Substrate idea

[RonMidtownStomp]

Has anyone thought about, considered, or seen a ROCK substrate.. Here's my idea.

What happens if I take a tile saw or chop saw and cut thin rocks so that they have very flat bottoms and place them like a puzzle to cover the bottom of the tank?

It would look very much like almost every actual reef I've seen. I don't like sand already, and have crushed coral instead. It would let me grow chalices and zoa anywhere on that substrate.

I'm a little bit afraid it would disturb some of my contrast, but I do think that my crushed coral may be starting to cause problems and make my phosphate reduction problem worse.

I'd want to maintain the look, only reduce the ability for crap to accumulate in the substrate.

Thoughts?

[whitepines1]

might get build up under the rock bottom and have a hard time cleaning it out. Possibly could elevate the rock somehow to allow flow to reach under the rock to keep the detritus build up down.

[RonMidtownStomp]

I believe the idea would be to keep the rocks flat against the bottom. The idea is to chop the rocks so they go flat against the glass. I'd also want each of them to be removable.

[Borchers]

Sounds like a one of a kind idea. So the bottom would be covered in live rock each piece removable like a puzzle. I can picture it. Your whole tank would be one large filter. Good on that end. And a well placed few powerheads would keep it clean. So detrius would jot he a problem unless it gets a chance to settle. Would it have a crater like look. Each piece only cut in glad with algae covered side face up?

[RonMidtownStomp]

Remember I have this much flow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5af2C0Kd0A

I could do more lower tank flow that way.

[r3k2p]

Instead of cutting the rock flat and thin, what about making man-made live rock tiles out of that aragonite/cement mixture? could it have the same effect?

[SushiGirl]

I would think rock would still accumulate detritus, since regular rocks do. I saw a thread on here before where someone took sand, then coated it with very thick clear epoxy. Looked like sand but was really bare bottom.

[RonMidtownStomp]

It seems easier to turkey vaster rock than to vacuum gravel or have a sand bed expire.

Tiles might work but I don't think it'd ever look natural. Maybe?

[Borchers]

Hell a HYDOR #4 attached to a pole that you can walk around the tank with would work better the a baster. Even a cheap powerhead would work just fine.

[windowlicker916]

Would love to see the outcome of that! Would look great I am sure.

[r3k2p]

Tiles might work but I don't think it'd ever look natural. Maybe?


just depends on how creative you want to be i think. not so flat like tile but kinda random with small rubble or shells... rubble and shells where they come together... maybe overlap on 2 sides with the edges that are being overlapped a little thinner.

this build is doing something similar for the back wall and standpipes using clay
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1869655

[JoshuaG]

Marco sells it precut

http://www.marcorocks.com/ProductImages/primecuts/Prime%20cuts%20craze%20display-500x.jpg

http://www.marcorocks.com/

[Brian Prestwood]

Has anyone thought about, considered, or seen a ROCK substrate.. Here's my idea.

What happens if I take a tile saw or chop saw and cut thin rocks so that they have very flat bottoms and place them like a puzzle to cover the bottom of the tank?


Why does this sound so familiar? At least I give you credit when I rip off your water change chamber :D

I've tried it both sparsely covered as I have it now and fully covered.

Fully covered has some issues...

If you don't glue the rocks down they will shift which ruins the asthetic. If you do glue them down you can't remove them to get invasive species (e.g. palys) out...

http://69.62.155.4:50110/170/20091114/Sinularia%20Dura%20-%20Yellow%20Polyps%20-%20Rich%20Van%20Dusen.JPG

You could try for break away gluing. Put just enough glue to hold them but not so much that you can pry them up if necessary. Silicon glue holds some rocks down well and other not so much. I never tried super glue.

The problem with silicon glue is that if you pull the rock out you can't re-glue them while the tank is full.

If you have an empty acrylic tank you could glue acrylic pegs to the bottom of the tank and drill holes in the rocks so they can't shift and can still be removed. That's what I did for the larger pieces in my tank.

Warning!!! if you make the pegs too tall they can tear a hole through the tank if they are pushed on too hard. Short squat plugs are best.

Obviously it is harder to remove detritus from rock then the bare bottom. Flat rocks are the best shape for trapping detritus in rocks.

Finally, its pretty easy to scape desired bottom dwellers, zoas, palys, shrooms, etc. off the glass and remount them for selling/trading.

In the end, I opted for sparse chopped rocks that are removable. Its not as pretty as fully filled in but its much easier to maintain.

In any case, I'm all setup for cutting and drilling rocks. LMK if you want to bring your rocks here and cut them. Oh, and don't forget to drill frag plug peg holes in the rocks while you are at it.

[RonMidtownStomp]

Brian, I haven't been to your house since you have the new tank set up. I'm confused from reading that post what you did. Do you have pictures of your implementation? My idea would be to fit the rocks closely enough together that they couldn't shift. To be completely clear, my goal would be to slowly remove my crushed coral substrate and replace it entirely with rock instead. The more I think about it, the more I don't see how it'd be any worse than the amount of detritus that settles into the rest of the rock in the tank.

Brian, how did you cut your rock exactly? I have a $550 Dewalt chop saw that I'm not too excited about coating in rock bits.

I like the Marco rock idea, and the more I look at it, the more I realize that I wouldn't have to order as much as I thought I would... The free shipping when I put in 40 lbs makes it VERY tempting, though. I figure I have about 8 sq ft to cover and that's about how much they'd recommend I need. I would probably need to order more and then cut it to fit.

It looks like I could add Marco rock to my system without worrying about an ammonia spike since they have no organics at all in the rock.. interesting. I have this feeling like I'd want to let it soak for a while first or add it to a different chamber first, but the principle seems sound.

The water change chamber idea came from a TOTM thread, btw.. I just don't remember who's. :)

[JoshuaG]

You could also do something like this, but to the bottom. It's limestone tile and once it's aged it looks pretty dang neat.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n76/Lucasrosu/Final%20Glass/22.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n76/Lucasrosu/13.jpg

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1810999&page=9

[windowlicker916]

What's this water change chamber?

I have an idea that I don't think could be implemented in your existing build but would work in a new build. Have the flat rock design raised up like someone suggested and have a bulk head on each end coming from the bottom.

Simultaniously pump water into one bulkhead to force up anything settled on the bottom and have the bulkhead on the other end drain out.

It would be like taking a hose to your curb gutter to push your left over lawn clippings into the storm drain :P

[Bamm Bamm]

I think it could look good I think that you would get some detritus buildup but no where near the amount you have with all that crushed coral... If it was me I'd just go barebottom oh wait I did that a few weeks back-)

[RonMidtownStomp]

I'm pretty opposed to making an area that is inaccessible. I'm not completely sold on this idea, yet. I think I'm going to continue to consider it for a while and maybe try it in a corner of the tank and see how I like the look. I have a couple of areas that were designed as "white space" and what I'm concerned about is that this will make the whole tank look very monotonous. I think it only works if the idea is that the entire tank will become covered in corals.

[windowlicker916]

Why not a hybrid of everything everyone has suggested? ;)

Limestone tile with rock attached to it (now it will all piece together) and then a power head on a stick to stir up all the detrius.

You won't have to worry about cutting the rock which will be tedious (though you can always rent a tile cutting table from a store) and you dont have to worry about gaps.

Would make it easier to rearrage tiles as the shape isn't determined by the rock .

[RonMidtownStomp]

Because then there'd be gap between the rock and the tiles which would collect the stuff I'm trying to eliminate. It's also not at all the look I'm envisioning. Remember my display tank is designed with the goal of making it a work of art. I would be entirely trying to preserve the look while trying something different.

Plus, I have various saws, Brian's set up to cut it, and I like the Marco rock precut idea a lot.

Meanwhile, I'm going to vacuum the crushed coral substrate some more.

[Brian Prestwood]

Brian, I haven't been to your house since you have the new tank set up.

Cool, I guess it works better than I realized. I put the cut rock in my 170g (previous) when I set it up. Pics...

http://69.62.155.4:50110/170/20080302/BareBottom00.JPG

http://69.62.155.4:50110/170/20080302/BareBottom01s.jpg

I'm confused from reading that post what you did. Do you have pictures of your implementation?

I cut rocks flat and glued them to the bottom...

http://69.62.155.4:50110/170/20080302/BareBottom02.JPG

Corner piece

http://69.62.155.4:50110/170/20080302/BareBottom03.JPG

Free standing piece.

I originally had the idea when we had a nano tank contest (05 ish). This is when I figured out silicon glue won't hold them on the side of the tank for more than a month or two.

My idea would be to fit the rocks closely enough together that they couldn't shift.

If you are going to cover the whole bottom then that's probably the best way to do it. Leaving artisitic gaps (grout lines) makes it look better but then you have to glue.

The more I think about it, the more I don't see how it'd be any worse than the amount of detritus that settles into the rest of the rock in the tank.


Me neither. However, keeping a bare bottom clean is easier than cleaning rocks.

Brian, how did you cut your rock exactly?

I used a 10" chop saw with a masonry blade. This saw is dedicated to this purpose. The salt water is slowly ruining it. If you are going to do this at home I suggest you pick up a beater chop saw from the flea market.

I like the Marco rock idea
Build vs buy, always a tough decision.

==================================================


Brian, I haven't been to your house since you have the new tank set up. I'm confused from reading that post what you did. Do you have pictures of your implementation? My idea would be to fit the rocks closely enough together that they couldn't shift. To be completely clear, my goal would be to slowly remove my crushed coral substrate and replace it entirely with rock instead. The more I think about it, the more I don't see how it'd be any worse than the amount of detritus that settles into the rest of the rock in the tank.

Brian, how did you cut your rock exactly? I have a $550 Dewalt chop saw that I'm not too excited about coating in rock bits.

I like the Marco rock idea, and the more I look at it, the more I realize that I wouldn't have to order as much as I thought I would... The free shipping when I put in 40 lbs makes it VERY tempting, though. I figure I have about 8 sq ft to cover and that's about how much they'd recommend I need. I would probably need to order more and then cut it to fit.

It looks like I could add Marco rock to my system without worrying about an ammonia spike since they have no organics at all in the rock.. interesting. I have this feeling like I'd want to let it soak for a while first or add it to a different chamber first, but the principle seems sound.

The water change chamber idea came from a TOTM thread, btw.. I just don't remember who's. :)

[RonMidtownStomp]

Gotcha, the innovation isn't the flat rocks, it's the covering of the whole bottom of the tank with them, else you could sue marco rocks for infringing on your idea :)

I don't take major tank changes like this lightly, so I'm going to pondering it for a while.

[Brian Prestwood]

Its hard to get the aesthetic right. If they are all the same height it ends up looking like cobblestone, not natural at all.

Its all about the height of the adjancent pieces. I wanted mine to look like a gracefully undulating base with pinacles sticking out.

That means grading the cuts. The height of the base rocks should range between around 1" and 4" tall. When you place them be mindful of the adjacent heights.

In the end, between the aesthetic issues and the maintenance issues I opted for sparse filling. Considering how much detritus I'm siphoning out these days that was a good decision. Perhaps after the coraline algae settles in I'll revisit it.

Edit: This is starting to sound more like a zen garden then an aquarium :D

[Brian Prestwood]

I'm heading over to YourReef with my chop saw. Stop by if you want to see how to chop some rocks.

[simpleman98]

I thought about pouring an argonite concrete layer as substrate for my 150. I didn't have the patience to let it cure. I ending up going with a very thin layer of CC. So far I'm happy with the CC.
If I recall correctly Pete Kelly did the jigsaw bottom with his 45 gallon tech. It must have trapped a lot of detrius as it created a mess when he took it apart.

[fishnerd]

Ron

There was a guy in the elos forum a few years back that had a solid piece of limestone that was cut to fit his tanks. Some were 3-4 inches thick and i think he had one5-6 imches thick. It was very pourus with holes everwhere. He was from the bahamas iirc o will link if i find it

[Bamm Bamm]

there's another option as well.. White or black starboard.. basically cutting board.. then you could have temendous flow and the bottom would be white and eventually cover with coraline.. but I think you want a more natural kinda look.. I do like the cut rock idea

[Bamm Bamm]

check this theres a few links on it as well
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2000857

[Saltwaternooby]

Yea i seen that in the DIY section, I was thinking a similar thing with the reef ceramics tiles, that way they would be flat. You could always cut them up and put them down live hardwood flooring to limit strait lines.

[RonMidtownStomp]

The general idea has been wife-vetoed, but I think I'm going to do the back corners beside the overflow. I'll get to see how it looks, it's easily removable, and I think it will help in a couple of ways. Eventually I might do a couple of other spots in the tank.

I may go for more whitespace with crushed coral and no corals sitting on or in it in the display tank to get the look back that I'd originally envisioned anyway.

[Bamm Bamm]

yeah that might be cool..

[parkinsn]

Sorry OP this a bit off topic but I am about to undertake a new build and would like some input on my idea. This thread seems to be on that track. I like the look of substrate in tanks but would like to avoide the problems and hassle associated with it.

What I would like to do is spread a thin layer of silicone or foam to the bottom of the tank. Then put arragonite, sand, CC something to that effect on it to give the "look" of a sand bed but essentially be BB still. Also leaving some substrate loose after it drys to "roll" around to give it a some what natural look. Either that or or doing the same thing to a piece of acrylic that is cut to fit for the bottom of the tank so it can be removed at a later date.

Thoughts anyone?

[RonMidtownStomp]

It seems to me like there's a hassle to any type of tank bottom due to detritus collection. I'm interested to see what other people have to say because I haven't done much at all in terms of DIY rocks or sand or anything like that. Perhaps my whole situation would be better had I cemented my CC together somehow to keep stuff from settling into it.

[tcoral]

I'm heading over to YourReef with my chop saw. Stop by if you want to see how to chop some rocks.

Thanks Brian for the chopped rocks :). I just lucked out being there at the right time, they are curing now (now I can get that egg crate out of my main display :) ).

[JoshuaG]

Ron

There was a guy in the elos forum a few years back that had a solid piece of limestone that was cut to fit his tanks. Some were 3-4 inches thick and i think he had one5-6 imches thick. It was very pourus with holes everwhere. He was from the bahamas iirc o will link if i find it

I'm thinking of doing something similar to that for my bottom. It looks pretty dang nice once it's aged. This guy did it to the back of his tank.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n76/Lucasrosu/Final%20Glass/22.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n76/Lucasrosu/13.jpg

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1810999&page=9