Can Eel's catch fish disease?

[Robka]

I have a Golden Dwarf Moray Eel in a tank with what was 3 Two Bar Chromis and 1 Starry Blenny. All that is left in the tank is one Chromis and my GDM eel. This is my quarantine tank, but I do not want to treat with anything that will harm the eel in any way. As much as I value life the eel cost $250 and the Chromis was $5. If the last fish dies will the disease remain with only a eel as a possible host?

Thanks for your help,

Robka

[Robka]

Also I believe the fish disease to be either Brooklynella or Ich. I would lean towards Brooklynella which I think would take any hypo-salinity treatment out of the equation?

[Sk8r]

Yes, they can catch ich. Unfortunately they are VERY sensitive to copper. The good news is that they have a very thick slime coat and are unlikely to come down with ich. I would continue to observe this fish.

When you say the others are gone---what did they die of, do you know?

If it comes down to treating the eel, first research on the internet. My first choice for treating a delicate fish would be hyposalinity. A google search says eels can tolerate hypo.
Hypo has a bad rep because it is often badly applied. If you are constrained by the appearance of ich spots to do hypo with this fish, get an ATO for that qt tank [cheaper than the eel] and use extra oxygenation, plus a potent pump, changing the filter floss daily.

[Sk8r]

Are you seeing a white film on the skin? This could be brook, or if with bloody lesions, it could be another sort: uronema marinum, which is also parasitic, and is treated the same as ich and brook. Hypo can work on either. Or on ich.
A formalin dip is possible, but has risks.
Copper is out.

[Robka]

Are you seeing a white film on the skin? This could be brook, or if with bloody lesions, it could be another sort: uronema marinum, which is also parasitic, and is treated the same as ich and brook. Hypo can work on either. Or on ich.
A formalin dip is possible, but has risks.
Copper is out.

When I said the fish were gone, I woke up to three dead bodies in the tank & the final non-eel fish not looking well. They had some white dots, but the cloudy eyes and white patches make me think it is Brook? The Eel seems fine at this point and if the eel can withstand the disease, I would rather make this an eel ONLY tank rather than risk killing him with any chemicals. Also, I thought Brook wasn't effected by hypo-salinity treatment?

Thanks again,

Robka

[syrinx]

Eels can harbor ich- but rarely will have issues from it. The only exception I can think of is the gobyoid "eels" and the ribbons. Does the eel appear ill? You said it was only the fish that were sick. If such is the case the thing to do is just keep a eye on the eel in the qt for 4 weeks and then go forward. As far as the chromis- I would find some one else to treat it- make a rubber maid qt for it- or destroy it. Hate to be frank- but I would do no treatments that were not absolutely needed when a eel is involved.

[syrinx]

wow concurent post!

[Robka]

Eels can harbor ich- but rarely will have issues from it. The only exception I can think of is the gobyoid "eels" and the ribbons. Does the eel appear ill? You said it was only the fish that were sick. If such is the case the thing to do is just keep a eye on the eel in the qt for 4 weeks and then go forward. As far as the chromis- I would find some one else to treat it- make a rubber maid qt for it- or destroy it. Hate to be frank- but I would do no treatments that were not absolutely needed when a eel is involved.

Yes the eel seems normal as usual no color changes or spots. He is hanging out in his favorite glass VOSS bottle:) as we speak. I don't think the Chromis would make it even if I found another person willing to treat him,so putting him out of his misery sounds like the best advice.

[Sk8r]

The white patches on the dead fish were probably just the start of decay.
Pity about them. I'd take your chromis if I were closer. But if you can put other fish with the eel ultimately for a 4 week qt and not have them come down with it, you can probably figure not only is he safe, everybody's safe, and you can put them all into your dt without fear. It takes 8 weeks to starve a parasitic infestation out of a tank, and changing the filter floss daily can help do that: any cysts that get into the floss go bye-bye. I use pillow stuffing [polyester] from the hobby store: they sell it in huge sacks for cheap. You can wrap a little carbon in it and use it in a bucket with a maxijet 1200 and get pretty good filtration. Continue to oxygenate.

[Robka]

The white patches on the dead fish were probably just the start of decay.
Pity about them. I'd take your chromis if I were closer. But if you can put other fish with the eel ultimately for a 4 week qt and not have them come down with it, you can probably figure not only is he safe, everybody's safe, and you can put them all into your dt without fear. It takes 8 weeks to starve a parasitic infestation out of a tank, and changing the filter floss daily can help do that: any cysts that get into the floss go bye-bye. I use pillow stuffing [polyester] from the hobby store: they sell it in huge sacks for cheap. You can wrap a little carbon in it and use it in a bucket with a maxijet 1200 and get pretty good filtration. Continue to oxygenate.

So you think I can kill the parasite off if I leave the eel only for 8 weeks and then try to add another fish to see if the parasite has truly died off? I've tried hypo in the past and did not have good luck, so naturally I am afraid to try it on my eel.

Thanks again for your help:)

[Robka]

Along this same subject, has anyone out there lost an eel to a fish disease or successfully treated and healed an eel?

[syrinx]

Oh yes I have healed many. Th best one was a funebris (green) moray that had bad head erosion- all the tissue was gone from the face to the dorsal. I had a system set up that for reasons unknown reversed lateral line- and this guy was perfect in a month. As far as more run of the mill stuff goes- the goby eels get ich big time- so I delt with that. Also eels often get bacterial infections from shipping bag burn. You really have to know what the infection is to deal properly- so I had a aquatic vet to assist with diagnosis. You might look into the university to see if there are such people available where you are. Other than that- just wounds and abrasion/infections from misadventure. All and all eels- once past shipping are pretty free of parasites and illness-not to say they can`t have issues-just much less than fish.

EDIT- I guess I should say- there are losses also of course- although other than escapees- most were shipping related. It is not uncommon to order in a moray and get 1.5- they are kept in vats and often eat one a little smaller and then barf them in the bag in shipping. Occasionally I have seen them go off food as well-don`t recall outcomes.

[Robka]

Oh yes I have healed many. Th best one was a funebris (green) moray that had bad head erosion- all the tissue was gone from the face to the dorsal. I had a system set up that for reasons unknown reversed lateral line- and this guy was perfect in a month. As far as more run of the mill stuff goes- the goby eels get ich big time- so I delt with that. Also eels often get bacterial infections from shipping bag burn. You really have to know what the infection is to deal properly- so I had a aquatic vet to assist with diagnosis. You might look into the university to see if there are such people available where you are. Other than that- just wounds and abrasion/infections from misadventure. All and all eels- once past shipping are pretty free of parasites and illness-not to say they can`t have issues-just much less than fish.

EDIT- I guess I should say- there are losses also of course- although other than escapees- most were shipping related. It is not uncommon to order in a moray and get 1.5- they are kept in vats and often eat one a little smaller and then barf them in the bag in shipping. Occasionally I have seen them go off food as well-don`t recall outcomes.

I have never seen a Goby Eel, is this a different species of eel? Have you ever seen GDM or snowflake Eel show signs of ich or Brook?

[syrinx]

no on the ich on a snowflake. If one in my care ever had it- it would have been in its gillls or mouth. Goby eels are often labeled wolf eels among other names.

[Sk8r]

TO do hypo effectively, note that an ATO in the hypo tank is going to be a big help. Every time you let the salinity swing a .001 of a point, you favor the parasite. If you have a correctly calibrated refractometer and an ATO, and know to start the 4 week count from the time you LAST saw evidence of ich, you're much more likely to have success. Daily changes of the filter medium mean that any ich encysted forms get thrown out, which also helps.

There is a not-too-common strain of marine ich that resists hypo, and that requires a different treatment, but even so, the hypo treatment should buy you time to figure out what you've got.

[Robka]

TO do hypo effectively, note that an ATO in the hypo tank is going to be a big help. Every time you let the salinity swing a .001 of a point, you favor the parasite. If you have a correctly calibrated refractometer and an ATO, and know to start the 4 week count from the time you LAST saw evidence of ich, you're much more likely to have success. Daily changes of the filter medium mean that any ich encysted forms get thrown out, which also helps.

There is a not-too-common strain of marine ich that resists hypo, and that requires a different treatment, but even so, the hypo treatment should buy you time to figure out what you've got.

I appreciate the info, but I am still afraid to try (& fail) hypo for the third time. I was wondering if you ever heard about this fact;

14. INTERESTING FIND: If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has ‘worn itself out’ and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months.

I found this info on this link;

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23132-marine-ich-myths-facts.html

This could answer the question why people with Ich in their tank could find it doesn't return without treatment. I might just let the eel rule the tank for a year and then add treated fish to the tank and see what happens? I wish you could test the water without risking a fishes life, but I didn't see a MI test kit @ my LFS;)

[Robka]

no on the ich on a snowflake. If one in my care ever had it- it would have been in its gillls or mouth. Goby eels are often labeled wolf eels among other names.

OK, I have heard of a Wolf Eel before. They definitely seem like a different species of eel compared to my GDM or a Snowflake.

[Sk8r]

Both paragraphs are interesting: the article references Burgess and Matthews Cryptocaryon Irritans 1994:and states: "3. There is no such thing as a dormant stage for MI. The parasite can’t wait around for another host. It MUST go through its cycle. Dr. Burgess recorded that in the cyst stage, he found the longest existing cyst to last for 60 days before releasing the free-swimming parasites. This is rare but possible.

14. INTERESTING FIND: If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has ‘worn itself out’ and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months."

In other words, genetics would tend to pose a limit through inbreeding? Possibly its method of reproduction means the little telomeres get whacked off the end of its DNA as if it were aging because its reproduction produces a clone of itself? mmmm. Rack that one up as sk8r's own highly amateur guesswork, not actual and reportable fact. Sounds like something a researcher could do a paper over.

[syrinx]

I hold the belief- through no valid science- only experience- that ich does exactly that- to a point. Namely that after a period of time with healthy fish not allowing more than a occasion gill latch, the ich does not reproduce exponetially, rather the opposite. That there is a very low level of ich surviving to keep the genetics there for when there is the oportunity for a "bloom". This is not dissimilar to other animals that live in balance by breeding to the conditions available for survival. It explains why ich pops up in tanks that haven`t had fish added or any outbreaks in 5 yrs plus.

[Sk8r]

This is kind of an interesting idea---and a very limited genepool in the tank for something that has to reproduce within 2 months, and go on reproducing, with an increasing number of the fish developing some sort of resistance to their doing so---the same researcher, Burgess, has a paper indicating indeed there might be some resistance developed---would greatly diminish the number of hosts, while the gene pool was getting increasingly inbred, ergo more recessives coming out. And recessives are usually not the strongest traits to have. So---

Exactly what state of the art is now on the question I'm not sure, or whether Burgess is still at it--94 is a while ago. You'd think people would rush to research this ubiquitous pest, but money for grants goes where the money is, and this is a hobby.

Anyway, I've put out a query to some of our resident biologists to get their take on it, but one thing WOULD semi-logically follow from what Burgess is saying: namely that continually adding fish to your tank is reinforcing the gene pool of any ich in your tank.

There are two jokers in this deck: 1) some fish sources do their own quarantine, which leads some people into a false sense of security about not quarantining---and they'll get slammed the first time they buy from a non-safe source; and 2) some people who lose fish rush to replace them---again, without quarantining, sort of like that Roach Motel commercial: they check in but they don't check out. The dogged hobbyist sends in fish after fish after fish, and keeps losing them. MAYBE he's reinforcing the gene pool so well that he has really viable ich going on: a one year moratorium on new fish---easy for us old hands, but for a newbie over-excited and wanting to try every new fish short of a whale shark---disaster.

One might also suspect that the one place where, if no countermeasures are taken, ich strains could breed at will---is the local fish store.

[snorvich]

This is kind of an interesting idea---and a very limited genepool in the tank for something that has to reproduce within 2 months, and go on reproducing, with an increasing number of the fish developing some sort of resistance to their doing so---the same researcher, Burgess, has a paper indicating indeed there might be some resistance developed---would greatly diminish the number of hosts, while the gene pool was getting increasingly inbred, ergo more recessives coming out. And recessives are usually not the strongest traits to have. So---

Exactly what state of the art is now on the question I'm not sure, or whether Burgess is still at it--94 is a while ago. You'd think people would rush to research this ubiquitous pest, but money for grants goes where the money is, and this is a hobby.

Anyway, I've put out a query to some of our resident biologists to get their take on it, but one thing WOULD semi-logically follow from what Burgess is saying: namely that continually adding fish to your tank is reinforcing the gene pool of any ich in your tank.

There are two jokers in this deck: 1) some fish sources do their own quarantine, which leads some people into a false sense of security about not quarantining---and they'll get slammed the first time they buy from a non-safe source; and 2) some people who lose fish rush to replace them---again, without quarantining, sort of like that Roach Motel commercial: they check in but they don't check out. The dogged hobbyist sends in fish after fish after fish, and keeps losing them. MAYBE he's reinforcing the gene pool so well that he has really viable ich going on: a one year moratorium on new fish---easy for us old hands, but for a newbie over-excited and wanting to try every new fish short of a whale shark---disaster.

One might also suspect that the one place where, if no countermeasures are taken, ich strains could breed at will---is the local fish store.

This discussion and specifically this post is one of the best I have seen on Reef Central. I personally rarely introduce fish (no room, no deaths) and do believe the fewer fish introduced, even with a proper quarantine process in place, the better. I do not know about ich and eels so cannot offer much in that area but I think that hypo, carefully controlled, is the best way to go.

I do know that some fish develop resistance to ich after multiple exposures to it. I don't think we know why or at least I have not seen a scientifically based explanation.

[Robka]

[QUOTE=Sk8r;18530315]This is kind of an interesting idea---and a very limited genepool in the tank for something that has to reproduce within 2 months, and go on reproducing, with an increasing number of the fish developing some sort of resistance to their doing so---the same researcher, Burgess, has a paper indicating indeed there might be some resistance developed---would greatly diminish the number of hosts, while the gene pool was getting increasingly inbred, ergo more recessives coming out. And recessives are usually not the strongest traits to have. So---

Exactly what state of the art is now on the question I'm not sure, or whether Burgess is still at it--94 is a while ago. You'd think people would rush to research this ubiquitous pest, but money for grants goes where the money is, and this is a hobby.

Well count me in for a case study. The last Chromis did not make it through the night:thumbdown and now the GDM eel is the sole survivor of the tank. He seems to be acting normal. If I decide to treat, I was wondering exactly how you use the "Transfer method"? I have another QT set up (20gal) with a healthy Red Tail Trigger that is ready to hit the main tank. So I would have two tanks to work with besides my MT.

Thanks,

Robka

[snorvich]

I hold the belief- through no valid science- only experience- that ich does exactly that- to a point. Namely that after a period of time with healthy fish not allowing more than a occasion gill latch, the ich does not reproduce exponetially, rather the opposite. That there is a very low level of ich surviving to keep the genetics there for when there is the oportunity for a "bloom". This is not dissimilar to other animals that live in balance by breeding to the conditions available for survival. It explains why ich pops up in tanks that haven`t had fish added or any outbreaks in 5 yrs plus.

That makes a whole lot of sense. We see this in the ocean all of the time with the population of "consumers" rise and fall with the population of "their food supply". Look at nudibranch populations in small areas: when their food supply is abundant, they reproduce like crazy and when their food supply shrinks, the population dies off. Remember that nudibranchs, just like cryptocaryon irritans have a very specific single source of food.

[snorvich]

By the way, if you want to do a search on the most scientific sources, try using google scholar. The paper cited above by Sk8r is Cryptocaryon irritans(Ciliophora): acquired protective immunity in the thick-lipped mullet,Chelon labrosus

Burgess P. J. and Matthews R. A.

The abstract states: Acquired protection to Cryptocaryon irritans has been demonstrated for the first time, using the grey mullet, Chelon labrosus, as an experimental host. Fish, immunized by controlled infections, established immunity against challenge infections with C. irritans, the degree of protection correlating with both intensity and exposure levels, with relatively few fish developing full protection. Protection lasted for six months in the absence of re-exposure to the parasite. There was no evidence of cross-protection in mullet against infection with the closely related fish parasite, Ichthyophthirius multifiliis.

This suggests that what aquarists see is some fish acquiring immunity, while others do not with repeated exposure. Unfortunately, without treatment, some percentage of the fish population will perish which is not so good for aquarists.

[Robka]

If I decide to treat, I was wondering exactly how you use the "Transfer method"? I have another QT set up (20gal) with a healthy Red Tail Trigger that is ready to hit the main tank. So I would have two tanks to work with besides my MT.

Someone out there must have tried the "Transfer Method"? How is it performed? Also, is it only effective on MI or does it work on Brook or any other parasites?

Thanks:spin3:

[snorvich]

The theory behind the tank transfer method is to move a fish from one tank to the other when the parasites fall off the fish. As such the parasites that fall off do not have the ability to complete the life cycle and re-attach. Since the first tank is a QT tank, simply drain it, clean it, and reestablish it for the next tank transfer. This depletes and eventually eliminates the parasites available to reattach and as a consequence will create a parasite free fish. This is not without stress to the fish but it is in some ways better than copper and just as effective as either copper or hyposalinity.

[Robka]

The theory behind the tank transfer method is to move a fish from one tank to the other when the parasites fall off the fish. As such the parasites that fall off do not have the ability to complete the life cycle and re-attach. Since the first tank is a QT tank, simply drain it, clean it, and reestablish it for the next tank transfer. This depletes and eventually eliminates the parasites available to reattach and as a consequence will create a parasite free fish. This is not without stress to the fish but it is in some ways better than copper and just as effective as either copper or hyposalinity.

Do you know if the "Transfer Method" works on other parasites or is it only effective for treating MI?

[snorvich]

Do you know if the "Transfer Method" works on other parasites or is it only effective for treating MI?

As far as I know, ONLY on MI. Brook and oodininium require much different treatment.

[syrinx]

Eels tend to practice the transfer method naturally- although they usually transfer to the floor! I personally would just observe at this point.

[Sk8r]

Not forgetting the OP's actual question, or as Cicero said it back BC, "Back to my goats, please!"
---The OP does not trust hypo, after experience. There would then be the transfer method ---and I would say, using the "toss the floss" method I recommend would help a lot here, switching daily between two tanks, each one cleaned to the nth degree, and using floss that might snag any released ich, for export to the trash can. This would thin out the population, giving the eel a chance to develop immunity to a mild infestation.

By what we've been discussing, every ich swimmer that heads back to the fish must implant within 12 hours or die; and I'm convinced that the swimmers don't target like a cruise missile---that they rely on pure chance to land somewhere they can implant, like the gills. This fish has a slime coat par excellence. So the gills are about it. And with high oxygenation and a rarification of ich swimmers going on, few are going to be able to reinfest. Ergo the eel, if it can, would have a chance to become immune to that little gene pool, at least---in absence of evidence, and with apologies to Dr. Burgess, let's take the position that MAYBE immunity to the local ich genepool might be a surer bet than immunity to all ich everywhere. IE, every genetic heritage might have its unique chemical signature, and maybe that's one reason immunity fails to extend to all fish. Hence the wisdom of qt'ing every addition to this hobbyist's future tank, and being sure no new strains of ich are ever introduced...just in case.

One useful thing, I'm hoping that the eel's famous slime coat will be as effective as a mandarin's at avoiding this stuff. You really have to work at bad water to give a mandy ich, though I've seen it done. First thing you have to do to infect the fish is destroy the slime coat---so I would urge the OP to do everything he can to protect that slime coat, including during handling. I leave it to an experienced eel owner to figure out the best mode of transfer to another tank, but I would tend to believe that a bucket of adequate size might be the best, as in not touching the fish or exposing its skin to air. Those CD buckets could help, for a very small one, or a skinny Brita pitcher.

[snorvich]

---The OP does not trust hypo, after experience. There would then be the transfer method ---and I would say, using the "toss the floss" method I recommend would help a lot here, switching daily between two tanks, each one cleaned to the nth degree, and using floss that might snag any released ich, for export to the trash can. This would thin out the population, giving the eel a chance to develop immunity to a mild infestation.


I agree. This method would also work exceptionally well for fish BUT remember this is stressful for the animal being transfered. I would think, as Sk8r mentions that avoiding net usage would be optimal. I never use nets and always use tupperware containers or my hands.

[Robka]

I agree. This method would also work exceptionally well for fish BUT remember this is stressful for the animal being transfered. I would think, as Sk8r mentions that avoiding net usage would be optimal. I never use nets and always use tupperware containers or my hands.

Thanks for the advice. I always use large specimen containers or acrylic traps when transferring livestock. Nets are only for herding:spin2:

Here is a picture of my GDM Eel:)

[syrinx]

The problem with the transfer method here is the fact its stressing a animal that has been exposed to parasites- but showing no signs of distress. The biggest risk in transfer is abrading the skin- no matter what the container. Generally a plastic bag is safest- adn whatever it is has to have a tight fitting lid for the actual transfer. Eels are just as fast swimming backwards as forwards- and same goes for out of water. My feeling remains that the likelyhood of injuring the eel and causing a secondary bacterial infection is more risk than I would be willing to take on a animal that does not appear to have parasites, only exposure.

[Robka]

The problem with the transfer method here is the fact its stressing a animal that has been exposed to parasites- but showing no signs of distress. The biggest risk in transfer is abrading the skin- no matter what the container. Generally a plastic bag is safest- adn whatever it is has to have a tight fitting lid for the actual transfer. Eels are just as fast swimming backwards as forwards- and same goes for out of water. My feeling remains that the likelyhood of injuring the eel and causing a secondary bacterial infection is more risk than I would be willing to take on a animal that does not appear to have parasites, only exposure.

I am getting worried as today he began scratching his head.:thumbdown He doesn't show any external signs, but I am afraid their attacking his gills. What is the quickest least risky method to help him?

[syrinx]

I do like sk8rs idea of the floss in a power filter as a no harm way to perhaps help. I am also a big believer in having UV steriliser with eels,sharks and rays.

EDIT-this was not a answer to the above post, which was concurrent.

[Sk8r]

This from Greenbean, who's an expert in marine biology: I posed the queries in Invertebrates, if you'd like to follow it.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18535208#post18535208

The general opinion from GB is that Burgess' results could not be replicated, and the mechanism for ich reproduction is not well understood. So Burgess, while apparently about the only research we can yet find, is not accepted by the scientific community. Seems as if there's a big wide research project waiting out there for someone with a high frustration tolerance and a grant.

GB's general advice seems to be: quarantine, quarantine, quarantine.

[Sk8r]

Re setting up a floss filter: do it as a pot filter with a Maxijet 1200 or equivalent in the bottom of a small bucket, with floss atop. I use poly pillow stuffing from the hobby store: they sell that stuff in man-sized sacks, for not terribly much, which is way ahead of paying huge amounts for silkier dedicated-aquarium floss that, ime, does not trap and hold particulate as efficiently.

[syrinx]

I still would do nothing at this point other than keep pristeen water conditions, and feeding. Morays very rarely carry ich, so I really don`t think that is your prolem- if there is one. Crypt has a hard time with the slime on the moray due to its toxic nature. The blood chemistry of morays is also diffrent than the other fishes. I think you need to do some long hard study on the physiology of these animals, so you understand where I am comming from when I say what I do. Obviously there could be other issues at play- there has been no diagnosis- but if crypt is the selected issue- I would not be worried.

[Robka]

Re setting up a floss filter: do it as a pot filter with a Maxijet 1200 or equivalent in the bottom of a small bucket, with floss atop. I use poly pillow stuffing from the hobby store: they sell that stuff in man-sized sacks, for not terribly much, which is way ahead of paying huge amounts for silkier dedicated-aquarium floss that, ime, does not trap and hold particulate as efficiently.

I have a Magnum 350 pro & small protein skimmer on this QT tank. I can definitely put floss filter in the canister.

[Robka]

I still would do nothing at this point other than keep pristeen water conditions, and feeding. Morays very rarely carry ich, so I really don`t think that is your prolem- if there is one. Crypt has a hard time with the slime on the moray due to its toxic nature. The blood chemistry of morays is also diffrent than the other fishes. I think you need to do some long hard study on the physiology of these animals, so you understand where I am comming from when I say what I do. Obviously there could be other issues at play- there has been no diagnosis- but if crypt is the selected issue- I would not be worried.

For now I did a 20% water change and lowered SG from 1.025 to 1.023. I froze one of the fish that died and I am debating about whether or not to buy a microscope so I can truly diagnose this disease. I own Edwad Noga's "Fish Disease diagosis and treatment 2nd edition, so if I had a microscope, I could probably come up with a positive id. Since the water change I have not observed any head scratches.

Thanks again for all your help, I really want to keep this eel healthy, he is beautiful and has lots of character:spin1:

[LukFox]

Eels do NOT handle hypo well ime!!! I lost a perfectly healthy 5 year old golden dwarf to hypo, and my Brazilian dragon moray also was severely stressed by the hypo and did not feed at all during treatment. He eventually regained his appetite weeks after hypo ended, but the dwarf was ruined. I kept an eye on water parameters and every other fish in the tank handled hypo just fine. Hypo was also successful in ridding the tank of ich, but I will never hypo eels again.

[syrinx]

The micro scope thing is fun- I used to keep one around- but the kids took it years ago. Basically it is most likely the chromis etc died of crypt or ooidum both pretty much non issues for the eel. One thing to bear in mind- without a necropsy, just finding ich or velvet really is still acedemic- you don`t know if that is secondary to another stress that allowed them to catch it. Internal parisite loads in chromis can be quite high, gill burn from shipping, as well as bacterial infections are not uncommon either. All these things and more can open the fish up to being finished off by parasites.

[syrinx]

Eels do NOT handle hypo well ime!!! I lost a perfectly healthy 5 year old golden dwarf to hypo, and my Brazilian dragon moray also was severely stressed by the hypo and did not feed at all during treatment. He eventually regained his appetite weeks after hypo ended, but the dwarf was ruined. I kept an eye on water parameters and every other fish in the tank handled hypo just fine. Hypo was also successful in ridding the tank of ich, but I will never hypo eels again.

I too would be hesitant to use hypo as well. While eels tolarate fresh water dips well (as long as a hour,although 20 mins is usually more than enough) I have heard reports of secondary bacterial infections resulting from prolonged lowered SG. I haven`t experienced this myself though- as I havent hypoed morays myself. Freshwater dips, formalin dips are about the extent of what I consider safe for morays that are thought to have ich.

[Robka]

Eels do NOT handle hypo well ime!!! I lost a perfectly healthy 5 year old golden dwarf to hypo, and my Brazilian dragon moray also was severely stressed by the hypo and did not feed at all during treatment. He eventually regained his appetite weeks after hypo ended, but the dwarf was ruined. I kept an eye on water parameters and every other fish in the tank handled hypo just fine. Hypo was also successful in ridding the tank of ich, but I will never hypo eels again.

Thanks so much for the advice, I will raise SG back up to 1.025 tomorrow. I really tried to vacum the whole tank when I did the water change and changed filter floss, so I should have removed a lot of those tiny parasites. So have you treated any GDM Eels successfully? What would you recommend I do next? By the way your Eel avatar is awesome looking:spin1:

[LukFox]

I've heard of a lot of success with cupramine with eels (even with gold dwarfs), but have never personally used it. My experience with hypo really scared me about treating eels, so I've just been giving them eel-only tanks ever since so in the case they were carrying anything, there would be nothing to infect. I would use cupramine or the transfer method if I had to treat an eel, though.

[Robka]

I've heard of a lot of success with cupramine with eels (even with gold dwarfs), but have never personally used it. My experience with hypo really scared me about treating eels, so I've just been giving them eel-only tanks ever since so in the case they were carrying anything, there would be nothing to infect. I would use cupramine or the transfer method if I had to treat an eel, though.

Thanks again, I appreciate your eel knowledge:) This is my second eel, my first was a Snowflake and I never lost him. I had to give him away when I moved. This is a 40Gal QT, so I could probably make this an eel only tank as I have another 20gal QT set up in the basement. Could I add another GDM as they only get 12 inches long?

[syrinx]

yikes- nothing containing copper of any kind. You have to remember that these are not fish- and are not susceptable to ich and velvet. They have thick toxic mucus,thick scaleless skin, and a diffrent blood chemistry that makes them far less susceptible to loss from these parasites. The only people that will recommend copper for eels are people selling it, and people that don`t understand parasites when they relate to eels (and rays). No offense intended luk-I really want the original poster to study from the experts rather than rush into something that may do more harm than good. Several reputable experts advise waiting at least 4 weeks after suspecting ich to even think about doing a dip- that stress is worse than the possibility of a rare infestation having occured.

[LukFox]

yikes- nothing containing copper of any kind. Y

I realize eels are normally very sensititve to copper, no doubt. Cupramine is supposed to be much easier on them and I've read several accounts from other eel keepers of success with eels and cupramine. I would not use any other form of copper.

Robka, that would make a good tank for a couple GDMs.

[Robka]

I realize eels are normally very sensititve to copper, no doubt. Cupramine is supposed to be much easier on them and I've read several accounts from other eel keepers of success with eels and cupramine. I would not use any other form of copper.

Robka, that would make a good tank for a couple GDMs.

I think for now I will do some daily water changes and if he doesn't get any better than I will try the transfer method.

Thanks again:)

[snorvich]

Remember to transfer first thing in the morning as the parasites drop during darkness.

[Sk8r]

Snorvich, will you be so kind as to add that info, and a whole section on the transfer method, to the how to treat sticky at the top? That's valuable to know, and I never heard that.

[Robka]

Remember to transfer first thing in the morning as the parasites drop during darkness.

The light cycle on the tank is 1:00 PM to 1:00 AM, so what time should I initiate the transfer?

Thanks again

[LukFox]

VERY good to know, Steve.

[snorvich]

The light cycle on the tank is 1:00 PM to 1:00 AM, so what time should I initiate the transfer?

Thanks again

In the morning, ideally before the tank is lit either by lights or natural room light. (before parasite activity) This is because of an interesting observation I found in my investigations concerning the biology of Cryptocaryon irritans. Mature trophonts leave the host and tomites exit the theront/cyst in the dark (Yoshinaga & Dickerson, 1994)

[snorvich]

Snorvich, will you be so kind as to add that info, and a whole section on the transfer method, to the how to treat sticky at the top? That's valuable to know, and I never heard that.

Sure. However, I am NOT an eel person having no experience with them in aquaria despite having much experience with them in the ocean.

[Sk8r]

Me either, but if you have a creature that reacts badly to copper and hypo, you've got one other med, Prazipro, which may not work; or Metronidazole---which is hard on all fishes, or you've got the least invasive, which is the daily move. I'm not sure I agree that skilled catch-and-move is harder on the fish than copper. For my own fish I'd do most anything BUT medicate: for a fish, dosage, particularly of copper, is critical, and without an ATO on that tank, the dosage is going to vary all over the map, via evaporation. So I think it's important to include this as an option.

[snorvich]

Since everyone in this thread seems interested, some more information about marine ich. Cryptocaryon irritans has demonstrated a very low level of host specificity, meaning it will infect just about any teleost fish in a tropical marine environment. Cartilaginous fishes (sharks and rays) appear resistant, but everything else is susceptible to infection (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). It has even been proven to infect various species of freshwater fish that were acclimated to saltwater, as well as temperate marine fish that were kept at the upper limit of their thermal range (Yoshinaga & Dickerson, 1994; Burgess & Matthews, 1995).

Even though they are all possible hosts, experience has shown that there are definitely certain fish groups with higher and lower degrees of susceptibility. At one end of the spectrum are the eels that have shown a general resistance to Cryptocaryon irritans. On the opposite side are the surgeonfishes, with the Blue Regal/Hippo Tang (Paracanthurus hepatus) the "crowned king of Ich." I would also place the cowfish, boxfish, and pufferfish fairly high on the susceptibility list. Generally, everything else falls somewhere in the middle.

Concerning taxonomy, Cryptocaryon is currently still a monotypic genus (meaning there is only one species in this genus). Although, there is research to suggest that there may actually be several distinct species. There are at least various isolates from different geographic regions; even if their differences are not substantial enough to warrant designating separate species (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). There seem to be marked increases in Cryptocaryon irritans outbreaks and mortalities when mixing fish from the Caribbean with those of the Indo-Pacific. It is possible that this higher incidence in problems could be the result of fish that have evolved a limited immunity against their native variety coming into contact with an unfamiliar strain of parasite. There may be other geographical subspecies but no study that I know of has been done.

[snorvich]

Hope all this information is not overwhelming. I have been studying this particular issue for a while although I do not consider myself an expert.

[snorvich]

I'm not sure I agree that skilled catch-and-move is harder on the fish than copper.

Me neither. I hope noone heard me take that position. I personally feel skilled catch is better than hypo or copper. It is critical to keep the proper concentration of copper and the proper specific gravity with hypo.

[syrinx]

I agree that in this case transfer is better than copper or hypo. My only point on eels and the tranfer method is that they are a diffrent ball of wax when it comes to getting them from point a to point b- which can result in misadventure injuries to the skin and open them up for infection. One has to be extra careful- this being a dwarf species makes it easier than a 6 foot green for example. I will always stress though- until a eel has shown definate signs of ich- no treatment should be risked.

[snorvich]

I agree that in this case transfer is better than copper or hypo. My only point on eels and the tranfer method is that they are a diffrent ball of wax when it comes to getting them from point a to point b- which can result in misadventure injuries to the skin and open them up for infection. One has to be extra careful- this being a dwarf species makes it easier than a 6 foot green for example. I will always stress though- until a eel has shown definate signs of ich- no treatment should be risked.

I totally agree. Your expertise with eels greatly exceeds my nonexistent experience.

:fish2:

[syrinx]

This is the fine case where a ich person and a eel person can fill in the gaps for each other-

EDIT- I too don`t consider myself a expert, the wife asked me that today in fact. My response was I am a pro aquarist- but there is just too much to know unless you are going to specialise on a minor area- which I am unwilling to do.

[snorvich]

This is the fine case where a ich person and a eel person can fill in the gaps for each other-

Absolutely. I learned a lot on this thread thanks to your input. My best days are when I learn something on here.

EDIT- I too don`t consider myself a expert, the wife asked me that today in fact. My response was I am a pro aquarist- but there is just too much to know unless you are going to specialise on a minor area- which I am unwilling to do.

The field is simply too broad. One can be a knowledgeable generalist but there will always be total gaps about which we/I know little to nothing.

[Robka]

I totally agree. Your expertise with eels greatly exceeds my nonexistent experience.

:fish2:

Thanks to all that have contributed to this thread. I certainly have learned a lot and my GDM Eel would like to thank you as wll:spin3: The good news is that my eel is still behaving normally (most of the time), but every once in a while he looks to be trying to scratch his head. He hasn't eaten in a couple of days, but he usually gets hungry every third day, so he will probably feed today. I am going to maintain premium water quality & observe for now. If my eel refuses to feed for an extended period or looks to be bothered by any parasite then I will try the transfer method. I hope that whatever killed the fish in my tank was MI, because if it is Brook or some other disease, I'm not sure if the transfer method will be successful?

[Sk8r]

I love your photo of him. Such a cheerful looking eel. Long may he thrive.

[Robka]

I love your photo of him. Such a cheerful looking eel. Long may he thrive.

It does always look like he has a grin:p I will try to get some footage of him feeding tonight. I love watching him attack his feeding stick:thumbsup:

[Robka]

My GDM hasn't eaten for 4 days now, but he is still acting normal (except occasional head shake) & has good coloring. I was adding a new supplement to his shrimp/scallop/squid chunks for the last 4 days, so maybe he doesn't like the taste of it? I will soak his next meal in my normal supplement of choice:)

[syrinx]

I seldom fed mine on a daily basis- I would feed every few days. Not to say that its the right way to do it- but what I have seen of many is they like to eat a big meal and chill. The dwarfs and peg tooth eels I would feed smaller meals- but still a couple days apart. Its not uncommon for them to take a week or two off food as well-as long as they are in good body weight its not a problem.

[Robka]

I seldom fed mine on a daily basis- I would feed every few days. Not to say that its the right way to do it- but what I have seen of many is they like to eat a big meal and chill. The dwarfs and peg tooth eels I would feed smaller meals- but still a couple days apart. Its not uncommon for them to take a week or two off food as well-as long as they are in good body weight its not a problem.

When there were fish in the tank I could tell when he was hungry by the way he reacted when I fed them (usually every 3rd or 4th day),but now that all the fish are gone I will have to ask him to give me another sign when he is hungry

:wave: Maybe he was eating too much when the fish were around because of the fish frenzy/Pavlov's dog effect?

Thanks again for the advice

[rubensito]

as for the eel's head shake, did that ever go away? I've only seen that in eels during situations of less than perfect water quality (high nitrates or ammonia spike, etc)

[Robka]

My GDM eel is doing well but will still shake his head once in awhile. He recently went a month between feedings, but usually he eats once a week.