still no ammonia?

[Netofficer3710]

my 60 gal saltwater tank is about one week old and houses 75 LBS of live rock picked up at the local fish shop, a talbot damsel, an arrow crab, a emerald crab (hitchhiker), various hitchhiker snails, a bristle worm, a tiny hitchhiker hermit crab, a tube worm of some sort, and various other small hitchhikers.

why is it that after almost a week my ammonia readings are still zero? (API test kit)

[evsalty]

If that rock was well cycled and did not expirience very much if any die off then you could already have enough bacteria to process the tiny amount of ammonia that those guys will produce. Key word there was could lol. Have you tested your nitrIte and nitrAte levels?

[Playerdrm]

With the 75lbs of live rock you might not experince an amonia spike if there wasn't much die off from the lfs to your house.

[TellyFish]

As evsalty mentioned, what are you nitrite/nitrates at? I would expect ammonia to show up within a week, but it is possible it already occurred and you didn't detect it.

[Netofficer3710]

the day after I added my first 20 LBS of liverock my nitrates shot up to 40 PPM overnight

I have not tested anything but ammonia since

when I purchased it the rock was taken from the tanks and placed directly into 5 gal buckets of water for the ride home (fully submerged)

I will test nitrites and nitrates after class tonight

[TellyFish]

Basically, you didn't set up a new aquarium. You transferred good live rock from one tank into another, so I would not be too surprised to see a minimal cycle.

[Angel*Fish]

Let's hope you don't have ammonia if you're stocking the tank. Keep feeding your pets. If nitrite and ammonia stay at zero for a week while the nitrate levels keep rising then you are "cycled" and won't see an ammonia spike.

The usual way to export nitrate is water changes. Nitrate is not good for your live stock - you should keep levels as close to zero as possible.

[Netofficer3710]

ok, I have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 80 nitrates, and a ph between 7.8 & 8.0 on the chart my salinity is at 1.025

where do I go from here?

I suspect a massive water change is in order?
how do I get my PH up?

do these readings mean my tank is indeed cycled?

[Angel*Fish]

Lol - 80, I guess it worked ;) And yes you are cycled.

Yes, water changes.
Do you know about maintaining alkalinity? When your alk is low, you add buffer or baking soda to get it up and this usually keeps your pH in line. Alkalinity will always be going down and you'll be adding buffer. (When you start dripping kalk or other Ca then things change about all that)

Don't add live stock until the nitrates are down. :)

[Netofficer3710]

I set the tank up with well water and was later told that I may have nitrate issues.
all of my water changes will be with RO/DI water (I got a filter) so lets hope it changes

[Netofficer3710]

I have seen chemicals that are sold to raise or lower the PH, are these ok to use for this?

[Angel*Fish]

You want to control it through measuring alkalinity and adding baking soda or buffer. If that doesn't do it then you need to find out what's causing the problem. I wouldn't be looking for a quick fix except in an emergency or something.

[Netofficer3710]

is there anywhere I can find some sort of chart that says how much I need to change X amount of gallons X amount of PH points? also can this be added directly to the tank?

[Angel*Fish]

Probably, but you might as well spring for an alkalinity test, because testing for alk is now going to be a big part of your life. or maybe get the LFS to do it for free. :D

[Netofficer3710]

an alkalinity test is the same thing as a PH test is it not?

I already have one or I would not already know what my PH is.

I am having issues finding ANY useful information about how to get my PH where I want it.

I understand I need a buffer or baking soda but how do I know how much to use?

I keep finding info that says 1 tablespoon of baking soda per 5 gallons but this does not tell me how much this will actually raise my PH! one tablespoon per 5 gallons to raise it how many points on the scale?

This is proving to be a very confusing subject because it is very difficult to tell how much to use of any one particular substance to get my PH in the range I want it in.

[Angel*Fish]

Alkalinity is not the same measurement as pH. Usually if you keep alk stable it will keep pH stable and in a good range. You know how much buffer to use by measuring your alk.

If alk was low I'd add about one tablespoon to my 140 g system, then check the alk the next day. If that wasn't enough, I add some more until it gets to the correct range for alk.

This might be helpful http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

[bertoni]

The pH level of a cycled tank is determined by the alkalinity level ("acid neutralization capacity" is a more intuitive term, and by the amount of carbon dioxide in the tank. Some additives help raise pH by consuming carbon dioxide, but aeration will bring the pH back down over time.

[Angel*Fish]

The pH level of a cycled tank is determined by the alkalinity level ("acid neutralization capacity" is a more intuitive term, and by the amount of carbon dioxide in the tank. Some additives help raise pH by consuming carbon dioxide, but aeration will bring the pH back down over time.Very nice explanation :)

And "acid neutralization capacity" is more intuitive than:
Alkalinity in a marine aquarium is simply a measure of the amount of acid (H⁺) required to reduce the pH to about 4.5, where all bicarbonate is converted into carbonic acid as follows: HCO3^- + H⁺ � H₂CO3 (Randy Holmes Farley)

[karsseboom]

ph test kit is not the same test kit used for alk. you need an alk/dkh test kit to see what your alk is. If your alk is low then your ph is gonna be low so when your bring up your alk then your ph will follow. They go hand in hand, as for your tank you should have not added any fish until your tank fully cycle that is a BIG PROBLEM. At 80 nitrates your gonna want to bring that down to 20 or zero in most cases. you need to research more before you go buy a bunch of live stock or your gonna fail at the hobby.

[geaux xman]

80ppm nitrate is pretty high for the minimal amount of livestock you have in such a short period of time.... I imagine it wouldnt have been no more than 20-40.

[Netofficer3710]

well I did a 25% water change tonight and the color is still in the 80 ppm range on the chart (it's between 160 and 40)I do not currently have the resources to do a water change as large as I need to until sunday (I need another 44 gallon brute trash can for saltwater mixing)should I continue to do 25% water changes daily until then? (3, 5 gal buckets)

I just noticed new algae growth on some of the previously bare live rocks.

I also have not seen the tube worm that hitch hiked into my tank in 3 days
would nitrates have killed him or made him hide?

[bertoni]

The nitrate level won't harm the worm, but there could be other decay byproducts that are a problem. It might have moved to a better spot or the like, too.

[Netofficer3710]

welll I have 44 gallons of saltwater mixed up to change tonight and I may do another 44 tommorrow.

if my parameters look good after that I will be getting a new Yellow Tang monday!

[Angel*Fish]

Well, personally I wouldn't. For one thing tangs are kind of sensitive -putting them in young tanks can be on the wrong side of caution. Also tangs generally are not beginner fish and are very prone to ich. And I believe the minimum tank size recommendation is 100g. I believe you need to ensure a high level of oxygnation with tangs - something a protein skimmer can help with.

Skip down to Myth #15 - this helps explain why it's better to hold off on more sensitive fish for a few months http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-01/eb/index.php

[Scott B]

welll I have 44 gallons of saltwater mixed up to change tonight and I may do another 44 tommorrow.

if my parameters look good after that I will be getting a new Yellow Tang monday!

I dont mean to be rude, but... you are obviously on the forum here to learn about the hobby... why are you people putting fish in your tanks so early on??? it is posted all over the forum here that your tank needs to cycle before you add fish!!! Even if your fish do live, you will have put them at great discomfort during that time. i am no expert, but i would say a minimum of 3 to 4 weeks are needed to acomplish this and sometimes even more, just sayin' ...

[Angel*Fish]

If he still has zero nitrites and ammonia with nitrates continuing to go up, he's cycled. He started out with rock from an established tank.

[Scott B]

If he still has zero nitrites and ammonia with nitrates continuing to go up, he's cycled. He started out with rock from an established tank.

I understand that, but he has had livestock in there from day one it sounds like!

[Angel*Fish]

Actually I got that from a later post - they did come from the LFS, but apparently traveled home in buckets of water (?). Anyway it's done and over with now.

[Netofficer3710]

There are reasons for my madness!

First of all the guy at the local fish store pointed one thing out that made a lot of sense to me. he said "everyone will tell you something different that you MUST do and while they all may be correct methods, there is no one correct way to do it."

I transported all of my live rock in buckets of water from the local fish store, most of the things living in my tank got there this way.

I only added 2 things (a damsel and a arrow crab), I did this because SOME people do recommend cycling with hardy fish and being familiar with freshwater I know it is common for that to be done so I went that route.

I started my 60 gallon tank out with 20 LBS of live rock and 75 LBS of live sand on day 1, day 3 I added 55 LBS more live rock, the damsel, and the arrow crab.

as of today my tank is indeed cycled and my nitrates are high. I am about to do a 44 gallon water change and I will most likely mix up anothern 44 gallon batch for tommorrow.

my tank is showing a noticeable amount of algae growth on the rocks that did not come from the LFS with coraline algae but I attribute this to the nitrate problem I am about to correct with 2 large water changes.

I am running 2 1400 gallon per hour powerheads and a skimmer as well as 800 gallons per hour of filtration between my HOB and canister filters.

I am fairly confident I have good clean water in my tank with proper filtration and aeration.

BTW my damsel and crab are both doing great in this tank.

[duncantse]

You shouldn't have added any livestock while cycling your tank but everyone had made mistakes before, including me. I'm glad that your cycle is finished and your damsel is healthy. All you gotta do now is to do large water changes to bring down the nitrates.

Good luck with your tank!

[Angel*Fish]

I transported all of my live rock in buckets of water from the local fish store, most of the things living in my tank got there this way.

Clearly it worked and since you never had ammonia, technically you didn't cycle with a fish. It's the same thing as when you upgrade to a bigger tank - you put the rock in buckets with water and move it to the new tank. - there can be a small ammonia spike, but nothing like what we normally refer to as a cycle.

[duncantse]

Just out of curiosity, what damsel did you get?

[Netofficer3710]

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/199048_542933576692_209102637_31872822_6237065_n.jpg
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/189460_542933586672_209102637_31872823_7667633_n.jpg
here are the main two residents of my tank
the damsel is a Talbot Damsel
the crab I did not realize only has one claw. I saw this once I got him home but I hold out hope that he will regrow his claw through molting in the future. He appears to do well with just the one and spends all day crawling across the rocks stuffing his face.

[duncantse]

LOL! that crab looks like a spider.

[Netofficer3710]

that's why I wanted him lol
he is the coolest invert I have ever come across

[Netofficer3710]

I did a 44 gal water change and the nitrates are now 20 PPM
I will be doing another water change tomorrow so I should get it below 10 PPM

the elevated nitrates could have had something to do with my well water I set the tank up with. I have since purchased a RO/DI filter.

[Netofficer3710]

I will not be getting a yellow tang tomorrow due to my low end PH
what would be a good starter reef fish aside from damsels?
I plan on getting a shrimp or two tomorrow and possibly another fish.