I can't keep zoas!

[MAVX]

i cannot keep zoas for some reason. i had a huge rock of 100 or so green/blue and red/purple zoas. i started them in the middle of the tank. they started closing up about a month after i got them, my 8 bulb t5 lighting was over a year old so i bought all brand new Giesemenn bulbs. 4 pure actinic, 2 actinic and 2 10k's. i also switched to instant ocean reef crystals and most of the zoas are still dead/dying. the ones that are still alive kinda moved to the back of the rock, or dropped off into the sand; maybe too much light? i have some yellow polyps which are growing like MAD. also, my pulsing zenea(sp) literally disintegrated over 3 days. all of my tests are great, but i just cant grow ****!

setup:
55g-25g sump
Poseidon pump
CPR skimmer
2 Koralia 3 powerheads
40lbs or so live rock
1lb of carbon in a bag
small amount of chaeto in the sump
tank temp is 78-79
salinity is between 24-25

livestock:
hippo tang
clown
sailfin tang
aiptasia eating filefish
2 green chromis
6 line wrasse
2 skunk cleaners
6 small snails, 1 large
5 or 6 blue leg hermits

i watch the wrasse and filefish constantly, the filefish will nip at the coral to get the smaller aiptasia but ive never seen it damage coral. the wrasse will look at the coral, but never bite at it. i've looked for the little snails that eat coral, but havent seen anything.

i change at least 20g per week, sometimes more. i'm unsure of my exact testing results because the LFS does it for free.

[SushiGirl]

Salinity is between 24 and 25? Do you mean 1.024 and 1.025? Very important to differentiate between 1.024 and 24. Can't really abbreviate in that area, the true numbers mean a lot.

Also, you need to get numbers from the LFS on your other parameters, that's very important to diagnosing problems. "Great" doesn't tell anyone anything! Better yet get your own test kits.

How old is the tank?

Also, unless you can watch the fish 24 hours a day, you don't know that they're not harassing/eating the polyps.

[A. Grandis]

Yeah. They can eat at night. Not only the fishes, but inverts, like snails and nudis.
+1 for the "salinity".
Carbon for the zoas. I would remove it. I don't know why people do that. Water changes are enough.

Grandis.

[SushiGirl]

I run carbon all the time, my zoas are fine...

[MUCHO REEF]

i cannot keep zoas for some reason. i had a huge rock of 100 or so green/blue and red/purple zoas. i started them in the middle of the tank. they started closing up about a month after i got them, my 8 bulb t5 lighting was over a year old so i bought all brand new Giesemenn bulbs. 4 pure actinic, 2 actinic and 2 10k's. i also switched to instant ocean reef crystals and most of the zoas are still dead/dying. the ones that are still alive kinda moved to the back of the rock, or dropped off into the sand; maybe too much light? i have some yellow polyps which are growing like MAD. also, my pulsing zenea(sp) literally disintegrated over 3 days. all of my tests are great, but i just cant grow ****!

setup:
55g-25g sump
Poseidon pump
CPR skimmer
2 Koralia 3 powerheads
40lbs or so live rock
1lb of carbon in a bag
small amount of chaeto in the sump
tank temp is 78-79
salinity is between 24-25

livestock:
hippo tang
clown
sailfin tang
aiptasia eating filefish
2 green chromis
6 line wrasse
2 skunk cleaners
6 small snails, 1 large
5 or 6 blue leg hermits

i watch the wrasse and filefish constantly, the filefish will nip at the coral to get the smaller aiptasia but ive never seen it damage coral. the wrasse will look at the coral, but never bite at it. i've looked for the little snails that eat coral, but havent seen anything.

i change at least 20g per week, sometimes more. i'm unsure of my exact testing results because the LFS does it for free.


Hello and welcome to RC.

The title of your thread is, "I can't keep zoas". You should never say that as it becomes a self fullfilling prophecy. I say, you can keep zoas my friend, you simply have to find out why you are having issues. 9 times out of 10, there is a measured explanation for most issues in our tanks. Through a process of ellimination, which is what I always do, one can isolate the issue. I see a several red flag screaming at me from your post.


Type of make up water?

Did you make any changes to your tank just before the polyp decline began?

Do you have a picture of the colony in question?

If not, describe them in detail.

You said they dropped off the rock. If they did, their physical appearance had already changed. Can you describe it?

I wouldn't have switched the salt if I were you.


You said all your parameters where in check. What test kits did you use and can you provide the readings anyway for us?


Do you mean xenia http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=xenia+coral&cp=6&pq=expeditious&rlz=1W1ADRA_en&bav=on.2,or.&wrapid=tljp1299443045515326&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&sa=X&ei=qwF0TYPuD8P48AaC0cSgDw&sqi=2&ved=0CCoQsAQ&biw=1003&bih=453

Pulsating Xenia are great indicators of water quality. Kinda like a canary in a coal mine. If your xenia died like that, something is out of whack here for sure.

I would really invest in some good test kits and test yourself and use the store as comparison. Me personally, I would never solely rely on LFS results. I'm not knocking LFS, but I have seen some very cheap test kits over the years being used by LFS on tanks with thousands of dollars worth of corals that someone has spent years to collect.

Mucho Reef


PS, the one thing I will say and many will disagree, but I would never keep a Hippo in a zoa tank. TROUBLE !!

[MAVX]

Salinity is between 24 and 25? Do you mean 1.024 and 1.025? Very important to differentiate between 1.024 and 24. Can't really abbreviate in that area, the true numbers mean a lot.

Also, you need to get numbers from the LFS on your other parameters, that's very important to diagnosing problems. "Great" doesn't tell anyone anything! Better yet get your own test kits.

How old is the tank?

Also, unless you can watch the fish 24 hours a day, you don't know that they're not harassing/eating the polyps.

right, they give me the parameter sheet every time, but they say its good so i usually dont keep it. yes, sorry about that; my salinity is between 1.024 and 1.025. i have a test kit which i havent been using because of aforementioned LFS testing. the tank is almost 3 years old, it was moved once about 2 years ago, and i did a complete substrate change from black arogonite to white sand (unsure of brand or type) about 9 months ago.

Hello and welcome to RC.

The title of your thread is, "I can't keep zoas". You should never say that as it becomes a self fullfilling prophecy. I say, you can keep zoas my friend, you simply have to find out why you are having issues. 9 times out of 10, there is a measured explanation for most issues in our tanks. Through a process of ellimination, which is what I always do, one can isolate the issue. I see a several red flag screaming at me from your post.


Type of make up water?

Did you make any changes to your tank just before the polyp decline began?

Do you have a picture of the colony in question?

If not, describe them in detail.

You said they dropped off the rock. If they did, their physical appearance had already changed. Can you describe it?

I wouldn't have switched the salt if I were you.


You said all your parameters where in check. What test kits did you use and can you provide the readings anyway for us?




Do you mean xenia http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=xenia+coral&cp=6&pq=expeditious&rlz=1W1ADRA_en&bav=on.2,or.&wrapid=tljp1299443045515326&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&sa=X&ei=qwF0TYPuD8P48AaC0cSgDw&sqi=2&ved=0CCoQsAQ&biw=1003&bih=453

Pulsating Xenia are great indicators of water quality. Kinda like a canary in a coal mine. If your xenia died like that, something is out of whack here for sure.

I would really invest in some good test kits and test yourself and use the store as comparison. Me personally, I would never solely rely on LFS results. I'm not knocking LFS, but I have seen some very cheap test kits over the years being used by LFS on tanks with thousands of dollars worth of corals that someone has spent years to collect.

Mucho Reef


PS, the one thing I will say and many will disagree, but I would never keep a Hippo in a zoa tank. TROUBLE !!


i use tap water which i mix salt in a 50g bucket with the recommended dose of Seachem PRIME and sits for at least 2-3 days before use and is constantly stirred by a pump.

not anything that i can remember other than using 50/50 frozen food.

i will take a pic as soon as i am done typing this.

instead of being fused to the rock, they look like a mass of zoas, their "fringe" (idk the real term) is rippled, but the ones that have fallen off are open about 25-40%

the LFS told me to switch salts (am i seeing a pattern here?)

my LFS said the pulsing xenia,"like "dirty" water, so the water was probably too clean and they died".


i did see my hippo bite off a head of my pulsing xenia before.

edit: thank you for the welcome, i will surely be here a lot more often.

[Bubbaboy]

I might think it's the tap water?

[MAVX]

this is one of the groups that fell off and is not in direct light.
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll66/mk3turbo8v/IMG_20110306_173232.jpg

this is the side that is in direct light.
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll66/mk3turbo8v/IMG_20110306_173431.jpg

this is the back side which gets very little light.
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll66/mk3turbo8v/IMG_20110306_173711.jpg

[paradox09]

I agree, try a better water source .

[MikeandNicole]

+1 on not using tap water

When did you get that zoa rock and did you do any dips on it at all? There is a bunch of stuff on there that is irritating and killing the zoas. The reason the one that dropped off it fine is because it is not being irritated. I see sponge on there and bubble algae that will both set back the zoa growth.

I would look at picking up some revive or coral RX and dipping the zoas. Also inspect the zoas before you buy them to see if they are a quality piece. If I see a colony that is already growing algae or has aipstatia or any other irritants, leave it alone.

[SIR PATRICK]

Without proper acclimation, I have always seen negative effects when changing old bulbs to new- especially MH or t5ho....especially when you are doing 8 bulbs all at once.

Word of advice-

Change out 2 bulbs at a time from now on, instead of all at once. Give a couple weeks before you change 2 more and so on. Much easier on the corals. Many polyps are very sensitive to light shock, and this method in bulb changing is tried and true.

I also have to agree with the Hippo tang. They can be very sneeky.

[kichimark]

I run carbon all the time, my zoas are fine...

I run carbon all the time too with no problems.

Going back to the original poster. Using tap water is dangerous. I do not know about your local water source but it can contain copper/nitrates/phosphates/chlorine/chloramines and many other harmful substances. I would get a RO/DI unit. You definitely will not regret it.

What salt did you switch too? I use a mixture of rc/io and test my wc water to make sure it is within range of the tanks parameters (DKH/MG/CA/S.G./TEMP/PH). I am just weird like that haha. I did try TM once but my corals hated it. I went back soon after the switch and believe this was due to them being used to a certain salt.

I noticed you change a lot of water each week. Why do you do this? What matters a lot is stability in the tank. 20 gallons or more of water each week changed on a 80gallon system can affect stability especially if you do not monitor the difference between the waters you are changing. I change 10 gallons every 2 weeks on my 90 gallon (really only about 60 gallons of water since rock/coral displacement factor) but thats just what works for my system.


I also have xenia (two types) and noticed when my nitrates were at the 10ppm+ range they would grow faster. I now have 0 nitrates (this is on an API test so it can actually be 0-4ppm to be honest) and what I have seen in these lowered nitrates is just a slower growth.


My family still hates me for taking out the blue hippo out a while back :(. I just didn't want to risk it haha.

[kichimark]

Without proper acclimation, I have always seen negative effects when changing old bulbs to new- especially MH or t5ho....especially when you are doing 8 bulbs all at once.

Word of advice-

Change out 2 bulbs at a time from now on, instead of all at once. Give a couple weeks before you change 2 more and so on. Much easier on the corals. Many polyps are very sensitive to light shock, and this method in bulb changing is tried and true.

I also have to agree with the Hippo tang. They can be very sneeky.

Excellent advice.

[birdman1979]

I think your light is too intense. I also think zoas benefit from amino acid/vitamin supplements. I started using vitachem and my zoas really responded well. People underestimate how bright t5's are. Try reducing your lighting or shading your zoas.

[MAVX]

+1 on not using tap water

When did you get that zoa rock and did you do any dips on it at all? There is a bunch of stuff on there that is irritating and killing the zoas. The reason the one that dropped off it fine is because it is not being irritated. I see sponge on there and bubble algae that will both set back the zoa growth.

I would look at picking up some revive or coral RX and dipping the zoas. Also inspect the zoas before you buy them to see if they are a quality piece. If I see a colony that is already growing algae or has aipstatia or any other irritants, leave it alone.

i got it in september i believe. no, i havent done any dips to them.

the zoas were absolutely beautiful when the gf and i picked them up with no signs of irritants.

Without proper acclimation, I have always seen negative effects when changing old bulbs to new- especially MH or t5ho....especially when you are doing 8 bulbs all at once.

Word of advice-

Change out 2 bulbs at a time from now on, instead of all at once. Give a couple weeks before you change 2 more and so on. Much easier on the corals. Many polyps are very sensitive to light shock, and this method in bulb changing is tried and true.

I also have to agree with the Hippo tang. They can be very sneeky.

my LFS told me it didnt matter and to put all 8 in at the same time.

I run carbon all the time too with no problems.

Going back to the original poster. Using tap water is dangerous. I do not know about your local water source but it can contain copper/nitrates/phosphates/chlorine/chloramines and many other harmful substances. I would get a RO/DI unit. You definitely will not regret it.

What salt did you switch too? I use a mixture of rc/io and test my wc water to make sure it is within range of the tanks parameters (DKH/MG/CA/S.G./TEMP/PH). I am just weird like that haha. I did try TM once but my corals hated it. I went back soon after the switch and believe this was due to them being used to a certain salt.

I noticed you change a lot of water each week. Why do you do this? What matters a lot is stability in the tank. 20 gallons or more of water each week changed on a 80gallon system can affect stability especially if you do not monitor the difference between the waters you are changing. I change 10 gallons every 2 weeks on my 90 gallon (really only about 60 gallons of water since rock/coral displacement factor) but thats just what works for my system.


I also have xenia (two types) and noticed when my nitrates were at the 10ppm+ range they would grow faster. I now have 0 nitrates (this is on an API test so it can actually be 0-4ppm to be honest) and what I have seen in these lowered nitrates is just a slower growth.


My family still hates me for taking out the blue hippo out a while back :(. I just didn't want to risk it haha.

i've always used instant ocean salt since i first started the tank, the only change i made was switching from normal instant ocean to instant ocean reef crystals. i change so much water because i get red algae on the sand and a light film of green on the glass, i figured it was nitrates so i've been changing more.

I think your light is too intense. I also think zoas benefit from amino acid/vitamin supplements. I started using vitachem and my zoas really responded well. People underestimate how bright t5's are. Try reducing your lighting or shading your zoas.

right, im starting to think that it is a factor. i've moved all my zoas to the bottom of the tank or in shade; we'll see how that works.

[kichimark]

i've always used instant ocean salt since i first started the tank, the only change i made was switching from normal instant ocean to instant ocean reef crystals. i change so much water because i get red algae on the sand and a light film of green on the glass, i figured it was nitrates so i've been changing more.




Red algae on sand bed? you mean cyanobacteria? Do you test for phosphates? Do you run any GFO? (granular ferric oxide). Sure water changes can help dilute the pollutants in your tank but you got to solve the problem still (i.e. overfeeding for example). GFO absorbs phosphates from the water. Nitrates do play a part in algae outbreaks but there are others things you have to consider.

[kichimark]

my LFS told me it didnt matter and to put all 8 in at the same time.





Usually LFS are there to just make profit. A good LFS will tell you the right advice. On purpose when going to a new store I will ask questions I already know the ansers to to guage their true knowledge.

T5's are powerful. You will not see it but the spectrum shifts when a bulb gets older and it losses PAR. If the lights are old and have low PAR then to suddenly be switched to all brand new lights the PAR will now be great and will light shock your corals. As mentioned earlier placing a few bulbs in at a time will acclimate your corals to a higher PAR and reduce stress.

For me when I replace my bulbs (6 t5ho sunpower) I replace 2 bulbs every two weeks until all 6 are replaced.

[organism]

i use tap water which i mix salt in a 50g bucket with the recommended dose of Seachem PRIME and sits for at least 2-3 days before use and is constantly stirred by a pump.

That's probably a big part of your problem right there, switch to ro/di or buy distilled water.

Also, how are you measuring your salinity? From your issues it seems like it's a bit high. If you're measuring with anything other than a refractometer calibrated with calibration fluid then you're not getting an accurate measurement.

I'd take your LFS's advice with a grain of salt from now on, if they knew you were using tap water and instead of telling you to get an ro/di they decided to sell you on something else then they probably don't have your best interests in mind.

[MAVX]

Red algae on sand bed? you mean cyanobacteria? Do you test for phosphates? Do you run any GFO? (granular ferric oxide). Sure water changes can help dilute the pollutants in your tank but you got to solve the problem still (i.e. overfeeding for example). GFO absorbs phosphates from the water. Nitrates do play a part in algae outbreaks but there are others things you have to consider.

you're speaking nonsense to me lol.

i will look into GFO.

Usually LFS are there to just make profit. A good LFS will tell you the right advice. On purpose when going to a new store I will ask questions I already know the ansers to to guage their true knowledge.

T5's are powerful. You will not see it but the spectrum shifts when a bulb gets older and it losses PAR. If the lights are old and have low PAR then to suddenly be switched to all brand new lights the PAR will now be great and will light shock your corals. As mentioned earlier placing a few bulbs in at a time will acclimate your corals to a higher PAR and reduce stress.

For me when I replace my bulbs (6 t5ho sunpower) I replace 2 bulbs every two weeks until all 6 are replaced.

i was told by a local reefer to do a few bulbs at a time, but the LFS told me to do it all at once.

That's probably a big part of your problem right there, switch to ro/di or buy distilled water.

Also, how are you measuring your salinity? From your issues it seems like it's a bit high. If you're measuring with anything other than a refractometer calibrated with calibration fluid then you're not getting an accurate measurement.

I'd take your LFS's advice with a grain of salt from now on, if they knew you were using tap water and instead of telling you to get an ro/di they decided to sell you on something else then they probably don't have your best interests in mind.

i'm using an instant ocean analog plastic thingy with the floating pointer, it is accurate, when i measure it and when the LFS measures it, they're the same. right, i may get water from someone with an ro/di unit or buy one and only take advise from this forum.

[organism]

i'm using an instant ocean analog plastic thingy with the floating pointer, it is accurate, when i measure it and when the LFS measures it, they're the same. right, i may get water from someone with an ro/di unit or buy one and only take advise from this forum.

Floating hydrometers are notoriously inaccurate unfortunately, unless your LFS is using a calibrated refractometer they could just be verifying the same incorrect measurement...

[MAVX]

Floating hydrometers are notoriously inaccurate unfortunately, unless your LFS is using a calibrated refractometer they could just be verifying the same incorrect measurement...

i do notice the tiny air bubbles that attach to the float, i introduce water as slow as possible to reduce this. my LFS does use a refractometer and usually calibrates it before checking my salinity.

[MAVX]

grabbed a ro/di unit and refractometer tonight.

polyps are in the same condition but I will mix some water and do a water change tmw.

[jimmy_beaner]

RO/DI water... also, I have polyps growing in the shadows of my PC lit BioCube... your lighting may be an issue. Put them in the shade and see if they like that more.

[MAVX]

RO/DI water... also, I have polyps growing in the shadows of my PC lit BioCube... your lighting may be an issue. Put them in the shade and see if they like that more.


I have them shaded now, doesn't look like that made a difference.

[SIR PATRICK]

Shading could take a few days to a couple weeks to show any improvment.

[MAVX]

i shaded them when i started this thread which was 2 weeks ago.

[Jarred1]

It takes time for things to change in a reef tank, are they doing any better? At night do you see anything on the polyps eating them? Do you have other corals in your tank and are they doing good? Do you add supplements to your tank and not measure to see what their levels are?

I wouldn't trust your local fish store, you should try and find another one around your area. They have given you a lot of incorrect information. When I am looking at a new fish store I look to see if they have a display tank that looks good with nice big colonies of corals. If they do that shows that someone in the store knows what they are doing. I also look to see if they have many dead fish in the tanks. I know that sometimes things happen and a fish will die but it is good to see that the employees will take the dead fish out of the tanks.

[MAVX]

It seems like they're doing a little better. I do add supplements but I have the water checked once a week to be sure.

I pulled one of my old powerheads to replace it with a newer Koralia unit and I found a bunch of very very tiny bugs crawling all over the bottom of the powerhead.

I took apart my old salt mixing drum to start over fresh with my ro/di water. I found a grayish coating of hard grainy stuff on my heater and sediment on the bottom of the drum which is probably whats killing my coral.

[MAVX]

this is what i'm talking about:

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll66/mk3turbo8v/IMG_20110320_173019.jpg

Also found these in my filter bag:

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll66/mk3turbo8v/IMG_20110320_212051.jpg

[Jarred1]

The stuff at the bottom of the drum is just salt. More flow can't hurt, just make sure the power head isn't blowing the polyps off of the rock. The problem with you saying "I do add supplements but I have the water checked once a week to be sure" is that if your the store that tests your water is the that told you to change all your bulbs at once I would have a hard time believing them. You shouldn't really be adding any supplements like Cal Alk or Mag to your tank unless you personally can check them or if you have a trusted store that can test for you. I have a LFS that I had check my water and they did all the test in less than 2 minutes and there is no way what he told me could be true because they are using the test that you add drops of stuff to the water and check what color it is. You can't trust everything that the employees say because they are there to just make money, so if one of your fish or coral die they don't care because they think you will just come back and get a replacement.

[Jarred1]

The red things are bristle worms and they are no harm, they eat left over food and keep your tank clean.

[MAVX]

The red things are bristle worms and they are no harm, they eat left over food and keep your tank clean.

Haha, after all of the talk on here, I know what you're saying. Do my own tests, figure out my own diagnosis and STICK TO THIS SITE rather than going to the LFS.

I hope you're right because I tossed them back in the tank.

Edit: when they do my test, I'm usually walking around the store checking out new stuff, I'll come back 10 or 20 minutes later and they give me the results so I'm not sure how long it takes them to perform the test.

[Jarred1]

If you don't believe me you can google bristle worms.

Here is something I just found:
http://www.reefs.org/hhfaq/worms/photoalbum_photo_view?b_start=5

Let me know if I am right or wrong about those red worms.

[MAVX]

If you don't believe me you can google bristle worms.

Here is something I just found:
http://www.reefs.org/hhfaq/worms/photoalbum_photo_view?b_start=5

Let me know if I am right or wrong about those red worms.

never said I didn't believe you. I took your advice and tossed them back in.

[MAVX]

would those little 5-6 leg starfish cause issues? I found one of them on my zoas tonight after dipping.

[Jarred1]

Those are brittle stars and they are fine to have in your tank, they also eat detritus and help keep the tank clean.

[MAVX]

cool, I have at least 15 of them.

when I first turn on my tank, I find them halfway or more up the tank glass, then they slowly drop to the sand.