the most honest people around. Thats what this thread is all about. "Training people so they dont get ripped off".

[kichimark]

Of course you can. LFS are all trained really well to be the most honest people around. Thats what this thread is all about. "Training people so they dont get ripped off".

This thread morphed into something else haha. Its all good.

[mattGgator]

...If a used car salesman talks you into buying a primo ltd rare mercedes for $90k, then you get it home and all of a sudden the stickers fall off and it's a volvo, is that just supply and demand because you bought it?...


So your saying its ok purchase a car without first doing research, and to go ahead and just trust the USED CAR SALESMAN, the epitome of scam artist? If thats the case I have a rare limited edition Acura RSX you can steal for $50K...

To answer your question, no, its not supply and demand. Thats completely false representation of a product that an INFORMED consumer would be able to recognize immediately.

My point here is, educate yourself, you can't always trust the proverbial used car salesman (in this case coral salesman). Isn't that the reason this forum exists?

[650-IS350]

Which is why this thread was created and others like it with the intent
To educate but it always turns to something else due to VARIOUS reasons
To let people get the data and make informed decisions themselves

[billsreef]

I don't understand why this is such an issue.
1. Naming things is normal in every hobby. You have designer dogs, cats, and I was breeding leopard geckos for awhile and there certain color morphs that are now being named. It's what people do, they are proud of an animal they "produced" so they want to name it.

Ah, but in this case they didn't produce anything. They just gave a gimmicky name to a wild animal animal.

6. Look at Chalices, a lot of people have no problem paying $300 an eye for a chalice and most people don't complain about the prices there.

Yup, and the same people will complain about an LFS marking up a cleaner shrimp 100% after paying a several thousand % mark up on that chalice. Seems pretty silly to me.

I agree that we must educate new people. But sometimes people must educate themselves and if someone makes a hard mistake then they learn the hard way. All we can do is show that yes, some things are over priced. But we can only do so much. Sometimes the consumer must rely on common sense. Also, thanks for the apology. :)

Indeed. The attempt to educate is what several of us old timers are trying to do ;)

Can you show me a wild colony of Blue Agaves? What about a huge wild $30 colony of Space Monsters or Sopranos? You can't, because they simply don't exist.

Just where do you think those originally came from? They aren't the product of breeding efforts or genetic engineering, they came from the wild ;)

I don't know if they actually use the names, but have a read of this guys blog. He does get pictures sent to him of in demand corals, and he does train his divers. I doubt every operation is as well run as his, but I'm just saying it does happen.

This blog entry talks a little about it, as well as some opinions on other things, it's a good read:

http://eddie-coral-adventures.blogspot.com/2009/02/thoughts-on-wild-coral-export.html

Eddie is a rare exception. It comes from his perspective of having been in the hobby and the retail end of the trade in the US before he got into exporting. If you read some of what he wrote, you'll notice he talks about multi thousand percent chop shop mark ups from wild caught stock.

In that case I hope you take some chemistry classes to learn more about the specific boiling point of pure gasoline too, if you fill your tank with gas that's 10% water it's your own fault, you should've used some common sense before trusting the gas station. If your car dies on you, well, I hope you learned the hard way from your mistake.

10% water, eh? I'll bet that gas started out with 10% ethanol, which pulled out water from the atmosphere. It's sort of liking buying aquacultured coral, only to find out it is nothing more than a healed frag of a chopped wild coral.

[organism]

Yup, and the same people will complain about an LFS marking up a cleaner shrimp 100% after paying a several thousand % mark up on that chalice. Seems pretty silly to me.

Too true, and then there's always the arguments of how expensive salt's gotten these days. I've seen threads where people that have a $900 speck of chalice in their avatar complain about how they had to drive 20 miles across town because that LFS's salt is $5 cheaper than the one by their house.

[mallorieGgator]

Too true, and then there's always the arguments of how expensive salt's gotten these days. I've seen threads where people that have a $900 speck of chalice in their avatar complain about how they had to drive 20 miles across town because that LFS's salt is $5 cheaper than the one by their house.

Lol! I'd love to see that thread. :D

[SIR PATRICK]

I see no attacks....at least not very often.

I see debate, and much needed debate it is. How else is anyone going to know that their $50 polyp actually, somewhere down the line cost about 10 cents.....if not cheaper.

The prices and comercialism of the hobby has been very slow, and has somehow taken over the hobby and pulled the wool over us reefers eyes, making us think things the way they really arent. Its a shame....

Thats why you see so much discussion on the subject.

Those that feel passionate on the subject will not stop, and should not stop. Unless you own a store or buisness, this is a hobby- and that little piece of information has been lost somewhere down the line.....

[sixliner22]

You guys think that coral prices are outrageous now?? Wait till CITES fully bans importation of all corals from around the world.

[organism]

You guys think that coral prices are outrageous now?? Wait till CITES fully bans importation of all corals from around the world.

I think you might be thinking of the US banning coral imports, which is likely. CITES on the other hand is an international trade agreement, and as a result isn't swayed by fake environmentalist pseudo-science propaganda.

[organism]

Lol! I'd love to see that thread. :D

There's tons of them if you search around, each one is facepalm material :D

[mallorieGgator]

There's tons of them if you search around, each one is facepalm material :D

Lol! I shall search!

[XSharkboyX]

Those that feel passionate on the subject will not stop, and should not stop. Unless you own a store or buisness, this is a hobby- and that little piece of information has been lost somewhere down the line.....

:beer: Agreed!

[kichimark]

You guys think that coral prices are outrageous now?? Wait till CITES fully bans importation of all corals from around the world.

watch this be considered still part of the good old days if this happens.

[A. Grandis]

Bottom line: if you buy, they will sell.
Also, before they would get wild colonies. Today the frags are from aquaculture and they will try make the extra money. The excuse is that they are taking the time and investment for the aquacultured frags.
the system changed and only some people noticed.
That's the reality.
Grandis.

[organism]

Bottom line: if you buy, they will sell.
Also, before they would get wild colonies. Today the frags are from aquaculture and they will try make the extra money. The excuse is that they are taking the time and investment for the aquacultured frags.
the system changed and only some people noticed.
That's the reality.
Grandis.

Nope, that's not the reality, that's the fantasy. Today more than ever they get wild colonies and chop shop them. A lot of frags used to be aquacultured 8 years ago, and now it's just a very small percentage because vendors rely on the misconception that if it's on a frag plug then it must be aquacultured. The system did change, just in the opposite direction.

[billsreef]

Bottom line: if you buy, they will sell.
Also, before they would get wild colonies. Today the frags are from aquaculture and they will try make the extra money. The excuse is that they are taking the time and investment for the aquacultured frags.
the system changed and only some people noticed.
That's the reality.
Grandis.

Read some of Eddie's blog, the link is one of the posts above. In reality, most of the so called "aquacultured" frags are chop shopped from wild imports. There was a day you could buy a multi branched SPS frag, and it would substantial encrusting of the base...now such frags are barely encrusted because they are chopped and barely allowed to attach before sale. Another interesting note is just how much wild stock these "aquaculture" places import, some of them are actually the largest importers of corals. Seems a bit strange for an "aquaculture" operation to be importing so many corals.

[cjdevito]

Another interesting note is just how much wild stock these "aquaculture" places import, some of them are actually the largest importers of corals. Seems a bit strange for an "aquaculture" operation to be importing so many corals.

Know what else seems a bit strange? The prevalence of coral predator hitchhikers on "aquacultured" corals. Y'know, the corals that have been in grow out tanks for months while the grower patiently waits for them to reach a saleable size? Where they have plenty of time for observation of said corals, and a vested interest in seeing them grow quickly and with vigor? Where the presence of predators would significantly cut into their bottom line, potentially devastating their broodstock but at the least cutting down on the amount of product they could produce in any given period?

Gee.

[djkms]

So what online vendors can we trust to have true aquacultured? I have been having issues with wild colonies not surviving in my system. Not all but I would say 50% of them die within the first couple of months. I dont want to buy "aquacultured" from a vendor just to face the same issue as I do with wild colonies because they misrepresented themselves.

I would venture to guess Live Aquaria's Aquacultured is true but who else?

[cjdevito]

So what online vendors can we trust to have true aquacultured? I have been having issues with wild colonies not surviving in my system. Not all but I would say 50% of them die within the first couple of months. I dont want to buy "aquacultured" from a vendor just to face the same issue as I do with wild colonies because they misrepresented themselves.

I would venture to guess Live Aquaria's Aquacultured is true but who else?

Whooo. Honestly, I'm reluctant to name names on RC. It's their playground, their rules, and their relationship with their sponsors. I'll confirm that you are indeed very safe with Live Aquaria and can trust that however they label a coral, it will be accurate. Beyond that the easiest recommendation is stick to sites that offer WYSIWYG photos of their frags; with a photo of the individual frag you can usually see if the coral has encrusted (assuming it's a type that will) the frag plug they've mounted it to. Even that isn't a 100% guarantee of anything beyond the coral having been in that dealer's care for at least a several week minimum, but at least it should show that the coral is handling captivity alright and growing.

Your issues with 50% of the wild colonies you get dying is a bit troubling, though, since that shouldn't be happening. When people talk about problems with wild colonies we're generally talking about problems that stem from poor shippers (like wild collected xenia, or large acropora colonies) that don't have a great track record with the collection, holding, shipping process. Or we're talking corals that have specific difficulties, like goniopora in general or elegance corals from indonesia.

Assuming the mortality rate you're seeing is across the board and not confined to specific issues like mentioned above, the first question I'd ask is where are you getting them? Mostly from one LFS or vendor? If so, I'd recommend trying somewhere else.

[organism]

So what online vendors can we trust to have true aquacultured? I have been having issues with wild colonies not surviving in my system.

Here's a cool video I saw floating around facebook this morning, an rc sponsor too :)

http://www.spokesman.com/video/2011/mar/02/coral-farming/

[djkms]

I dont want to sidetrack this thread more so then I already did. The corals I am having a problem with have been SPS. I posted a thread in the SPS section in regards to it.

So RC would have a problem us listing vendors if they are not sponsors? I guess I dont understand I see it all the time with no repercussions.

Im not saying to name the vendors who chop shop or improperly list, im looking for the good guys without naming the bad guys :)

I will be more proactive at looking for WYSIWYG.

I wish ORA would sell to the general public.

[billsreef]

So RC would have a problem us listing vendors if they are not sponsors? I guess I dont understand I see it all the time with no repercussions.

It's only a problem if the person dropping business names is somehow associated with that business ;)

Im not saying to name the vendors who chop shop or improperly list, im looking for the good guys without naming the bad guys :)

That's the best way to do it, avoids all sorts of trouble ;)

[bluenassarius]

Why wont it help, knowledge and information being passed is a the first thing you want when you want to cure something. Bringing this to light is that start to fixing this problem, I think people who hate this thought, bash this issue or want to shut it down are the ones who have nothing but to gain from all these sky rocket prices/hyping/name game or have etc Unless your fine with the price gouging, naming ,hyping and the absurb prices of corals now a days . That's just me and IMHO.


you can't really police it. there are always going to be newbs in the hobby. i remember a friend telling me about how he bought a "superman monti" and how he was going to make a killing when he resold frags from it after it grew out. he convinced his wife it was a good investment at $100 per half inch at the time. :lol: needless to say by the time it started growing out where it was viable to frag and resell.. it was being farmed out in the ocean. you could buy whole colonies at a few frags combined would cost..

i roll my eyes now after being on both sides of the spectrum.. commercial and hobbyist. there's a lot of greed and exploiting new hobbyists... it's the nature of the beast though. you don't see lions passing up an injured zebra on the savannah. :lol:

[bluenassarius]

I see a lot of people talking about $30 Zoa colonies, and how that translates into companies ripping people off when they charge $100 for a polyp of something.

While the premise does hold true for the more generic zoas, it doesn't hold true for some of the more unique morphs.

I'm a fan of PE zoas, when I see a chop-shop charging $50 for a 10 head frag of RPE, I cringe knowing that RPE are imported as huge wild colonies, and sold for <$50 as a big colony, retail. My issue with simply say that people are overcharging because there are $30 colonies, lays in the fact that it simply is not true. Can you show me a wild colony of Blue Agaves? What about a huge wild $30 colony of Space Monsters or Sopranos? You can't, because they simply don't exist.

While I do think $75+ is outlandish for a polyp that easily reproduces and propogates in our tanks, I don't think a higher price than your run of the mill Eagle Eyes or something, is out of line.

your in the wrong part of the country. its available at the LFS and even some stores that aren't soley for the purpose of selling aquatic goods. i remember picking up some superman rhodactis mushroom colony at this livestock feed store for $7. it was being sold at time per polyp $25+ by e-tailers. LFS that were in the know were marking it up but not as excessively as e-tailers. this store i purchased it from had it under daylight.

now i peruse the LFS from time to time to see what has been coming down the pipelines and see killer stuff for dirt cheap. i have to resist the urge to set up another tank as i see it as a prison sentence :lolspin:

[A. Grandis]

Nope, that's not the reality, that's the fantasy. Today more than ever they get wild colonies and chop shop them. A lot of frags used to be aquacultured 8 years ago, and now it's just a very small percentage because vendors rely on the misconception that if it's on a frag plug then it must be aquacultured. The system did change, just in the opposite direction.

Thanks organism!
Well, I've seen some frags that actually come with wild live rocks' pieces, but they were SPS or LPS species. I don't buy the frags and thought the wild Zoanthids' colonies were not coming to the market like before. :hmm4:

That IS disgusting!!!!:eek1:

[A. Grandis]

Read some of Eddie's blog, the link is one of the posts above. In reality, most of the so called "aquacultured" frags are chop shopped from wild imports. There was a day you could buy a multi branched SPS frag, and it would substantial encrusting of the base...now such frags are barely encrusted because they are chopped and barely allowed to attach before sale. Another interesting note is just how much wild stock these "aquaculture" places import, some of them are actually the largest importers of corals. Seems a bit strange for an "aquaculture" operation to be importing so many corals.

Thanks billsreef! I didn't want to hear that, but I believe that's the reality, yes!! I can see that!! We don't buy inverts here if not from Hawaiian waters, so I didn't think of that aspect.
I guess this is probably the worse of the market's today, then!
I'm shocked!
I think that happens here in Hawaii too, with the Hawaiian zoas.:hmm6:
Well, in reality there is NO aquacultured frags, then?
Probably not!!! If so, only small quantities, right?
Not good!
Grandis.

[A. Grandis]

So what online vendors can we trust to have true aquacultured? I have been having issues with wild colonies not surviving in my system. Not all but I would say 50% of them die within the first couple of months. I dont want to buy "aquacultured" from a vendor just to face the same issue as I do with wild colonies because they misrepresented themselves.

I would venture to guess Live Aquaria's Aquacultured is true but who else?

After knowing the reality, I wouldn't trust nobody.
Sorry!!!
Still shocked.:wildone:
Grandis.

[kichimark]

ofcourse there are aquacultured frags...just go to your local reef club :).

[A. Grandis]

"... While on the topic of aquaculture, let’s have a look at the false notion that keeping frags and promoting frags, even captive grown frags are deterring wild coral collection. The idea is good but again is flawed. Here is a typical example. A nice wild echino soon to be the “new watermelon chalice” is collected from the wild. It is sent to a wholesaler in the US. The coral gets picked up by a smart guy that specializes in fragging. He knows the value of this coral. I don’t blame the guy, to make money, I would do the same. So he cuts up the precious colony into many parts. Even glues them on a plug and let’s them heal. Then he smartly calls it a special name and starts to market it. The demand skyrockets. He is finally left with one piece to grow out. But he is still getting huge demand. The price starts to climb on this precious little thing. The frags become from an inch to three quarters, to half of an inch! The guy feeds the coral everyday and keeps it under pristine conditions hoping that it grows faster. The other guys who have bought the coral are doing the same thing. If the coral can grow fast enough to supply the demand, yes it can be kept internal. Unfortunately coral do not grow as fast we would like, so the pressure eventually mounts to the collector side – me! The lucky guy who found the precious piece originally goes back to the wholesaler and waits for the “wild coral” shipment to arrive every week. Heck, he even camps out and helps open up the boxes in hoping to find another piece or perhaps a new morph or coral that he can market again and make 100,000% profit! Of course this is not to mention his famous name that is being developed because of the precious chalice. Pictures are sent to overseas for that coral to be found, to me. Of course I say you and hundred other people are looking for this coral from the wild! They will pay whatever for it and will go any lengths to get it. The fishermen don’t really know so they will get whatever they find. If you are lucky one will be there and it could be a 15 inch monster. I’ve sent out such pieces (not the watermelon but another killer piece) and of course it got fragged. And for course I sent it for that such purpose because my customer had requested it, because his customer had requested it. And the demand eventually came from the hobbyists, trying to collect all the nicest pieces. Are you guys getting my point? The demand for zoos and palys are even worse. With all the crazy names out there being marketed under, and the demand skyrocketing, right now I export on the average of 150-200 of these at a time on a shipment.
..."

Form:
http://eddie-coral-adventures.blogspot.com/2009/02/thoughts-on-wild-coral-export.html

It goes on!
:worried:

Grandis.

[A. Grandis]

ofcourse there are aquacultured frags...just go to your local reef club :).

Well, if they trade...

[XSharkboyX]

"... While on the topic of aquaculture, let’s have a look at the false notion that keeping frags and promoting frags, even captive grown frags are deterring wild coral collection. The idea is good but again is flawed. Here is a typical example. A nice wild echino soon to be the “new watermelon chalice” is collected from the wild. It is sent to a wholesaler in the US. The coral gets picked up by a smart guy that specializes in fragging. He knows the value of this coral. I don’t blame the guy, to make money, I would do the same. So he cuts up the precious colony into many parts. Even glues them on a plug and let’s them heal. Then he smartly calls it a special name and starts to market it. The demand skyrockets. He is finally left with one piece to grow out. But he is still getting huge demand. The price starts to climb on this precious little thing. The frags become from an inch to three quarters, to half of an inch! The guy feeds the coral everyday and keeps it under pristine conditions hoping that it grows faster. The other guys who have bought the coral are doing the same thing. If the coral can grow fast enough to supply the demand, yes it can be kept internal. Unfortunately coral do not grow as fast we would like, so the pressure eventually mounts to the collector side – me! The lucky guy who found the precious piece originally goes back to the wholesaler and waits for the “wild coral” shipment to arrive every week. Heck, he even camps out and helps open up the boxes in hoping to find another piece or perhaps a new morph or coral that he can market again and make 100,000% profit! Of course this is not to mention his famous name that is being developed because of the precious chalice. Pictures are sent to overseas for that coral to be found, to me. Of course I say you and hundred other people are looking for this coral from the wild! They will pay whatever for it and will go any lengths to get it. The fishermen don’t really know so they will get whatever they find. If you are lucky one will be there and it could be a 15 inch monster. I’ve sent out such pieces (not the watermelon but another killer piece) and of course it got fragged. And for course I sent it for that such purpose because my customer had requested it, because his customer had requested it. And the demand eventually came from the hobbyists, trying to collect all the nicest pieces. Are you guys getting my point? The demand for zoos and palys are even worse. With all the crazy names out there being marketed under, and the demand skyrocketing, right now I export on the average of 150-200 of these at a time on a shipment.
..."

Form:
http://eddie-coral-adventures.blogspot.com/2009/02/thoughts-on-wild-coral-export.html

It goes on!
:worried:

Grandis.

Thank you for posting this! It's spot on. Another article where the ugly truth is established!

[kichimark]

Well, if they trade...

Many do. Great article btw. It is definitely a very complex topic. I gather my tank grown corals now put a demand on wild corals...hmmm I guess we are all guilty here.

[650-IS350]

Mark, that was basically the same idea/observation I was going to send you bruh.
BTW- Love the saying under you name... LMAO

[kichimark]

Mark, that was basically the same idea/observation I was going to send you bruh.
BTW- Love the saying under you name... LMAO



Haha I just hope people do not confuse it in regards to corals.

I also got it on my AR ejection port cover.

[650-IS350]

CO-sign... was gonna get the punisher on mine.

[kichimark]

CO-sign... was gonna get the punisher on mine.

On the receiver or port? I got mine on the receiver.

btw everyone this is the very rare "punisher paly". It engulfs any food item within seconds haha jk.

[650-IS350]

LMAO Mark. Donno where I'm gonna put it still deciding.

[XSharkboyX]

btw everyone this is the very rare "punisher paly". It engulfs any food item within seconds haha jk.

How much are they?$900 a polyp I will take 2...:wavehand:

[solastsummer]

I have been reefing for only a year, and all i have known are these "designer" corals, I dont know any different, maybe thats why I, and other reefers are OK with paying these prices, because thats the norm for us. Believe me if I could get "high end" corals for alot cheaper i would.

[XSharkboyX]

I have been reefing for only a year, and all i have known are these "designer" corals, I dont know any different, maybe thats why I, and other reefers are OK with paying these prices, because thats the norm for us. Believe me if I could get "high end" corals for alot cheaper i would.

Point proven... Newbies have absolutely no idea, they are completely blindsided when the walk into the hobby. This is why we all must speak out, to educate!

The first thing you must realize brother, is that there is no such thing as "high end" corals. Anyone who tells you other wise is trying to sell you something... You have been tricked right from the start.

[solastsummer]

I guess by high end I mean purrrrdy.

[kichimark]

How much are they?$900 a polyp I will take 2...:wavehand:

I can do that if you get an FFL to do a transfer :D. jk

[XSharkboyX]

I guess by high end I mean purrrrdy.

Believe me brother you can find "purrrrdy, and stunning" polyps without paying "high end" prices.
They may not be as mainstream as they used to be in some areas, as every single little price gouger strives to get their hands on them all, like beanie babies... The more the price gougers have, the more they control the price and system.
However, the truth remains, they are still available (where do you think they get them from for $30-60 a colony before they chop them up and sell them for $30-$60 a polyp?)... You just have to start searching.

[kichimark]

people just got to know what to look for. For example one of three large (300+) colonies I have are eagle eyes (my avatar). I bought it for like 40 bucks a year ago and it was not nearly as colorful as it is now. The store it was in had them under some very poor lighting and they were dull. Now they are bright and get the attention from people. In other words if you know what to look for you can get deals.

[SIR PATRICK]

^ Good old LFS diamonds in the rough....gotta love them!!!

[XSharkboyX]

^ good old lfs diamonds in the rough....gotta love them!!!

+1

[SIR PATRICK]

More "common" than many are lead to believe these days.....

I have found too many to mention "rare", "high end", and even "one of a kind" corals this way.

[XSharkboyX]

More "common" than many are lead to believe these days.....

I have found too many to mention "rare", "high end", and even "one of a kind" corals this way.

Agreed again! I recently picked up a rare find of zoas at a LFS. It was a $30 colony, over 200 polyps.

[KCMO Reefer]

Wholesale on Zoa rocks runs about $13.

[organism]

More "common" than many are lead to believe these days.....

I have found too many to mention "rare", "high end", and even "one of a kind" corals this way.

Too true, I found a 5"x6" "pot of gold" favia at an LFS once for $45, it was pretty colored up too just under crappy lighting. Sometimes I go LFS hopping, and at least 1 out of every 3 has something "rare" in it.