HELP!!! Is it Paly Toxin or Amquel.

[glenns]

My fish and a bunch of Proto Paly covered rock are in QT. I used Amquel last night to help with elevated Ammonia and Nitrites. Today I was changing water and have to siphon by mouth. I did not get an water in my mouth. But after draining 10G and filling 5 and starting on the next 5, when I noticed my lips were stinging an a strange bitter taste was building in my mouth. It stinging spread to the back of my throat. So I stopped and washed my hands & lips and flushed out by mouth. The taste is still kind of there, especially if I try to drink anything. But it is diminishing. A bunch of palys are closed because the raccoon is finally nipping at them.

So is it toxin from the palys or from adding amquel yesterday?

[drummereef]

Um... go to the doctor! :hmm4: If it is palytoxin, it's nothing to mess around with.

[highhopes592003]

Howdy, I wouldnt mess around with it. Give your doc at least a call. This is no lie. i went a got my dream reef tank. It was filled with every coral imaginable as far as softies goes and a blue ridge and acro. We got everything home and situated. Me and my husband both felt alittle ill that night but nothing bad bad. It was just strange because it hit us at the exact same time. there was this smell throughout the whole house, we just took it as that was the way they smelled and dealt with it. It took another day to get enough rodi water to set up the tank and we just kept getting alittle sicker. Then we had to move the corals into the aquarium from the stock tank. They had water fow and heaters. We wore gloves. We got the corals into the tank but not quite arranged right so thought wed let the clodiness settle over night and finish it in the morning. We no longer stepped off the ladder from getting the corals in the tank and we where both getting sicker by the minute. I was sicker than sick by morning. The sneezing started first, then my throat started feeling like it was closing off with the awful metal kind of taste. It was real labored breathing and Im talking hard to breathe, then this choking thick slime I kept trying to choke up. It was bad. My husband came home from work the next morning and said he was going to arrange the corals. I came unglued beggin him not to mess with them. I told him they was what was making us sick. He wasnt convinced all the way and did wear gloves and even tied a tshirt around his face because I was throwing a.fit. Needless to say he was sick like I was when I put the corals in the tank. By midnight I was paralyzed literally - like I could here talking but couldnt speak. I kept letting out these long currdling moans that was uncontrolable. I couldnt make it stop. I do remember getting out I was dying and Ron called my mom. She called poison control and they where useless saying nothing in corals could do anything like this to us. I woke up about 2am and look over and my dog is shaking uncontrolably, she tried to get up and walked like she was drunk. I couldnt even talk to get help for her. I litterally slept for 3 days, only up to go to the restroom or roll over to choke on the slime that was so thick itd cut your breathing off. My mom called agian to check on us thru the night and told ron to open the doors n windows and cover the tank with a thick blanket. That must of done the trick cause by 11 am I was awake and feeling alittle better. A fella came clear from kentucky to get the corals out for us cause I knew if we had to mess with them one more time they would kill us and if I was gona do it they was goin to the burn pile. Recovering from them was slow and I still feel it in my throat a week later. I just dont want you going thru what I did is all. I siphoned with a hose some of the water out and I did get it in my mouth and sure that didnt help the situation any. My husband and I should of went to the hospital but this hospital has got to be the most useless place imaginable and knew they wouldnt be one lick of help. All I know if your having any of these signs Id get to a hospital thats good. If wed known we was gona get that sick wed of drove to riverside to get medical help. It was just too late before we knew what was happening. It was really stupid of us. All 4 of my dogs where sick too so it had to almost have been airborn id think cause thier not even allowed in this room. Sorry I go on n on dont I. Just dont wait until its too late is all cause I really thought I was dying.

[James404]

http://www.feministe.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/WALL_OF_TEXT.jpg

[iap]

^ lol.. I started to read and started to think it had to be a joke with its length. Was there a joke at the end? I didn't get thru it all.

[glenns]

Thanks for the helpful replies. These things have made me sick before, but I've never had these symptoms. The taste and numbness is gone. No fever and BP & pulse are normal. So hopefully I'm in the clear.
As for future water changes, I'm going to use a pump to get the water out next time.

These things days are numbered anyway. I have new dry rock curing in my DT now. Once it is ready, I'm going to kill the remaining rock with Palys now in my QT

[Dono]

if it was palytoxix, wouldnt you pretty much be dead? I thought this was a toxin that can kill pretty quickly?

There is bacteria in your tank that can make you sick, but I was under the impression palytoxin is was more serious that a bad taste in your mouth and feeling like poopie.

[greenbean36191]

if it was palytoxix, wouldnt you pretty much be dead? I thought this was a toxin that can kill pretty quickly?
No. The concern about PTX, especially with zoanthids, is not at all proportional to the risk it poses. We're talking about the most common corals in the hobby (zoanthids, leathers, GSP), which almost every single hobbyist has handled multiple times, most of whom have no idea they should treat these corals cautiously, yet there is only 1 medically documented case of life-threatening palytoxicosis from handling corals (a guy fragged Parazoanthus with about 50x the PTX conc. measured in any other zoanthids, while he had cuts on his fingers!). There are only a handful of human deaths from PTX and all are from people who actually ate fish or crabs tainted with it. Even in cases of people eating tainted food, they almost always recover. As long as you don't make a habit of eating your livestock (this is literally what it would take to get the estimated deadly dose of PTX from most zoanthids) you're not at risk for much more than numbness, tingling, fatigue, and cramps- not fun, but you're not likely to die. It's fairly easy to avoid even that though since the toxin is only released when the corals are damaged and the toxin has to enter the body through broken skin or mucous membranes.

[glenns]

I've read Paly Toxin can be very dangerous if you ingest or get enough into your blood stream. The amount of toxin in a polyp seems to vary on the species.

I've worked in my tank many times. But the only times I get ill is when I'm messing around with the palys. Now I wasn't doing anything to them yesterday, but It looks like the Raccoon was nipping them. I don't know if the strange taste and stinging was from the palys or using amquel in the water the day before. I'm just glad it appears to have been nothing major.

[Sk8r]

Start a siphon by thumbing shut one end of the hose and dipping it to fill it sufficiently. Pipetting or mouth-siphoning potential toxins is not a good thing.
Or, of course, use the pump.

[nl146]

I'm hearing these stories more often. Hopefully everybody feels better soon. An alternative to sucking on the hose to create a siphon is to completely fill the hose with water, cover both ends (with fingers) so that no water gets out, put one end in the tank with the other end still covered, then release the other end into the container you're draining into.

Two ways you can fill the hose: First you could submerge it completely into a bucket of water making sure there's no air pocket in the hose, or second you could loop the hose, hold both ends in one hand and slowly pour water into either end.

[ir_danno22]

could have been an allergic reaction to the water or something in it. my wife's hands get itchy when she thins out the chaeto. i got contact dermatitis on the inside of my finger from not wearing gloves while moving things around. it went away eventually.


http://www.cdc.gov/biosafety/publications/bmbl5/BMBL5_sect_VIII_g.pdf

Palytoxin is lethal by several parenteral routes, but is about 200-fold less toxic if administered to the alimentary tract (oral or rectal) compared with intravenous administration.40

[paraletho]

Listen to Greenbean. In my 3 yrs here I have come to learn if he says it is so It Is. Just exercise reasonable caution when fragging.

[dianezoo]

Never start a siphon by mouth. The easiest way is to put one end of the siphon hose over or near the opening of a water pump outlet. (I havent tried it on the Korillia yet) but it fills the hose and your ready to go.
These are good reads just to remind us that in some people the toxins build up more than others, you may not be affected then the next time it causes some irritation.
Glad these experiences turned out ok.