An ethical question... Your opinions please...

[~RuSh~]

Most fish keepers feel a certain amount of responsibility towards their fish. Obviously some more than others. Some, flush live fish down the toilet. Some excavate large holes in their yards to accomodate larger aquaria just for their fish. I understand this is a hobby, but even for those who are emotionally unattached (I somewhat include myself in this category) a certain amount of care is dedicated to your fish.

So my question comes upon a situation like this: You've purchased two clownfish. You've provided adequate room for them in the form of a 55g tank. This is your only aquarium, and the clowns are your only fish. You have no room, or money for that matter for another tank. After a year of water labor and nutritional feedings, your clowns have decided that they cannot be housed together. They are constantly at each other lip locking, biting one another, splashing water out of the tank, etc. Each has shredded fins and scrapes on their sides. You decide something needs to be done before one of the two gets seriously injured. What do you do?

Do you return your pet to the pet store? Or do you euthanize your pet?

Perhaps this is going to be a touchy subject so I want to emphasize courtesy and civil words.


Now some of you may wonder - Why in the world would you euthanize him instead of returning him to the pet store? Well the answer is simple. The fish may endure less suffering. It's my belief that the percentage of responsible caring educated fish keepers out there is a very low one. What are the odds that your fish returning to the pet store is adopted by one? Low as well. In that case the most likely scenario is that your former fish suffers a shortened crippled life likely in a small tank, with very poor water quality. Maybe he never gets adopted and lives out the rest of his life in a small pet store tank where he acquires ich, and is kept with other aggressive fish that eventually bully him to death. These scenarios are all very real and not even close to the worst case... I've seen much much worse, as I'm sure many of us have. So instead of submitting him to these terrible things, you euthanize. Peacefully send him on his way without pain or suffering.

Or you take a chance. There is that small percentage of cichlids who are returned to the pet store who are picked up by a long time reefer. Perhaps he is in otherwise good condition with good colors and good vigor, and attracts a keen eye, one with experience and knowledge. And he lives for another 8-10 happy years.... In a 240g with other peaceful fish, or is paired up with a more peaceful mate.

What would you do? Now I know there are other options out there... call up a fellow fish keeper ask him to take your fish, etc, etc... but I want you to choose between these options. Which route would you go with? Why? What are your thoughts and opinions on the matter? Debate. :D

[redsoxfan692]

I would put the one with the most damage into a QT and let both of them heal and then find someone with a larger tank or two different people who would keep them. There are plenty of people who would willingly take on another fish if they have the room and it's a better option than returning it (them) to the LFS.

[Angel*Fish]

I'd put a divider in the tank (like eggcrate), let them heal up and give one to someone in my local reef club.

[stingythingy45]

I wouldn't have your scenario happen in the first place.
As a responsible reef keeper I would have read up on how a large clown and small clown will pair a lot easier than two the same size.:spin3:

[jcw]

Are you tearing down the tank and getting out?

If you can hang in there and put in a little more work, I think the best thing would be what angel fish said. Divider, heal up, and sell them.

The post above is such a waste as it serves no benefit to you at this time. And very condescending. I see similar sized clowns in tanks happy all the time. :thumbdown

[Toddrtrex]

I wouldn't have your scenario happen in the first place.
As a responsible reef keeper I would have read up on how a large clown and small clown will pair a lot easier than two the same size.:spin3:

Where did the OP state that they were purchased at the same size? Pairing clowns isn't just as simple as getting a larger and smaller one -- anyone that has tried to pair maroons can attest to that -- but as a responsible reef keeper I am going to assume that you knew that.

[jcw]

And putting a smilie at the end of it doesn't make it OK. :spin3:

[Angel*Fish]

Where did the OP state that they were purchased at the same size? Pairing clowns isn't just as simple as getting a larger and smaller one -- anyone that has tried to pair maroons can attest to that -- but as a responsible reef keeper I am going to assume that you knew that.+1
I've paired maroons - that was a pita - lol. And for what? Not just one, but two maroon clowns in your tank :lmao:

Fish can reach sexual maturity at a small size. When pairing the easier clowns like ocellaris, putting a small female in with a larger female is not going to work. At least one of the fish has to be a male or juvenile.

[rysher]

my first step is to take them to the lfs, 2nd step is to give it away to the local reef club, 3rd and the last option is to kill it.

when i was younger, i kill ants with a magnifying lens, tape firecrackers on frogs, and many more i cant mention here.

[Ann Marie]

Let me ask this, if you had two kittens or puppies that weren't getting along what would you do?

It amazes when people treat pet fish different than the would a pet cat or dog. I've euthanized fish before but not after doing all that I could to save them. If one of my fish has a chance to survive, I'll fight for him/her. If it's not going to survive, I'll euthanize.

I've seen people bring in fish that have been beaten up and are currently ill to my LFS. They take them and will try and heal them. I've told them they need to put a sign on the tank so that people don't thing they are like that because of them. I've even taken sick fish home to do what I could.

[KafudaFish]

1. I would never have a cat let alone 2.
2. I would re condition the two dogs.

3. I would divide the tank and allow the fish to heal and find a club and offer them to a new member or old.

4. I would not kill a fish just because but I have killed many fish over the years due to scientific collection so it would not bother me to do so again.

[MrTuskfish]

I wouldn't have your scenario happen in the first place.
As a responsible reef keeper I would have read up on how a large clown and small clown will pair a lot easier than two the same size.:spin3:

If you get two juvis, from the same tank & at the same time, they will almost always turn into a bonded pair.

To the OP: Were these fish in the same tank and about the same size when you bought them? How about size, relative to each other now? How long have they been at war? Is one fish the obvious aggressor? It isn't impossible that these fish are going through sexual maturity and sorting the dominance thing out. This can be a lot nastier than most folks think, nature ain't always pretty. Juvi clowns, especially homegrowns, are often kept in large herds at the lfs and do fine, because they are still sexually immature. Any two mature clowns of the same sex won't tolerate each other. Because one hasn't killed the other yet, it sounds like they COULD get through this. I've even seen clowns act like this prior to their first spawning.

[MrTuskfish]

Where did the OP state that they were purchased at the same size? Pairing clowns isn't just as simple as getting a larger and smaller one -- anyone that has tried to pair maroons can attest to that -- but as a responsible reef keeper I am going to assume that you knew that.

I learned that a long time ago, before I QTd everything. I had a female maroon kill another female maroon while it was still floating in the LFS bag. The pair of Maroons I have now is typical. A big bossy female and a male that won't poop without her permission.Its disgusting. I wonder if I can buy testosterone supplements for fish?

[~RuSh~]

Thank you for all of your responses. I want to apologize first, as I am not posing this as a question of my own, only a theoretical situation. Ironically though, I do have two clowns who so far get along great. I only want a feel for what others think about this particular situation.

To those returning fish to the pet store - What if you lived in an area that only has Chain stores? IE- Petco, Petsmart, etc. Would you still feel assured returning your fish to a place where care is put behind the almighty dollar?

[MrTuskfish]

Thank you for all of your responses. I want to apologize first, as I am not posing this as a question of my own, only a theoretical situation. Ironically though, I do have two clowns who so far get along great. I only want a feel for what others think about this particular situation.

To those returning fish to the pet store - What if you lived in an area that only has Chain stores? IE- Petco, Petsmart, etc. Would you still feel assured returning your fish to a place where care is put behind the almighty dollar?

Why not put this up front? Your honesty doesn't seem to match your "fish ethics". Thanks for wasting my time. BTW, the "almighty dollar makes this hobby possible. From the fish collector, shipper, wholesaler, dealer, equipment mfgs, breeders, etc, etc. Excuse me while I go flush a sick looking fish.

[Ann Marie]

I would try and find someone that would take care of the fish to give it to. If I couldn't then I would keep them seperate in my tank until they were healed, until I could find them a good home.

I believe we have a responsibility to any of the animals that we've taken into our care.

If I lived in an area where I couldn't find someone to care for it properly, then I would offer to ship it to someone that would care for it. I would not kill it because I couldn't look after it properly and I wouldn't take it somewhere I don't think it would be cared for properly either.

[stingythingy45]

Where did the OP state that they were purchased at the same size? Pairing clowns isn't just as simple as getting a larger and smaller one -- anyone that has tried to pair maroons can attest to that -- but as a responsible reef keeper I am going to assume that you knew that.


Whoa.....:confused:
I took it as a hypothetical question.
Not as the OP had this situation happening in the tank.
So I was not laughing or looking to cause any grief to the OP.

[~RuSh~]

Let me ask this, if you had two kittens or puppies that weren't getting along what would you do?

It amazes when people treat pet fish different than the would a pet cat or dog. I've euthanized fish before but not after doing all that I could to save them. If one of my fish has a chance to survive, I'll fight for him/her. If it's not going to survive, I'll euthanize.

I've seen people bring in fish that have been beaten up and are currently ill to my LFS. They take them and will try and heal them. I've told them they need to put a sign on the tank so that people don't thing they are like that because of them. I've even taken sick fish home to do what I could.


Ah, some passion in these words. :)

I don't think this comparison is as equal as you think. When was the last time you saw a kitten kill another kitten in a pet store or a puppy kill another puppy? Or a dead dog lying in a kennel? Doesn't happen. How many dead fish do you see floating in the tanks at the pet store? How many times do you hear stories about how "the people at the pet stores said this would be a good idea". People care less about fish... bottom line. I know we are trying to make the same point here - it's not right that fish are treated that way, but this is how it is. Take a look on youtube and see what people are stocking in their tanks these days. Over-stocked, under-cared. I guess the question is... how much faith do you have in your pet store?

[stingythingy45]

To those returning fish to the pet store - What if you lived in an area that only has Chain stores? IE- Petco, Petsmart, etc. Would you still feel assured returning your fish to a place where care is put behind the almighty dollar?

Hmmmm....I see your point.
BTW I meant no disrespect.It was just a lighthearted comment about "responsible" reef keepers that you mentioned in your post.But,I can see how it could have been taken wrong.

[~RuSh~]

Why not put this up front? Your honesty doesn't seem to match your "fish ethics". Thanks for wasting my time. BTW, the "almighty dollar makes this hobby possible. From the fish collector, shipper, wholesaler, dealer, equipment mfgs, breeders, etc, etc. Excuse me while I go flush a sick looking fish.


I do apologize. You find sharing opinions and debate about a real topic and a real issue in our hobby a waste of time?

I agree, the 'almighty dollar' makes the world go round, but in many cases today especially it seems, the dollar is bottom line, and not education or giving help when needed most.

[~RuSh~]

Whoa.....:confused:
I took it as a hypothetical question.
Not as the OP had this situation happening in the tank.
So I was not laughing or looking to cause any grief to the OP.


Hmmmm....I see your point.
BTW I meant no disrespect.It was just a lighthearted comment about "responsible" reef keepers that you mentioned in your post.But,I can see how it could have been taken wrong.


None taken. :beer:

[DoubleM 10]

well i honsestly only return fish to the store if they are far to aggressive for their tankmates. that in my mind says that they will be ok with other aggressive animals. he/she has alread proven to me that they are tough enough.

if aggression is not the issue then i will fight and do what i need to to fix it. i have made a whole nother tank while i devided the tank.

i have learned that this is not a hobby. it is a responcibilty and an obsession.

thats my opinion

[stingythingy45]

None taken. :beer:

Cool,

I think when most reefers hear about needing to remove a fish.
The first thing that comes to mind is,"how am I going to catch it without destroying my tank?"
Especially if the tank is large and loaded with fragile SPS corals.
Compile that with a fish that is getting bullied,and it's a nightmare scenario.

[MrTuskfish]

I do apologize. You find sharing opinions and debate about a real topic and a real issue in our hobby a waste of time?

I agree, the 'almighty dollar' makes the world go round, but in many cases today especially it seems, the dollar is bottom line, and not education or giving help when needed most.

I have no problem discussing anything. But, this discussion belongs in the "Lounge" section of the forum, not "new to the hobby". Especially when the topic appears to turn to corporate profit motives. Now, I have to get my red snapper fillets ready for the grill.

[rysher]

The first thing that comes to mind is,"how am I going to catch it without destroying my tank?"sabiki rig:thumbsup:

[Virtuoso]

I'd put a divider in the tank (like eggcrate), let them heal up and give one to someone in my local reef club.

I think this is pretty much the most "ethical" answer you could get. Best solution for everyone.

[~RuSh~]

It seems I've ruffled some feathers. Not my intentions. I'll just keep my crazy thoughts to myself.

[Virtuoso]

I would just think in the future state upfront that it is purely theoretical and not something you are experiencing. I think, especially in the "New to the Hobby" section, people come here to ask questions about problems they are having. And because they are new to the hobby, sometimes the questions are a little on the crazy side. Mine included.

[jeff@zina.com]

Divider.

Jeff