sump/'fuge- should I?

[Moonstream]

I'm toying with the idea of adding some more volume to my currently sumpless 40br by adding a sump and refugium...

my plan is a 20H display refugium to be a macro algae farm and frag/extra coral tank with a mix of cheato, halimeda, gracilaria, caulerpa, maybe some ulva, some rock for the algae to anchor and critters to breed, a 3-4" sandbed, lit with my extra two bulb 24" nova extreme.

the sump would be a 10g, probably under the 20g's stand, and really would just be a place for the heater, some chemical media, maybe some extra rock, plus the return pump.

return would be a Mag7 split between the two, plus some extra powerheads in them if need be.

overflows would probably be DIY PVC ones, found a bunch of very simple designs that are cheap, fairly quiet, and though they are rather large, I can hide them using well-placed rock. my other option would be an eshopps U-tube overflow, but I think the PVC design seems pretty sound, plus its a lot cheaper and I get the satisfaction of making it myself.

I'd be keeping my current skimmer, it does a great job, and even though I'd probably be a pushing the recommended water volume (its printed as either 65 or 90, so I figure I can take about 10-15g off that and call the the 'real' limit).

my question is... should I? is it worth it? my hope is to leave this running once I go to college, and I want a stable system before I go, which extra system volume and lots of macro algae will definitely help with. plans are for soft and LPS coral, nothing fancy, and all easy, pretty bullet-proof fish.

[Reefbuoy]

Sounds well thought out. Would the water flow from the 40 to the 10 to the 20 and finally back to the display? I am thinking of doing something similar. How does the overflow work between the fuge and the display?

I have a Mag 7 and it was too much for my 1" overflow with lots micro bubbles and gurgling. Now have a Mag 5 that has a tee and a valve to dial it back some.

Sean

[Moonstream]

it would run like two separate displays on one sump; the 20 and 40 would overflow to the ten, and the mag7 would T off between the two.

[Reefbuoy]

I understand now. Might need to experiment to balance the flow between the 2 display tanks. If the returns are different heights or tubing is a different length or width, the flow rates with be different. A valve might be needed to balance it out. You also might want a valve off of the pump to dial it back if the overflow is not stable.

[Moonstream]

I might end up getting two different returns, since I'll be saving money on the overflows anyways. would probably make it a whole lot easier... in that case I'd be using two mag 5's, probably.

[Reefbuoy]

Two Mag5s are certainly doable in a 10 gallon tank.
My sump is a 10 gallon which is the largest tank that would fit under the stand. The sump has a EuroReef skimmer, some baffles for the bubbles, a Level-Loc top-off, a heater and a Mag5. With skimmer in there, the sump is pretty maxed-out as far as space is concerned. If there was no skimmer, there is enough room for 2 pumps. In the future, if you want to change to an in-sump skimmer, there wouldn’t be enough room for 2 pumps, imo.
Your original idea would still work if you made a kind of manifold to direct the water to where you want it to go. You would just need some PVC tees, valves, short lengths of PVC pipes, a union (for pump servicing), hose barbs, vinyl tubing and perhaps a bushing or 2. Let me know if need a sketch or something of what is needed.
If I had to pick between 2 pumps or some extra plumbing, I’d pick the extra plumbing. Less maintenance. Fewer sources of vibration or pumps potentially each other and creating noise. I have redone my plumbing a couple of times and each time I have learned how to make it better.
The macro algae choices sound very nice and would like to do the same when I build a new tank with fuge in the sump. I’ve seen an algae called Ochtodes that I would like to try. Current tank has 4 inch deep sand bed since 2003 with no issues really. Just need to agitate the surface once a month with the turkey baster to keep it working like it should.
Perhaps the skimmer would have an easier time with macro algae’s maybe somewhat offset by high flow rate of Mag7. Does your overflow design skim the water surface? When I recently took my sump out of service to replace an air bubble baffle, I notice how quickly I got an oil slick on the surface of the water.

[Bamm Bamm]

sounds good and will definately benefit your system just be sure you have enough room for waterin your sump that back siphons when you turn your returns off or in the event of a power outage

[Reefbuoy]

sounds good and will definately benefit your system just be sure you have enough room for waterin your sump that back siphons when you turn your returns off or in the event of a power outage

That’s an excellent point. The sump will need to have enough reserve to accept siphoned water from the 2 tanks. The 40 gallon would siphon 2.9 gallons per inch and the 20H would be 1.3 gallons per inch. Another way to say it is the sump will increase 4 times as faster than display siphons. Plus there is always some variation for different reasons.

[Bamm Bamm]

they have 15gallons which is the same footprint as a 10gallon just a bit higher that might be a good choice..Also I'd recomend putting a auto top off on the system..You'll be glad you did.. I have a dual float setup from www.autotopoff.com and its worked flawlessly for 8years now

[Reefbuoy]

they have 15gallons which is the same footprint as a 10gallon just a bit higher that might be a good choice..Also I'd recomend putting a auto top off on the system..You'll be glad you did.. I have a dual float setup from www.autotopoff.com and its worked flawlessly for 8years now

When I was building my sump, I bought a 15 gallon high for the very same reason. My stand only has access from the front. Once I put it in my stand with the skimmer in it, I decided that it was too tall to be able to work with my aquarium stand. When you're try do maintenance, you will need to be reach the bottom and be able to put both arms in to remove pumps, twist unions and do cleaning.

When you buy your fuge and stand and try different size sumps to see which size is best for your setup.

[Moonstream]

I'd forgotten about 15H's. I can only ever remember seeing one once in my life, but if I can find one, I'll definitely get it.

I would prefer to run the one mag 7- if anyone could provide a good sketch for plumbing that would be very helpful/appreciated!

[twon8]

I would position the 20g a bit higher than the display 40 br, and then that drains into the display;you would only need to have one return pump.

[Bamm Bamm]

Yeah i used to have a 15h but also havent seen one for sale for years... Sorry cant help with the sketch not that computer inclined=)lol

[Moonstream]

twon- i cant make my own stand, and now store-bought stand would place the 20 high enough for me to be able to drain it into the 40. plus, I'd need to run the 40 with a low water level to handle overflow. and I like the idea of having a sump to hide heaters, chemical media, etc.

[Reefbuoy]

I'd forgotten about 15H's. I can only ever remember seeing one once in my life, but if I can find one, I'll definitely get it.

I would prefer to run the one mag 7- if anyone could provide a good sketch for plumbing that would be very helpful/appreciated!

It's looks primitive, but you get the idea.

[Moonstream]

okay, looks simple enough. I've never used vinyl tubing- can I buy the stuff they sell at home depot, or should I order the "special tubing" from an on-lone specialty store like DFS?

in that design, does the T to sump serve a purpose?

also, I was thinking Im going to include two seperate returns to each tank, so that water enters from either side, to minimize the number of powerheads I need to create surface agitation (would like to only need to use one at the very bottom of the tank, blowing across the back of the rock). do you forsee any problems with that?

[Bamm Bamm]

the T to the sump is in case you have too much flow into the tank for your overflows you can throttle back the pump a little BUT since your also running it to your refugium if you have more flow in the tank than you need just increase the flow to refugium and save $5 in fittings.. I dont run a diverter like that just one to the fuge on my system here's a few pics of the 40g under my 90g.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/zk669/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_9166.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/zk669/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_4385.jpg

[Bamm Bamm]

I have a ball valve on the back of the tank below the returns to adjust the flow as well as the one where it's T'd off into the refugium to the right

[Moonstream]

I think I will include the overflow to the sump, just in case- its worth an extra 5 bux

[Reefbuoy]

okay, looks simple enough. I've never used vinyl tubing- can I buy the stuff they sell at home depot, or should I order the "special tubing" from an on-lone specialty store like DFS?

in that design, does the T to sump serve a purpose?

also, I was thinking Im going to include two seperate returns to each tank, so that water enters from either side, to minimize the number of powerheads I need to create surface agitation (would like to only need to use one at the very bottom of the tank, blowing across the back of the rock). do you forsee any problems with that?

Moonstream, some of better stocked aquarium stores sell black vinyl tubing (pond tubing) clear is ok but some algae may grow them - probably not a big deal. DFS does have it. It must be secured by a hose clamp to the prevent popping off or leaking. Stainless steel in dry locations and plastic in wet locations. You could use all PVC but it is more involved. The vinyl tubing usually curls up after its bought. Lay it out in the sun to soften or use a hair dryer.

The T to sump will be there to throttle back the flow if it is too much for the drains or causing micro-bubbles. Its there to fine tune the final flow rates. Best case is you wouldn't need it but most likely will need to back off some flow.

The return in my 40 gallon goes to a SCWD and and finally to 2 Directional U-Tubes on opposite sides of the tank. Provides a nice swaying flow every 30 seconds or so. Have a power head aimed at the glass for added flow.

You would also need some teflon tape for the threaded pipes - don't use too much (1-2 times around the thread - no more) and stop twisting if you hear a creak in the joint.

Adding a valve at the top would allow you take one tank out of service while doing maintenance. With 3 valves, one must always be full open or you could damage the pump.

I usually buy most of my parts from Lowes or Home Depot and order the rest.

[Bamm Bamm]

home depot has that black vinyl tubing I just picked some up yesterday when I ran a little mj1200 for the return on my frag tank I also used some of the larger diameter black vinyl for the return to the DT.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/zk669/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_8501.jpg

[Moonstream]

okay, so I'll probably end up buying the clear vinyl from HD, along with all the hard PVC parts I need, and all the extra things I'll get from DFS.

so I definitely do need to the T to the sump, then, if only for peace of mind.

I also realized that I have an extra 29g tank, as well as the extra 20H, that I could use. since a 10g isnt very large, and doesnt give me much space, I could use the 20H as the sump, and the 29g as the 'fuge. I could put the 20H under the 29g's stand, and the simmer on the 29. it would also allow me to keep my longnose hawk and yellowtailed damsel there and have the peaceful DT I've been wanting.

[Bamm Bamm]

sounds like a good plan

[Reefbuoy]

okay, so I'll probably end up buying the clear vinyl from HD, along with all the hard PVC parts I need, and all the extra things I'll get from DFS.

so I definitely do need to the T to the sump, then, if only for peace of mind.

I also realized that I have an extra 29g tank, as well as the extra 20H, that I could use. since a 10g isnt very large, and doesnt give me much space, I could use the 20H as the sump, and the 29g as the 'fuge. I could put the 20H under the 29g's stand, and the simmer on the 29. it would also allow me to keep my longnose hawk and yellowtailed damsel there and have the peaceful DT I've been wanting.

Sounds like an excellent plan. The 20H sump will have much more room to do maintenance/work in plus have an adequate reserve for the syphon.

Have you worked with PVC before? Its generally easy to work with but there are a couple of tricks to make it easier.

[Moonstream]

yeah, I've done a few systems with sumps, this wont be my first. getting excited :D plus, my fish are finally down to full hyposalinity (1.009) so ich treatment has officially STARTED!

[Reefbuoy]

yeah, I've done a few systems with sumps, this wont be my first. getting excited :D plus, my fish are finally down to full hyposalinity (1.009) so ich treatment has officially STARTED!

Moonstream, sorry to hear about the Ich outbreak in your tank. Hope you don't have any losses. I really need to setup a QT tank although I haven't had that problem. Recently added an new coral and noticed an aptasia on it and had a guilty feeling come over me.

The modifications you are making sound awesome and will definitely provide stability for your tank. My deep sand bed (in the display) has worked well for my tank for 8 years. My female Percula Clown has made herself a large cave under one of the rocks by moving the sand out. I'd rather not have her do that, so in my next tank, I'll move the DSB to a fuge.

I hope to build a 65 gallon reef tank with an in-sump fuge in the Fall after some work on the house is done.

Post some pics of your progress after fish get better!!!

[Bamm Bamm]

hopefully they'll pull through the ich occasionally my tangs get it I just feed heavy and thats it they pull out in a few days..