View Full Version : Aqua Illumination using Apex or Profilux Controllers
snorvich
03/14/2011, 12:55 PM
I am upgrading my tanks to LED lighting and have decided to go with Aqua Illumination. Since their controller is somewhat rudimentary, I am looking at the Profilux or Apex controllers which will be used primarily for this purpose with possibly Tunze control as well.
So, I have questions. My desired requirements are:
1. Ability to fully utilize AI lights, ideally to control W, B, RB channels separately
2. Ability to wirelessly connect to my in home Wireless network
3. Software which is easy to understand without "programming"; select options rather than program the options
4. Reliable with good customer service
So any ideas/suggestions/observations would be welcome.
:p
Shard
03/16/2011, 11:52 PM
I use the Apex for controlling my AI units and recommend it over the Profilux. The Apex is competitively priced, where as the Profilux is much more expensive, and the expansion cost is enormous. Two comparative examples....
8 outlet expansion module for the Apex? - $150
6 outlet expansion module for Profilux (old)? - $270
6 outlet PAB expansion module for Profilux (new)? - $325
Base unit systems?
Apex w/ pH probe - $490
Similar Profilux III package - $900
The Profilux package listed above, while almost twice the price, actually comes with less than the Apex package, because it lacks an ORP port, and has only 6 outlets instead of 8.
While I think the Profilux is a great piece of hardware, the reality is it that it will cost twice as much, if not even more, to get the same or similar capabilities as you can get with the Apex.
Now for some detail to your specific questions...
1.) Currently the Apex module for AI units only controls W and B channels. In the case of a Super Blue module I think it would control B+RB together. I expect an update within a few weeks to give three channel control if it is not available already.
I only have V1 modules, so I have no need for 3 channel yet. I do feel the setup is quite capable. I have ramp up and ramp down set for each based on the sunrise/sunset time table, so it varies, and moon lighting cycles running based on a 28 day lunar cycle. I also have cloud cover programs running a few days of the week, as well as a storm mode.
2.) The Apex does not have built in wireless, but a cheap game adapter can be used on the ethernet port to give you a wireless bridge/link to your network. Many people use this option. The Profilux has a wireless module, but it is a $350 add-on module. A $35 game adaptor is much more economical, but to each his own on that one.
3.) The Apex does use a scripting language for programming, but it also has easy fill in the blank setup forms via the web interface and configuration 'wizards' via the head unit. You can setup basic things like lights, pumps, etc this way. The scripting language is really simple to learn for fine tuning. Something like "If Time 12:00 to 20:00 Then ON" would turn lights on from noon to 8 on a specific outlet. I do not know how the Profilux setup works, someone else would have to chime in on that one.
4.) I have no experience with Profilux customer service, but I think Aqua Digital Inc. in Ottawa handles it for the US. I have spoken with the guy there before and he seems like he takes care of his customers. As for Neptune customer service with the Apex, it is top notch. I have heard of Curt helping people get setup on Sunday evening for 4+ hours. It is like the man works 24/7. I have had some repairs done, and turn around time is great, the warranty coverage is excellent, and the Neptune is very helpful if you call with questions.
I think both options are good products, but the price difference is quite large. Like I said, I have no first hand experience with the Profilux, I just feel the Apex does about the same stuff for much less money. If you do end up getting a Profilux though, I would be interested in your thoughts on it once setup.
Hope this helps,
Landon
jmchzn123
03/17/2011, 01:20 AM
What he said. I will say Neptune has been great and the programming although for this Reefer not intuitive with some help lights are working great. I haven't figured out Lunar cycle. I do have moon rise and set but not sure I captured the actual cycle which I would like to do.
watsonj
03/17/2011, 04:30 AM
The Apex will not do the three channel control you desire of your LEDS. I am toying with the idea of changing to the Profilux as I have trouble lately with the Apex crashing. For me the extra money would be worth it for relability and enhanced functionality. I am just not sure the Profilux is really any better than the Apex.
Neptune is supposed to have a patch for the 3 channel control of the LED's in the future but the release date is yet to be announced. The Apex web service for me is unreliable as it stops working quite often and the unit has to be rebooted for it to start up again.
snorvich
03/17/2011, 05:16 AM
Thanks all. Anyone else?
killarsox
03/17/2011, 07:32 AM
Neptunes customer service is great. I was on the phone with them for about an hour getting everything setup, they were very helpful and patient the whole time. I would highly recommend the Apex controller, and doing business with Neptune
Makenna
03/17/2011, 08:24 AM
I havee used Profilux for a few years and here are my thoughts.
1. To start, you don't NEED the P3 for what you want to do. I have a P2ex and it can do all I need and more, including controlling the AI's as well as Tunzes. THe base price for the P2 is $499, I believe the same price for the other comparative controllers.
The options that the P3 can provide are really beyond the needs of even an advanced aquariust. It has mainly to do with ease of programming and other options beyond the basics. THe good news is you can always upgrade to it int he future if need be.
I really enjoy the upgradability of it on the hardware front as well as the companies commitment to constant attention to the software/firmware.
I have never had any issues with CS and they have their own forum in addition to the one here on RC which is active.
Although Programmable logic is available, I have never had a need to use it. There is a bit of a learning curve with the software, but it is not bad once you get the general processes down.
gasman059
03/17/2011, 09:38 AM
profilux for me
snorvich
03/17/2011, 09:54 AM
profilux for me
Since I know what your gorgeous tank looks like, are you using LED to light it now? Why Profilux? Thanks!
Shard
03/17/2011, 10:06 AM
Just another thought....
The Vertex Cerebra is supposed to be out in June. It is an Android based controller with a small touchscreen interface. Think along the lines of an Ipod touch, with a 'app' screen and such. It should be fairly easy to use, and rather full featured given the information available. The company statements on pricing says it should be competitive with the more popular controllers out there like the Apex. Depending on how it looks when more becomes available, I may be switching.
To add to a little from above....
THe base price for the P2 is $499, I believe the same price for the other comparative controllers.
The base price is $599, but after some searching I now see you found it for sale on GHL-direct for the $499.
I really would not call the package equal to the base Apex. It comes with a temp port, 1 pH port, 6 outlets, 2 level sensors (switch inputs), four 0-10v control lines, and a serial port for linking directly to a computer. The base Apex comes with a temp port, 1 pH, 1 modal port (pH OR ORP), 8 outlets, 6 switch inputs, four 0-10v control lines, and ethernet networking.
That is two more outlets, another probe port, 4 more switch inputs, and real networking for about $450-490 when found on sale. You still get more with the Apex for up to $50 less than the on sale Profilux.
I really enjoy the upgradability of it on the hardware front
Hardware expandability is an important component of any controller system. Most controller options have a good list of expansion modules, Profilux and others included. The problem I see with the Profilux however is the price.
Apex cost of expansion : ~$18.75/ea.
Profilux cost of expansion: ~$45.33/ea.
That is more than double per outlet.
Want to add a few modules to that base Profilux II so it has networking and a second probe port?
ethernet (LAN) - ~$190
second pH or ORP - ~$100
That would bring your total to around $790, and you would still have less hardware/input options that you would get with an Apex.
Like I said, I really do think the Profilux is a good product, just relatively overpriced for what you get. It was a top of the line controller when it came out, and GHL could charge those kind of retail prices because there was little to no competition in it's category. Unfortunately for GHL, other competitors have come out with products with the same features and/or more for a lower price, but the Profilux price structure has not changed to reflect the newer market dynamics.
Referring to what I said at the start of this post, the Cerebra may well put all the other controllers in the dust when it comes out this summer, Profilux and Apex included. The expandability and capability of an Android based controller system is near limitless. It should be able to do things that other controllers will never be able to do. The largest factor relating to it's widespread success is a yet to be announced price point.
Hope this helps,
Landon
snorvich
03/17/2011, 12:39 PM
All very valuable information. Most important features for me are: ease of use and integration into my existing LAN so I can program on my office computer.
nemosworld
03/17/2011, 01:38 PM
i would go with apex to control my system, but control the AI's with their controller.
does everything you want, and cost as much if not less than the add on to control it from the apex. plus it's easy to make changes on the fly with the ai control.
but for remote access, which i don't know why you would need it, the apex add on would be the besat option. as far as ease of use with these controller's, i find once you understand their format, it becomes easy to use. i admit sometimes the literature that comes with them, tend to be confusing. for the apex, there is an un-official guide to help you set it up. That book rocks:
http://reeftech.webs.com/Apex%20New%20User%20Guide.pdf
kevlar619
03/18/2011, 04:20 PM
Where can you get the cable to connect an Apex VDM to the Aqua Illuminations serial port? Thanks.
Shard
03/18/2011, 09:54 PM
Where can you get the cable to connect an Apex VDM to the Aqua Illuminations serial port? Thanks.
You can either build one, or order one from either Neptune or a dealer like ReefGeek.
unbreakable
03/18/2011, 10:08 PM
Can't go wrong with either. I've owned both apex and profilux 3. Profilux has been rock solid since setting it up and haven't messed with settings in a long time. Apex is flexible in programming and easier to program. I'm just using the p3 for tunze, vortech, ato, lighting, return pump, and fans. Each has pros and cons.
There is no wireless adapter for the profilux anymore. You might find one from a fellow reefer. I have one but don't use it.
Shard
03/18/2011, 10:13 PM
There is no wireless adapter for the profilux anymore. You might find one from a fellow reefer.
Hey unbreakable,
I see it for $345.91 on Progressive Reef, did they stop manufacturing them or something?
Landon
unbreakable
03/19/2011, 02:54 PM
Hey unbreakable,
I see it for $345.91 on Progressive Reef, did they stop manufacturing them or something?
Landon
I believe so. On the support forum they said they no longer made them due to the complexity of setting one up (mainly people with no networking experience). It was hard setting it up on the p3 but did have it running, just didn't find a need for it anymore.
jdarr
07/08/2011, 01:01 AM
I dont normally post much, but as a user of both products I couldn't resist.
I just dumped my Apex after it died after three months. My dealer replaced the defective part (the aqua controller) with a new one, which had all sorts of probe errors. So my dealer replaced it with a third one... and it didn't work out of the box... totally dead. So I got him to replace it AGAIN, which he did. I promptly unloaded the whole system on craigslist and bought a Profilux 3.
I am sure it is possible that I was just unlucky... and for three months it was a nifty little unit. It was easy to use, and pretty cheap... but limited in what it could do. You had a temp probe, a PH probe and a secondary probe for ORP or PH2. Which, is enough I guess. The daily data reporting was quite nice actually.
Initially, all I hated was the poor reliability... until I used the Profilux... it was clear then how inferior the Apex was... how much it did not do, could not do and will never do until they come out with a new and better unit... You would not be able to add these features to your existing Apex unit.
The Profilux programming was by far more advanced, and every unit (and every accessory) they make is upgradeable and can be added or used with your existing system. You don't need to throw your device away and start over. (which I sorta had to do with my Junior - that's how I ended up with the Apex).
The Profilux system allows you to add as many probes as you like, (I have 2 PH, ORP, conductivity, multiple temp probes, optical and analogue level sensors, (with unbelievable control over the programming, alarms etc). It controls wave makers, (I can completely control my 4 Tunze's (6105's) without needing the Tunze controller. It allowed me to fully program the Tunze's in a way that even the Tunze controller (7096) did not do. (like have the two higher pumps closer to the water's surface turn off if the return pump isn't running (like during feeding or maintenance - stops them from sucking air).
The Profilux set up is a *****. Very difficult to learn how to use... but once you do it is superb. but it was HARD to learn as the literature is German, or English that was translated from German poorly. probably the worst thing about the Profilux. (or second worst next to the price lol)
The control is really spectacular. Here is an example of the Profilux brilliance: If for whatever reason my return pump stops (like during maintenance for example), normally, the water level in the sump would rise and cause the skimmer to overflow releasing all the garbage back into the water from the skimmer cup... but, with the programming in the Profilux, I can have it shut off and stay off until the water level goes back to normal, or have it start on a delay when the pump returns to normal to allow the water level in the sump to return to normal (or both ;-). This is a pretty basic concept, but you get the idea. With the programming logic, you can make it do whatever you want it to.
You can even automate water changes...
If you can afford the extra costs, I'd fully recommend that you do it. I actually ended up making a bit of a discount for myself by selling my Tunze Osmolator and 7096, which I no longer needed after purchasing the Profilux. All together I think it cost me about $2700 (but less after I sold my other devises- was closer to $2k)
In regard to lighting, on top of the gazillion things it can do with compatible LED light systems, the Profilux has an add on that allows the power sockets to Dim which will enable you to use just about any dimmable light and control it fully with the Profilux. I have not done this yet, but I am looking into LED or dimmable ballasts. Pretty excited about it.
But at the moment, it currently operates my 4 Metal Halides (250 watts), 2 actinic and moon lights (and my sump light), my ATO, Skimmer, Return pump, Tunze's and heaters with just 2 of the digital power bars. (I don't run my chiller on there, only because I want that on a separate power circuit in my apartment.)
Best of luck with your research.
Jason
snorvich
07/08/2011, 06:43 AM
My experience reflects that of Jason. There is no controller on the market today that compares to Profilux. You can very simply do anything with it. Learning how to do what what you want to do is sometimes a bit high on the learning curve (I blog what I have learned) but the software on the PC is superb and upgraded frequently as new features are added. Also, online support from the supplying sponsor is superb.
pencil3
07/08/2011, 12:46 PM
Well then I need to ask, what can Profilux do that you can't do on a Apex?
My experience reflects that of Jason. There is no controller on the market today that compares to Profilux. You can very simply do anything with it. Learning how to do what what you want to do is sometimes a bit high on the learning curve (I blog what I have learned) but the software on the PC is superb and upgraded frequently as new features are added. Also, online support from the supplying sponsor is superb.
luisagos
07/08/2011, 01:48 PM
I have own Profilux over the years, and i say its the best on market.
Just brought another one for my new build. (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2039381)
To answer pencil3 question; "Well then I need to ask, what can Profilux do that you can't do on a Apex?"
A controller that has problems or that is waiting for updates all the time, is a worthless controller IMHO. Controller is the watchdog for your system, quality is not something to be overlooked.
One word, whats makes Profilux > all, Reliability !
If you get a full blown Apex and compare prices with same Profilux is not so far off. I think GHL is trying to narrow down the cost with all these sales they have, 25% off is a great deal.
Hence why I brought one last week, and FedEx just dropped it off today.
One more thing I saw it had the last-est updates, they updated the my controller before they shipped it out, not sure if this is a normal practice, but I thought it was cool.
snorvich
07/08/2011, 02:47 PM
the updates are not difficult but it was nice it came with the latest.
pencil3
07/08/2011, 03:09 PM
Well what kind of problems does the Apex have? And what kind of updates is it waiting on?
Still would love to hear from snorvich on what the Profilux will do but the Apex can't.
I have own Profilux over the years, and i say its the best on market.
Just brought another one for my new build. (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2039381)
To answer pencil3 question; "Well then I need to ask, what can Profilux do that you can't do on a Apex?"
A controller that has problems or that is waiting for updates all the time, is a worthless controller IMHO. Controller is the watchdog for your system, quality is not something to be overlooked.
One word, whats makes Profilux > all, Reliability !
If you get a full blown Apex and compare prices with same Profilux is not so far off. I think GHL is trying to narrow down the cost with all these sales they have, 25% off is a great deal.
Hence why I brought one last week, and FedEx just dropped it off today.
One more thing I saw it had the last-est updates, they updated the my controller before they shipped it out, not sure if this is a normal practice, but I thought it was cool.
luisagos
07/08/2011, 03:30 PM
I recommend just visit the official support forums of each controller and see what going on, best you to see it for your self.
Never let others make your decisions for you, they can help, buts your money.
I really do not know what a full blown Apex can do, but I know as fact a Profilux can do anything and be hook up to anything you can imagine.
Interesting thing, GHL really doesn't market analog inputs, i believe its the only controller in the market that can do this. The programming allows you do some very complex code with the inputs.
Some of the thousands things that can be hooked up to the analog input.
Flow meter.
Co2 meter.
PAR meter.
Any equipment that has analog that has a variable 10v output.
I also love the optical sensors, again i think Profilux only ones that can carry it.
Got to the point, I never cleaned them for over a year, they worked so well for level control.
snorvich
07/08/2011, 05:06 PM
Well what kind of problems does the Apex have? And what kind of updates is it waiting on?
Still would love to hear from snorvich on what the Profilux will do but the Apex can't.
Ah, not my job, that is YOUR job since it is your money. My opinion of Profilux comes from owning multiple ones on multiple tanks. And it also comes from evaluation of the hardware and software architecture (I used to be in the software development business although not in this application area). As mentioned, read the support forums for the kinds of issues encountered. Learning the full capabilities of this product is not trivial, but in my opinion (my pocket book voted) worth while.
snorvich
07/08/2011, 05:10 PM
By the way, I am not saying anything about any controller other than Profilux. I went through the evaluation and it is what I purchased. And I am glad I did.
pencil3
07/08/2011, 06:40 PM
Ah, not my job, that is YOUR job since it is your money.
But that is not what I am asking, when you make a statement like this:
There is no controller on the market today that compares to Profilux.
People are going to ask why. So again I ask, why do no other controllers on the market compare to Profilux? I think it's sort of silly to say something like that, and then not state why it is, don't you (especially when coming from a Team RC member)? I'm not looking to stir the pot, just curious....
snorvich
07/08/2011, 08:39 PM
But that is not what I am asking, when you make a statement like this:
People are going to ask why. So again I ask, why do no other controllers on the market compare to Profilux? I think it's sort of silly to say something like that, and then not state why it is, don't you (especially when coming from a Team RC member)? I'm not looking to stir the pot, just curious....
It is simply my opinion. I am hardly going to spend a couple of pages on this. if it is of interest to you, do your homework, as I am not trying to convince you or anyone to purchase Profilux or any other piece of equipment. Team RC membership has nothing what so ever to do with being obligated to provide an analysis of why I think what I do with regard to my purchases. If you like and prefer Apex, please purchase such with my blessings.
snorvich
07/08/2011, 08:43 PM
But, pencil3, on further review of your posts, I see you are an Apex advocate and defender. No problem by me. You buy what you think is best, I do the same.
James77
07/08/2011, 09:11 PM
If you get a full blown Apex and compare prices with same Profilux is not so far off. I think GHL is trying to narrow down the cost with all these sales they have, 25% off is a great deal.
Hence why I brought one last week, and FedEx just dropped it off today.
.
Im sorry, but the Profilux is far more expensive. I do not know what you consider a full blown Apex system, as the needs of all of us varies so much. For starters, right out of box with the Apex, you get:
8 controllable outlets
4 0-10v ports that can work with anything 0-10v
ph port
ORP port(can be a 2nd pH port)
temp probe
remote display with controllability
ethernet port with web
This for about $490 from many retailers...
Right off the bat, you need upgrade with an expansion port to acheive ethernet on a PII. There is no remote, controllable display with the Profilux II...it requires the PIII upgrade, and the touchscreen display. Neat thing, but it adds cost to what the Apex can do out of box. You do not get as many controllable outlets with the packages from Profilux, it is the 6 outlet bar...the 4 outlet one on their cheapest packages.
The Beginner PII pack is $600. Again, this lacks ethernet and a remote controllable display. It lacks an ORP port. These things may not be needed by some of us, but just the starting packages alone, Apex has alot more bang for your buck that most aquarist need.
Now.....Profilux is a great company, and they do put out reliable equipment and reliable software. A major plus....however, Apex is not exactly putting out garbage, and it is a stable controller. Minor hiccups can happen, but Neptune is quick to correct them. If money is not a major factor, and you do want the absolute best, then check out Profilux. I have...and I just cannot justify the extra cost for the things I get form the Apex for alot less.
I Some of the thousands things that can be hooked up to the analog input.
Flow meter.
Co2 meter.
PAR meter.
Any equipment that has analog that has a variable 10v output.
l.
The vast majority of us are never going to need CO2 meters, flow meters, or PAR meters hooked constantly to our tanks. Yes, it is cool to be able to do such things, but I consider them a toy. Most are just wanting or needing a contrroller to automate the more basic things, and monitor and control from anywhere. They also want that without breaking the bank.
James77
07/08/2011, 09:16 PM
People are going to ask why. So again I ask, why do no other controllers on the market compare to Profilux? I think it's sort of silly to say something like that, and then not state why it is, don't you (especially when coming from a Team RC member)? I'm not looking to stir the pot, just curious....
ANY controller on the market can compare with Profilux, and give it a good run for its money. I did own one briefly, but was not at all impressed with the hype around it. My first thought was that it can really do nothing my Apex could not do. It could randomize Tunzes....cool thing, but not really needed. I can get pretty precise control with the Apex, and more features are added as time goes on.
I consider the Apex/Neptune the best controller when you balance features, price, and reliability. DA is decent, although they are behind both Apex and Profilux. Profilux is great and reliable. If you can justify its extra cost, then go for it. If I had the money and desire to have such extensive control of my tank, I would most liekly get one.
luisagos
07/08/2011, 10:06 PM
Im sorry, but the Profilux is far more expensive. I do not know what you consider a full blown Apex system, as the needs of all of us varies so much.
I am talking about the Mega Pack Profilux3 ex.
Apex is about 25% less, when you add up all the things up.
Now.....Profilux is a great company, and they do put out reliable equipment and reliable software. A major plus....however, Apex is not exactly putting out garbage, and it is a stable controller. Minor hiccups can happen, but Neptune is quick to correct them. If money is not a major factor, and you do want the absolute best, then check out Profilux. I have...and I just cannot justify the extra cost for the things I get form the Apex for alot less.
I did, and do no want minor hiccups crashing my tanks. Keeping a reef aquariums from crashing is stressful enough.
25% that I might save is not worth it to me.
The vast majority of us are never going to need CO2 meters, flow meters, or PAR meters hooked constantly to our tanks. Yes, it is cool to be able to do such things, but I consider them a toy. Most are just wanting or needing a contrroller to automate the more basic things, and monitor and control from anywhere. They also want that without breaking the bank.
I am sure a lot of the old dogs laugh at us with all these High Tech equipment, I am sure they see everything as toys.
I work in a WWTP and we use Siemens PLC everywhere, you know why?
Because of the Service and the Superiorly of Reliability they offer to us.
Funny thing Siemens and Profilux are German made, I even drive a Mini-Cooper. I have a German thing going on, now I need to find a German Girl and I be set. :dance:
Matthias Gross
07/09/2011, 02:25 AM
Hi
this was an interesting discussion so far.
Let me add just a few things
- price - you always get what you pay for, it's quite simple
we know that we are not the cheapest, but to be honest, we don't want to be the cheapest, we just want to be the best
Of course we try to make attractive prices, but the way we produce and test, the components we use and the permanent engineering and support affords a certain price level.
You should compare similar systems with (nearly) equal features and look into the details (e.g. comparing outlets - what load (type and max. Ampere) can they switch; e.g. sensors - how many can you connect, what and how can you control things based on the readings; e.g. bus system - failure protection + max. wire length) and so on and so on ...
- features
I don't want to tell you what other systems can't do, you must find this out by yourself (yes I know it is not so easy, the product descriptions I found on the competitors websites are not very detailled, this is just my personal impression - maybe I just didn`t find what I've searched for...)
I only can tell you what the ProfiLux system is able to do, you find a brief overview on our entry page:
http://www.aquariumcomputer.com/System__E_/system__e_.html
If you need more details you should read the programmers guide and the manuals:
http://support.aquariumcomputer.com/english/sections.php
I really don't want an emotional discussion about aquarium controllers, we had enough in the past.
Just compare the features (don't forget the details), the expandability, support and prices, consider what you really need and your budget and make your choice. It's your tank and your money.
(Hi Mods, if I am not allowed to post these links in this part of the forum I am sorry, then we should move the post to our sub forum.)
Matthias Gross
07/09/2011, 04:38 AM
okay, coming back to the original topic: Aquarium controller <-> Aqua Illumination
ProfiLux supports AI 2-channel and 3-channel lamps, all channels can be controlled independently (ProfiLux has 32 independent illumination channels - the assignments ProfiLux illumination channel - AI channel is adjustable).
Each channel can have its own illumination run, you can activate special functions like moon cycle, clouds, time delay, thunderstorm, rainy days, temp. dependend light reduction (when water too warm light is dimmed), etc.
Read more about the ProfiLux illumination control on our website.
James77
07/09/2011, 07:48 AM
I am talking about the Mega Pack Profilux3 ex.
Apex is about 25% less, when you add up all the things up.
The deal you are referring to is refenced in this thread:
http://www.progressivereef.com/proddetail.php?prod=PIIMega&cat=257
$940 gets you the following equipment:Profilux 3eX controller
6 Outlet Digital PAB Power bar (PAB = Profilux Aquatic Bus)
GHL Temperature Probe
GHL pH Probe
GHL Salinity Probe
PAB cable
Calibration solutions
So the Apex base package gives you the following for $490:
Apex controller
Apex head unit
8 outletStrip Plug
Temp probe
pH probe
cables
Add $165 to give the Apex salinity...which will also get you 6 more I/O inputs for a total of 12, plus and additional temp port. So we are at $655 for the APex. However, the Apex gives you ORP as well, so we can add $150 ($106 for expansion prot from ProgressiveReef and $40 for BRS for ORP , cheapest prices to give examples).
So the total for somewhat comparable features is $655 for Apex and $1,090 for the Profilux. So the Apex is about 40% cheaper than the Profilux by my figures, please correct me if I missed something.
Now, it also needs to be mentioned that the Apex gives you a controllable head unit with that as well....great for feed cycles, manula control, programming, etc. The Profilux lacks tha tin its package, but the PIII allows you to get the touchscreen color head unit at an additional cost of $350, now we are at $1,440 to be comparable to similar features in an Apex, and the Apex has an additional 2 controlled outlests on top of that. Not a truly fair comparison on the head units, since the Profilux is touchscreen, and I am sure will be more comprehensive and have better features thant the Apex head.....but a point nontheless.
I did, and do no want minor hiccups crashing my tanks. Keeping a reef aquariums from crashing is stressful enough.
25% that I might save is not worth it to me.
Well, I just pointed out that the 25% is being very liberal on the Profilux. These minor hiccups do not crash tanks.....the heating, pumps, doser controls etc are extremely stable and been around for many years. I am talking of things like 0-10v ramp control and integration hiccups, things that will not crash a tank. Alot of those are user learning curve problems, some are software problems. Curt is great at addressing the issues.
Thats great it is not worth it to you, the Profilux is more reliable than Apexs already outstanding reliabilty. You do get that for the extra price....however, the Apex is FAR from being anywhere near unreliable. For some, they can not justify the extra cost of the Profilux, which is real and can add up.
I am sure a lot of the old dogs laugh at us with all these High Tech equipment, I am sure they see everything as toys.
Yeah, Im sure they do. But it is easier to justify heating, lighting control, pump, LED ramping as needed comared to flow meters, CO2 meters, and PAR monitoring.
James77
07/09/2011, 07:58 AM
- price - you always get what you pay for, it's quite simple
we know that we are not the cheapest, but to be honest, we don't want to be the cheapest, we just want to be the best
That is true for the most part. Your equipment and software defintiely wins for the best potential reliabliltiy and stability. However, Neptune is more balanced with the price, and did not sacrifice much quality or relibility to get there. Similar to the Bubble King vs any of the more mainstream skimmers. If you want the absolute best, you pay. But very similar functinlaity can be had for less.
Just compare the features (don't forget the details), the expandability, support and prices, consider what you really need and your budget and make your choice. It's your tank and your money.
This....its what it does come down to. You do offer a great controller, as does Neptune. I consider those 2 to be the only choice as far as reliability, service, and features. As well as new features and products....you 2 actually compete in that area, where other companies don't even address the new possibilites.
Pros and cons to Profilux and Neptune. I just do not like the ridiculous statements that come from some Profilux owners that no other controller can compare to Profilux , it is completely false.
snorvich
07/09/2011, 08:51 AM
Aquarium controllers are like cars. Buy what you like. If you prefer to drive GM, do so. If you prefer driving Mercedes, do so. I doubt that either side will convince the other.
Matthias Gross
07/09/2011, 09:04 AM
Jim, I agree to most points.
But I am not sure if the price comparison is correct. It would be correct if both example systems had exactly the same functions and features, but I doubt that this is the case. There are many differences in the details (I mentioned a few in the previous post).
I think a calculation like "Dollar per outlet" makes not much sense as long as the compared items are not exactly the same (to stay at the outlet example - load type, max. current, security functions, bus system, ...), this kind of calculation is too simple in my opinion.
Again - the customer should grab as much information as possible from the manufacturers website and maybe listen to the experience of aquarium controller owners, although they are not always neutral...
I just do not like the ridiculous statements that come from some Profilux owners that no other controller can compare to Profilux , it is completely false.
Let us keep fair - as we can read nearly every day in other threads here and in other forums or blogs owners of other controllers post also extreme statements, not only ProfiLux owners ;)
Matthias Gross
07/09/2011, 09:06 AM
Aquarium controllers are like cars. Buy what you like. If you prefer to drive GM, do so. If you prefer driving Mercedes, do so. I doubt that either side will convince the other.
very true
I think the debates about aquarium controllers are always very emotional.
As long as everybody stays fair and polite and accepts that there are different opinions this is not bad at all.
chem-e
07/09/2011, 09:34 AM
I purchased the Profilux a couple years back, but spent a lot of time reviewing the capabilities of both the Apex and Profilux. Both are great controllers that fit the needs of most users and we're lucky to have so many choices to chose from. At the end of the day, I purchased the Profilux because it fit what I needed. I was looking for a controller that could do all the basic controller functions, plus control a doser, Tunzes, and Vortech. My Profilux II with Profilux doser was a great match for my needs and although the setup was expensive, price was not high on the requirements. If you figure out what your needs are and prioritize them before making a decision, I don't think you'll go wrong as both are great controllers.
luisagos
07/09/2011, 10:06 AM
Profilux always had set the standard and that fact is still true today with all the features and reliability you get.
Apex is a great controller to start on for the price, great stepping stone.
I am a control freak I want the whole thing now, and not wait for a patch.
Wiling to pay more for it.
Perfect example, when i started to investigate a controller for my aquarium, my standard are very high. I am use to having Siemens PLC controllers to control everything.
I even noticed Profilux lacking on one thing, that all PLC have; Analog input.
This was mention to Matthias by me, to my surprise he release product right away.
This is what i look for a controller, to control things now and be 100% reliable.
Have the latest and greatest toys now.
Everyone has a different comfort zone, my is with Profilux.
Everyone should be buying what they can afford and use good judgment, very hard to do in this hobby.
Please do the homework yourself.
luisagos
07/09/2011, 10:38 AM
This what i wanted to order last week.
Apex
Apex w/ Display Module & Lab pH, ORP & Temp Probe & EB8 Neptune Systems $535.46
NEP0147 Probe Module 2 for Conductivity (Salinity) & Temperature (PM2) Neptune Systems $84.95
NEP0117 Lab Grade Conductivity Probe Neptune Systems $119.95
Apex Wireless Expansion Module/Vortech Compatible $124.99
Subtotal $865.35
Profilux
Mega Pack P3 ex $989
GHL Vortech Control Module $149.99
Profilux Redox (ORP) Electrode 110.93
Subtotal $1249.92
About 30% more, i was close.
Those was the features i wanted for this tank, and neptune do not offer any optical probes for level control. That was deal breaker for me. Those things are great, better then a stupid float that needs to be clean all the time.
James77
07/09/2011, 03:23 PM
Jim, I agree to most points.
But I am not sure if the price comparison is correct. It would be correct if both example systems had exactly the same functions and features, but I doubt that this is the case. There are many differences in the details (I mentioned a few in the previous post).
I think a calculation like "Dollar per outlet" makes not much sense as long as the compared items are not exactly the same (to stay at the outlet example - load type, max. current, security functions, bus system, ...), this kind of calculation is too simple in my opinion.
They do share the main functions that are listed. Apex is capable of pretty advanced programming....but I do agree that Profilux is capable of more adavanced things, and does offer more integration of hardware, like dosers. I have always been right at the tipping point on going for your controller, believe me :). On the outlets, you are right that they are cannot be based on numbers alone. The APex is limited to 2 of them being relays, the rest triacs....not great for low current items. I believe yours are 100% relays?
- as we can read nearly every day in other threads here and in other forums or blogs owners of other controllers post also extreme statements, not only ProfiLux owners ;)
Oh absolutely...and I did not intend to single out your controllers owners as the only ones capable of that :). It is actually a very minor few that boast like that. Just referring to the statements made in this thread. I don't mind someone stating that Profilux is more stable and a higher quality controller...they are true statements. But to say anything else cannot compare is not true, it just sounds silly.
Matthias Gross
07/10/2011, 08:49 AM
Answer to your question regarding powerbars/relays
All 6 outlets (channels) of the ProfiLux powerbar have so called "High Inrush Current" relays, load can be inductive or capacitive or anything between, very small loads or loads up to 15A (for 115V) resp. up to 10A (230V) can be switched, inrush currents up to 160A aren't a problem (ballasts, switching power supply etc.)
The PAB-version (ProfiLux Aquatic Bus) has a separate current measurement for each channel.
DaveMorris
07/10/2011, 12:39 PM
I would look at the Apex to Profilux comparison the same as comparing a Corvette to a BMW M5. Both are extraordinary cars and both will go fast and get you from point A to point B. However you will always have people debating back and forth over which one is better. As well as whether or not German engineering in the BMW is better than American engineering in the Vette. I tend to agree that when price is a significant factor that one considers in a controller purchase between the Apex and Profilux, the Apex wins. There is also a lot of logic in considering the fact that a 20% - 30% difference in cost is probably not very significant when it comes to protecting the environment of potentially thousands of dollars worth of livestock, a lot of which you've had for years and can't possibly even have a value attached to it.
The bottom line for me is to research capabilities, pros and cons, price, availability, service, etc. Then and only then, can an educated decision be made. It is a tough choice these days with all of the improvements being made as well as the growth of knowledge we as hobbyists are gaining into what it takes to keep these animals alive.
snorvich
07/10/2011, 01:15 PM
Good post /\/\/\
pencil3
07/10/2011, 02:53 PM
That is the whole reason for my post, it's just utterly ridiculous for someone to make such a statement with nothing at all to back it up.
I just do not like the ridiculous statements that come from some Profilux owners that no other controller can compare to Profilux , it is completely false.
pencil3
07/10/2011, 03:01 PM
Neptune does not offer any switches. If you want to use a optical level switch you would supply your own from your choice of manufacture. Optical level switches work fine with the Apex though.
Those was the features i wanted for this tank, and neptune do not offer any optical probes for level control. That was deal breaker for me. Those things are great, better then a stupid float that needs to be clean all the time.
DaveMorris
07/11/2011, 11:39 AM
Neptune does not offer any switches. If you want to use a optical level switch you would supply your own from your choice of manufacture. Optical level switches work fine with the Apex though.
This brings up a good point about the vast differences of opinions on controllers. I would never use an optical sensor for level control. (At least not any of them that I have seen built for this hobby) My reason? I have seen a friend's ATO system fail due to a snail getting in the way of the sensor being able to do what it does. I use an air pressure driven system for my ATO. It is flawless and there is no way for a creature to find its way in there somewhere to mess it up. I am sure there are people out there who swear by optical sensors. To each his own.
luisagos
07/11/2011, 02:43 PM
Good point Dave.
If you set the controller correctly, most if not all problems will be avoided. I also mount my sensors at the sump level, where the return pump is located.
I don’t let anything in that section to be around.
Profilux programming has delay off and delay on timers, with alarms for every condition.
For example for my ATO. Level 1 Sensor is touching the water, when the water gets below that sensor; I have set that it must be below that level for 3 min, if not then the timer resets.
Once the ATO starts, then it will pump for 2 min and only 2 min, it’s a time I picked. If the water that I just added does not reach Level 1 Sensor within the 2 min, the alarm will sound, and it will send an email. Shut off ATO.
Level 2 Sensor is programmed to sound a high level alarm and also send an email.
If the water gets that high and again its has a delay on for the alarm.
My probes will be out of the water if a snail got on Level 1 Sensor, that itself would get a alarm and a email.
With this setup I will catch most things and not let the controller do bad things to my tank if it’s not needed.
DaveMorris
07/11/2011, 04:01 PM
Seems like a smart approach. I have found that there is almost always a way to sort of "back up" a controllers critical functions. Granted if you have to back up everything then there isn't much point in getting a controller to begin with. I just don't understand the posts when people say "Your controller shut down and killed $10k worth of livestock in my tank." Anybody that sets things up so that can happen is asking for trouble. Most of these controllers have functionality to allow for warnings and safeties to prevent catastrophic failure. The question is...how much is one willing to pay for those features?
luisagos
07/12/2011, 10:46 AM
Everything is controlled by my Profilux. Some people think having a top end controller is going to be enough.
They need to understand how things work and understand how to program that controller correctly.
It’s easy to turn on/off pumps by a level signal. Much better to add some program logic to that signal, so pumps do not turn on/off when there not to suppose to.
People can justify anything if they want it. The key is can they justify not having it.
The whole world runs off PLC; Aquarium controller is just a bit less powerful.
Important part is, can my controller actually control things correctly and be reliable.
OceanDweller
08/05/2011, 12:13 PM
So if I only have an option to choose between a corvette and a mercades which to chooose? Would not the Aqua controller JR be like a civic or focus?
I would like a lexus... and why is the profiliux the only controller on the market that is touch screen? Its nearly 2012.
Are any controllers compatible with an iPhone? That would be a neat feature to have, an app that you hit that lets you know exactly what params are on the tank, that would be useful even in the house. "Feel free to steal the idea please-and not overcharge"
Also could you imagine sitting at dinner, watching the tank and controlling the vortechs/tunzes from your iPhone/android based phones? I would so be like wave mode from time to time. That would make feeding extremely easy as well.
AQD_ottawa
08/05/2011, 12:15 PM
ProfiLux has had an iphone app for about 18 months! :)
Shard
08/05/2011, 01:44 PM
So if I only have an option to choose between a corvette and a mercades which to chooose? Would not the Aqua controller JR be like a civic or focus?
Depends on your needs. If you are talking about the Apex JR, it can use all the expansion modules the regular Apex can, has network features, and an iPhone app that works with it. I would not use an AC JR now as they are older generation and are technically more expensive than the newer and better Apex JR. I wouldn't call it a focus compared to a mercedes, more like the same mercedes with a "fully loaded" versus basic package. You can always expand the basic package to have every feature the other unit has, and under the hood they are based on the same thing.
I would like a lexus... and why is the profiliux the only controller on the market that is touch screen? Its nearly 2012.
The Vertex Cerebra is coming out soon with an Android based touchscreen as a head unit, but I would argue that since there are fully functional iPhone apps for the Apex and Apex JR, they are already wireless touchscreen controllers if you want them to be. Even the RKE has partial functionality from its iPhone app making it somewhat of a touchscreen controller.
Are any controllers compatible with an iPhone? That would be a neat feature to have, an app that you hit that lets you know exactly what params are on the tank, that would be useful even in the house. "Feel free to steal the idea please-and not overcharge"
Addressed this above. It has been available for years already, and is free. A simple search should turn up lots of information. On iPhone look for Aquanotes for the Apex line, or iReef for the RKE. If you have an Android phone look for Apex for the Apex or myReef for the RKE.
Also could you imagine sitting at dinner, watching the tank and ycontrolling the vortechs/tunzes from your iPhone/android based phones? I would so be like wave mode from time to time. That would make feeding extremely easy as well.
I have been doing this with my Apex for over a year.
Hope this helps,
Landon
rtolz
09/14/2011, 01:51 PM
Are any controllers compatible with an iPhone?
I just installed an app on my Android phone (HTC EVO 4G, but it would no doubt work for any android phone) for the Apex. It's kind of neat sitting a few feet away from the tank, observing from my phone what the pH of my calcium reactor is, and then startling my family members by turning lights on and off from my touchpad.
If I had done research about the Profilux when I considered getting the Apex a few months ago, I might have considered it. However, the Neptune line came with a strong recommendation from the online seller. He was actually steering me towards the lower end, but I looked at the various gradations of the offerings, and it always seemed that the more I spent, the better bang for the buck I was receiving in the Neptune line. It was sort of like: "Sir, if you spend just 50 cents more you can get a jumbo popcorn." I went jumbo.
Some people want the absolute best that money can buy. That's why many people crave a BMW M5. Me? I'm a bang-for-the-buck kind of guy. That's why I drive a 6-speed manual transmission Infiniti G37. I sometimes joke that I would have considered a Bentley coupe, but I crossed it off my list since it doesn't come with a stick.
Neptune support has been great. Been on the phone with them a couple of times, and they even helped me circumvent my evil internet service provider that was blocking Port 80 and thereby preventing me from using my web interface from outside the house.
I can't say anything either good or bad about the competition. I can only say that I'm pleased with the Neptune Apex, and the fact that it will control the AI LED units was a tremendous factor in the decision I made yesterday to splurge for them.
reefkeeps
10/23/2011, 06:17 AM
So if I only have an option to choose between a corvette and a mercades which to chooose?
Also could you imagine sitting at dinner, watching the tank and controlling the vortechs/tunzes from your iPhone/android based phones? I would so be like wave mode from time to time. That would make feeding extremely easy as well.
Both of them have an Iphone APP, GHL doesn't make one specifically, it's a third party and it's like $25, Neptune has one that is free. Both are actually fairly good. I use both and honestly I tend to use the Neptune one more.
Neptune just released an IPad application as well....
reefkeeps
10/23/2011, 07:08 AM
I actually own both systems, my intention was to move to the GHL product but a couple of things stalled me;
GHL Cons
1) The cost of the power bars , I use 4 power bars on the APEX, I can usually get them on sale for about 125.00 each $500, the same with GHL is over $1200, the add ons are much more expensive with GHL,
2) The English support on the GHL website is not fun, unfortunately the RC forum is not for technical issues. Try changing a password for example, none of the admin screens are in English...
3) If you own a Mac (without VMware) ProfiLux is unusable, it requires a fat client!
4) The web client (that offers very little functionality vs. the Apex) also doesn't work on the Mac browsers. (Firefox, Safari, Chrome)
5) The domestic availability for add-ons is troubling, Aqua Cave has some stuff but not much, other than that you now have to deal with credit card fees, changes in currencies, and high shipping.
6) The beta of the up coming version dumped 2 gallons of Calcium into my tank, IT WAS A BETA, but why not broad cast a message letting the beta users know? I apparently wasn't the first person to have the problem.... When I posted a very balanced warning on RC I was told I shouldn't have...
7) The firmware requires a serial port (Yes let's all have a flash back to the 90s), you cannot use Ethernet but that's not considered a reliable port...
8) The power bars are HUGE, why did they do that? (Micheal, that is rhetorical question)
9) GHL cables, nothing I get locally, again, why?
The GHL upside,
1) You can do a lot with this system, it's very capable, it is also however, complicated
2) Other than the beta, it does appear to be reliable
3) The probe seems to be more stable
4) The doser rocks, Apex has nothing like it without incorporating a BRS type doser. Note: It's still missing the very obvious feature of letting me put in the amount to be dosed and it figuring out how to dose it... LiterMeter III does a good job of this....
Apex Upside,
1) This may surprise you but I have not found much this device can't do, it's ability to customize float switches and water sensors is fairly expansive
2) The Forum on RC is second to none, they will help you with any Questions and or Problems and quickly, the forum Moderators are awesome!
3) The unofficial guide to the Apex is nothing short of awesome,and it's free ( I however have donated a few times)
4) It's easy, or it's hard you get to make the choice
5) It's inexpensive (Vs. others)
6) It's USB and Plug & play
7) Small foot print
8) Service is good during normal working hours
9) It's all access and managed via a web browser!!!! This is huge for me, I can change config across the country, I did it in Japan a month ago... This also allows it to work with any operating system. MAC, Windows , IPad, whatever....
10) Apple App is free
APEX Cons
1) It doesn't have a touch screen, I don't really need one either
2) It can't control my LED lights (Pacific sun) but then again, the GHL control has less options that the light does
3) I'm having reliability issues with outlets duplicating and missing, this a very large concern for me, I'm not alone with this issue and it's a big issue for me.... I believe it has to do with the number of power bars I have but that is honestly a guess.. This was the reason I bought the GHL controller
4) Service requires that I send parts in to get them fixed, essentially you have to live without the part while it's being fixed, how do you that? I have a problem with a power par that doesn't give me the Amps being used, how do I go without that for 2 weeks to get it fixed?
This is just my opinion folks,
AQD_ottawa
10/23/2011, 07:42 AM
3) I'm having reliability issues with outlets duplicating and missing, this a very large concern for me, I'm not alone with this issue and it's a big issue for me.... I believe it has to do with the number of power bars I have but that is honestly a guess.. This was the reason I bought the GHL controller
Hiya
I will go through everything in more detail later, but for now i have highlighted this comment as it kind of says it all really! If you are relying on a system to control thousands of dollars of equipment then reliability should never ever come into question, and this is why people buy GHL, they have a system for life and that will stay reliable. And this is why huge set ups including public aquariums rely on GHL profiLux
The other points I will address later today but are all good points and note worthy feedback
James77
10/23/2011, 08:17 AM
4) Service requires that I send parts in to get them fixed, essentially you have to live without the part while it's being fixed, how do you that? I have a problem with a power par that doesn't give me the Amps being used, how do I go without that for 2 weeks to get it fixed?
I agree with most all of what you said.....I just wanted to add to this that pretty much all companies we deal with require the defective item to be sent in. Im not sure on Profilux, but both Neptune and Digital Aquatics do. It is a PITA for sure. I had the base unit on my Apex give out, and I was without control for about a week. I had the head unit on my RK ELite crap out, and it took over 3 weeks to get it in and returned fixed.
Luckily, my tank control needs right now are limited to lighting, heating, and dosing...all of which I can do pretty easily by hand for a week or 2, although it sure does make you appreciate controllers.
For a more complex controlled system, Id be out of my mind, but not sure it is an easy fix. You'd still have to wait half that time to get a replacement part to hold you over, and double the shipping costs to both sides. Plus cards would need to be charged/refunded. Not saying it is not worth it or not needed, just adding another thought.
reefkeeps
10/23/2011, 08:31 AM
Hiya
I will go through everything in more detail later, but for now i have highlighted this comment as it kind of says it all really! If you are relying on a system to control thousands of dollars of equipment then reliability should never ever come into question, and this is why people buy GHL, they have a system for life and that will stay reliable. And this is why huge set ups including public aquariums rely on GHL profiLux
The other points I will address later today but are all good points and note worthy feedback
Thank you Micheal, with all due respect, I think this forum is aimed at users not distributors or retailers that benefit from one being sold over the other...
I believe that's why it's posted in this forum vs. the GHL Profilux forum that you manage.
AQD_ottawa
10/23/2011, 08:46 AM
Ok, I will go through each GHL related point. But before I do, my approach to writing has been said to be a bit direct, I kind of bullet point things, so if it all sounds a bit direct its just how I write ;)
It is also not my place to get into any big product debate here, but is important to have points correctly addressed so the right information is provided to a very wide audience, too often wrong or missleading info is posted. So I hope those that are interested in learning about the product find this useful, if anyone wants any further info or has questions about anything written below please drop me a pm anytime :)
Power bars - With everything in life you get what you pay for. A controller is useless without a power bar you can rely on for years to come. Why more costly? Cost of manufature of a quality item using the most reliable active dual pole relays. This also explains the size. One more point also is that IF you damage your power bar it is self repairable, and we do not charge a dime more than GHL charge us for repair items so any missfortune does not become an expense.
ProfiLux as a product is built for client repair very rarely does a product have to be sent to us.
Support forum and support in general - GHL is a GLOBAL product, the USA market equates to about 5% of GHL's gross sales. To provide global support you need a dedicated forum. In regards to language, if you select your own language at set up then everything is in English.
This is also not the only form of support, if you read the note on the GHL RC forum it is noted that you have full 7 days a week eail support from us also, Reef Central should not be a support forum, you do not see Sony technical support offered on a chat forum about TV's, and this comes back to GHL being a global product with a global market, other brands widely talked about here are domestic only, so I understand to some degree why RC forms some support option.
If you go onto the gHL RC forum you will not see one person complaining about support in fact the opposite, just because there are not pages of support posts does not mean there is no support, it means two things 1. there is not many real issues (reference back to quality), and 2. we deal with it directly and personally one to one. Not all laundry needs airing ;)
Mac support - as the product is more and more becoming web server driven the need for dedicated Mac software is a pointless expense, where as the money could be better invested in hardware development, GHL is a hardware driven product not an Iphone toy.
Web client - A bit covered above, GHL is hardware driven the company is interested more in making a functional product you can rely on and not have to check every 5 minutes that a probe may have gone tits up ;) however in saying that, GHL are working (slowly to get it right) a very highly funcational APP, webserver and new software ALL that will be offered for free. Nothing with GHL happens over night but when it does it tends to be ground breaking in the industry, this has been proven time and time again. There is a funcational webserver right now that many already rely upon.
GHL also favour (and so do I) remote access to the software, the reason for this is because GHL being so advanced (but also very easy to use) has well over 8,000 dedicated programmable variables, there is not one web client available that can handle all that, so the best option is remote access to the software, and a good case in point to this was when a snail tripped my leakage alarm float sensor I should have months ago replaced with optical. I was in the UK and the system in Canada, I was able to get the whole system back up and running as I had complete 100% access to the controller as if I was standing by it. And that is one of the strongest points GHL is favoured by tank maintenance companies, they can dial in to any part of the system, if a hardware component needs switching the end user can do it and the maintenace guy sitting in his office with a hot coffee can set it up and monitor the progress.
Product availability - A lot of this is down to keeping an expensive highly professional product at a price people in the USA will accept, dealers want margins we simply can not give with the product due to the something for nothing market we are now in. So we sell to dedicated dealers that understand the product and are willing to give the support the clients require. In this case we asked one key dealer to set up GHL direct site, we are working with them to bring theyre shipping costs down, this is positive feedback to us and something we are aware is a weak spot and working on actually right now to resolve.
Beta PLC6 - this is what you are referring to and was as i understand it GHL first forray into third party developed software, I understand it was a 30,000 euro headache which GHL pulled and is now developing in house (slowly) with behind the scenes direct input from the global user base. In the meantime PLC5 continues to grow and as always is bullet proof and FREE.
Firmware - The firmware requires serial OR USB.
Powerbars (2) - covered in first comment
Cables - simple answer, to stop people buying the wrong thing and blowing their controller up, we went down this road 3 years ago and low and behold the attempted warranty returns went through the roof all because GHL gave out the pin outs for the L port! GHL is complex inside, it has a multitude of add ons no other controller offers, to offer this you need dedicated products to make the product reliable. All the time third party options are offered the product runs the risk of becoming instable and so support goes up, perception of quality goes down, all becuase the manufaturer loses control over what is connected to a proven stable platform.
Bottom line is if you want a controller that will last years (mine was built in 2002 starting off as a plus II and is now a fully upgraded P3EX version) all probes are actually still the same since 2007, yes you pay more to start with but after the first year you start to earn that money back and it wont take too long before you are saving money.
Users tend to max themselves out on the accessories in the first 6 months and then sit back and enjoy knowing full well they have a system for years that does not need constant checking on every 5 minutes.
Many thanks for creating such a nice and welcome debate it is rare these threads to stay so much on topic.
reefkeeps
10/23/2011, 08:46 AM
I agree with most all of what you said.....I just wanted to add to this that pretty much all companies we deal with require the defective item to be sent in. Im not sure on Profilux, but both Neptune and Digital Aquatics do. It is a PITA for sure. I had the base unit on my Apex give out, and I was without control for about a week. I had the head unit on my RK ELite crap out, and it took over 3 weeks to get it in and returned fixed.
Luckily, my tank control needs right now are limited to lighting, heating, and dosing...all of which I can do pretty easily by hand for a week or 2, although it sure does make you appreciate controllers.
For a more complex controlled system, Id be out of my mind, but not sure it is an easy fix. You'd still have to wait half that time to get a replacement part to hold you over, and double the shipping costs to both sides. Plus cards would need to be charged/refunded. Not saying it is not worth it or not needed, just adding another thought.
You may be right as it relates to the controller industry, other Marine companies have however adapted to a more flexible approach. If the drop ship a replacement it's really a 1/3 of the time, keep in mind shipping both ways and the repair time.
Echo-Tech, who I wish would enter this market, offers an option that you can pay for a replacement and upon receipt of the old one will then refund the fee. What I have noticed is they don't charge you at all, they just hold the CC number in case you don't return it. Great folks, amazing product, unreal service.
I have had similar experiences with a few other companies as well. Your example of three weeks is a great one!
Zomaar
10/23/2011, 12:36 PM
I'm also running a profilux and yes its pricey (very)
But on the other hand ,feature rich and still this thing is rock solid.
Do you need a controller to run your tank prolly not , but if you buy one make sure it does what is should do => aqua-CONTROL and this is what is does and keeps doing.
I never have to worry about it, If I would need to worry about it what's the point of running a controller then ?
reefkeeps
10/23/2011, 01:20 PM
Support forum and support in general - GHL is a GLOBAL product, the USA market equates to about 5% of GHL's gross sales. To provide global support you need a dedicated forum. In regards to language, if you select your own language at set up then everything is in English.
It changes some but not all of the screen to English, again, try and change a password...
Reef Central should not be a support forum, you do not see Sony technical support offered on a chat forum about TV's, and this comes back to GHL being a global product with a global market, other brands widely talked about here are domestic only, so I understand to some degree why RC forms some support option.
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If Sony made this product it would cost $200.00, how is Sony doing anyway? What does Global support have to do with anything?
ELOS is a domestic company? Echo-Tech doesn't sell outside North America?
If you go onto the gHL RC forum you will not see one person complaining about support in fact the opposite, just because there are not pages of support posts does not mean there is no support, it means two things 1. there is not many real issues (reference back to quality), and 2. we deal with it directly and personally one to one. Not all laundry needs airing
That's not entirely accurate, when they do turn ugly they lock the posts.....
Mac support - as the product is more and more becoming web server driven the need for dedicated Mac software is a pointless expense, where as the money could be better invested in hardware development, GHL is a hardware driven product not an Iphone toy.
I'm sorry but that is a ridiculous statement, Mac support and the Iphone support are two very different things. You may refer to it as a toy but the more than 200 MILLION owners may feel different.
The Iphone, IPad and tablet market in general is canalizing the PC market, it's even doing so with the Mac (even though as a percentage of growth Mac is still in positive territory)
Dell has already declared they will no longer be selling laptops inside of three years, HP is getting rid of the business, you can choice to ignore this "Toy" market but lets see who is still in business in 5 years... Apples market share has grown 400% in the past five years, what PC market compares? What PC market has shown ANY growth in five years? You don't have to like Apple, but you better be able to support it, that Market has arrived......
:Web client - A bit covered above, GHL is hardware driven the company is interested more in making a functional product you can rely on and not have to check every 5 minutes that a probe may have gone tits up however in saying that, GHL are working (slowly to get it right) a very highly funcational APP, webserver and new software ALL that will be offered for free. Nothing with GHL happens over night but when it does it tends to be ground breaking in the industry, this has been proven time and time again. There is a funcational webserver right now that many already rely upon.
It's functional only on a PC, again not a Mac, and it has very little function at least IMHO. You might be right about the Hardware company, but SaaS is unfortunately becoming a much bigger item. Welcome to the cloud...
Are you saying that 8000 variables is a challenge for a web-server to handle?
Yes, the software is free, although I seem to remember in the Beta of the new version it mentioned fees for expanding functionality...
reefkeeps
10/23/2011, 01:25 PM
I'm also running a profilux and yes its pricey (very)
But on the other hand ,feature rich and still this thing is rock solid.
Do you need a controller to run your tank prolly not , but if you buy one make sure it does what is should do => aqua-CONTROL and this is what is does and keeps doing.
I never have to worry about it, If I would need to worry about it what's the point of running a controller then ?
I agree with both of your points, I wouldn't do an SPS tank without some type of automation.
AQD_ottawa
10/23/2011, 01:29 PM
Hi Chris
As I said before I am not going to be drawn into debate here, my aim was to highlight a few points for levelled onward debate amongst everyone else.
However just a few points then please feel free to email me as always directly.
Yes you are 100% right "idiotic non sensical" posts have in the past been locked or removed, We do not do laundry in the open air, if someone has an issue there is a place for it to be addressed correctly and sadly forums have turned into product bashing grounds far to often and often totally without merit. I cant remember the last one to be locked or closed though.
The rest is pure personal perception of any product, but I am happy to continue via email appropriately where you can post our repsonses if you feel required.
All the best
Michael
SPSFiend
04/18/2012, 05:15 PM
Just read through this thread and wanted to thank the folks for all the input and info. I am in "research mode" for a controller. Hope to conclude on which to buy shortly but will continue my research for a bit.
Also wanted to comment on the corvette to BMW X5 comparison. How the heck does one compare a corvette to a SUV? LMAO Maybe a BMW M3 and a corvette. Point taken about BMW as a manufacturer when compared to General Motors. I actually own an X5 and an air cooled 911 so I can attest to German design and manufacturing :)
Anyhow, just wanted to express my thanks. I take it snorvich ended up purchasing a Profilux? Did not quite catch that clearly in the thread.
Cheers!
AQD_ottawa
04/18/2012, 05:42 PM
Yes he did if I remember correctly but drop him a pm you can get some good unbiased feedback then ;)
CleanUp
09/23/2012, 10:30 AM
My experience reflects that of Jason. There is no controller on the market today that compares to Profilux. You can very simply do anything with it. Learning how to do what what you want to do is sometimes a bit high on the learning curve (I blog what I have learned) but the software on the PC is superb and upgraded frequently as new features are added. Also, online support from the supplying sponsor is superb.
I would agree too, the Apex hangs ALL the time, and I have had not all that good experience with their tech support....
I bought a Profilux after Alan from Neptune threatened me with taking a feature from the controller when I properly documented a couple of issues with the web server and the web server hanging.
The Profilux support on the other hand it has been superb.
Yes the Neptune is “cheaper” but when it hangs, or fails and your entire aquarium (most of us invest thousands of dollars on them) is on the line do you really think that those $200-$400 you saved in the controller will do anything for you?
The one thing the Neptune has is its community they will help you no matter what. :beer:
BTW Now I have my Pro in my main tank and the apex in my quarantine, and looking for lunar LED from another vendor than Neptune
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