Help! Large ich outbreak

[c0nspire]

Help, please, with my problem:
I just got back from an out of town trip and my in-laws where taking care of our 180g tank. About have the tank has ich; porcupine puffer, kleins butterfly, lipstick tank, and bi color angel.
The lionfish, maroon clown, foxface, green chromis, and lawnmower blenny appear fine.
Im about to do about 90g of water change, but i dont have anything large enough to QT all the live stock that is affected. Is it safe to hypo-salinity the whole system?

Size of tank:180g

Age of tank 2 months
Sump: 50g, fuge/return/skimmer section
Skimmer: diy skimmer
nitrate: 10-20 ppm
ammonia: 0
temperature: 84deg
Water source Tap with Prime
Salinity:1.023
Alkalinity:
Lights total 900w MH
Calcium:
Magnesium:
Dosing?[ None

i did the basic test (ph, nitrate, ammonia, nitrite) cant test the others if i need to, pretty sure my nutrafin master kit does all of them.

Thank you!

[bertoni]

I think that a 90g water change might do more harm than good. Is there some problem with the tank other than the ich?

If there are no corals, snails, or other invertebrates, you might be able to do hyposalinity without losing much, but there could be a lot of bristleworms and other animals that will die and rot, which could be an issue.

I'd look into a large tub for use as a hyposalinity tank, or to hold the live rock. You'll need some sort of filter for the fish, like a hang-on or something similar. If you separate the live rock (and sand) and the fish, you could try Cupramine, which might kill the ich more quickly.

[geaux xman]

why do you have your temp at 84? thats high...

any snails or inverts?

[c0nspire]

no snails, there is a cleaner shrimp.
corals include torch coral and brain coral.


Its going to be quite difficult to catch the fish in question, but I can if thats what it comes down to. I can use the 20G rubber maid that i use for water changes to hold the fish, I have a fluval 305 that i dont use, it was form my 50g before i switched over to a sump setup.

Im not sure why the temp was at 84, faulty heater perhaps. It's kept at 80 otherwise.

No other problems with the tank asides from plenty of film algae on the glass, tested the phosphates, it was 0.25 ppm, the chaeto in the sump is thriving though.

[bertoni]

I'd get a bio-wheel or similar filter going, and make plans to separate the live rock, corals, and shrimp from the fish.

[c0nspire]

i have a whisper 10, but its probably too small (rated for 10g, which is was my QT is) the rubbermaid holds just over 20g

try to do my best to get them into a rubbermaid so i can treat with copper and then throw out the rubbermaid afterwards...

[Madjamey]

84 ? Tap w/ prime ? Nitrate 10-20 ppm ? Age of tank 2 months ? All these together may be the cause for the stress and ich outbreak ! Water change w/ ro/di ,lower your temp to 76-78 , and hope this young tank pulls through.

[c0nspire]

im still saving for an ro/di kit. The 180g is 2 months, i moved 3/4 of the fish frommy 50g which had been running for 2 years. fish time ich outbreak for me.

[bertoni]

The tub can be wiped with some vinegar to clean it, if you'd like to keep it for future use. I agree that the Whisper filter sounds too small. :(

[c0nspire]

what size filter should i be looking to aquire? any reason the fluval 305 wont work? what am i looking to run? just pads to remove debris, and then carbon when im finished treating with copper?

[lisafoster]

I don''t know if such a heavily stocked 2 month old tank could handle a 90 gallon water change. You need a much larger than 20 gallon hospital tank for all those fish. If you put all those fish together in such a small area they will be way to stressed to survive treatment. I would either pull all the fish get a much larger ospital tank and treat the fish or just hope your tank pulls through. I believe the problem stems from stocking way too fast for a barely cycled tank you do not have enugh bacteria built up to handle all the waste from the fish, tap water hight temps, high phosphate and I am sure higher than 10ppm-20ppm nitrates.

[c0nspire]

When i started the 180g i used about 1/4 the sand bed and 70lbs of LR from my 55g tank
I guess i will get 2 or 3 large rubbermaid garbage cans so i can treat my livestock.

[lisafoster]

Can you set up your 55?

[c0nspire]

no, when i broke it down i removed one of the glass panels as it was drilled and i wanted to re drill it so the plumbing when through the bottom of the tank rather than the side.

Ive moved my lipstick tang and porc puffer into one 77l (20g) rubber maid, im gunna get 1 or 2 more today and probably do 3 fish in each.

[Sk8r]

Please check out the stickies in the Fish Disease Forum, newly revamped: these may give you some help.
Wishing you good luck with this situation. I hope you have an ATO. Maintaining hypo without one is a real headache.

[c0nspire]

can i use airstones to circulate water and displace the surface? Ive read that airstones are not recommended because over oxadizing the water will increase the ph

[Sk8r]

An airstone, as I understand it, increases ph by expelling co2 from the water, but this is not necessarily a bad thing. Do note that with a ph shift, ammonium from fish waste converts to ammonia, as in opening a shipping bag---same problem. However, if you use good filtration, and have an ammonia alert on that tank, plus keep the water properly buffered and managed, it should help: if you could set up a strong CFL bulb on a bucket of cheatomorpha with your air pump, and closed-loop the holding tank water back through that, you could create a secondary assist for consumption of nitrates, ammonia, phosphates, and other things plants sop up as they grow. If you're doing hypo, read the instructions in the stickies in the Disease Forum, and particularly note your 4 weeks starts after the last observed spot leaves the fish.

[c0nspire]

i hadnt yet decided on a method, It almost doesnt matter which method i go with, they all require 8 week qt from the dt, and if anything goes back sooner than 8 weeks the ich in the dt wont die and i risk re infection.

The lipstick just died, he got stuck against a power head in the tank, the puffer is in a garbage can, but i might place him in the 10g qt so i can actually see him better, the only other fish that i think will be a concern is my bi color angel, (at this point)

also one of the puffers eye's is very cloudy, solid white, he definatly isnt able to see how of the one eye, and the second eye what looks liek ich/mucus on it.

[c0nspire]

I am almost leaning towards qting my 2 corals and the cleaner shrimp and hypo'ing the main tank. This saves me having to hypo at least 3 seperate tanks, and my 180 g tank has about a 1/2 gallon evap per day.

If i pursue this route is it guarantee'd that all my live rock and the sandbed would once against become dead?

[jcw]

I am almost leaning towards qting my 2 corals and the cleaner shrimp and hypo'ing the main tank. This saves me having to hypo at least 3 seperate tanks, and my 180 g tank has about a 1/2 gallon evap per day.

If i pursue this route is it guarantee'd that all my live rock and the sandbed would once against become dead?

I believe the answer is not necessarily, but hypo will likely kill all the inverts in the DT causing an issue.

[c0nspire]

the corals and the inverts will all be in the qt, its easier for me to accomodate my corals and inverts than it is all my fish. so there wouldnt be any inverts in the dt during hypo

[duncantse]

Try raising your temp to 86 for a few days. It will help get rid of ich on the fish but not in the tank. I have tried it and it works. My tank is a fowlr. Just make sure you remove the corals/cuc. My fowlr tank has been running temp of 84 for 3 months and all my livestock are still thriving. My friend has been running his temp for 84 for 10 years and his 125 gallon fowlr tank is still healthy. Not sure how this will affect reef tanks though.

[c0nspire]

ive read that the marine variety of ich is different from its freshwater counterpart in that it can survive from 50-90 deg so turning up the temperature to try and accelerate its life cycle is actually pointless.

[duncantse]

IME, I tried it and it works. Clownfish is still growing strong after they had ich and I never seen ich pop up again.

[Sk8r]

Be careful of anything that kills sandbed and rock bacteria: it will increase the waste in your system while diminishing the capacity of the system to deal with waste. Rock and a hard place on this.

If it were mine: I'd bite the bullet, buy a tank adequate, and put all fish into it, bare bottom, no rock, no sand, with a plain floss pot-filter [really potent pump in bucket with floss atop, changed daily] and go hypo with them, with the ATO on this tank, leaving the big tank fallow, but all corals and life left in place. Then put the bought-tank on the sale forum and recoup some of your cost. The floss will grab any parasite that falls off the fish and is daily tossed.

OMG, just noticed you're using Prime: USING PRIME WITH CUPRAMINE CONVERTS CUPRAMINE TO A COPPER THAT IS 10X MORE TOXIC,---WARNING!!!!!!!!!! do not use copper in treatment.

[jcw]

the corals and the inverts will all be in the qt, its easier for me to accomodate my corals and inverts than it is all my fish. so there wouldnt be any inverts in the dt during hypo

I was referring to the inverts you can't remove like flatworms, amphipods, copepods, etc. In some tanks, they make up a rather large biomass that may died off.

Not saying hypo in dt can't be done...

[c0nspire]

Be careful of anything that kills sandbed and rock bacteria: it will increase the waste in your system while diminishing the capacity of the system to deal with waste. Rock and a hard place on this.

If it were mine: I'd bite the bullet, buy a tank adequate, and put all fish into it, bare bottom, no rock, no sand, with a plain floss pot-filter [really potent pump in bucket with floss atop, changed daily] and go hypo with them, with the ATO on this tank, leaving the big tank fallow, but all corals and life left in place. Then put the bought-tank on the sale forum and recoup some of your cost. The floss will grab any parasite that falls off the fish and is daily tossed.

OMG, just noticed you're using Prime: USING PRIME WITH CUPRAMINE CONVERTS CUPRAMINE TO A COPPER THAT IS 10X MORE TOXIC,---WARNING!!!!!!!!!! do not use copper in treatment.

i read that on the cupramine faq, about cu2 and cu+

what size tank is aqequate for a dwarf lion (6"), porc puffer (6"), bi color angel, maroon clown, white ribbon eel, fox face (6"), kleins butterfly, lawnmower blenny

as for a filter your suggesting a 5gal bucket full of filter floss with a return pump to the qt tank? the qt tank would then require a bulkhead/overflow

edit, i pulled my porc puffer, lipstick, and bi color before my light cycle started today, and since the light cycle started (hour and a half ago) all of my livestock has been hiding, nothing has come out from the rockwork.

[Sk8r]

lol, no, an 6" diameter child's play bucket, with no metal, or an old CD bulk-buy container [my favorite, and free.,]

[bertoni]

Airstones are fine for aeration. The only issue is the mess that they can make with water spray. I agree that using something like Prime along with a copper treatment is very dangerous.

Doing hyposalinity on the live rock will reduce its filtration capacity, at the least, and the dying invertebrates (worms, etc) could cause an ammonia spike. I would get a bio-wheel filter going, and move the rock to tubs. The live rock pretty much needs only a powerhead and a heater, along with a bit of food now and then. The coralline might die off, though.

[c0nspire]

I know the LR doesnt need much, I have about 80 lbs in a rubber maid with a heater and small powerhead in the laundry room, it was extra so i just cleaned it and decided to let it cure.

[bertoni]

Okay, sounds like a good idea to me. :)