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View Full Version : T-5s are they really that much cooler ?


iamwrasseman
03/15/2011, 07:22 PM
i have installed dozens of fixtures usually removing MH and retrofitting T-5 units and have found that they really dont reduce the total heat inside the canopy . yes the MH is hotter but its much smaller and the T5 bulbs still do emit some good heat and i have actually seen tank temperatures increase from the T-5s . anyone find this true also ? the T-5 unit emits heat over the entire length of the bulbs which is considerably larger than a MH bulb .they are pretty close to the same BTU output i think . anyone have any info on the total BTU output of MH vs.T-5s ? or what are your opinions?

sirreal63
03/15/2011, 08:40 PM
Watts are heat, simple as that, 500 watts of halides, T5, VHO's, PC's, it is all the same heat. Where T5's shine is you can typically use less of them for an equivalent amount of light. I had issues with heat with a 6x39 in a canopy but usually a well placed fan or two can manage the heat. T5's spread the heat over a larger area making it seem cooler than a point source light, but the heat is the same, watt for watt. :-)

125G Reefer
03/15/2011, 08:59 PM
Watts are heat?? Hmm. Grab ahold of a 175w MH bulb, then grab ahold of 3 or 4 T-5's. you can hold the T-5's, not the MH.

rtparty
03/15/2011, 09:01 PM
Watts are heat?? Hmm. Grab ahold of a 175w MH bulb, then grab ahold of 3 or 4 T-5's. you can hold the T-5's, not the MH.

That is because you have a 175 watts in one small area.

Go cram 175 watts through 4 inches of a T5 tube and tell me it doesn't get hot. :rollface:

125G Reefer
03/15/2011, 09:02 PM
That is because you have a 175 watts in one small area.

Go cram 175 watts through 4 inches of a T5 tube and tell me it doesn't get hot. :rollface:

Thats why i said grab 3 or 4 bulbs. =) At one time.

125G Reefer
03/15/2011, 09:03 PM
Either one is simple to displace the heat, using a fews fans as stated above.

James77
03/15/2011, 09:09 PM
Thats why i said grab 3 or 4 bulbs. =) At one time.

Yes, but that 175 watts is spread out through alot more area.

Throw those 3-4 T5s in a sealed box, and the same amount of watts of halides in another sealed box......both boxes will heat the exact same.

rtparty
03/15/2011, 09:13 PM
Thats why i said grab 3 or 4 bulbs. =) At one time.

Okay so I grab 4 bulbs at once. We will assume they are 24 watt bulbs. The length is just shy of 22". For easy numbers we will say that for every inch of bulb is one watt.

I have smaller hands than normal but I figure I could displace about 4 inches. Meaning I can grab 16 inches of bulbs (4 bulbs x 4 inches). That is 16 whole watts! About 1/10th of the 175w MH.

Now if you could grab 40 bulbs at once, then you are talking!

To the OP though,

Heat is heat. With a fixture like the ATI's, there is a shield that forces the heat in one direction. It tends to heat the room a lot better than the tank.

Take that shield off and now the heat can travel downwards a little more.

Just my thoughts.

125G Reefer
03/15/2011, 09:39 PM
no matter how you guys wanna slice it, its not an apples to apples comparison.......

tkeracer619
03/15/2011, 09:59 PM
no matter how you guys wanna slice it, its not an apples to apples comparison.......

We didn't slice it. The first law of thermodynamics did it for us.

The topic has been beat to death over and over but in the end physics always wins. 500w of halide produce exactly the same heat as 500w of t5s.

b16drag
03/15/2011, 10:33 PM
500w of halide produce exactly the same heat as 500w of t5s.

Really? Please educate the uneducated.

tkeracer619
03/15/2011, 11:06 PM
Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. It can be converted.

Here is a 16 page thread of disagreement on the subject.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1330449

Another example.. a 100w submerged pump will heat your tank the same as a 100w submerged heater.



BTW: What are you running on your b16?

My dyno run on low boost (11psi) b18c :)
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4314/dynopull91110.jpg

reeferlover
03/15/2011, 11:56 PM
Not a chance. And heater is designed to heat and a pump is to move water. They don't generate the same heat. Same with the bulbs I can't see it. My six bulb tek is much cooler then my 150 mh

nanojg
03/16/2011, 07:14 AM
Seems like common sense to me. If you compare 150 watts of t5 to 150 watts of mh they will generate the same amount of heat (one being in a concentrated area, the other being spread out more).

I really dont understand how this can be complicated?

The comparison of holding a t5 bulb to holding a mh bulb is obviously not a good comparison.

barjam
03/16/2011, 08:04 AM
This not something that is up for debate it is simply fact. 500 watts of t5 produces the exact same amount of heat has 500 watts of mh. Full stop. End of discussion.

Then only thing that can be debated is the heat dissipation of one fixture type over another.

barjam
03/16/2011, 08:12 AM
Not a chance. And heater is designed to heat and a pump is to move water. They don't generate the same heat. Same with the bulbs I can't see it. My six bulb tek is much cooler then my 150 mh

Sorry, this is simply wrong. Any equipment you purchase will convert it's watts to heat.

Let's say you have 5 pieces of submerged equipment. All use 500 watts of electricity and all are constantly on. Let's say they are a skimmer, return pump, lights, flow pumps and a heater. It doesn't matter what job they perform each will end up converting their work to 500 watts of heat. The light will convert to heat. The flow of the water from the pump will convert to heat etc.

The only variables are if a piece of gear dissipates the heat inside the tank our outside it.

James77
03/16/2011, 08:16 AM
Not a chance. And heater is designed to heat and a pump is to move water. They don't generate the same heat. Same with the bulbs I can't see it. My six bulb tek is much cooler then my 150 mh

If both the heater and a pump are drawing 100 watts from the wall then, yes, they do generate the same heat.

The heater is putting 100% of that energy into the water directly as heat. The pump is converting some energy into water movemnet. However, energy cannot be destroyed....so I ask you where that water movement energy goes from there? It goes back to heat through friction. It does not magically disappear.

Same with the T5s that convert more of their energy to light than halides. The energy just does not disappear after that....the light will be absorbed back into something as heat.

Throw your tek into a sealed box, and same with your 150w halide. I can absolutely guarantee you that if they are the same wattage, they will heat the box exactly the same.

sirreal63
03/16/2011, 08:30 AM
I am always amazed how such a simple concept eludes otherwise very bright people.

Another simple analogy...3-100 watt heaters vs 1-300 watt heater. The 300 watt heater will get hotter to the touch, but both scenarios will add 300 watts of heat to the water.

JustinM
03/16/2011, 08:44 AM
You guys really crack me up. I believe that sirreal has the best way of putting it though. There is not much more to it.

goofball310
03/16/2011, 10:10 AM
a 40, 50, 60, 70, 500, 1000000 watt pump will not add as much heat as a comparable heater because of one simple fact....... their conductive material. Glass and metal used on heaters are great conductors of heat, whereas plastic is not. the wattage used within a plastic pump will create heat at whatever wattage is consumes but the heat will dissipate a bit before reaching the outside of the casing and coming in contact with the water.

BTW... sirreal really put this all in layman's terms for everyone to really understand.

nanojg
03/16/2011, 10:16 AM
a 40, 50, 60, 70, 500, 1000000 watt pump will not add as much heat as a comparable heater because of one simple fact....... their conductive material. Glass and metal used on heaters are great conductors of heat, whereas plastic is not. the wattage used within a plastic pump will create heat at whatever wattage is consumes but the heat will dissipate a bit before reaching the outside of the casing and coming in contact with the water.

BTW... sirreal really put this all in layman's terms for everyone to really understand.

So...where will the heat "dissipate"? It has to go somewhere, or does it vanish?

James77
03/16/2011, 10:16 AM
the wattage used within a plastic pump will create heat at whatever wattage is consumes but the heat will dissipate a bit before reaching the outside of the casing and coming in contact with the water.
.

Where will the heat dissipate to? If the pump is underwater, all the heat generated will end up in the water-it has nowhere to go except into the water. It may take a little longer initailly for the heat to reach the water because the plastic insulates/conducts heat less, but the pump will be that much hotter inside because of it.

barjam
03/16/2011, 10:51 AM
a 40, 50, 60, 70, 500, 1000000 watt pump will not add as much heat as a comparable heater because of one simple fact....... their conductive material. Glass and metal used on heaters are great conductors of heat, whereas plastic is not. the wattage used within a plastic pump will create heat at whatever wattage is consumes but the heat will dissipate a bit before reaching the outside of the casing and coming in contact with the water.

BTW... sirreal really put this all in layman's terms for everyone to really understand.

From you description you are talking about submerged pumps and submerged heaters. If that is so then you are incorrect. The conductivity of the material makes no difference in this case.

b16drag
03/16/2011, 11:08 AM
BTW: What are you running on your b16?

My dyno run on low boost (11psi) b18c :)
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4314/dynopull91110.jpg

Yea had a b16 turbo as well! Love the sucker!

<***CLEARS THROAT***>

To the more important topic :hammer:

I think there is a misconception that all wattage drawn from an outlet is converted to "heat". I agree that energy can neither be created or destroyed, but it does get converted from one form to another with "heat" being one of those form.

I think the fat elephant in the room is "efficiency." If the efficiency of the first light is higher than the second light, the first light will be making less "heat" and making more "light".

goofball310
03/16/2011, 11:19 AM
Suppose you have a pan with a rubber handle sit on the stove for a 2hrs @ 200 degrees. In 2hrs time would the rubber handle produce as much heat as the rest of the pan?

I never said all of the heat would be consealed within the pump but some. The cooler temperatures of the surrounding atmosphere (water) around the housing will help to cool the plastic and contain "some" of the heat within the pump. If the air around internals of the pump is cooler than amount of heat that is produces then the pump will actually run cooler internally and the heat will never be felt on the outer casing.

James77
03/16/2011, 11:19 AM
I think there is a misconception that all wattage drawn from an outlet is converted to "heat". I agree that energy can neither be created or destroyed, but it does get converted from one form to another with "heat" being one of those form.

Yes it does get converted, but where does it go once it has been converted? The energy that was converted to water movement by the pump, or the energy that was converted to light by the halides or T5s.....where does that go? The light will strike a surface...like rock in the tank, or the water itself, and will convert to heat. The kinetic energy of the water from the pump will dissipate into the aquarium, hitting other water and objects, creating friction....which turns to....:).

I think the fat elephant in the room is "efficiency." If the efficiency of the first light is higher than the second light, the first light will be making less "heat" and making more "light".

It will make more light per watt, but again, that energy that was converted to light still has to go somewhere. Some will be stored as energy by coral and algae, but most goes right back to heat. A pump may turn out alot more water per watt tha another, but that is still energy that at some point will go back to heat.

b16drag
03/16/2011, 11:21 AM
But in that scenario, the rubber handle isn't producing any heat. The stove is producing the heat. The rubber handle poorly conducts that heat and also have the thermal property to withstand that heat without melting.

b16drag
03/16/2011, 11:29 AM
Yes it does get converted, but where does it go once it has been converted? The energy that was converted to water movement by the pump, or the energy that was converted to light by the halides or T5s.....where does that go? The light will strike a surface...like rock in the tank, or the water itself, and will convert to heat.


It will make more light per watt, but again, that energy that was converted to light still has to go somewhere. Some will be stored as energy by coral and algae, but most goes right back to heat. A pump may turn out alot more water per watt tha another, but that is still energy that at some point will go back to heat.

Not every photon of energy is being converted to "heat". If a rock absorbs all the energy converts it to heat, and does not reflect any light, it would be a hot black rock. If every photon that gets emitted becomes heat, 1) the tank would be equally hot (in T5 and MH) 2) my inhabitants would be all dead because my tank would be too hot 3) my tank would be very dark because all of the light has been converted to "HEAT".

All of the light does not get converted to heat. Sure there are some that are converted to heat. Some of the light will absorbed by corals and tank inhabitants and the energy is converted for their growth. Others will continue to remain as "light" until it can be absorbed and converted over to another form of energy whether it be heat or bouncing off the rods and cones in your eye.

Bottomline, wattage drawn from an outlet does NOT equal heat.

bayoupr
03/16/2011, 11:30 AM
http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/html/watts-heat-lights-lamp-heat-output.html
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/eng99/eng99475.htm Read on

goofball310
03/16/2011, 11:33 AM
But in that scenario, the rubber handle isn't producing any heat. The stove is producing the heat.

So is the plastic casing of the pump the producer of heat or the internals?

The rubber handle poorly conducts that heat and also have the thermal property to withstand that heat without melting.

Is plastic and the air surrounding the pump the best conductor of heat?

goofball310
03/16/2011, 11:37 AM
Once again, I'm not stating that a 100w pump doesn't produce 100w of heat, but rather the 100w of heat generated by the pump is tranferred solely into the tank.

James77
03/16/2011, 11:40 AM
Not every photon of energy is being converted to "heat". If a rock absorbs all the energy converts it to heat, and does not reflect any light, it would be a hot black rock. If every photon that gets emitted becomes heat, 1) the tank would be equally hot (in T5 and MH) 2) my inhabitants would be all dead because my tank would be too hot 3) my tank would be very dark because all of the light has been converted to "HEAT"..



IHow much energy are we talking about going into the tank via light? It of course is not going to be enough to nuke a rock or kill all inhabitants, just as putting a 300w heater on all the time will not. The tank will lose heat to the room over time. 500w of halides( or whatever wattage of T5s that equal that same light, since T5s are more efficient) does not send 500w of energy into the tank, alot is lost through heat you can feel from the bulb. As for #3...the light does not trun to heat the instant it hits the water....it will heat some water as it reaches the bottom of the tank. But it will end up as heat.....but unitl it does it is visible light.


All of the light does not get converted to heat. Sure there are some that are converted to heat. Some of the light will absorbed by corals and tank inhabitants and the energy is converted for their growth. Others will continue to remain as "light" until it can be absorbed and converted over to another form of energy whether it be heat or bouncing off the rods and cones in your eye.

I already stated in my previous post that some- a very tiny- amount of the light will be converted ans stored by coral and algae. And of course some will exit the tank and maybe reach Pluto one day. But at some point it is going to turn to heat.

kmu
03/16/2011, 11:41 AM
I had an ATI sunpower and while it gave a lot more light than similar wattage halide fixtures it didn't direct the heat into the tank like halides, what it did was displace the heat to the side...

James77
03/16/2011, 11:42 AM
Once again, I'm not stating that a 100w pump doesn't produce 100w of heat, but rather the 100w of heat generated by the pump is tranferred solely into the tank.

Where else can it be transferred? Yes, some will be lost to the air after it has heated the water. but whether from the heat from the motor or the friction of the moving water the pump converted, it is all heat going into the aquarium if it is a submerged pump.

b16drag
03/16/2011, 11:50 AM
Very good points James77. I guess I can invariably see that all energy will some how END up becoming heat.

But here is the bummer: I don't care about Pluto or what happens in 3,000 light years later when that energy photon hits an alien eye. The more immediate concern, which one is more efficient at making light and using less energy and making less heat. :P How self-centered are we? We dont care about the aliens! LOL

goofball310
03/16/2011, 11:50 AM
Where else can it be transferred? Yes, some will be lost to the air after it has heated the water. but whether from the heat from the motor or the friction of the moving water the pump converted, it is all heat going into the aquarium if it is a submerged pump.


didn't feel like typing this again...

If the air (enclosed pump) around internals of the pump is cooler than amount of heat that is produces then the pump will actually run cooler internally and the heat will never be felt on the outer plastic casing.

The transfer of heat will be held within the housing and cool before it reaches the outer casing.

James77
03/16/2011, 11:54 AM
http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/html/watts-heat-lights-lamp-heat-output.html
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/eng99/eng99475.htm Read on

Nowhere in that test, where they put the lights i the coolers, did they state what the watttage was from the wall. Then they even state themselves that they have seen 60 watt bulbs draw far more than that. not an accurate test at all. Had the lights been drawing the same power, and that thermometer was guaranteed not to be baking in the direct light, then they would have come to a different result.

James77
03/16/2011, 11:59 AM
Very good points James77. I guess I can invariably see that all energy will some how END up becoming heat.

But here is the bummer: I don't care about Pluto or what happens in 3,000 light years later when that energy photon hits an alien eye. The more immediate concern, which one is more efficient at making light and using less energy and making less heat. :P How self-centered are we? We dont care about the aliens! LOL

Never saw aliens come into play in one of these debates:hmm6: :).

Yes, what ultimately does matter to most is keeping the heat out of their tanks. T5s do use quite a few less watts to make the same light as halides, and even then, have active cooling to get the hot air away from the tank. I think people get thrown off in these debates by the watt-for watt being the same between the two.

Personally...I love any extra heat I can absorb into my tank, the less my heater is on in the 3 cooler seasons.

b16drag
03/16/2011, 11:59 AM
I think the OP question has been answered... If the T5 bulbs are more efficient, they will run cooler than a MH.

James77
03/16/2011, 12:02 PM
didn't feel like typing this again...

If the air (enclosed pump) around internals of the pump is cooler than amount of heat that is produces then the pump will actually run cooler internally and the heat will never be felt on the outer plastic casing.

The transfer of heat will be held within the housing and cool before it reaches the outer casing.

Im sorry, what you are saying makes absolutely no sense to me. The heat cannot be held inside the pump without the temp of the pump skyrocketing.... the act of cooling is transfering the heat (energy) elsewhere. the air inside (if any, I believe its all epoxy surrounding the pump) could only possibly act as an insulator slowing the heat form reaching the water.

James77
03/16/2011, 12:04 PM
I think the OP question has been answered... If the T5 bulbs are more efficient, they will run cooler than a MH.

Yes. A T5 setup almost always uses less watts than a halide setup, because they are more efficient at converting energy to light. So in almost all cases, T5s will produce less heat and heat the water less than a halide setup that puts out similar PAR.

nanojg
03/16/2011, 12:10 PM
I have to disagree. Halides in the correct set up (best bulbs, ballast and reflector) produce at least as much par as T5s in the correct set up (best bulbs, ballast, reflector cooling).

It all boils down to lumens/watt and light reflection and T5s and MHs are similar.

barjam
03/16/2011, 12:44 PM
Yea had a b16 turbo as well! Love the sucker!

<***CLEARS THROAT***>

To the more important topic :hammer:

I think there is a misconception that all wattage drawn from an outlet is converted to "heat". I agree that energy can neither be created or destroyed, but it does get converted from one form to another with "heat" being one of those form.

I think the fat elephant in the room is "efficiency." If the efficiency of the first light is higher than the second light, the first light will be making less "heat" and making more "light".

No, no no and no. 100% of the final output of anything you plug in is heat. End of discussion. Efficiency has no bearing on this it simply does not matter.

Guys, seriously, this is basic 101 physics stuff here.

barjam
03/16/2011, 12:49 PM
Once again, I'm not stating that a 100w pump doesn't produce 100w of heat, but rather the 100w of heat generated by the pump is tranferred solely into the tank.

This is incorrect for submersed pumps.

If you have two one hundred watt pumps (submerged only, external pumps are different) it doesn't matter anything about the material or efficiency or anything related to that. The better insulated pump will just get hotter internally but the heat eventually has to go some where. The heat can't just disappear.

barjam
03/16/2011, 12:57 PM
Yes. A T5 setup almost always uses less watts than a halide setup, because they are more efficient at converting energy to light. So in almost all cases, T5s will produce less heat and heat the water less than a halide setup that puts out similar PAR.

I can get behind this statement. It seems people are generally able to use less T5 than MH to light a tank and *most* T5 setups have better ways to dissipate heat into the room rather than the tank. Large reflectors and more "bulk" are decent heat sinks.

abark
03/16/2011, 01:51 PM
I can get behind this statement. It seems people are generally able to use less T5 than MH to light a tank and *most* T5 setups have better ways to dissipate heat into the room rather than the tank. Large reflectors and more "bulk" are decent heat sinks.

Um, I would disagree with the general statement unless it had a caveat about most hobbyists preferring a 14-20k look. If memory serves then the general trend with MH lighting is that efficiency decreases with increased kelvin temperature. It is the reason you see very few people running 250w 20,000k bulbs, most use 400w. Now, remembering the T5 data I saw I remember little to no drop of PAR when you went from an ATI aquablue to a blue plus. It seems that there is little trade off in efficiency when producing a blue spectrum using T5 technology, but in MH there is a large trade off.

Since reefers tend to prefer a 14-20k look they can get by with less wattage in that range when using T5 over MH. If the goal is to produce the greatest efficiency in the 6500-10k range then I think MH wins the efficiency battle.

nanojg
03/16/2011, 02:06 PM
um, i would disagree with the general statement unless it had a caveat about most hobbyists preferring a 14-20k look. If memory serves then the general trend with mh lighting is that efficiency decreases with increased kelvin temperature. It is the reason you see very few people running 250w 20,000k bulbs, most use 400w. Now, remembering the t5 data i saw i remember little to no drop of par when you went from an ati aquablue to a blue plus. It seems that there is little trade off in efficiency when producing a blue spectrum using t5 technology, but in mh there is a large trade off.

Since reefers tend to prefer a 14-20k look they can get by with less wattage in that range when using t5 over mh. If the goal is to produce the greatest efficiency in the 6500-10k range then i think mh wins the efficiency battle.

+1

barjam
03/16/2011, 02:08 PM
Abark, I agree 100% with you. I was assuming your assertions.

barjam
03/16/2011, 02:38 PM
Not every photon of energy is being converted to "heat". If a rock absorbs all the energy converts it to heat, and does not reflect any light, it would be a hot black rock. If every photon that gets emitted becomes heat, 1) the tank would be equally hot (in T5 and MH) 2) my inhabitants would be all dead because my tank would be too hot 3) my tank would be very dark because all of the light has been converted to "HEAT".

All of the light does not get converted to heat. Sure there are some that are converted to heat. Some of the light will absorbed by corals and tank inhabitants and the energy is converted for their growth. Others will continue to remain as "light" until it can be absorbed and converted over to another form of energy whether it be heat or bouncing off the rods and cones in your eye.

Bottomline, wattage drawn from an outlet does NOT equal heat.

You are 100% incorrect on all your points and it really isn't up for debate so I won't. I suggest that you should brush up on your physics. These are introductory concepts and any first year physics class or intro to physics type book should cover it sufficiently.

iamwrasseman
03/16/2011, 02:42 PM
wow , i should not have posted this question and then went to bed and straight to work . i have a particular tank that had three 175 watt MH lights and two cf actinic lights over it in a pretty enclosed canopy . with this set up his temp was always at approx 78 f then i removed all his lighting " junk" and installed a 5' tek light with 6 T-5s in it with no other changes at all . now his tank is at 82 f and his ambient room temperature is pretty much the same as we are still in winter here in NY . just got me wondering about these bulbs ,yes they are cooler per square inch but they seem to be kicking out some pretty heat overall . i also know there are efficiency differences between the two different types of bulbs but was just wondering what real info there is out there or what people thought and holy mackerel what a divided response !
i appreciate the response however but has anyone switched over and noticed a difference either way . at my house i have many T-5 units and they all seem to be quite cooler ,maybe its the brand "tek light " ?

sirreal63
03/16/2011, 02:58 PM
Dave it all boils down to heat management. I had issues with T5's in an enclosed canopy, more than I did with MH but the canopy was designed differently. Going from a canopy to open top solves many heat issues. Most people who had MH and went to T5 and noticed a drop in temps can be attributed to the lower total wattage or the elimination of the canopy. Lights produce heat, how you manage that heat is what makes the difference. I have bounced back between MH and T5 numerous times, I have had different tanks and situations along the way, I always end up back with MH for growth and color. I may add a couple T5's for supplementation to my existing tank, but I haven't really decided what to do. Both work, both produce heat and both can have the heat managed.

tkeracer619
03/16/2011, 03:07 PM
Guys, seriously, this is basic 101 physics stuff here.

Yup. It is. Glad I was paying attention all those years.

I tossed the pump vs heater into the mix to keep the pot stirred. It worked great!

I forget who said it but it was in one of these discussions long ago...
"I can teach you how this works BUT you will have to forget everything you think you know"

Some don't want to do that and that is absolutely fine/expected.

iamwrasseman
03/16/2011, 03:08 PM
i agree with you and i have to have fully enclosed canopies because of my wrasses .
every other time i installed T-5s it did cool things down IMO , but not this time . going to have to get his chiller on line sooner than later i guess .

bayoupr
03/16/2011, 03:15 PM
I have read this whole thread and now I have "Heat Stress"

sirreal63
03/16/2011, 03:22 PM
I have read this whole thread and now I have "Heat Stress"


I have been reading this topic beat to death for many years, probably the most entertaining and informative one is the one TKE linked to...
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1330449

bayoupr
03/16/2011, 03:32 PM
sirreal63, I read about half of it and now I'm "Over Heated"

iamwrasseman
03/16/2011, 03:34 PM
i just read the first five pages and it seems to me that the MH and T-5s produce close to the same heat per watt if i understood bean animals graph . yes there are differences but overall they are very close in production of heat vs. watts of light energy . the T-5s stay more consistent in light intensity over a longer period of time though .

b16drag
03/16/2011, 03:40 PM
You are 100% incorrect on all your points and it really isn't up for debate so I won't. I suggest that you should brush up on your physics. These are introductory concepts and any first year physics class or intro to physics type book should cover it sufficiently.

Guess you didn't read the rest of the thread. I don't claim to be a physics-jock, and I'm okay with that. :lolspin:

rtparty
03/16/2011, 03:48 PM
i agree with you and i have to have fully enclosed canopies because of my wrasses .
every other time i installed T-5s it did cool things down IMO , but not this time . going to have to get his chiller on line sooner than later i guess .

Are you sure it is the lights?

Could it be a heater problem? The heater's thermo isn't working properly or something? Just an idea.

I will say though that the Tek lights are not very well ventilated IMO. With no fans to cool them or move the heat in a certain direction, it can go anywhere.

I know that heat travels up but it can also travel down before going up. Maybe the Tek light is keeping the heat enclosed better than the original lights?

I don't care to get into the whole heat debate. You can have one guy who has a PhD in Physics say one thing and another will contradict him. I have a local guy who is a physics genius that teaches at the University of Utah and he always argues that not all watts create heat.

So I just don't go there with anyone. My belief is that all watts create heat at some point. You want a colder car or house? You have to create a TON of heat to get cold air.:hammer:

b16drag
03/16/2011, 04:01 PM
What are you talking about rtparty!?!? Everyone on RC has a PhD in something! :)

rtparty
03/16/2011, 04:08 PM
What are you talking about rtparty!?!? Everyone on RC has a PhD in something! :)

It is true! I haven't figured out yet how I snuck into it all.

My PhD is in "making stuff up until someone believes me":eek1:
:lolspin:

nanojg
03/16/2011, 04:21 PM
What are you talking about rtparty!?!? Everyone on RC has a PhD in something! :)

I think those are honorary PhDs given to ourselves :)

abark
03/16/2011, 05:13 PM
i agree with you and i have to have fully enclosed canopies because of my wrasses .
every other time i installed T-5s it did cool things down IMO , but not this time . going to have to get his chiller on line sooner than later i guess .

I currently have 2x250 MH and 4x54 T5 in a canopy over my tank. I can tell you with certainty that if I went all T5 I would have heat issues where I don't have heat issues now. By taking out my halide and adding another 4 bulbs I would effectively create a heat shield over my tank (that is well contained in a canopy). I now use a fan that blows straight down in between the MH that would be rendered useless if I went all T5. In order for it to work I would have to cut holes in my canopy and install fans below the T5's that would create a cross flow.

There is certainly more to consider than just the total wattage over the tank. In my example I would be decreasing the wattage by 234 watts yet I would bet heat would increase inside the tank. Since I have no desire to cut holes in the side of my canopy to test this I will have to leave this as a hypothetical.

For the purposes of lighting discussion assuming a watt is a watt is fine.....just know there is more to the overall system than just that. Especially if you have designed the system for one piece of equipment and the new equipment does not fit well with the old design.

vanished88
03/16/2011, 05:56 PM
Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. It can be converted.


unless you have a nuclear explosion in your tank, but then I think heat would be the least of your worries LoL.

iamwrasseman
03/16/2011, 06:07 PM
rtparty actually the tank has no heater as the person keeps his house at 79 f all the time .
abark ,i do know that a fan really helps out but it has to draw air across the lights as i have done mine that way . one of my canopies has a fan in the top and one 16"x3"hole for air to come in and it does not draw the air across the bulbs and it definatly has a higher internal temp .
i have a 200 gallon sump refuge in my basment and that is what keeps my tanks at a stable temp throughout the year ,design it key for sure

NyReefNoob
03/16/2011, 06:36 PM
ok this is my thought on this, not as much as which produces more heat but in the point a MH will have a higher focal point of heat going onto the top layer of water, heating one spot with a higher heat, as where the heat on t5's is spread clear across the top of the water, so lets say you take 2 heater's in separate buckets of the same temp, both heaters are of the same wattage, but one heater has a much larger surface area, which will heat the bucket up first ? i have never believed t5's produce less heat as i have been using them for almost 5 years now. i will say my ati fixture because of the fans and splash shield and exhuast vents on the fixture have kept my tank coller then other t5's fixtures and retro's i have used

iamwrasseman
03/16/2011, 06:47 PM
thanks noob,theres something to be said about the heat area being larger as it may infuse more heat overall as i have found out with this last installation .

NyReefNoob
03/16/2011, 06:57 PM
before this fixture i ran 2 130 cfm fans on my canopy which moved alot of air to disipate the heat out of the canopy as well as having a large hole cut in the top for the heat to rise out, my ati is inside my canopy now and do have a vent opening on the side the ati outlet vents are and no issue's with it this way, btw if your ever gonna be down in the city or in westchester shoot me a pm and feel free to stop by. i have a couple wrasse's myself ;) and a few big tanks around my area or come to the MR swap next month

iamwrasseman
03/16/2011, 07:12 PM
thanks , i will keep that in mind i appreciate the gesture . good quiet fans are necessary for sure and can make such a difference .