Why put lime in your ATO?

[Sk8r]

It's called 'dripping kalk', from the German word for lime. It's appropriate for anyone with clams or stony coral, ie, a tank that sucks up calcium faster than weekly water changes can supply it.

This is why stony coral keeping is a lot easier than people think it is---easy, as in, "very little work"...as in, "actually far less work than keeping a FOWLR."

First you need an ATO [automatic topoff]. Everyone does who doesn't plan to spend life tied to a tank putting teaspoons of water in. And if you want to keep stony coral or clams and run this kind of topoff, a high evaporation rate is a real asset.

Dripping kalk can completely satisfy a coral-packed tank of 50 gallons, no problem. It probably can do the same for a 75. When you get above 100, it's a question related to how packed you are.

But here's how. You have an ATO bucket. Arrange for one with a lid. I used to use a 7-gallon Oceanic salt bucket [free]; I now use a 32 gallon Rubbermaid Brute trashcan, with rolled-up paper towel for a gasket to make the lid fit snugly. You also need to set your ATO pump a bit off the bottom: set it on a rock, eg, to keep it from sucking up any residue. I use a Maxijet 1200, and since the kalk-drip goes into the fuge area of my sump, I used reducing connectors to reduce the hose size from 1/2 inch to airline diameter: a locline connector hoseclamped inside the end of the 1/2" hose does the job.

Now the nitty-gritty of how to run it. Understand two things. 1. kalk can only MAINTAIN the level of calcium you set. It cannot raise it. 2. it's pretty safe---if you have a topoff accident with it, your tank might turn white with kalk, and it will spike your ph a bit, but the real danger will remain the amount of freshwater you shot in via topoff. You can use a teaspoon or two of Schweppe's Bar Soda to lower the ph a tad, BUT since in such an incident the ph is going to fall back to safe level on its own PDQ, you risk overdoing it.

So: to set up: dose your tank the regular way, by hand, to the following readings: magnesium 1300; alk 8.3-9.3; calcium 420 or a little higher---in that order. Remember you can't add alk and calcium with 8 hours of each other.

Now: for a light coral load, you can try adding 1 tsp of kalk per gallon of reservoir water to your ATO reservoir, and lid it. Test your levels weekly. If they stay up, that's all you need. If the levels go down, correct your tank levels by hand dosing, and increase the kalk dose in the bucket to 2 teaspoons per gallon of ATO water, lid, and continue dosing.

2 teaspoons per gallon is the max you can do. Any additional will sink out of solution and lie on the bottom until you add more fresh water: this is why your pump is sitting on a rock. It doesn't go bad: in my 32, I dump in 2 pounds of kalk once every few months, and add ro/di as needed.

[If you are a 100 gallon borderline for being able to use kalk instead of going over to a calcium reactor, there is a way to hype this dose a tad by using white vinegar, but go to the chemistry forum to ask that one: I don't want a flock of word-of-mouth new users pouring white vinegar into their nano reefs!]

This system, with adequate light and a not so great skimmer, lets you raise really happy clams and large polyp stony coral with, as aforesaid, far less work than you think: no filters---these systems with megalots of lps coral don't like filters. Just live rock and sand, not even a filter sock. A fuge can help; but at 5.00 for 2 pounds of Mrs. Wages' Pickling Lime, this is also one of the most economical systems you can run. If you don't ever let the mg drop, you can run this for months without having to re-set the levels, only adding more ro/di as needed. So just test the mg now and again and you're golden.

This is my tank. All that hammer coral started as a three-head frag, ditto the frogspawn in the center. Any popped-heads have grown their own bases and become corals. And the new acan is developing new eyes hand over fist.
It's all kalk drip. I could never feed this lot enough by hand.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f269/Sk8r10/cleantank.jpg

[DownwardDawg]

Thanks a bunch for this. Very imformative. I've got a lot to learn still.

[Michael]

Incredible and Outstanding Information as Usual, the new to the hobby is great again, Thank goodness Sk8r is here, I miss waterkeeper, but we have a real aquarist Here again, thanks sk8r.

[Sk8r]

I miss Waterkeeper too. Brilliant man, who always deprecates how good he is.

[DownwardDawg]

Is this the same as Kalkwasser? I perform a 15% - 20% water change every 2 weeks. My calcium is at 420 and my alkalinity is at 12!!! Yep...12! This is with and API test kit. Why would my alkalinity be so high? I am showing some phosphates and I'm working to rid those right now. I show 0 nitrates. I only house soft corals right now, xenias and colt corals growing like weeds.

[Michael]

Don't underestimate your self my friend, I feel happy again here now your here regulary helping the newcommers, thank goodness as this forum was in trouble a few months ago, I feel like we have a new lease of life in this superb forum, long may it continue.


Mike

[Michael]

Is this the same as Kalkwasser? I perform a 15% - 20% water change every 2 weeks. My calcium is at 420 and my alkalinity is at 12!!! Yep...12! This is with and API test kit. Why would my alkalinity be so high? I am showing some phosphates and I'm working to rid those right now. I show 0 nitrates. I only house soft corals right now, xenias and colt corals growing like weeds.

12 is high but at the same time not a concern IMO, phosphates are a worry however, what is the level you have tested?

[Sk8r]

Yes: this is kalkwasser [Ger.: kalk=calcium/lime, wasser=water.]

If you get a startling reading re alk, first suspect the test kit, check the expiration date on the package, and get some water retested at your lfs. Alk tests go bad with age.

Phosphates respond to GFO (Phosban, and its ilk) and it really takes a reactor [abt 50.00] to make it work right. If you have any algae at all, you have some phosphate: not all will show up in the tests [if inside the algae].

Your calcium is bang on. Your alk tests high, but that will go down naturally, if it really is. The only thing left to know is your mg. level.

[DownwardDawg]

12 is high but at the same time not a concern IMO, phosphates are a worry however, what is the level you have tested?

Well, best guess by the color chart I think it is 1ppm. I know that's high, but I'm just learning more about reducing them. My nitrates were a huge problem before. I started out with horrible advice from the LFS 3 years ago. My tanks have "survived"..kinda. Fish live and super easy corals live. My coraline had all but disappeared. Once I bought the test kit, I finally got things turned a little more in my favor. I kicked the nitrates, but I'm fighting phosphates now. For some stupid reason, I don't remember why, I was using Prime in my top-off water and in my wtar changes. I have a RO/DI unit so I don't even know why I was using the Prime.

[DownwardDawg]

I need a mg test kit. I don't have one and have never tested for mg.

[rodster912000]

Mrs. Wages' Pickling Lime- this is what your useing to make you kalkwasser???

[spieszak]

Sk8r - If your not running an ATO, can this still be done?

[Sk8r]

re what I'm using, yes: just google it and you should find a source. My lfs carries it for me and numerous others. It's not as absolutely pure as the higher priced stuff, but heck, now and again (once a year) you can hose out your ATO reservoir. ;)

And re using it without an ATO: yes: just stir a teaspoon or two {depending on coral load} into your topoff bucket, and add with your regular topoff. A skin will form if you leave it standing: just scrape it off. As long as you keep doing that and as long as your mg stays up, you're good. If you have a nano, just use the proportions and you're good.

[spieszak]

And re using it without an ATO: yes: just stir a teaspoon or two {depending on coral load} into your topoff bucket, and add with your regular topoff.
Just to clarify, when you say stir.... It doesn't need to be overly circulated or mixed? Just stirring it at the time you top off will get it correctly into solution? The reason I ask is that with ATO your noting that your adding it in larger volumes and allowing it to dissolve on its own over time....

[Sk8r]

Yep, one whisk with a teaspoon and that's it. Kalk works the same as limestone in seawater: it dissolves what it can 'carry' and that's it. You could stir it 24/7 and it wouldn't dissolve any more than it did at first stir. Every time I add 30 gallons of ro/di to my big reservoir it kicks up all milky (and I temporarily cut off the topoff pump so the milkwhite slurry doesn't get into my tank) ---then it settles to mildly filmy water, just short of clear---never mind 2 lbs of undissolved kalk coating the bottom of my reservoir. At that point I cut on the pump, the ATO delivers the filmy water, the undissolved kalk just lies there (below the level of my pump intake) and waits for more ro/di. Which will come at the next refill.

As long as the mg level holds, your alk and cal will be whatever you 'set' them to be.

A store may try to sell you a kalk 'reactor' and a kalk 'stirrer', etc, for hundreds of dollars. You don't need them, unless you have very special circumstances of no-room for a reservoir. Kalk in your ATO reservoir is just exactly the same---for free; and stirring once dissolves all that will ever dissolve.

It's a limit of water's ability to 'carry' the stuff. It's natural, it's how the ocean does it, and that's why it is one of the safest dosing plans there is: you literally cannot overdose.

[spieszak]

Thanks for the follow up sk8r!

[Angel*Fish]

Sk8r - If your not running an ATO, can this still be done?

There's an inexpensive alternative to ATO systems. I use this. You manually adjust the drip - it takes some trial and error. I have an auto top of but I never set it up because I don't trust it -lol.
http://www.goreef.com/images/P/Kent_Marine_Aquadose_2_5_G.jpg

http://www.goreef.com/skin1/images/spacer.gifhttp://www.goreef.com/skin1/images/spacer.gif

[Sk8r]

lol. Angel, I've never had any problem with mine. With my head: occasionally forgets to plug it in, or occasionally has let the topoff hose flip out of the tank [that's good for a floor full]---but not with the unit! :lol:
Thanks for showing that pic: that'll help a lot of people.

[Tat2demon]

I didn't see it mentioned but for those new to sing kalk, ALWAYS use proper protection. Gloves, goggles, and anything else you can think of.

Kalk has a PH around 12 and can cause some pretty serious burns and severe damage to your eyes if it were to splash up.

[Angel*Fish]

lol. Angel, I've never had any problem with mine. With my head: occasionally forgets to plug it in, or occasionally has let the topoff hose flip out of the tank [that's good for a floor full]---but not with the unit! :lol:

I know, I know - it's an irrational fear. I can't help it. :lol:

[Sk8r]

Definitely do not let it billow up into your face: eyes won't like it and you should not inhale it. Just hold your breath and wear glasses if dumping in a full 2-lb package into a trash can.

[DownwardDawg]

Any input as to what the Prime may have done (if anything)? Would this hamper coral/coraline algae growth, or would that be due to having phosphates?

Should I have started a new thread for this question?

[DownwardDawg]

I miss Waterkeeper too. Brilliant man, who always deprecates how good he is.

Where is Waterkeeper? I've read many of his posts/articles so far.

[DownwardDawg]

There's an inexpensive alternative to ATO systems. I use this. You manually adjust the drip - it takes some trial and error. I have an auto top of but I never set it up because I don't trust it -lol.
http://www.goreef.com/images/P/Kent_Marine_Aquadose_2_5_G.jpg

http://www.goreef.com/skin1/images/spacer.gifhttp://www.goreef.com/skin1/images/spacer.gif

That's very cool and simple, but $50 dollars for a jug and some airline?!?! It seems like I could make something like that for pennies. What is that little "gadget" that's controlling flow? I'm an electrician, so I have some relays and transformers laying around the house. I may pick up a float switch and small pump and make my own. How do I keep snails off of the float switch?

[sunil6784]

So there's no measuring of kalk? Depending on how much RO top off water you use, you'll have to add more? For example, I go through about a gallon of day from my 3 gallon top off bucket. So I usually refill my bucket every 2-3 days with RO water. If I put enough kalk in my top off bucket for 30 gallons, I'll need to replenish it approximately every 10 days?

Thanks for the write up... really informative..

[Sk8r]

That's right---but you'll have some white slurry at the bottom, so be sure to put your pump higher than the white crud, (an intake hose up a few inches would work--) and then let it settle 8 hours before turning your ATO back on: it takes that long for the excess kalk particles to settle to the bottom. If you let it settle, it's only the 'right stuff' that will make it to the tank.

[thegrun]

So there's no measuring of kalk? Depending on how much RO top off water you use, you'll have to add more? For example, I go through about a gallon of day from my 3 gallon top off bucket. So I usually refill my bucket every 2-3 days with RO water. If I put enough kalk in my top off bucket for 30 gallons, I'll need to replenish it approximately every 10 days?

Thanks for the write up... really informative..

It works best to add the appropriate amount of kalk every time you add RO/DI water (1-1/2 to 2 teaspoons per gallon of water). Kalkwasser may slightly elevate your Ph (it does mine), if so add 3 tablespoons of white vinegar per gallon of top off water to your reservoir. The addition of vinegar also allows the water to absorb a little more lime.

[ludnix]

I've been using kalkwasser on my system since it started about 3 years ago. I have been very pleased with it's effects and ease of use. I take an extremely laid back approach to my tank, so it's nice to have something that takes care of the calcium and alkalinity it's own for the most part.

I keep a 5 gallon reservoir in my stand next to the sump. The ATO pumps from here directly into my sump. I keep the pump elevated a few inches from the bottom using an egg crate stand. I keep a good layer of kalk powder on the bottom of the reservoir and just add RO/DI water as needed. The Kalk will form a carbonate eventually because of it's exposure to air, but it's nothing I worry about. I just clean the reservoir out once in a while.

Here is the reservoir:
http://someawe.com/uploads/120gallon/topofftank.jpg

And here's my display.
http://www.saltwatermasters.com/gallery/u/ludnix/January-11//thumbs/fts-800x600.jpg (http://www.saltwatermasters.com/gallery/focus/v/ludnix/January-11/fts.jpg)

[Sk8r]

And don't start dosing max kalk right off unless you're drawing, say, a teaspoon or 2 daily in supplement with regular calcium dosing: no sense loading your system up with more than the corals are using. Start with 1 tsp per gallon, keep testing, and work up to the appropriate dose. If you start having to use vinegar, you're on the cusp of needing a calcium reactor, which is a big-tank piece of equipment. Some very-big-tanks use both kalk AND a calcium reactor, but you're not going to be there for quite a little while, starting out as a newbie. Kalk IS, however, the sanest, safest way to keep stony coral well-fed with calcium.

[DownwardDawg]

Ya'll have been a lot of help. Thanks!

[DownwardDawg]

I've been using kalkwasser on my system since it started about 3 years ago. I have been very pleased with it's effects and ease of use. I take an extremely laid back approach to my tank, so it's nice to have something that takes care of the calcium and alkalinity it's own for the most part.

I keep a 5 gallon reservoir in my stand next to the sump. The ATO pumps from here directly into my sump. I keep the pump elevated a few inches from the bottom using an egg crate stand. I keep a good layer of kalk powder on the bottom of the reservoir and just add RO/DI water as needed. The Kalk will form a carbonate eventually because of it's exposure to air, but it's nothing I worry about. I just clean the reservoir out once in a while.

Here is the reservoir:
http://someawe.com/uploads/120gallon/topofftank.jpg

And here's my display.
http://www.saltwatermasters.com/gallery/u/ludnix/January-11//thumbs/fts-800x600.jpg (http://www.saltwatermasters.com/gallery/focus/v/ludnix/January-11/fts.jpg)

Where did you get that reservoir? I like the space saving "width" of it.

[Lynnmw1208]

And don't start dosing max kalk right off unless you're drawing, say, a teaspoon or 2 daily in supplement with regular calcium dosing: no sense loading your system up with more than the corals are using. Start with 1 tsp per gallon, keep testing, and work up to the appropriate dose. If you start having to use vinegar, you're on the cusp of needing a calcium reactor, which is a big-tank piece of equipment. Some very-big-tanks use both kalk AND a calcium reactor, but you're not going to be there for quite a little while, starting out as a newbie. Kalk IS, however, the sanest, safest way to keep stony coral well-fed with calcium.

you mean 1 tsp per gallon of the ATO reservoir correct? I'm assuming so but just want to double check. I seriously may consider doing this! It just seems so easy! I already have a 10 gallon tank holding my RO/DI for top-off so what's adding a little something something to it? awesome, thanks for this post! should be a sticky!

[greech]

Thank Sk8r! This info as well as your PM has helped me a lot. The one question I have is regarding settling. I think I read that the lime can fall out of solution and settle on the bottom (why you prop the pump up off the bottom). If that is the case, do you need to account for the amount of residual lime in the bottom of the container when you add more RO/DI and lime to your reservoir?

[droth335]

This has worked well for me on my 210 (and is incredibly easy and low maintenance) but as the corals have grown my CA dropped to about 350 with straight kalk so for the past couple of months I have been adding white vinegar which has brought my CA back to about 400-420. My question is at what point do you need to switch to a CA reactor? I understand the demand of the tank but how does tank size factor into the need?

Here are some pics of my ATO system (the 20 gallon tank lasts one week between filling) and a FTS.

http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad73/droth335/algae%20pics/210%20tank%20pics/P1080980.jpg?t=1300115545

http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad73/droth335/DSC_0003.jpg?t=1300115215

[jcw]

Here's a little detail of that flow regulator from Kent. It basically pinches off the tube as you move the wheel up. Standard medical IV tubing...

http://www.hzproduct.com/iupload/615/64301/infusion-set-hx-iv-7-270.jpg

My corals have just started so I'm just dripping my kalk from a plastic gallon bottle. I just use this slightly upgraded IV flow regulator. Set it at 125cc/hr at night, 100cc/hr during the day. It works great and is cheap.

http://alladdinworldwidetrading.com/uploads/Disposable_IV_Flow_Regulator.jpg

[Sk8r]

Let me clarify: if your tank has stopped drawing, say, 1/2 tsp of Kent Turbo Calcium beads per week (for example), and has started drawing a whole teaspoon per week, you're on your way to needing this. If you reach the point where you are dosing daily, you definitely can use this.
When I talk about amount of kalkwasser (limewater in the ATO) I use, that is rated in quarts or gallons per day, because that is your topoff: my 54 gallon tank, for example, evaporates a gallon a day (a high evaporation rate is good in a tank)---and I was replacing that gallon daily with ro/di. Now I simply add lime to my ATO reservoir, so I am in effect throwing in 1 whole gallon of limewater (kalkwasser, in German) per day instead of just plain fresh water.

Understand, you don't need a stirrer or mixing pump for this: what dissolves in the first stir is all that will ever dissolve. The residue can lie harmlessly at the bottom of your ATO, once it settles, (and do not use the limewater UNTIL the reservoir has settled as much as it will!)---and once you add more ro/di water to that reservoir, the residue will mix into that water and become limewater in exactly the right strength: any little molecule of lime that can't bind itself to some water molecule has to fall to the bottom again and wait out the NEXT addition of ro/di. Think of it as dates to the big dance: if you don't get asked, [get a water molecule of your own] you have to wait for a new batch to get poured in.
Mrs. Wages' Pickling Lime has very little in it that is not lime---but after a number of months, like every half year, hosing out your topoff reservoir will remove anything that won't dissolve.
You can buy kalk by the jar, but it's way pricier. One of the beauties of using the pickling lime (which is actually packaged for making pickles, in canning) is that it is incredibly cheap, but real high quality all the same.

Understand, there IS lime [calcium] in your salt mix---and this is the big difference (besides price) between reef salt and fish-only salt. Reef salt has enough calcium to sustain corals and feed them a little. It also has some other traces corals need. SO you still need your water changes to keep those traces supplied: they're far too futzy (and expensive) to add any other way, as a home hobbyist. BUT once corals suck all the calcium out of the salt mix, they need more, and more. Not only that, your fish need it---not near as much, but some, just as you do, as a living creature. Calcium is part of the muscle power cycle (calcium/lactic acid) and total lack of calcium is serious stuff. Calcium is part of the skeleton. Bone can weaken. Muscle stops working, including the heart; snail shells dissolve little holes with the snails still living in them, poor things. So if you have stony coral, and it is enclosed in a glass box sucking up all available calcium---you cannot neglect to supplement it by some means. A living reef is incredibly hungry for this stuff, because, remember, the whole bony structure of the reef itself is built out of calcium, and it is incredibly efficient at sucking it up.

People fuss a lot about 'how do I feed my corals'---and if it's a stony, you primarily give it 2 things: strong light that powers its internal zooxanthellae (photosynthetic cells) to produce sugars for its energy, and calcium that powers its expansion and contraction, its ability to suck water, and enables it to divide and build skeleton. Any shrimp you also feed it is gravy: but these 2 things it has to have. And it will rob your fish and inverts to get this one.

[Genj]

sk8r,

I currently have a tunze osmolator in a DIY acrylic cube that hold about 4.5 gallons of RODI. Using Tropic Marin Pro, I am always low on my PH level and my alk as well. I do not use a Calc reactor, thus I add TLF PH buffer into the ATO tank. After reading this, I feel that I might want to switch to kalk in the ATO rather than the PH buffer?

My current parms are: Ca 440, mag 1350, temp 80, Alk is between 8 and 9.6 (over the course of 2 months measurement).

[Sk8r]

It comes in at a ph of 12, and of course falls off rapidly as it mixes and hits tank chemistry: use reducing connectors to get that entry hose down to airline tubing size to prevent a big dollop going in at once, and it should both raise the ph and keep your alk steady. Try it in a small 1 tsp dose in the ato reservoir and see how it works for you.

[Genj]

Ok, how about premixing it in the 5 gallon gas tank that I use when I make RODI, then dumping it into the ATO tank after shaking. The pump in there is the Tunze osmolator pump, which uses small tubing anyway.

[reefer_new]

Sk8r -
i plan on keeping soft corals so the demand on calcium should not be high in my tank

But can i still put lime in my ATO to buffer the PH??

also what happens if i keep doing lime.. but calcium is not used in my Tank

will it throw the whole system out of whack??
i.e. Alk Ca and PH

Thax
for ur help

[Sk8r]

<img src="/images/welcome.gif" width="500" height="62"><br><b><i><big><big>To Reef Central</b></i></big></big>
To use lime correctly you need to 'set' the alkalinity where you want it, ditto the calcium, and ditto the magnesium: those 3 are locked in a triangular relationship. Lime-addition provides the calcium that tends to deplete---but if buffer is depleting, having all 3 of those 'up' should also stabilize/hold the buffer situation, ergo the ph should behave better.
My advice would be to try just the triangle thing first. Then if it still falls, add just a teaspoon of lime per gallon---especially if you are using a cheaper fish-only salt, which does not contain as much calcium. For the record, I use Oceanic salt, which is high in calcium and magnesium: it costs more, but it saves me hassle.
The key is keeping a little log of your tests so you can see not only the state of your tank but the direction it is tending. A .001 a day movement downward indicates something going on, you see? So you know you can correct that.
It's why I advocate logbooks and weekly tests---even daily tests, when you're working on a situation. But always give a new dose about 8 hours to echo through the system before you test: then it will be more accurate.
HTH.

[reefer_new]

Thax Sk8r -
My Alk Cal are good Not sure about Mag
i will get a test for that

i wanted to dose kalk just to minimize the ph swings that i get

is Kalk water in my ATO good for that??

[Sk8r]

You need to test all 3, alk, cal, and mg, to decide what conditions exist in your tank: these 3 readings exist in linkage, and alk itself is related to ph. In point of fact, I don't even test ph in my tank, ---if my alk is ok, it's not going to be disastrous. So if you will test all 3 of these, and concentrate on the alk, you probably will fix your ph problem right there. If it will stay stable once the readings match those in my sig line [alk 8.3-9.3, etc] then you don't need to do anything else and a kalk dose will probably not help. Again, all 3 are related, and one affects the other. Get all 3 to the levels in my sig and your water quality including ph should be ok.

[philosophile]

How much is too much calcium in your system? last time I tried dosing kalk, my CA went up to something like 500. I never saw anything precipitate out of the water, (water never turned cloudy).

[Sk8r]

That's why you start with one tsp or even a half tsp [in a smaller system] to see what your tank will use up. When starting out, go smaller than you think you need, and test esp the alk and cal daily. [As long as the mg holds out, they won't fall, but they might start rising]. I'd try to hold it to 420, max 430---because if you od on calcium and it precipitates, you can have one heckuva pump-cleaning job. [I had a bad alk test once, and kept dumping it in, stupid me!---and yep, a nice little mess in the hoses and my pump: the good news is, white vinegar dissolves lime accretions pretty fast.] Just test, test, test, and set some numbers you don't want to go over. Don't over do either alk or cal: keep within 10 of the max recommended; and don't go over 1500 in mg, either---for one thing because mg is your stability, and that high a reading won't let anything else fall until it's used up, and mg depletes very, very slowly! Alk depletes fastest; cal depletes real fast only when corals are taking it, though it's faster to run out than mg is. It's not going to hurt you as a one time thing---again, it's very forgiving---but generally try to keep your parameters close to what I have in my sig; and if you really don't like your chemistry, you can always start doing water changes---that helps bring levels down. Usually, though, you just let them fall. Remember corals love stability. They don't 'trust' easily and can take a while to really expand---but once they do, they can really suck down an amazing amount. It's all relative, however: the corals in my 54 are fewer than, say, the TOTM, which may be a 200 gallon tank. So number of corals being fed does matter.

Just remember: little tank, little doses. Few corals, little doses.

[Essense]

How long does it take for the Kalk to mix before I should either add the solution to my ATO, or if mixing directly in ATO, before turning on my ATO pump?

Also if i'm reading correclty, can I add enough kalk for say 50 gallons, to a 5 gallong ATO resovoir and just replenish the kalk on the 11th time I fill up my ATO with RODI?

[kevantheman35]

You stated "you can't add calcium and alk within 8 hours of eachother" But when two part dosing such as b-ionic, don't you dose both the alk and calcium at about the same time?

[glenns]

My BRS order of Kalk arrived yesterday. My tank currently has one of each of the following: large, small and frag monti plates. An it has an acro frag. So I figured I should start out with the 1tsp/gallon, but I went a little lower and started with 4tsp/5gal.

Then I found this thread and now I'm a little concerned about the amount of lime water my ATO will add a time. So I haven't started dosing. I'm currently using around 1 gallon of top off per day. But my sump is like Melev's 20L conversion sump. It has a short baffle and egg crate separating the return pump from the refugium. It is probably a 15 x 12 inch chamber. The float switch is supposed to be sensitive to 1/8" change in water level. So my lifter pump is going to add more than a few drops at a time. Is this going to be a major problem?

[thegrun]

How long does it take for the Kalk to mix before I should either add the solution to my ATO, or if mixing directly in ATO, before turning on my ATO pump?

Also if i'm reading correclty, can I add enough kalk for say 50 gallons, to a 5 gallong ATO resovoir and just replenish the kalk on the 11th time I fill up my ATO with RODI?

I would wait 4 hours minimum before I turn the pump on if you mix it in the reservoir. I premix mine before I add it to the top-off container so I only wait an hour for the mix to settle. In theory you could over load the mix and just add water, but I'm not sure that it would absorb as much lime if you did it that way. I just muck out the reservoir once a year to get rid of the residue rather than try to get it to dissolve in pure water.

[thegrun]

My BRS order of Kalk arrived yesterday. My tank currently has one of each of the following: large, small and frag monti plates. An it has an acro frag. So I figured I should start out with the 1tsp/gallon, but I went a little lower and started with 4tsp/5gal.

Then I found this thread and now I'm a little concerned about the amount of lime water my ATO will add a time. So I haven't started dosing. I'm currently using around 1 gallon of top off per day. But my sump is like Melev's 20L conversion sump. It has a short baffle and egg crate separating the return pump from the refugium. It is probably a 15 x 12 inch chamber. The float switch is supposed to be sensitive to 1/8" change in water level. So my lifter pump is going to add more than a few drops at a time. Is this going to be a major problem?

I don't see that as a problem. My ATO adds about a 1/2 cup at a time in my 28 nano tank, if I did the math correctly you would be adding about 1 1/2 cups at a time which souldn't be an issue if your tank is 50 gallons or more. I use a very small pump so the flow is low into the sump. You wouldn't want to dump a full cup and a half into the sump in 10 seconds, it's better for it to be spread out over a minute or so.

[acrohead500ppm]

Dripping kalk can completely satisfy a coral-packed tank of 50 gallons, no problem. It probably can do the same for a 75. When you get above 100, it's a question related to how packed you are.



great informative thread BUT this statement is inaccurate.

a 50 gallon coral packed tank will exhaust the system's water calcium levels faster than a larger 75 or 100gal tank. Its all in correlation to mass of calcifying organisms vs water mass.

In larger systems the mass of water "buffers" the drop in calcium as corals use it up,
______ cubic centimeters mass of coral (/) _____gallons of system water = the calcium load on each gallon.

so actually a packed 50gallon tank will have a higher demand for calcium that may not be able to be kept up with using just settled kalkwassser (which is German for chalk water, not lime water BTW) via evaporation.

good write up though.

[acrohead500ppm]

sk8r,

I currently have a tunze osmolator in a DIY acrylic cube that hold about 4.5 gallons of RODI. Using Tropic Marin Pro, I am always low on my PH level and my alk as well. I do not use a Calc reactor, thus I add TLF PH buffer into the ATO tank. After reading this, I feel that I might want to switch to kalk in the ATO rather than the PH buffer?

My current parms are: Ca 440, mag 1350, temp 80, Alk is between 8 and 9.6 (over the course of 2 months measurement).

when are taking the pH reading? (tanks will be lowest when the lights are off)
this is one reason kalkwasser dosing at night is so great! it rasies pH !
The reason you want you pH to remain elevated when the tank is dark is because coral grow (calcify) predominately at night, and the process of calcification takes place more readily and rapidly at higher pH levels. This is one of the biggest reasons people like running their refugiums on a reverse photoperiod.

It is also why the calfo slurry method isn't as good as a consistent drip.

I think it would also be a wise to inform people of the dangers of using Kalkwasser on an automated system. You can easily crash your tank with it if you are not careful..... READ UP AND USE WITH CAUTION !!!!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

BUT this statement is inaccurate.


FWIW, both statements might have to be qualified (IMO). :D

Smaller tanks usually (but not always) have a higher surface area to volume ratio, so may have higher relative evaporation rates, allowing more limewater to be dosed per gallon of total tank water. :)

In general, I do not know if larger tanks have a larger volume of water per amount of demand for calcifying organisms, so the "buffering" idea isn't clear, IMO. In many cases they may, however, since the bottom surface area rises more slowly than does the volume.

Also, even if a larger volume to calcification ratio did "buffer" the water so that drops in alkalinity and calcium were smaller, if you wanted to maintain the values, then you are going to have to add something regardless of the buffering effect.

For example:

Take 1000 gallon (3780 L) and 50 gallon (189 L) tanks as an extreme example. We can make any of several assumptions:

1,. Exactly the same demand from exactly the same creatures.

Assume that each has creatures that calcify to use up 2 g of calcium and 0.1 equivalent of alkalinity.

That will drop the big tank by 2g/3780L = 0.5 mg/L = ppm calcium and 0.1/3780 = 0.026 meq/L (0.07 dKH)

That will drop the little tank by 2g/189L = 10.6 mg/L = ppm calcium and 0.1/189 = 0.52 meq/L (1.5dKH)

That difference clearly shows the buffering effect. But it also obviously takes the same amount of limewater to boost both back to the starting point. Specifically, it takes about 2.5 liters.

The smaller tank may not evaporate that much, but the big one certainly will.

HOWEVER, bigger tanks normally have bigger demand than small ones.

2. Assume the bigger tank has more demand, exactly in proportion to its volume.

Assume that the big tank has creatures that calcify to use up 2 g of calcium and 0.1 equivalent of alkalinity. That will drop the big tank by 2g/3780L = 0.5 mg/L = ppm calcium and 0.1/3780 = 0.026 meq/L (0.07 dKH)

Assume that the little tank has creatures that calcify exactly 1/20 as much to use up 0.1 g of calcium and 0.005 equivalent of alkalinity. That will drop the little tank by 0.1g/189L = 0.5 mg/L = ppm calcium and 0.005/189 = 0.026 meq/L (0.07 dKH).

Now the drop is exactly the same for each, but the amount of limewater needed is very different. Specifically, it takes about 2.5 liters for the big tank but only 125 mL for the little tank.

[acrohead500ppm]

Im not going to argue with a reef chemist , but mass of calcifying organisms vs mass of system water would reflect the depletion rate per gallon

two systems.. one 50gal and a 100g with the same mass of calcifying organisms, which is going to see a higher calcium/alk depletion (per gallon) in a 24 hr period.......obviously the smaller system......point made??? That (depending on evap rate) the 50gal would be the first I would consider using alt methods of dosing calcium/alk not the 100gal system.

[glenns]

I don't see that as a problem. My ATO adds about a 1/2 cup at a time in my 28 nano tank, if I did the math correctly you would be adding about 1 1/2 cups at a time which souldn't be an issue if your tank is 50 gallons or more. I use a very small pump so the flow is low into the sump. You wouldn't want to dump a full cup and a half into the sump in 10 seconds, it's better for it to be spread out over a minute or so.

Thanks. I'm using a 90 gal DT with 20L sump. But, the system volume is probably 100 - 105 gallons once you consider water displacement and overflow space in the sump during power outages. The pump is the Aqua lifter, so its max is 3.5 gal /hr. If I need to restrict it, I could out a needle valve on the output line.

[glenns]

Yikes, Alk has shot up from 7.8 to 10.2dkh. This after dosing 4tsp Kalk per 5gal of RO. Only 2.5gal's of limewater has been used. And I changed 10gal of water before I decided to run the test. Water has been sitting for a week.

So I've added 2.5 gal of RO to the ATO reservoir to dilute the limewater.

Salinity 35ppt
PH 8.2
ALK 10.2
Ca 430
Mg NA

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, many folks use and need less than saturated limewater is demand is not high. :)

[brannock_16]

I am thinking about starting a Kalk drip and setting up an ato. I would be using a JBJ ATO with a aqualifter pump in a 5 Gallon Instant Ocean bucket for my top off. I wanted to dose Kalk in the ato water and had a question regarding the insertion into my sump.

Would it be okay to simply use 1/2 inch or 1 inch flexible plastic hosing running from the ATO bucket to my sump with the Kalkwasser? This would essentially just be dumping Kalkwasser into my sump whenever the ATO kicked in.

Or would it be more beneficial to set up the top off water as a drip? If this would be more beneficial, how would I go about doing this?

I am sorry if this sounds confusing, but I just want to get it right the first time and I have never set up an ATO and am a bit confused myself.

[Sk8r]

I don't literally 'drip'. I have the 1/2 inch line from a Majijet reduced to a 1/4 inch---I took one of the connectors for a 1/4 locline and stuck it inside the half inch tubing, then hose-clamped it in place. WOrks like a charm.

I have a fierce evap rate in my 54 gallon very packed lps reef: my sump is 30 gallons, and it's a downstairs sump, so the water comes barrielling into that tank pretty fast; ditto the skimmer is poised above the sump on lighting grid, and shoots water into it, so yes, my evap rate is pretty high.

My statement s by no means inclusive of all 50-75 g tanks, because every tank is individual as a snowflake, by reason of its locale, climate, equipment, etc, and whether you have central air etc. But an ATO limewater rig will sure give you a leg up on supplementation. The deal is, if you do this right, you can have supplementation for free---until you do reach the point where you need to bite the bullet and get a calcium reactor. I don't think I ever will, because of my set-up, but some might have to, who have something faster growing than euphyllia.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Would it be okay to simply use 1/2 inch or 1 inch flexible plastic hosing running from the ATO bucket to my sump with the Kalkwasser? This would essentially just be dumping Kalkwasser into my sump whenever the ATO kicked in.

Depends on how much you add at once. Adding 1.25% of the water volume at once will instantly boost the pH by about 0.7 pH units, which is clearly too much.

Half that is marginal, IMO.

A quarter that is probably OK

I add mine very slowly, and generally recommend that.

[srusso]

I have a gravity fed ATO. Simple float valve in the sump (the KENT brand model that is black and most people are familiar with...) Seems to be far more accurate when it comes to topping off, then any float switch/ pump ATO... That given can I use kalk still? The gravity feed allows 1 inch of water to remain at the bottom of the storage container. And I have no chance of dumping loads of fresh water into the tank so long as I don't let it ever completely empty. As a gravity fed ATO only adds a few drops of water at a time... Can I still use kalk?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Seems to be far more accurate when it comes to topping off, then any float switch/ pump ATO..

What are you comparing to? My float switch (Omega LV-1201) is very precise, with a 1/4" activation.

That said, precision is not my primary concern with a float valve. The concerns are addition rate and whether solids inside of it, which does happen over time using limewater, could possibly allow it to stick open.

[Sport507]

I have been using baking soda with good results. Can anyone thing of a reason that I should use it?

I could just a easy to buy canning lime.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Baking soda is a fine alkalinity only supplement.

Limewater adds calcium and alkalinity in the same ratio they are used in the aquarium, and also boosts pH.

Both have uses. :)

[007Bond]

I read the thread. Question, are you adding lime to your ATO of new salt mixed water, or to new RO/DO water only? Thanks

[RocketEngineer]

I read the thread. Question, are you adding lime to your ATO of new salt mixed water, or to new RO/DO water only? Thanks

The water for top off should be RO/DI only. If you add any salt to it the amount of salt in the tank will be increasing while the water volume stays the same. An ATO adds water as the fresh water evaporates from the tank and by adding lime to the ATO water, the tank gets an addition of calcium and alkalinity at the same time. Only when you are doing a water change should you be adding salt water to the tank.

HTH,
RocketEngineer

[Lynnmw1208]

I don't literally 'drip'. I have the 1/2 inch line from a Majijet reduced to a 1/4 inch---I took one of the connectors for a 1/4 locline and stuck it inside the half inch tubing, then hose-clamped it in place. WOrks like a charm.

I have a fierce evap rate in my 54 gallon very packed lps reef: my sump is 30 gallons, and it's a downstairs sump, so the water comes barrielling into that tank pretty fast; ditto the skimmer is poised above the sump on lighting grid, and shoots water into it, so yes, my evap rate is pretty high.

My statement s by no means inclusive of all 50-75 g tanks, because every tank is individual as a snowflake, by reason of its locale, climate, equipment, etc, and whether you have central air etc. But an ATO limewater rig will sure give you a leg up on supplementation. The deal is, if you do this right, you can have supplementation for free---until you do reach the point where you need to bite the bullet and get a calcium reactor. I don't think I ever will, because of my set-up, but some might have to, who have something faster growing than euphyllia.

do you have a picture of how you reduced this sk8r? I would love to see it because I have the exact same set up as you do with the maxijet 1200. would the JBJ time go off? I am always afraid that if the water rate is too slow that it will trigger the safety timer and shut off the JBJ. As of right now my pump probably pumps RO/DI into the sump for around 5-7 seconds and shuts off. would that be ok with kalkwasser or should I reduce like you did?

[srusso]

Seems to be far more accurate when it comes to topping off, then any float switch/ pump ATO..

What are you comparing to? My float switch (Omega LV-1201) is very precise, with a 1/4" activation.

That said, precision is not my primary concern with a float valve. The concerns are addition rate and whether solids inside of it, which does happen over time using limewater, could possibly allow it to stick open.

I thought the same, that it would get clogged or stick open. So far so good... I thought about it a little, so long as I clean it once in a while. I think it should be ok.

[007Bond]

RE. I keep the water in my reservoir at 1.023 same as my main tank so as it needs water the ATO replaces it with the same sg. Am I doing this wrong? Thanks for any input.

[bamf25]

RE. I keep the water in my reservoir at 1.023 same as my main tank so as it needs water the ATO replaces it with the same sg. Am I doing this wrong? Thanks for any input.

Your ATO should be fresh water only!!! As the tank water evaporates the salt is left in the tank, ie the salinity goes up. If your are replacing this with more salt water your tank salinity will gradually rise.

As for limewater, how have people done with periodic two part dosing with kalk, or even kalk with automated two part dosing done in tanks 100g +?

[Sk8r]

How to reduce to 1/4inch---actually my lfs guy did the original, so credit to him, but you get a hose clamp---metal's fine, since it's in ro/di, not salt water---and a 1/4 inch locline 2 way connector, sort of like a hose barb for locline in function, meant to stick two loclines together. You stick the connector into the end of the half-inch hose, tighten the hose clamp about it so it won't pop out, and shove a piece of locline onto the exposed side of the connector: reduces it nicely for a Maxijet 1200 to push water into a regular-height tank, and do it very gradually. I've been waiting 2 years for that line to clog: I've worn out 3 impellers, but that line is still flowing nicely.
Kalk's supplying this nicely (54g) and popped heads are growing new bases quite nicely, so they're getting plenty of what they need. I fragged this thing out of one specimen I grew from 3 heads, and I've already taken 2 buckets of it to the lfs.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f269/Sk8r10/cleantank.jpg

[Lynnmw1208]

How to reduce to 1/4inch---actually my lfs guy did the original, so credit to him, but you get a hose clamp---metal's fine, since it's in ro/di, not salt water---and a 1/4 inch locline 2 way connector, sort of like a hose barb for locline in function, meant to stick two loclines together. You stick the connector into the end of the half-inch hose, tighten the hose clamp about it so it won't pop out, and shove a piece of locline onto the exposed side of the connector: reduces it nicely for a Maxijet 1200 to push water into a regular-height tank, and do it very gradually. I've been waiting 2 years for that line to clog: I've worn out 3 impellers, but that line is still flowing nicely.
Kalk's supplying this nicely (54g) and popped heads are growing new bases quite nicely, so they're getting plenty of what they need. I fragged this thing out of one specimen I grew from 3 heads, and I've already taken 2 buckets of it to the lfs.


can you show me what piece of locline you're talking about? I'm not sure which piece it is. Thanks!

[Michael]

sk8r,

I currently have a tunze osmolator in a DIY acrylic cube that hold about 4.5 gallons of RODI. Using Tropic Marin Pro, I am always low on my PH level and my alk as well. I do not use a Calc reactor, thus I add TLF PH buffer into the ATO tank. After reading this, I feel that I might want to switch to kalk in the ATO rather than the PH buffer?

My current parms are: Ca 440, mag 1350, temp 80, Alk is between 8 and 9.6 (over the course of 2 months measurement).

kalkwasser will destroy your pump, I to have the tunze (fantastic by the way) I use a second resevoir when dosing, the tunze is in a frehwater resevoir and it pushes ro-di water into a second sealed resevoir which is saturated with kalk in ro-di, this way the tank gets the lime but the pump only sits in pure water.

[harber79]

Can you add baking soda to the lime water to help increase alk or does this need to be dosed separately?

[lordofthereef]

Two quick questions. Thought this was an appropriate place. Was planning on dripping limewater in my 29g using a tunze osmolator. Anyone see anything wrong with that? I was just planning on making a little stand for the pump out of eggcrate, this way it isn't on the bottom of the reservoir. Are people using anything to stir the water at all or do you just mix it once, let it settle, and let the ATO do its thing until it is time to fill the reservoir again?

[lordofthereef]

kalkwasser will destroy your pump, I to have the tunze (fantastic by the way) I use a second resevoir when dosing, the tunze is in a frehwater resevoir and it pushes ro-di water into a second sealed resevoir which is saturated with kalk in ro-di, this way the tank gets the lime but the pump only sits in pure water.

Guess I should have read this first, although I am not sure I understand how you have this set up. So you have the tunze in the straight RO water pumping via the tunze into a kalk saturated solution? How does the water saturated with kalk make it into the tank? Maybe some pics, if you could?

[Floyd R Turbo]

Started this thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19161607#post19161607 (info on my system) then got pointed to this thread and the RK article http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php.

I need to raise my pH from about 8.0-8.1 to 8.4-8.5 and keep it there to help with a battle against dinos. Tank is 120g mixed reef, Alk=8.5-9.0, Cal=420, Mag=1350 (all BRS 2 part) and I top off RO/DI about usually 1.5g/day.

The RK article mentioned that adding a quantity of 0.25% of your tank volume of saturated solution will raise pH 0.1 to 0.2. That's about what I want to do, but then I want to maintain it there. I currently plan on using a BRS 50ml/min doser on an digital timer so I can dose for 1 minute 5 times an hour. Will I have to use a saturated solution to keep the pH up, or should I start lower (1 tsp/gal, etc)?

I want to make sure I understand the "saturated solution" thing. If I've got this right, you can add a bunch (let's say a 100 tsp) of Mrs. Wages to a 5g bucket of RO/DI and let it settle, and that will be saturated and stay saturated. Then when it runs low, you just dump another 5g into the bucket, let is settle, and that will be saturated. This keeps going until you have gone through about 50g of water (100 tsp/50g=2 tsp/gal) at which point you would need to add more lime.

Do I understand this correctly? Not that I would necessarily do this, I just want to understand the mechanism.

[Sk8r]

That's about right. I use a 32 gallon trashcan and just dump in a couple of pounds of kalk every few months. I add fresh water far more often, of course.
Re the lifespan of pumps, it is abrasive and it does wear out pumps/impellers. I use fairly inexpensive Maxijet 1200's, which deliver a strong enough stream to lift a little water. You do not want a Niagara of kalkwasser coming into your tank. Use the 1/2 inch hose outlet of a Maxijet, insert a locline connector, hose-clamp it into stability, (metal is ok in a freshwater barrel, which kalk is) and let that tiny 1/4 inch line deliver your kalk over several minutes, v. a strong dollop of kalk all at once.

[stingythingy45]

I use an aqualifter,the pump last about a year before it gives up the ghost.
A 5 lb. BRS container of kalk has lasted me well over a year.One thing I'm going to do more often is clean out my 20 gallon rubbemaid top of barrel more often.
I had a plug up in the hose and when I unplugged it didn't realize how low my sump had gone down(75 gallon stock tank).Ended up with a calcium of 550 ppm and a DKH of 13.
Lost a couple SPS that were right in the return flow.

[DarrinSimon]

There's an inexpensive alternative to ATO systems. I use this. You manually adjust the drip - it takes some trial and error. I have an auto top of but I never set it up because I don't trust it -lol.
http://www.goreef.com/images/P/Kent_Marine_Aquadose_2_5_G.jpg

http://www.goreef.com/skin1/images/spacer.gifhttp://www.goreef.com/skin1/images/spacer.gif

Heh, thats where I got the idea from. Got a 1 gallon tupperware jug, drilled a hole near the bottom about an inch or so up from the bottom. Forced airline tubing into hole and use one of those crimper thingies like you see in hospitals when people are hooked up to an IV.
! teaspoon of kalk per gallon and I drip twice a day, morning and evening. I am an MTO (manual top off!). Don't have corals, yet, but corraline is starting to come back strong. I raised my calcium from 360 to 400 ish by doing this so I have to drip plain RO water every third or fourth gallon or so I don't get it too high. PH is still at 7.8 in the AM, will have to check it later in the evening when the lights have been on a while.