My freaking powder blue

[IMM3DOORSDOWN]

Just added 4 tangs to a tank.powder,yellow,yellow eye kole and a hippo.they all got together.because I qt together and I introduced to main tank together.it has only been a day and my favorite of them all, the powder swims the front and loves the attention.I just introduced a fire goby to the tank and the tang hates it's guts.he's always chasing him.now my problem I have other fish in the qt tank and don't want to have them die cause of stress cause of the powder.I really don't want to dig out the powderblue.and put him in back into qt.then dump all my other fish into main tank.then i run the risk of all my tangs picking on the powder blue when I introduce him back into main tank.




Of all the tangs being a bully I never heard of a powder blue being one.I was worried the yellow eye Cole cause I have seen alot of post of people and the experiance with the fish.



Any suggestions on what I can do.

[IMM3DOORSDOWN]

Also if I dig the powder blue out I run the risk of stressing him out to get ick.

[vorm]

Why not take the fire goby out instead?

[IMM3DOORSDOWN]

The problem now he won't come out of the rock work.i also have another one in the qt. AlOng with 2 angels,2 clowns,6 line and a manderin.

[ayef12]

Powder Blues are very aggresive! I had a powder blue for a number of years & I couldn't add any other tang during that time, period!!! He was worth it, but he definitely was a bully.

[Gary Majchrzak]

Powder Blue should be the last fish introduced but will always remain the bully no matter what.

regarding the powder,yellow,yellow eye kole and a hippo combo, this requires a 180 gallon aquarium at the very least IMO

[Megatrev62]

I really find that fish over the years (I 've never kept one) is very difficult with alot of meaningless deaths. Most hobbyists try them(love their colors etc) but in reality they just die in their tanks. I think this is a fish that should only be sold to those with extreme experience. The consensus with this fish is it should stay in the ocean.

[IMM3DOORSDOWN]

Powder Blue should be the last fish introduced but will always remain the bully no matter what.

regarding the powder,yellow,yellow eye kole and a hippo combo, this requires a 180 gallon aquarium at the very least IMO

All ready in the works.going for a 210 gal

[Whisperer]

I never had a powder blue. I have a powder brown and a scopas for over 3 years (both came from Petco, on sale). Anyway, those two always chase any newcomer but they settle down after a day or two.

[geaux xman]

i think the consensus is PBT is the ich magnet king and the #2 bully of tangs second to only the Sohal.

[sasharotty]

Thats why i will never have a brown or blue again.Tons of personality and imo one of the best looking tangs but the negatives (ick being #1) outweigh the postives.I did intro a pbt last into a 180, qt'd him for 45 days.Everything was a-ok, put him in the dt and automatically was the tank bully.7 days later he had ick.Ugggg:hammer:

[Megatrev62]

i think the consensus is PBT is the ich magnet king and the #2 bully of tangs second to only the Sohal.

Yes that's the consensus. I would say more die than end up bullies in someones tank. So why bother.

[reefmaster47]

Just a thought on your second post. Stress alone wont cause ich, the parasite must also be present. If it is not present no amount of stress will cause any fish to get ich.

[pmrossetti]

So how come I see so many healthy pb's in totm and in many tank pics?

[MelloW33]

IME, Powder Blues have never been worth the hassle. Though I've never had one die on me, the pros just didn't outweigh the cons. Beautiful fish that can cause many many headaches like the one you're experiencing.


Just a thought on your second post. Stress alone wont cause ich, the parasite must also be present. If it is not present no amount of stress will cause any fish to get ich.

Stress can indirectly cause ick by weakening the immune system and making the fish more vulnerable to the parasite that many reefers believe is always in our system.

[mcoomer]

I suspect that if you leave the goby in place the PB will become accustomed to its presence and tolerate it. I have a feeling you're going to have more trouble with those angels unless they're pygmy angels. The only thing I've ever seen that could out compete a PB is a Sohal, and that simply raises another set of problems for your other fish.

Mike

[pmrossetti]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijacf9NXP_0&feature=email

[Chris27]

A powder blue tang is not the worst, they are actually nice fish provided the tank is large enough, the rockwork is open, and you feed them properly. Generally speaking, Clown tangs, Scopas tangs, and Sohal tangs are far worse fish in a multiple fish environment....but even those are tolerable.

Tangs can get aggressive to newly added fish, but it almost always subsides after a few days, unless it's another tang.

FWIW, Crypt, aka marine ich, doesn't just magically appear on a fish when it's stressed. It rears it's ugly head simply because the livestock wasn't QT'd properly, and the tank never underwent a fallow period of sufficient length to allow the parasite life-cycle to stop.

I don't care how experienced a reefer is, the ones that believe Crypt is always present in a system are flat out wrong. The parasite has a lifecycle, and if you take the proper precautions, the lifecycle can be stopped, thus eradicating it from the tank.

To the OP - don't sweat it just yet - the PBT should calm down in a day or two and never bother with the goby again. It's really just playing top dog, and once that fact is established, the harassment will stop.

[pmrossetti]

Getting rid of a PB just cause he's chasing a goby. I don't get it. I'd rather have the PB.
oh well.

[kzooreefer]

This is the best article I've seen on ich, comes from the University of Florida. I think it clears up a lot of issues with peoples understanding of ich and comes from a valid source.

From what I read It's almost impossible to get rid of it once it's in your tank. Fish that have been exposed have immunity for up to 6 months but will still be carriers during this time. So the recommendations I've read where people say take out all fish from the display for 6 months so that the parasite goes through all possible lifecycles appears to be spot on. This article goes further and says to remove the substrate which I've not seen recommended before. Also according to this article the dormancy thing is half true, it can lay dormant for up to 6 months if the temperature drops low enough and it becomes active again when the temperature increases. Other parasites cyst stages can go through years of dormancy even dessication and still be viable but I have seen no studies of marine ich being able to do this. I'm not saying it isn't possible just no one credible has looked at it.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164

[IMM3DOORSDOWN]

1- not choosing the pb over the goby I'll just put him back when I put all of my other qt'd fish back into the mt.

2-as for ich.I don't have it. I have qt'd all my fish.I heard so many people and read numerous posts say how there ich magnets.I qtd tha tangs for over a month and everything looked good.even though I qt everything I run the uv 4 weeks after I put a new fish in the main tank.

3-I'm hoping the pb will calm down and not bother him so much.years ago I had a lunar wrasse and he was the same way a bully fir the first couple days if a new fish entering the system.within days be buddy buddy.time will tell.

4-angels are a flame and coral beauty.I know there won't be problems.there being qt together and will put them into main tank together .believe it or not I have had 5 dwarf angels together and never a problem.

[IMM3DOORSDOWN]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijacf9NXP_0&feature=email

Awesome tank. You know I had a clown tang in qt about a month ago and I got rid if him after reading numerous posts about them being ich magnets and bully's and how hard it is to feed.now I see yours and regret me giving it away.

[Phishguy]

All Tangs are ich magnets.. I'm one of those that believe ich is always present and that stress will cause an outbreak. Think of human immune system. We are carriers for all kinds of bad stuff. Doesnt mean we are all infected. But lack of sleep and stress can cause us to get sick.

[Whisperer]

My powder brown always shows ich everytime I add new fish. I just crush a fresh garlic and soak nori in it overnight and feed in AM. Always works for me. I have him over 3 years now.

[IMM3DOORSDOWN]

All Tangs are ich magnets.. I'm one of those that believe ich is always present and that stress will cause an outbreak. Think of human immune system. We are carriers for all kinds of bad stuff. Doesnt mean we are all infected. But lack of sleep and stress can cause us to get sick.

Just eat some pasta with garlic. Lol

My opinion garlic doesn't cure ich it just helps.

[MrTuskfish]

All Tangs are ich magnets.. I'm one of those that believe ich is always present and that stress will cause an outbreak. Think of human immune system. We are carriers for all kinds of bad stuff. Doesnt mean we are all infected. But lack of sleep and stress can cause us to get sick.

Ich is not a sickness, it is a parasite with a known life cycle. You cannot compare a viral/bacterial disease with a parasite. There is no scientific proof that it always exists. No matter how good my immune system is, it will not fight off parasites, like a wood tick. Apples and Oranges. Anyone who has been diligent about preventing ich from entering his system, from the day of tank set-up, will not have it. I don't, and neither does anyone else who has followed all the established protocol for preventing it.

[steelhead77]

Ich is not a sickness, it is a parasite with a known life cycle. You cannot compare a viral/bacterial disease with a parasite. There is no scientific proof that it always exists. No matter how good my immune system is, it will not fight off parasites, like a wood tick. Apples and Oranges. Anyone who has been diligent about preventing ich from entering his system, from the day of tank set-up, will not have it. I don't, and neither does anyone else who has followed all the established protocol for preventing it.

Really? This site is rife with folks who have followed all the "established protocols" and still wind up with ich despite being super diligent. All tanks are different. To make blanket statements and disregard a ton of anecdotal evidence that does not support your opinion is not helpful to anyone. IMHO, of course.

[MrTuskfish]

Really? This site is rife with folks who have followed all the "established protocols" and still wind up with ich despite being super diligent. All tanks are different. To make blanket statements and disregard a ton of anecdotal evidence that does not support your opinion is not helpful to anyone. IMHO, of course.
And anecdotal evidence, that contradicts all published scientific evidence is helpful? I'll go with the published experts and think folks having problems should as well. Especially in the newcomers section of the forum. IMHO, newcomers should be directed to sources and solutions with accepted track records.

[Chris27]

Short Answer - 75% of the people on here QT improperly

Not the sort of anecdotal evidence that I want to reference when it comes to my livestock.

Example 1

I used copper for 3 weeks, and my fish still has Crypt.
Question - Did you test the concentration daily and ensure that the theraputic level was maintained for those three weeks?
Answer - No, I just dosed what the bottle said.

Example 2

I QT'd my fish for a month, and it got Crypt when it went into the display.
Question - Did you actively treat using copper, hypo or other means?
No - I just watched it and fed it daily.

Example 3

I QT'd my fish using Hypo for 4 weeks, and it still got Crypt after going in the tank.
Question - Did you measure salinity with a calibrated refractometer or salinity monitor?
Answer - No, I used my hydrometer

Example 4

I QT'd my tang for 6 weeks using copper sulfate dosed to a concentration of 0.3 ppm, after it went into the display tank it got Crypt.
Question - Did you QT all the other fish in the tank before adding the tang?
Answer - No, but they never had Crypt before.

[Korrine]

Don't forget anything you add to a tank should be qt'd before added to DT. rock can carry encysted parasite and it's possible to get some when adding snails/corals and stuff too. Everything should be QT'd before it goes in the DT. Problem is not many people want to go to that extreme since we all have busy lives! Non fish items should be isolated for at least 8 weeks before adding to DT. That can be hard if another tank isn't set up and you will need proper lighting for corals/clams etc.

[lacosta28]

Short Answer - 75% of the people on here QT improperly

Not the sort of anecdotal evidence that I want to reference when it comes to my livestock.

Example 2

I QT'd my fish for a month, and it got Crypt when it went into the display.
Question - Did you actively treat using copper, hypo or other means?
No - I just watched it and fed it daily.



So you are suggesting to treat all fish in QT regardless of them showing signs of a parasite or bacteria infection? From what I read the purpose of QT is to monitor the fish and then treat if necessary.

[pmrossetti]

This is the best article I've seen on ich, comes from the University of Florida. I think it clears up a lot of issues with peoples understanding of ich and comes from a valid source.

From what I read It's almost impossible to get rid of it once it's in your tank. Fish that have been exposed have immunity for up to 6 months but will still be carriers during this time. So the recommendations I've read where people say take out all fish from the display for 6 months so that the parasite goes through all possible lifecycles appears to be spot on. This article goes further and says to remove the substrate which I've not seen recommended before. Also according to this article the dormancy thing is half true, it can lay dormant for up to 6 months if the temperature drops low enough and it becomes active again when the temperature increases. Other parasites cyst stages can go through years of dormancy even dessication and still be viable but I have seen no studies of marine ich being able to do this. I'm not saying it isn't possible just no one credible has looked at it.

Dormant for 6months??????? Does that mean that we have to leave the tank fallow for 6 months!!!!!??????:confused:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164

[Korrine]

It says if the temperature drops low enough. I'd raise the DT to 82-83F if you don't have heat issues already and you are letting it run fallow.

[Korrine]

I think I'm going to treat every fish whether it shows signs or not. Reading about Quinine sulfate and another right now.

[MrTuskfish]

Don't forget anything you add to a tank should be qt'd before added to DT. rock can carry encysted parasite and it's possible to get some when adding snails/corals and stuff too. Everything should be QT'd before it goes in the DT. Problem is not many people want to go to that extreme since we all have busy lives! Non fish items should be isolated for at least 8 weeks before adding to DT. That can be hard if another tank isn't set up and you will need proper lighting for corals/clams etc.

Well put, and ( IMO & IME) correct as well. Practices like these will lead to tanks without parasites. It sounds hard; until you have to tear a tank apart to treat fish.


+about a million on THE PACK. I've had the same season seats since I was a soph in H.S. , 1964. We still get back for a few games every year.

[MrTuskfish]

So you are suggesting to treat all fish in QT regardless of them showing signs of a parasite or bacteria infection? From what I read the purpose of QT is to monitor the fish and then treat if necessary.

This is a very controversial question. I treat all new fish (prophylacticly) with Cupramine and a de-wormer while in QT. I have had great success with this method for years. however, because of all the controversy I've never (Or seldom) actually recommended it, especially to newer hobbyists. I'm finally giving in to all the newer hype about quinine sulfate, and this may be the way to go. (I still don't buy the idea that QS kills ich cysts though). BTW, almost every fish you buy has been treated with copper at least once on his trip from the reef to your tank.

[Korrine]

Well put, and ( IMO & IME) correct as well. Practices like these will lead to tanks without parasites. It sounds hard; until you have to tear a tank apart to treat fish.


+about a million on THE PACK. I've had the same season seats since I was a soph in H.S. , 1964. We still get back for a few games every year.

I've never been to a Packer game. Want to some day. I'm still in shock that they won the Super Bowl :eek2::celeb1:!

[Chris27]

So you are suggesting to treat all fish in QT regardless of them showing signs of a parasite or bacteria infection? From what I read the purpose of QT is to monitor the fish and then treat if necessary.

That is what I suggest to most folks.....really because it's a safe bet to say that a fish is in at least one parasite infected tank at some point during the trip from the ocean to the LFS. Treatments are short, and most fish come through it without a glitch, so why not. I have a good batch of nice healthy expensive fish, so you won't catch me throwing any old fish in my tank without absolutely knowing that that's it's clean.

Oh and you guys and your Packers can pound sand....they knocked my Eagles out of the playoffs!

[fishaholic911]

A powder blue tang is not the worst, they are actually nice fish provided the tank is large enough, the rockwork is open, and you feed them properly. Generally speaking, Clown tangs, Scopas tangs, and Sohal tangs are far worse fish in a multiple fish environment....but even those are tolerable.

Tangs can get aggressive to newly added fish, but it almost always subsides after a few days, unless it's another tang.

FWIW, Crypt, aka marine ich, doesn't just magically appear on a fish when it's stressed. It rears it's ugly head simply because the livestock wasn't QT'd properly, and the tank never underwent a fallow period of sufficient length to allow the parasite life-cycle to stop.

I don't care how experienced a reefer is, the ones that believe Crypt is always present in a system are flat out wrong. The parasite has a lifecycle, and if you take the proper precautions, the lifecycle can be stopped, thus eradicating it from the tank.

To the OP - don't sweat it just yet - the PBT should calm down in a day or two and never bother with the goby again. It's really just playing top dog, and once that fact is established, the harassment will stop.



I agree 100 %

[DgenR8]

Really? This site is rife with folks who have followed all the "established protocols" and still wind up with ich despite being super diligent. All tanks are different. To make blanket statements and disregard a ton of anecdotal evidence that does not support your opinion is not helpful to anyone. IMHO, of course.

Did someone mention blanket statements?

[steelhead77]

Did someone mention blanket statements?

How is what I said a "blanket statement"? Go through some recent ich threads. There are quite a few of those experiences posted around here.

A "blanket statment" is when someone says that you MUST remove and qt all fish for a period of 8 weeks at the first sign of ich, otherwise you will never be rid of it in your tank. Or that if you follow "established protocols" you will never have ich in your tank. THOSE are blanket statements that do not take into account all of the variables in other peoples tanks.

[DgenR8]

I do not need to be schooled on the meaning of the term "blanket statement". It does seem that you could benefit some from simply looking more closely at your own posts. Keep in mind that every time you point your finger at someone, three others point right back at yourself.
There's a way to disagree and discuss that others are likely to be receptive to, your combative attitude generates nothing but post reports.
Take a breath, and consider that there's a real live PERSON at the other end of the discussion.

[MrTuskfish]

How is what I said a "blanket statement"? Go through some recent ich threads. There are quite a few of those experiences posted around here.

A "blanket statment" is when someone says that you MUST remove and qt all fish for a period of 8 weeks at the first sign of ich, otherwise you will never be rid of it in your tank. Or that if you follow "established protocols" you will never have ich in your tank. THOSE are blanket statements that do not take into account all of the variables in other peoples tanks.

I'm quite thick skinned and don't report posts; I didn't really know you could report one.
While "protocol" may not have been the right word for me to use (if you look up the definition, it ain't bad, though) I think its obvious that you are not sure what I'm referring to. Yes, there are lots of anecdotal accounts of ich disappearing without treatment; although (IMO) there is a reason somewhere. I have seen very few, if any, statements by hobbyists who followed what I consider "established protocol' and still got ich. I mean using QT, from day one, on anything and everything that has had contact with fish. This includes coral and all inverts, "starter sand" from an existing tank, fish that look healthy at the LFS, etc.(There are some coral outlets that sell "safe" coral) A prime example of what I'm getting at: The biggest LFS within 100 miles of me has "cycled" LR in a big, circulating, pool. The sign next to the pool says ''tank ready". If you peek behind the curtain, behind the pool, and follow the plumbing; it is on the same system that provides filtration for all their fish tanks. Post #29, by Chris27 is great; he says that 75% of the hobbyists who QT, do so incorrectly. I agree, and think it may be higher than that. This isn't being too critical; but this hobby has a tremendous turnover rate and the 75% is going to be heavily weighted toward beginners. Bottom line: if ''established protocol" (I'm starting to love that phrase) includes the sort of rather extreme QT measures I've mentioned, plus many others, ich can (almost always) be eternally banished from a DT. Like everything else on this forum, this is my opinion. However, it is an opinion backed by plenty of scientific evidence from people I consider experts. I will always contend that giving advice; based on anecdotal, rather than scientific, evidence, is certainly not in the best interest of most hobbyists seeking help. While all anecdotal evidence does not come from the people in Chris27's post; plenty of it does.

[DgenR8]

I'm quite thick skinned and don't report posts; I didn't really know you could report one.


If you look at the lower left of any one of the millions of posts at Reef Central, you'll see a red and white triangle with a black exclamation point in it. If you click that triangle, it takes you to a report page.
The staff here is not able to see each of the thousands of new posts this board gets every day, and we count on members to report posts that need our attention.
It's a useful tool to bring our attention to less than useful tools :mtool:

[MrTuskfish]

If you look at the lower left of any one of the millions of posts at Reef Central, you'll see a red and white triangle with a black exclamation point in it. If you click that triangle, it takes you to a report page.
The staff here is not able to see each of the thousands of new posts this board gets every day, and we count on members to report posts that need our attention.
It's a useful tool to bring our attention to less than useful tools :mtool:

Thanks! BTW, your P.C. definition has really made the rounds today---best me and my friends have seen.

[mudnut]

Just a thought on your second post. Stress alone wont cause ich, the parasite must also be present. If it is not present no amount of stress will cause any fish to get ich.

No kidding.... :eek1:

[MrTuskfish]

No kidding.... :eek1:

Its amazing just how many hobbyists really think stress alone can cause ich. This is really 'basic Fishkeeping 101". The number seems to be multiplying like rabbits..

[geaux xman]

Stealhead, show them the picture of your purple tang that you just kept feeding him good and kept the water quality excellent and the purple tang was able to fight it off.

[TrojanScott]

Just stumbled on this thread, I've always found the ich debate fascinating!

From my years in the hobby, and what I've experienced, there are a few things I hold true, at least I DO.

Ich is not present in every system, and can be kept out if you're diligent about it.

Stress helps bring it on, for sure, but is not the root cause. It's like saying cold weather starts a cold, it's just not true.

With that said, I'm an irresponsible reefer who doesn't QT his fish. I don't have another set up to do so, and IMO, a proper one for particular fish entails basically having a second established tank. This hobby is expensive enough.

What I do when buying fish? Have my LFS hold my fish for weeks, and watch it eat, etc. The holding tank is treated with copper. If I run across a store that won't do this for me, I won't shop there. I spend enough over the years at whatever store, so they better.
I'm careful when I buy my fish, and don't rush it.

I've kept quite a few fish for long periods of time, and none being lost to ich. Other reasons? Sure. But not ich.
Just to name a few over the years:
Maroon clown 9 years.
Naso Tang 5 years
Blue tang 8 years
Mandarin goby 3 or 4 years, don't remember

I've also had mini arguments on here with others about not QTing fish, and I've argued that QT can be stressful. Treatments with copper, catching an infected fish, transferring, etc, more stress. I may be wrong here, but that's what I think COULD be the case, and contribute to loss of life.

Now... I'm not blowing ALL smoke, I have had ich, maybe 3 times in my reef career. Blue Tang twice, and I'll be damned if I remember the other. I let him ride it out, and let it run it's course. Fed heavily, garlic, and ginger as well. (threads about this, although I do not think it treats ich... IT DOES NOT) but I do think it may boost immune systems. MAY. Regardless, each time I've done this, the fish fought it off, stronger than ever.

I don't think I've had an ich outbreak in 5 years plus, so I must be doing something right.

Just my .02, for what it's worth!