***HERBIE METHOD - waterfall problems HELP!***

[liz62]

I have just set up the Herbie overflow method and the water is like a vortex going down the main 1 1/2" drain. The water coming over the top teeth of the overflow sounds like a waterfall. The water is dropping about 3"

The return pump I am using is a eheim 3000 compact - at 0 it is about 800gph.
I have this pump t'd to 2 x 1" drains.

Looking at it I think my return pump is not adequate enough?? I have the main drain gate valve almost shut right off and it is still the same effect.

If it is an inadequate pump - what pump should I be buying. There is about 6-7 ft to the return outputs.

[DustinB]

Try closing the gate vale a bit more... I have mine set til the water level in the overflow box is about 1/2" from the backup drain.

[liz62]

If I close it anymore it will be shut right off - I am not kidding.

[DustinB]

How many drains do you have? You are using a gate valve and not a ball valve?

My 90 was running through a 1" thin wall pipe and I had it almost all the way closed with a mag9.5

[Matt Dean]

Hey Liz,

You had figured your return pump was putting out about 500 GPH. Chances are it simply can't keep up. My Red Dragon 6.5 is putting out about 700 to 900 GPH and I still have my valve over half closed.

You may have no choice but to get a stronger return.

[Matt Dean]

I assume you only have one drain at full siphon and one as an emergency, right?

[liz62]

Thanks Matt for replying - How many GPH pump do you think I need?
2 x 1 1/2" drain - 1 main and 1 emerg.
2x 1" returns T'd after the pump and about 6-7 ft up to tank.

[Matt Dean]

I would shoot for 800 to 1000 GPH for an 8ft. Don't get hung up on the numbers in relation to your skimmer, etc. I know you are trying to match it, but you need to stay functional. 100 or 200 more than the skimmer will not be that big a deal. My return is perfect for my 5 foot, so you would be good. Of course, you have a LOT more head loss than I do. My head is only 3 feet at most, so you may want to shoot a little higher.

[liz62]

800-1000pgh pump? My current pump is 800gph
or 800-1000gph output at the returns?

[DustinB]

Your pump is rate to 800gph at 0'. Add in a few feet of head(vertical lift) and that number can drop significantly. You would be looking for a pump rated at 800-1000gph at say 5' or so.

[Matt Dean]

Yes. I meant AFTER head loss, your pump should have 800 to 100 GPH.

Also keep in mind, all pumps are not pressure rated. My red Dragon is no, therefore it will have less pressure at 5' than a pressure rated one. Make sure you clarify those points.

[liz62]

I cannot spend a lot of money so I might be looking at a mag pump - maybe a mag 18? Would the mag 18 work?
FYI I hate mag pumps!

[Matt Dean]

I don't know the Mag pumps, but the specs seem right. It says 1125 @ 6' head.

[liz62]

I think that is what I am going to have to get - for now.
Thanks everyone - thanks Matt!

[DustinB]

I would possibly look at a mag12 or something. The mag 18 is absolutely insane.

[seanm001]

Check out the Ocean Runner pumps from Aqua Medic. I have found they are reliable, quiet, not too power hungry, and reasonably priced. Personally, I run the OR6500 which is rated to 1625 gph and, after head loss due to distance / OM Squirt / Eductors, I've still got my gate valve past halfway closed to balance the flow out.

Personally, to get my Herbie the quietest, I close the valve slooooowly until I have a trickle coming down the emergency drain. Then I back the valve off even more slowly, the tiniest tick at a time, until the trickle turns into drops and then stops. That means I carry my water height in the overflow just below the level of the emergency drain, minizing the distance the water falls and making the whole system ultra quiet.

[jimmyj7090]

1.5" is MASSIVE for a siphion drain. The gate valve should need to be almost completely shut @ 800 gph.

I bet you'd have much better luck downsizing the plumbing on the drain than upsizing the return pump. Just use off the shelf parts to drop all the plumbing above and below the bulkhead down to 1". Then you will be able to tune it for 500-800 gph.

[Indymann99]

+1 on reducing the drain size. I would think with a 1" primary, (your emergency drain CAN be 1.5 in no prob), you could use a Mag 12 that should work with your head height.

Also you set the water level in the overflow by the height of the PRIMARY DRAIN. I have my primary drain about 3in below the weir (teeth) level. I then have the water level set to be about 1.5 above the primary drain level. This keeps the water fall to a efficient but quiet 1.5 inches and leaves 1.5 over the drain to prevent the vortex from sucking air. My emergency drain is 1/4in higher than the weir (should it become blocked for some reason).

My Herbie is dead silent..

[liz62]

A 1" drain isn't very safe - if a snail got caught in it I can't imagine that would be good? I have never put a 1" drain on any aquarium that I have owned for that very reason.

[reefermad619]

Definitly downsize the pipe first. 1.5" pipe with 1' of vertical drop can flow >2500gph. 1" @ 1' will flow >1000GPH. Since this is a siphon, I would close the gate valve all the way then crack it in tiny turns till the water evens out. I've done systems with 1.5" piping with the bean drain and have used pumps that flow <500GPH after headloss and have had no problems. And your sure its a gate valve and not a ball valve?

[XSharkboyX]

Isn't your drain in an overflow box? How is a snail big enough to clog a 1" pipe going to get into your overflow box?

I have set up multiple tanks with 1" drains. One of which has been running for 8 years no problem. If you are worried, you can glue eggcrate on the drain to prevent large things from going in... problem solved...

[Indymann99]

A 1" drain isn't very safe - if a snail got caught in it I can't imagine that would be good? I have never put a 1" drain on any aquarium that I have owned for that very reason.

Thats why the Herbie and Bean designs have a separate FAILSAFE / EMERGENCY drain that is always dry in normal operation... snail / other blocks the primary drain, water raises up then goes down the failsafe drain = no water on floor. :beer:

[liz62]

Ok let's say I don't want to change the pipe - what internal pump would you recommend that is not too noisy, and good on hydro?

[stingythingy45]

A 1" drain isn't very safe - if a snail got caught in it I can't imagine that would be good? I have never put a 1" drain on any aquarium that I have owned for that very reason.

This is why you cover the overflow.
+5 on downsizing to 1 inch drain/s

[reefermad619]

If you don't want to change your pipe size, you'll need to figure out roughly how much flow your drain is producing. If your drain has at least 1 ft of vertical drop, you need a pump that produces >2500GPH after headloss. Chances are they will be noisy no matter what. That's a lot of flow.

[jimmyj7090]

Seems like we're engineering this backwards...

How much flow do you want going through the tank/sump? Build it around that.

Don't adjust the flow to match the drain, match the drain to the flow. It's not at all hard to reduce the size of the pipe.