use to T5's considering Mh fewbasic questions

[Jfannin]

Ok I have always used T5's and when I do my new tank I might go Mh just because. I'm not saying one is better then the other but I plan on figuring out for my self what one I like.

what I'm planning on doing is at least a 4 foot bare bottom SPS. like what I have know only bigger and Mh lighting.

I plan on having my squa scape stacked like columns rather then just one big pile of LR. Mostlikely 2 maybe 3 large columns and maybe one short column.

know as far as the 4 foot tanks actual deminshions Im trying to figure out what would work /look the best with the lighting WE deside opon. I know I want it 4 foot long. But I'm not sure what I should go with for the hight and depth. Was thanking going 30" instead of the 25" on the hight so that the columns would have good hight. but then how will that effect the sps and there placement. Will the extra hight force me to spend alot extra on bigger lights/ higher waltz?

So some basic questions. I read alot that people like radium. Question is, is that just the bulb? I can't find a combo with bulb, reflector and ballast.

Somthing alse. At the last local club meeting a guy told me that he uses a ballast that can run 250's or 450's because it adjustable. that sounded like a really nice perk.

Also I already use the Apex controller so if that effects the lighting chooses a little let me know. Like the ability to dim Mh or not. Not sure just thought I would put that out there.

If more info on what kind or tank I want or anything alse that might be needed to better advise me. let me know. Other then that thanks in advance.

A spotlight on ROTM would be kinda cool to shoot for :)

[Jfannin]

So I was looking at the Mh guide and Im banking that for a Sps tank that is 30" tall I should go with 400w Mh rather then 250w.

So my question is. For a sps tank what kinda the average hight of a tank for 250w Mh? what the max, average or kinda the limit for 250w Mh for a sps tank? Would it be maybe like 25" tall or somthing?

[tinkerman]

Yes radium is just a bulb brand name. Radium's are spec for a m80 ballast which is an hqi magnetic. There are only a couple left out there hamilton, bluewave, reefflex. I started with electronic ballasts and the fire the radium but give a much bluer look. The select a watt ballasts still not convinced that they drive the bulbs to spec and what effect on life span of bulb is. I have a 125 tank and have radiums , reefflex cube hqi ballasts, and lumenbright mini's. I have the bottom of the reflecter 20" off the water and have troubles getting new sps use to the light on the sand bed. If you go with radiums and m80 ballasts just be aware there are only a few bulbs that you can run, ushio and radium are the only I know of. Here is a link on some info that helped me make my decision for reflecters. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1567241&highlight=lumen+bright

[JPMagyar]

I'm a longtime Radium user, both 400 on my display and 250 on my frag system. Either bulb will provide plenty of light for very colorful corals down to a depth of 24 inches. For tanks down to 30 inches the 250 will reach, but the corals at the bottom would need to be lower light types. In some ways that isn't a bad idea because you'll have a greater range of light levels and can expand the range of corals you keep. In my display which is only 24 inches deep and has the 400s I can not keep most Acans because the light is too intense, but they do fine in my frag tank on the bottom under 250s. Another consideration is spread. I place the 250s closer to the surface so the width of the light output is less for them than on my 400. I'd say the difference is 6 inches above versus 10 inches above for the 400s. Without question though the Radiums are proven color enhancers. That does NOT mean there aren't other great bulbs which there are for sure; it does mean Radiums are known to produce good results. Personally I like to supplement them with 10000k VHO but that is very old school. If I were starting out I might try supplementing them with ATI Blue + or even KZ Fiji Purple T5s for some extra "pop" in the display. My setup shown below uses four 400 watt Radiums but its 48 x48 x 24 so I needed 2 fixtures to cover the whole width and length hence the total of 4 lamps. As far as ballasts go I would try contacting RC member ReefBum as he has tried several of the newer ballasts available to run Radiums. I use PFO-HQI ballasts which overdrive the lamps, but is no longer available because PFO went out of business. Drop me a PM if you feel like talking about it more! Whatever you choose Good-luck! and be sure to post some build pictures. :beer:


Joe



Joe in NY


http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad115/JoePeck66/RC%20Uploads/FTS2.jpg?t=1301595705



http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad115/JoePeck66/TOTM/TriColorB.jpg?t=1301595813




http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad115/JoePeck66/TOTM/BestTortC.jpg?t=1301595871

[Jfannin]

Thanks tinkerman and jp.

Ive seen your tank on a thread somewhere before jp. Very nice looking tank.

so with the randiums would I be able to use the adjustable ballast or would I be stuck with one or the other (250w or 400w) and have to replace everything if I decided to change from one to the other?

Should I maybe look into another brand / type? Something maybe newer and improved over the Randium? I was thanking LED but that is kinda to new technology. So I plan on waiting sometime before going LED. Maybe try thouse on a small frag tank or somthing for a few years first or something.

I really like T5's and I will most likely use some with the Mh's. Thanking some Actinic and Figi not positive though. Only reason I'm changing is to me it looks like alot alot if not all of the tank of the months are all Mh as their main
Lighting and T5's as a supplement.

[Jfannin]

Was looking at somthing along this lines

lumatek dimmable 250w / 400w metal halide electronic ballast

And of course Really Good reflector and the Randium bulb

Would this be a nice setup and go good together or no?
Considering life of the bulb and at the same time PAR...

[Jfannin]

JP just wondering in the photos you posted, your tank look pretty blue. Is your tank actuly that blue or not so much? Just wondering because Im wanting somthing a little less blue then that.

[Vipete1985]

u may need to use a chiller with the metal halides so take that extra factor into account its gonna cost a shitload to run a chiller and metall halides togtehr thats about100 dollars a month in electricity wen u setup the whole tank

[Jfannin]

Just to make sure I understud that. Your saying that the Chiller and Mh would add $100 a month to my bill? Um that sounds really high. Don't see how that is even possible. I mean yah the Mh and chiller will use extra yah but $100 each month...

[tinkerman]

Jp nice looking tank. I have a couple pics that might help. First is radiums on electronic ballasts and hqi. The yellow bulb is a cheap 10k the other 2 are radium's.
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss68/tinkerman_photos/th_DSCF1902.jpg (http://s562.photobucket.com/albums/ss68/tinkerman_photos/?action=view&current=DSCF1902.jpg)
The hqi ballasts look whiter than what is in the pic, would be more like running 2 ati aquablue specials and 4 blue plus.
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss68/tinkerman_photos/th_Tank3-3-111.jpg (http://s562.photobucket.com/albums/ss68/tinkerman_photos/?action=view&current=Tank3-3-111.jpg)
I have to shade acans, brains, favia on sand bed. I get about 4* swing in temp with a house temp of 70-72*f

[JPMagyar]

Thanks tinkerman and jp.

Ive seen your tank on a thread somewhere before jp. Very nice looking tank.

so with the randiums would I be able to use the adjustable ballast or would I be stuck with one or the other (250w or 400w) and have to replace everything if I decided to change from one to the other?

Should I maybe look into another brand / type? Something maybe newer and improved over the Randium? I was thanking LED but that is kinda to new technology. So I plan on waiting sometime before going LED. Maybe try thouse on a small frag tank or somthing for a few years first or something.

I really like T5's and I will most likely use some with the Mh's. Thanking some Actinic and Figi not positive though. Only reason I'm changing is to me it looks like alot alot if not all of the tank of the months are all Mh as their main
Lighting and T5's as a supplement.


Sorry for the delay . . . here's what I know . . .

Ballasts: I'm not familiar with any adjustable ballasts, but I beleive Reefbum has played around with different ballasts and he might be one to ask in a PM.

Improved Brands: Over the last decade I have spent an embarrassing amount of money trying different lighting fixtures. Along the way I have tried 150 watt to 1000 watt lamps, VHO, T5, PC, and most recently I purchased an AI LED fixture, ReefBrite LEDs, and a several cheap horticulture supply LEDs. Each lamp and lighting style has it's pluses and minuses, but I believe nothing has the broadest application and success as the Radium brand of 20000k lamp. I have no idea why this is other than a guess that the spectrum of light this particular lamp puts out is favorable for a large majority of corals (but definitely NOT all corals i.e. chalices and some zoos).

Lighting Supplements: I use supplements to adjust the color to what I like. Pure Radiums are definitely blue in appearance unless "overdriven".

Blue Photos: No my tank is not as blue in person as it appears in the photos.



u may need to use a chiller with the metal halides so take that extra factor into account its gonna cost a shitload to run a chiller and metall halides togtehr thats about100 dollars a month in electricity wen u setup the whole tank


I do not have a chiller, nor does Jason Edward, nor do several other MH users in my area. Chillers depend on your location and tank as much as they do on your choice of lighting.

Jp nice looking tank. I have a couple pics that might help.


Thanks. And great photos. Really can see the difference easily!

[Alex T.]

I run Radium 400 Watt bulbs on Galaxy Ballasts from Sunlight Supply. I've seen a radium tank with the 400 watt bulb on the classic PFO 400 watt HQI and I honestly cannot tell the difference. I know the PFO puts out 151 PPFD on the PFO and a reported 129 on the Galaxy as per Sanjay's lighting guide on Manhattan reefs. Both ballasts burn very crisp white with blue tint. You will definitely not get the Windex look of other 20k bulbs. The Galaxy ballast overdrives 400 watt lamps to I believe something like 430 watts, where as the PFO is closer to 460 watts. This obviously puts a strain on the bulb and gives a lower life span. People who run the PFO ballast report a spectral shift around six months. I notice that mine can go 11 - 12 months with no significant drop in output. People running older electronic ballasts like Icecap and Blueline seem to get a much more blue look. The Blueline 400 watt ballast actually drives the Radium closest to its' 360 watt output....but this is much more blue and dim than some care for from a 400 watt lamp.

Regarding heat, I have 3 Radiums over my 150 gallon tank (72x18x27) in Lumenarc Mini reflectors mounted 10 inches above the water and do not run a chiller. My tank in the dead of summer can reach 82 degrees so I put a clip on the canopy side to blow air across the surface of the water and temperature has never risen any higher. A larger than normal sump can help dissipate the heat in the display tank as well. You don't necessarily need a chiller. I know that my tank would run much cooler if it were in the main living area of my home, but it is in my home office of 10 x 7 where the closed in space makes it even harder to dissipate heat in the summer.

As far as cost, if you look at the Electrical Calculator on the side of the RC home page you can calculate your consumption if interested. Just team it with your cost per kilowatt off of your last electrical bill to get an idea. I planned my system around trying to negate the need for a chiller. Any submersible pumps add ancillary heat to the system. I have only one for my calcium reactor feed pump. My return pump and skimmer pump are external. All my powerheads are Vortech MP 40's with the hot motor on the dry side of the glass. And a very important part of my system is my ballast location. I cut a hole in the wall behind the tank which is the garage. I have an insulated box which houses all my ballasts. Metal Halide and Supplemental VHO ballasts can get very hot, and a hot room makes it hard to keep the tank temperature down. With 10 hours of VHO Actinic and 7 hours of 1200 watts of Halide the heat generated can be immense. The cost to run my system is roughly $65 per month. I don't think many people actually add up their tank components to see what they're spending, but I would say that I'm on the low side because of low consumption Vortech pumps, efficient externally plumbed return pump and no need for a chiller.

You'll have to experiment to see what works for you. With a 4 foot tank and 2 400 watt halides I don't really see you spending more than $50 per month on electric....maybe even lower. You most likely will not (and probably should not) have them on for more than 6 - 7 hours anyway, at least if you plan on a mixed reef. Personally I can't keep LPS and Soft corals because of how bright my tank is right now with no large shaded areas. I have Crocea clams on the sandbed that are loving the light 27 inches down and 37 inches away from the bulbs. I also have SPS growing and coloring up a mere 5 inches off the sandbed as well. If it's a mixed reef you seek, a 250 watt bulb/ballast combination would save you even more on your electric bill and allow for the placement of SPS, LPS and Soft corals if you so choose.

Hope this helps.

[JPMagyar]

Great post Alex. You should copy this down for future reference since this topic comes up so often! How 'bout some pics? :beer:


Joe

[Jfannin]

Some really good posts guys. Thanks

that's helps alot Alex, because I have always planned on running my big tank pretty much like how you have your from the sound of it.

What I done when I first started into the hobby about 3 years ago was just read read and read some more for idk maybe 6 months before I even bought anything. So I always know from the start that I would mostlikely end up wanting a large tank. So what I done was bought everyplace of equip for a large tank. Things like the skimmer, vorteck, Apex, GFO, ext... But the actual tank I just went with the 40g to kinda practice but also figured this was the best place to save money. Simply do to less water volume = less monthly cost.

The only thing I wish I would have done and didn't is try the Mh sooner

[Jfannin]

Had to end the post early wife was ready lol

But no I just wish I would have started playing with Mh sooner instead of know simply because know I'm wanting my new bigger tank. So know I'm looking at a big exspince all at once. Mh, tank, adding onto the house for the tank :)

[Jfannin]

Ugh wife again lol

So long story short.

I also plan on running as much external as posable. For instance I already have the vortechs, and I plan on running the skimmer, GFO, and all other pumps exturnal to help reduce heat.

So just thanking the apex is showing that I'm using 3.4 amp on my system ATM. Know if I remimber correctly 250w lamps use about that as well. 400w figure dubble that? So If I was to go with the four foot long 25 or so high I could say 2 Mh at 4 amp each for an extra 8 amps total? Then take my old electric bill per 40g and a current bill with the 40g and figure what the 4amp is costing me and then should be able to closely figure what my bill would be monthly with the each 250w Mh that I would add to the system.

[tinkerman]

I have a rkl, the 1 pc4 is saying I am pulling 6.8 amps. Thats with 2x 250 watt hqi m80 ballasts, sro xp2000, and some moonlights. From what I have read the 250's are made to run spec on m80 hqi ballasts, don't remember for 400's. The m80's are suposed to putt 330 watts to the bulb if I remember right, I do have a kilawatt meter thing should hook it up and see what it says.

[Jfannin]

Bubble post

[Jfannin]

Ok I have the same thread going on RC and this was my last post:

Ok i can tell I'm making this harder then it has to be.

Let's do this. This are the tanks I'm considering the most. Yah I want Niger but yah. With each tank whats the best Mh setup in your opinion? So bulbs, ballast, and of course reflectors. As for the ballast I want to avoild majorly overdriving them but don't care to alittle. I don't want to burn them up to fast but at the same time I want them to put out great numbers.

90g 48L x 18D x 25H

120g 48 x 24D x 25

125g. 60 x 18 x 25


Know of coure if you have a tank that you would chouse over another please shear why. But I'll mostlikely be going with the 48L but strongly considering the 60L.

Same as before FULL SPS. Figuring 2 250w for the 48L ? Not sure on the 60.
Of course still wanting looks over growth rate.

If there is a mojor benefit of one tank over the other please post it. Even if it doesn't have to do with the lighting.


Truly a big thanks for all the help already posted and any new post.

[tinkerman]

The 120 has the best footprint for scaping but if you want any tangs I would do the 125. The radiums if you want the best par and 15k look I would do the hqi ballast, reefflex cube, hamilton, or bluewave. I have the reefflex the only draw back to them would be they have a fan, but they run nice and cool. The other option would be lumatek 250, hqi, 400 ballast, I want to say I read that it almost drives it to spec on the hqi setting to 300 watts. Reflecters I have lumenbright mini's like em, 30" spread at 16" off water and good punching power. Other option is lumenmax elite I want to say is the other one with good puching power. If you did the 125 you might check into the lumenbright mini wides might give enough spread and still get away with only 2. These are the options I looked at when I did mine.

[Jfannin]

I guess I would consider this one as well. The price differance is just stupid though.

120 Gal. 48 x 24 x 25 Tall $364
125 Tall 60 x 18 x 25 Tall $396 *
150 Long 60 x 24 x 25 Tall $638

Like $200 more. lol

[Alex T.]

If you're after more bang for your buck I'd go for the 150 long. You could have a nice tang in that footprint and also use a large Lumenarc reflector with 400 watt bulbs to get a great spread. I regret getting a tank that is only 18" wide and will be upgrading to at least 30" next time. Go as wide as you can.

Also, unless you're calculating your amp draw to see what the breaker will allow, don't use that as a gauge for what you'll pay in electric. Electric bills are calculated in kilowatts used...not amps.

[Jfannin]

So your saying one of this would be better? I have to ask why?

As for my aqua scape I plan on doing 2 large tall columns and one smaller short one, or just 3 tall large columns down the center of the tank. So nothing will be any part of the glass front back or on the sides. There is a tank on the web someplace that is alot like what I want. If I can find it I'll link it.


So you thank one of this would be better?
150 - 4 Wide 48 x 30 x 25 Tall $668 *
195 - 5 Wide 60 x 30 x 25 Tall $911 *

[Alex T.]

I think you could still get excellent coverage with 400 watt Radiums in a large Lumenarc reflector in the 60" footprint. Aside from a larger water volume, the aquascaping in the larger footprint could leave more open space with the same amount of rock to allow for corals to grow in and mature.

Here's one tank in particular that covers a 5 foot span with only two reflectors that I think isn't all that bad....:lol:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-07/totm/index.php

[Jfannin]

So I'm taking it that if I was to go with reflectors that cast a wider light I might want to use 400w Mh. Of course if I chouse more of a spotlight reflector I could get the same light intensity but less spread. Would this be correct?


Crap I ran across this two TOTM tanks and k ow they have me second guess the Mh. I'm starting to hate the lighting side of this hobby lol

Both are using T5's and I must say WOW.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/65-tank-of-the-month

http://www.reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/63-tank-of-the-month

I was wondering though. How could it be cost effective using 10 T5's ?

The price of changing out 10 T5's every 8 months would be more then Mh bulbs each year. Also though thats alot of T5's I wondering how the electric usage and heat compare between the two.

[karsseboom]

Just to make sure I understud that. Your saying that the Chiller and Mh would add $100 a month to my bill? Um that sounds really high. Don't see how that is even possible. I mean yah the Mh and chiller will use extra yah but $100 each month...

No not everyone runs chillers with MH infact most people dont. My Mh dont change the water temp at all. If for some reason the temp went a lil higher than maybe i would add a fan, but never would i feel the need to run a chiller.

[karsseboom]

So I'm taking it that if I was to go with reflectors that cast a wider light I might want to use 400w Mh. Of course if I chouse more of a spotlight reflector I could get the same light intensity but less spread. Would this be correct?


Crap I ran across this two TOTM tanks and k ow they have me second guess the Mh. I'm starting to hate the lighting side of this hobby lol

Both are using T5's and I must say WOW.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/65-tank-of-the-month

http://www.reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/63-tank-of-the-month

I was wondering though. How could it be cost effective using 10 T5's ?

The price of changing out 10 T5's every 8 months would be more then Mh bulbs each year. Also though thats alot of T5's I wondering how the electric usage and heat compare between the two.

That light fixture they have is a VERY nice t5 set-up also expensive too. The cost of running 2 250 watt mh would be very close to the cost if not the same as running 10 t5s. T5 dont save that much money over mh.