Looking for feedback on prop tank build

[Steveb]

I'm looking into converting part of our tandem garage into a propagation area. Help me figure out what to use for propagation tanks...

Pros/Cons?

96lx24wx12h
http://www.aquaticeco.com/images/subcategories/medium/FT120L_01_rgb.jpg
or
66lx36wx18h
http://www.aquaticeco.com/images/subcategories/medium/aft39_rgb.jpg
or
Maybe 48x24x12 glass (home made)

For lighting I was considering a couple of 150w MH on a light mover for the 8' or one 150MW w/light mover over the 4' or 5' tank. I also thought abut T5 but am concerned about qty of bulbs and frequency of replacement.

For water movement I was going to use a tub w/live rock/chaeto/skimmer with up to four returns.. depends on length of propagation vessel. I was also thinking about using a borneman surge device on each prop tank. Anyone use one successfully?


The plan will be to install two to start for SPS and then will do another two for LPS/softies later. On the fiberglass tanks I need to buy 4 at a time to get a discount + incremental cost on shipping is not much. If I build the tanks from glass I dont have shipping but worry about build quality :) Also probably would not do a surge device w/glass.

[Steveb]

Also looking for other ideas for prop tanks if you have them...

[Steveb]

No feedback?

Here is kinda what I was thinking about...

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/baringcs/CultureTankConfig1.jpg?t=1300085597

[nauticac4]

It looks pretty solid. What are the tubs made from?

The surge device is a great idea as well as light movers to minimize energy usage.

[MelloW33]

My LFS used to have those 8x2x1 runways and always have hair algae problems. I'm not sure if anyone else has ran into that. Your design looks pretty good.

[Steveb]

It looks pretty solid. What are the tubs made from?

The surge device is a great idea as well as light movers to minimize energy usage.

fiberglass - they are from aquatic eco systems

[TellyFish]

Layout looks good to me. Love the surges and light rail for efficiency. I say go all out and add in some solar tubes! :)

[Steveb]

Layout looks good to me. Love the surges and light rail for efficiency. I say go all out and add in some solar tubes! :)

I wish I could add some natural light! Unfortunately the tandem part of the garage is under the upstairs family room. We had talked about adding a sun porch off our breakfast area so that might be a route to look at but I don't think that will happen for a couple of years.

[slakker187]

looks good, but i would go with a siphon wavemaker instead of the borneman wave maker as it has NO moving parts to mess up. if you google siphon wave maker there is a schematic on how to build one and how it works. the only thing i would add to it is another overflow bulkhead at the top of the bucket down to the tank just in case something does go wrong. another thing i have found is 150w halides do not work that well IMO i would use 250w hqi halides, it isnt that much in the way of power usage and i strongly believe you will have way better results. also i recommend using 10k lights for the growout tanks, the corals won't look as good under the lights but the growth is WAY more noticable, and that is what you are going for, right. ive seen a couple of guys who grew the majority of their corals under 10k lights then a couple of weeks prior to selling them move them under 20k and let them color back up. one more thing is you might want to think about adding a calcium reactor to your system as dosing might become a little time consuming. it also helps keep things a little more stable and stability is the keystone to rapid growth.

i hope this helps, good luck!:D

[Steveb]

looks good, but i would go with a siphon wavemaker instead of the borneman wave maker as it has NO moving parts to mess up. if you google siphon wave maker there is a schematic on how to build one and how it works. the only thing i would add to it is another overflow bulkhead at the top of the bucket down to the tank just in case something does go wrong. another thing i have found is 150w halides do not work that well IMO i would use 250w hqi halides, it isnt that much in the way of power usage and i strongly believe you will have way better results. also i recommend using 10k lights for the growout tanks, the corals won't look as good under the lights but the growth is WAY more noticable, and that is what you are going for, right. ive seen a couple of guys who grew the majority of their corals under 10k lights then a couple of weeks prior to selling them move them under 20k and let them color back up. one more thing is you might want to think about adding a calcium reactor to your system as dosing might become a little time consuming. it also helps keep things a little more stable and stability is the keystone to rapid growth.

i hope this helps, good luck!:D

I was actually planning one tank at 6500k and one at 20k. But 10k may be a better option than 6500k. I will definitely check out the siphon wave maker.

I appreciate the feedback.

[muttley000]

Great plan! Keep the thread up with your progress please

[Steveb]

Will do. I signed the lease on a storage unit today to store all of the seasonal stuff that is in the tandem now. So hopefully will get it all moved tomorrow. Once that is done then I can enclose the tandem and open up the wall between the laundry room and the tandem. Can't believe my wife said ok to it....

[gp2]

I currently have 2 of the long tubs set up plumbed to a single sump. They are really nice. Solid and easy to work with and great dimensions for grow out. I have a 3 250 w MH over each. Really simple to get good flow. The returns are at one end the drains at the other, power heads for turbulence and increased flow.

[Steveb]

If you look at the schematic I am planning on using surge devices as part of the prop system. I have been trying to come up with a way to use an ATO - the problem is levels in the sump are bound go up/down as the tanks fill and then release. Anyone ever dealt with this and if so how?

[Steveb]

Maybe something along these lines
http://fluidswitch.com/pages/OpticalLiquidLevelSensorOS-900.htm

Optical Liquid Level Sensor - OS-950
OS-950 Miniature Plastic Optical Level Sensor
These solid-state optical level sensors have no moving parts. The built-in optical electronics provides a switched output level sensor that can sense the presence or absence of fluids to 125°C. The Polysulfone housing ensures this level sensor is compatible for use in a broad range of liquids, ideal for medical and industrial OEM level sensing needs. This miniature plastic optical level sensor is ideal for low level or point level monitoring for medical diagnostic equipment, sterilizers and washer, or dialysis equipment.

OS-950B
"ON" when Dry (dry sink output)
http://fluidswitch.com/pages/images/imgELS900Group.jpg
http://fluidswitch.com/pages/images/dimELS900.gif

And then set it so that when both surge buckets are full that should be when the sump has the lowest amount of water in it and if dry then ATO needs to activate?

[jake levi]

It is far more cost effective to build frag tanks out of plywood, any number of variations, make a trip to Tropicorium in Romulus MI, and see what he has done over 20 years with this as a sole income. The manufactured tanks are nice, colleges love them, but those trying to keep a black bottom line find more economical places to put their cash.

Dicks are wooden vats with black pond liners. Go and see what he has done. He has built a good business .

[Steveb]

Thanks Jake I am considering wood/EPDM pond liners as an option. Getting up to Michigan might be a difficult sale to the wife but who knows.

[gp2]

No offense meant Jake, but I'm not sure how much you would really save making your own tanks. If you were doing a bunch then definitely, but for 1 or 2 I am not so sure. I really like the strength of the fiberglass, and between building stands, hanging lights, installing circuits, etc, etc, etc... The last thing we would have wanted was another project which would have slowed cash flow. I guess if this was your sole income then the more diy the better, but we really have needed to balance this venture with our day jobs, families, etc. Now while saying that, aquatic ecosystems is a couple miles away so we didn't have to worry about shipping costs.

We just finished installing the third trough yesterday, so were super excited. On the ato, could you have a portion of the sump somehow not affected by the surges? Maybe with large baffles? Do you need an ato? It would sort of scare me to have one with that much $$$ in those troughs. It takes several days for our sump to start blowing bubbles, so as long as we stop by at least twice a week were ok. We have a HUGE sump, about 200 gallons, so I am sure that doesn't hurt with evaporation.

Something we found with lighting is that everything looks iike crap under the MH, so we put t5s on one trough. When we open to locals we will move everything to the t5 trough that we are trying to sell. (we only do foot traffic 2-3 days/month currently.)

[jake levi]

I would forget the ATO and put in an ATS, problem algae wouldnt be a problem,

that close to AE the troughs are cost effective, if you were adding shipping they wouldnt be, all those expenses you refer to are the same ones you incur with the troughs, all need stands, lighting, wiring etc.

Check out the ATS, lot of good variations, and save a LOT of problems.

[Steveb]

On the ato, could you have a portion of the sump somehow not affected by the surges? Maybe with large baffles? Do you need an ato? It would sort of scare me to have one with that much $$$ in those troughs. It takes several days for our sump to start blowing bubbles, so as long as we stop by at least twice a week were ok. We have a HUGE sump, about 200 gallons, so I am sure that doesn't hurt with evaporation.


No I don't have to have an ATO (but would like to have one..). I just need to find the time to play around with a old sump that has baffles to see how the water level is effected when that surge bucket is filling, full, releasing, empty. I have the same concern about flooding w/fresh water. I may end up nixing the whole surge bucket concept.


I also put out some requests for quotes for glass to build troughs. But I really don't want to go that route (I already don't have much time - a kid in Jr. High and a kid in Sr. High). The problem is being in the garage (well off of the laundry room) it has to have some aesthetics to keep the wife happy. If I go and throw a bunch of ugly (looks i'm gonna flood the house) stuff in there she is gonna balk. It has to look nice no matter what I end up choosing.

I wish I was a few miles from AE :D

Maybe I could convince the wife we need to swim with the Manatee's and then swing by and strap the troughs to top of my truck on the way back :lolspin:

[Steveb]

Freight and crating would run me $443 for four of the 96"x24"x12" fiberglass troughs or $205 for six of the 51"x31"x18" PE troughs. It's amazing how little I have been able to find locally. I would have thought being on the gulf coast and having so much industry there would be more plastic tank/trough options locally. Not the case at all.

[DVA]

Try looking at restaurant supply places you may find containers (generally food safe) large enough to do what you want.

David

[jake levi]

My 8'L by 30" W by 16" high for two cost me $55 in 1" ply, plus $14 more for 2" by 2" for internal frame, about $4 for screws, and two bulkheads at $14 ea, and a $4 tube of silicon.

I then spent $22 for a can of sealant. Thats $127 for two 8' long by 30"W by
16" high frag tanks. Or $65 ea. Not too shabby.

A 300 gal round rubbermaid stock tank my feed store sells for $180. Their 40 gals start at $29, and they have sizes up to 150 gal.

I really cant justify the cost of the plastic tanks compared to this. I need the money for lights etc. The 300 gal round is just great for one MH light above it for growing colonies or corraline algae on new live rock.

TSC also has the stock tanks, my feed store is a little better on price.

[Steveb]

Ok Jake you convinced me! :beer: Can you post or PM the type of sealant you used? Would you mind posting or PM'ing a pic?

I've been poopin out money like it grows on tree's for the reflectors, light movers, pumps, skimmers, calcium reactor... (and that's all used - except for the light movers) I could use a good deal!

[photobret]

How easy is it to plumb those fibreglass containers. I am thinking of one of those 66" long guys for a frag system.

Thanks, PB

[jake levi]

The sealant is a polyurethane, food safe one from our local hardware, $28 gallon, they didnt have the smaller size in, no pics but will be, the priciest part to me was the bulkheads, for their size, the sump is a rubbermaid stock tank from the feedstore, 75 gals, I think around $65 , it has a small tote , in it, 8 gallons, of live sand that the water comes into from the frag tank, then out , through bottom holes,there is a LOT of chaeto in it, and a submerged pump sitting in a fenced in area pumps the water back to the frag tank, pretty simple, no skimmer, there are also some frags in the tank with sprigs of plants started on them. Some free floating caulerpa there also . Water comes into the tank through a spray bar of pvc. Two MHs 4' apart. A very simple system. Water depth stays right at 15", BB, grows softies mostly .

[t.priscu]

Not sure if this helps with your surge vs sump water level question but...

I built a surge for my frag tank.
It's very ghetto looking but its in my back room so i don't care.
but basically im filling up a 30 gallon brute trash can with 2 inch pvc pipe as the plumbing for the surge. (siphon surge btw)

my sump is a 100 gallons which normally has about 70 gallons of water in it. By adding the surge device my sump drains down to having 40 gallons in it but all i have in the sump is cheato and return pump so it doesnt affect anything. Once the device surges the sump is filled back up to 70 gallons and does not over flow.

I dont know of an easy way though to run an auto top off with the sump levels flipping back and forth so much, it plays hell with your skimmer also if you plan to keep one in your sump. I added an extra tank to hold my skimmer where the water level is constant because of this.

That being said I wouldn't give up on the surge so quickly though if you can figure out a way to do it. Maybe its just in my head but i feel like my corals/anems look better and are more healthy with the surge going.

If you figure out a way to do the auto top off please post it, id be interested in this!

[Steveb]

I posted in the chemistry forum about using the conductivity of seawater w/a controller as a way to measure but Randy was concerned about the conductivity probe becoming gunked up.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2000804

[Tigé21v]

Why couldn't you mount either an ATO switch, (or even a float valve for that matter) at the lowest water level in the sump, right before the surge begins. At the end of the surge the ATO switch/ float valve will be submerged (off/closed), but as the bucket nears the next full fill, top off will be added as water evaporates.
The only problem I see with it is if you tried to use more than one surge bucket. I think you's need one bucket feeding both tanks.

[Metal Man 1221]

Well you could always test the system down the road, and calculate how much evaporation takes place in normal operation in a 24hr period, and then have a dosing pump add your daily top off. That way there are no worries about float valves/switches, when your sump level is constantly varying.

[Steveb]

Well you could always test the system down the road, and calculate how much evaporation takes place in normal operation in a 24hr period, and then have a dosing pump add your daily top off. That way there are no worries about float valves/switches, when your sump level is constantly varying.

Yep thought about that as well. I'm just paranoid something will change and I wont be paying attention - dang A.D.D.....

[Steveb]

The sealant is a polyurethane, food safe one from our local hardware, $28 gallon, they didnt have the smaller size in, no pics but will be, the priciest part to me was the bulkheads, for their size, the sump is a rubbermaid stock tank from the feedstore, 75 gals, I think around $65 , it has a small tote , in it, 8 gallons, of live sand that the water comes into from the frag tank, then out , through bottom holes,there is a LOT of chaeto in it, and a submerged pump sitting in a fenced in area pumps the water back to the frag tank, pretty simple, no skimmer, there are also some frags in the tank with sprigs of plants started on them. Some free floating caulerpa there also . Water comes into the tank through a spray bar of pvc. Two MHs 4' apart. A very simple system. Water depth stays right at 15", BB, grows softies mostly .

Hey Jake any longevity issues going this route that you know of?

[acrohead500ppm]

find a company that sell sheets of white plastic, build your own! that was what I was considering doing when I was planning a major basement operation, then I decided that the power usage vs potential profit margin was kinda pointless.

green house is the only way to go these days- long term.

[Steveb]

find a company that sell sheets of white plastic, build your own! that was what I was considering doing when I was planning a major basement operation, then I decided that the power usage vs potential profit margin was kinda pointless.

green house is the only way to go these days- long term.

Yes I considered that (plastic) as well.... No green houses where I live (Home owners association will not allow them and my property is not big enough anyway.) so I would end up having to buy or lease property. I'm looking at doing this 2 years in the interior space to gain knowledge and hopefully develop a client list and then I will look at expanding into something larger. But I saw an abandoned plant nursery for lease the other day driving around that I am going to check on....

[jake levi]

Hi Steve

No problems that I ever heard of, they arrived in the shops in good condition without any set backs.

As i have said before the most sucessful operation that I know of in this is Tropicorium in Romulus MI, and its all modified greenhouses with much insulation of them on the north sides.

[Steveb]

Well I finally got the room built out. I want to thank my wife's uncle Brent who spent part of his vacation helping me.

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/baringcs/fishroom/IMG_1576.jpg

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/baringcs/fishroom/IMG_1578.jpg

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/baringcs/fishroom/IMG_1579.jpg

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/baringcs/fishroom/IMG_1581.jpg

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/baringcs/fishroom/IMG_1585.jpg

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af278/baringcs/fishroom/IMG_1587.jpg

I still need to sand one more time, paint it, get electrical run but its a start.

[jake levi]

Hi Steve

Thats not the green wallboard? Its more moisture resistent, ifnot I'd put a good moisture blocking paint on it. What are the dimensions?

If there is any way at all to do it I'd advise making the trip to the Detroit/Romulous area and visiting Dick Perrins Tropicorium , I really believe its something that you'd want to work towards after reading all of your posts. You could also take a couple boxes of frags back probably better then what you'd pay at most frag swaps. You might get lucky and get an air fare special. Dicks is just about a half hour drive from Detroit metro.

[Steveb]

Yeah its not green wall board but I am going to paint w/epoxy floor, walls and ceiling. Also planning on installing 2 portable A/C units plus at least 1 vent fan running on a humidity controller. I almost went green wall board but since the rest of the walls where already normal sheet rock I didn't see the point. Dimensions are 11wx14dx10h. I agree with you I'm trying to get North.... :-)

[jake levi]

Hi Steve

I wish we had your cooling need ! But each to his own problems. Mine is how to heat it. Pros and cons for both.

Start looking for bargain fares to Detroit metro, either rent a car or take a cab, will cost about the same, cab might even be cheaper, set it up with them for a return trip, you could most likely make it all in one day and have your new stuff in tanks by bedtime. If you do it email me and I'll meet you at Detroit and take you over to Romulus.

You have a lot ofspace there for a good start, are you going to double or triple tier? The triple sure gives a lot more space but I prefer the double myself, in the current fish rm its a high single and then the floor space for vats/totes etc for rocks and curing rocks. I am going to put lights under the tanks to grow coraline on the rocks and boost growth on the rocks. I can probably get 8 stock tanks/totes under the tanks.

[Steveb]

Cool thanks Jake I will take you up on that!

I'm planning on double tier - If I did triple I know I would end up falling and busting my...

I like your idea about lighting underneath. I'm not doing rocks but I bet I could come up with something.

[jake levi]

In stock tanks and totes on the floor under the racks is the only place I have available, so will have probably four that way, a couple stock tanks outside to cure new ones. Then lights above them and a couple powerheads in each. Low tech for sure, but doable.

If the flights work right you could probably get 3-4 hours in at Tropicorium, I think you have to be back an hour before the flight leaves.

[Marcoss]

How's this coming along?