Shark! shark?

[matt randazzo]

when i was looking on youtube for tank set-ups, I had seen a 120 gallon tank with a sargassum triggerfish, a SF eel, a foxface and a banded cat shark...

I was just wondering if I could keep a banded cat shark, with 2 dwarf lionfish, a blue jaw trigger, in a 125 gallon fowlr set up?

[skibum9884]

I'd say no, a 125 is nowhere near large enough for the shark or trigger long term. Also, triggers and sharks don't do well together. The triggers have a tendency to chew away at the sharks.

[reefergeorge]

IMO, not for long if at all.
I've read, so no personal experience that lions make bad tank mates for sharks. If it does work, you have about six months before the shark wont be able to turn around.

[gweston]

Sharks need very large tanks.

As for the triggers.. is your 125 a 6' long? There are certain smaller trigger species that would work for a 125 6' long tank, but I would not put them in a shorter length tank at all. Bluechin, Sargassum, and Crosshatch may work. For a FOWLR there may be a few other options. As with any fish, you just need to plan and stock carefully. Carnivores need very good filtration. Make sure you have a hefty skimmer.

Triggers and dwarf lions together. I'm not so sure. Some triggers will nip their spines off. Also plan the pair of dwarfs well. You may need to guarantee an male/female pair. A pair of males may fight and result in a death.

[THEDLO]

also lions and triggers dont mix well either. i think there's a thread somewhere here about this. it even has a video.

[AuroraDrvr]

Bluechin, Sargassum, and Crosshatch may work.
Sargassums and Crosshatches are open-water swimmers (more-so than Bluejaws). I'd recommend a 180 minimum for the Sargassum and 240 for the Crosshatch.

125 for a single Bluejaw will be fine.

[matt randazzo]

ok then what do you guys think the bare minimum tank size is for a shark? I'm on a budget, kinda... Oh and yes the tank I'm planning on getting is a 6' 125... But I'm still in the planning stages...

what is the shark was born into the tank, and that volume of water was all it knew?

Also I'm pretty sure that a blue jaw/chin trigger won't have problems with the lions... Oh and I was planing on gettin two different spicies, dwarf lions so I have less of a chance they'll fight if both end up being male...

And thanks for all the posts so quickly you guys :)

[Playerdrm]

Shark will still outgrow the tank they don't stop growing just cause they're in a small tank.

[mattiej]

To be quite honest, no fish grows to the size of its tank. This is a myth that has been around as long as people have kept marines. What often happens is that the fish does not reach its full max size and is really being stunted in growth. A stunted shark is a soon to be dead shark.

[rocking]

the onley place i know what had a shark for ten years was a lfs in the north bay and the tank was 4 too be to be in a house it was 12' long by 12' and 4' high and at year 9 thay where trying to get it a new home thay did by year ten its at the sf aquarem
and when thay came to get him he was almost 6 foot long
dont kill the shark in that small of a tank
is best to git it to some place that can keep it

[helicoprion]

240 gallon for a single epaulette is the minimum in my opinion. Unless you're willing to buy all your equipment used over a long period of time you aren't going to be keeping much of a budget either I'm afraid.

[matt randazzo]

well what about a Coral cat shark (Atelomycterus marmoratus), on bluezoo aquatics it says that they only get a little bit over 2', and only need 150 gallons... dose that 20 gallons Really make that big a difference?

[SkullV]

well what about a Coral cat shark (Atelomycterus marmoratus), on bluezoo aquatics it says that they only get a little bit over 2', and only need 150 gallons... dose that 20 gallons Really make that big a difference?

No shark should be in a tank under 100 as babies 180 as juveniles, and 300 as adults in my opinion. Unfortunately the setup you are planning will just never properly support a shark throughout its entire lifetime.

[Playerdrm]

well what about a Coral cat shark (Atelomycterus marmoratus), on bluezoo aquatics it says that they only get a little bit over 2', and only need 150 gallons... dose that 20 gallons Really make that big a difference?

I wouldn't go off that 150g statement I couldnt see keeping a 2ft shark in a 6ft tank

[Stumped]

well what about a Coral cat shark (Atelomycterus marmoratus), on bluezoo aquatics it says that they only get a little bit over 2', and only need 150 gallons... dose that 20 gallons Really make that big a difference?

Online fish suppliers are in the business of making money. The reality is that they sell certain fish that genuinely have no business being in the average home aquarium (aside from the massive tank exceptions). In addition to that the tank sizes they list as minimums aren't always that realistic. If they actually put down 500+ gallons for a fish, how many people would even fall into that category? Something like <1% of all aquarium owners.

[matt randazzo]

Oh all right then, :( <-(dreams crushed) lol :) well I'm just glad I asked before I jumped right into buying one on account of false information... and my thanks to you all.

What about a sting ray??? Is there one that would be fit for a life in a 125 gallon aquairum? If Yes, how much?

[Stumped]

Oh all right then, :( <-(dreams crushed) lol :) well I'm just glad I asked before I jumped right into buying one on account of false information... and my thanks to you all.

What about a sting ray??? Is there one that would be fit for a life in a 125 gallon aquairum? If Yes, how much?

Someone else can chime in, but I'm pretty sure the footprint for most standard tanks is inappropriate for rays. They're better suited for ponds or at the very least a custom lagoon type set up. They only utilize the bottom of the tank so a 3' cube (which I think is roughly like 150g) would be way better than a standard 150g.

[matt randazzo]

well a 3' cube would have the same foot print area as a 6' by 18" tank

[Stumped]

well a 3' cube would have the same foot print area as a 6' by 18" tank

Not with respect to actual function. Which is what my point is. For something like rays total gallonage is less important than what % of the actual footprint is functional for a bottom dwelling species. Ultimately they're really better off in a pool or lagoon type set up.

If you're keeping sharks/rays in a cube or pool it's really common to see the rock stacked in the center to form an island. That way there's a ton of open sand to swim around 360 degrees. With only 18" of width you cant position the rock in anyway that won't obstruct swimming in some fashion. On top of that, any swimming movement would be much more linear because not only is it a narrower space to navigate, the rock would add additional problems for turning.

[Xpilot]

There is a freshwater species of ray I have seen kept in smaller tanks, you may want to look into that if you really want a ray.

[namxas]

Matt,

As Stumped pointed out, don't confuse "area" with "footprint". This is why you see me recommending 24" wide 100, 120, and 150 gal tanks for large lionfish, as it gives them plenty of 'turnaround' room even tho a 48" long setup SEEMS like it wouldn't be as good as a 72" long setup.

[matt randazzo]

Ok well what I was planning to do was to build "spiers" out of live rock, but I'm thinking of using an epoxy to bind the rock together, and each spier would be held off the floor by small "pillers" if you will... as to create a shaded/ cave area... would that be sufficent for a small spicies of ray?

Also, what is the smallest spicies of ray or the one that needs the least room?

[SkullV]

Ok well what I was planning to do was to build "spiers" out of live rock, but I'm thinking of using an epoxy to bind the rock together, and each spier would be held off the floor by small "pillers" if you will... as to create a shaded/ cave area... would that be sufficent for a small spicies of ray?

Also, what is the smallest spicies of ray or the one that needs the least room?

There is not one saltwater ray that will fit in your 125 tank for life.

[Stumped]

Ok well what I was planning to do was to build "spiers" out of live rock, but I'm thinking of using an epoxy to bind the rock together, and each spier would be held off the floor by small "pillers" if you will... as to create a shaded/ cave area... would that be sufficent for a small spicies of ray?

Also, what is the smallest spicies of ray or the one that needs the least room?

The plan you describe still won't work. You physically will be incapable of doing what you describe and presuming a 18" width on your tank, you'd still not have enough open sand space. I'm not trying to be rude when I say this, but there's a reason that you don't see more people keeping rays in standard size tanks. They just are not well suited to house them.

Also, someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are any species of saltwater rays that can be housed permanently in a 125g. so there isn't any species of ray that would suit your current plans for a set up.

[jjk_reef00]

Don't put a ray in a 125. You need an 8' tank even for the smallest rays.

[CPL_DSM]

IF you wanted to do sharks get a shark egg. You can house a baby shark about 5inch till its about a foot an half long. As far as triggers I have only heard of true triggers being a problem with sharks. My lion never was a problem with my nurse.

[bamato]

For any info on keeping sharks or rays, I'd recommend you make your way over to the MFK (monsterfishkeeprs) website. Read up in the marine sharks/rays section. As you'll come to learn, 400-500 gallons is the minimum recommended tank size for the smallest of species of sharks (this advice will come from actual experience over there, as a lot of the guys over there have been keeping elasmo's for years). And, if you're on a budget, take the idea of having a shark or ray, and throw it out of your head. I hate to discourage you, but sharks/rays can't be kept properly on a budget. Aside from the usually massive start-up costs, you have to be willing to dedicate 10-12 hours a week to these animals (feeding, observing swim patterns, disease treatment, shopping for fresh food). It's not an undertaking I'd recommend to lightly to even moderately experienced aquarium keepers.

Greg, Frank, and myself have given you many recommendations to fill your tank with unique and interesting livestock. Start there. Then, when you have lots of time and money down the road, decide to make that jump to keeping "monsters" ;)

Also, the tank recommendations from LA or BZ or whoever need to be taken with a grain of sand. For example, at one point, LA's website claimed you could keep Smoothhound sharks in a 180g tank.... 180 isn't even large enough to comfortably house a juvie (800 gallons recommended). These sharks require around 2500 minimum gallons to be happy for life. A far cry from 180.

[mattiej]

I have to agree here on several points. While sharks are hardy animals in their natural environment, in captivity they are much more difficult to maintain due to their basic biological needs. While I do not want to discourage anyone from keeping these remarkable animals, they take so much more then do many other fish. I have been keeping sharks for more then a decade and have worked with them while employed by a public aquarium. The best way for you to gain some knowledge is to follow much of the solid advice given thus far. I would also strongly caution you to avoid hatching your own pup. While it can be done, more often then not the pup dies due to lack of feeding as well as stress from being shipped while encapsulated. You would be much better off to obtain a juvi that is already feeding. I would also recommend not trying to keep the shark in a tank that can not house it for its entire life. Many will argue here but I have seen too many folks get sharks with the intention of upgrading as the sharks grows and more often then not it never happens. Just my .02

[CPL_DSM]

I would have to say if you want to do a shark do it. Alot of people will give you all the advice in the world. Yes a shark will out grow you tank. I was told so many time by experts at Monsterfish keeps that my tank was to small for a Nurse that she would out grow her tank with in a year. Truth is up till last year I moved her to a bigger tank. Thats one thing that I do agree with is sharks do get bigger however its not like a rapid growth that people say. I would recommend go to Shark and Ray central. Those guys seem to understand shark rasing better then anyone. Like I said I would do a egg if you wanted to get a shark. I have never had any problem with eggs. You just have to get them to eat the first week they hatch, Never remove the sack from water. Buy them already hatched is harder to transfer then a egg. I have had over 12 sharks most bought while still in the egg never had one problem.

[bamato]

^^ There-in lies the problem. There's always the "I'll just go bigger when I need to" assumption that ends up falling through. Be it shortage of money, time, etc, that happens all the time.. There's a difference between keeping the animal in a proper environment, and just getting by.

CPL, what types of sharks were you keeping? And in what types of tanks, and at what size?

[CPL_DSM]

My first shark was a bamboo I started it in a 55 gal. Till the rule of thumb once the shark is the same length as the side it time to move to a bigger tank. Bamboo and other bottom feeding sharks dont move as much. So like you Black tips a cylinder tank works best. But I have had three diffrent types of bamboos. Hatched my own bamboo eggs. I did however sold those sharks due Marine corps moving me. I have owned a smooth hound, lepoard shark, and Now my Nurse shark. My nurse started off in a 125gal then I moved to a 200gal. Now she is in a 300gal with a bigger foot. Thats really the key. I have had her for little over three years now and plains for after this deployment to move her to close to 3000gal. tank. I knew what I was getting into when I bought the shark. I'm not saying you wont have to go bigger but not right away. My Bamboos grew up in a reef setting, the Nurse is in move of a shore bottom little reef but not much. The Lepoard was sent to a friend because I really did like how it was doing and I realized that it need move of a rounded tank so it could swim better.

[Stumped]

I would have to say if you want to do a shark do it. Alot of people will give you all the advice in the world. Yes a shark will out grow you tank.

The thing is, the situation you described in your posts is definitely the exception. Most people are going to be incapable of either constantly upgrading to a larger tank (ie. your 55g -> 300g progression) and also be incapable of passing a large shark on to someone else.

In reality what will happen is most people won't upgrade and won't be able to find anyone to take a large shark off their hands, so the shark will be stuck living in an entirely unsuitable environment.

[CPL_DSM]

The thing is, the situation you described in your posts is definitely the exception. Most people are going to be incapable of either constantly upgrading to a larger tank (ie. your 55g -> 300g progression) and also be incapable of passing a large shark on to someone else.

In reality what will happen is most people won't upgrade and won't be able to find anyone to take a large shark off their hands, so the shark will be stuck living in an entirely unsuitable environment.

I agree. I have had people give me there sharks because they couldn't house them anymore. I have also seen bamboo sharks stuck in tanks way to small where the end up getting sick. My main point research a shark before you get it. Have a idea that it wont be small forever. However if you have 125gal a hatched egg will be fine for a year or so till you have to upgrade.

[vamaro]

I have cross hatch and bluie jaw triggers with my rays and shark. They are fine. Other triggers will not mix well. You tank is too small to keep a shark in the long term. You can keep a ray for about 9 months. After that it will need more space. You need a big skimmer too. I had a hard time with water quality until I got a bubble king. Soft sand is also necessary.

[SkullV]

I have cross hatch and bluie jaw triggers with my rays and shark. They are fine. Other triggers will not mix well. You tank is too small to keep a shark in the long term. You can keep a ray for about 9 months. After that it will need more space. You need a big skimmer too. I had a hard time with water quality until I got a bubble king. Soft sand is also necessary.

You have multiple rays and a shark with those triggers in a 220? What dimensions? Do you have any photos?

[vamaro]

Tank is 72X30. The triggers pay no attention to the rays. The rays stay mostly at the bottom of the tank and swim at the surface a few times a day or when they smell food. The triggers are usually in the middle to upper part of the tank. I have had my oldest ray almost 3 years. My male cross-hatch is over 8 inches. The cross-hatches are really laid back fish. They do not even eat cleaners. I also have a threadfin snapper in there as well.

The shark is an epaulette. I rarely see it if the lights are on. Normally sleeps during the day. Has run of the tank all night.

Sounds like a lot fish, but the tank actually looks empty most of the time becasue there are only a few fish swimming. I planned it this way and had the tank made 30 wide of the rays.

Of course I feed a lot and need a big skimmer. Other than that, this tank is really easy to take care of.

Here is a a photo of the tank but it looks empty. Like I said, there are not that many fish.

http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu97/vamaro/CIMG0411.jpg

[rnscross]

what type of ray?

[vamaro]

They are California Rays. I have also heard people call them Cortez Rays. I am not sure of the scientific name. They do not get very big. Disk is about 9 inches. They are very hardy and friendly. We hand feed them all. The big section of rock is there so that the ray can come to the top of the tank for us to hand feed them. The rock also serves as a large cave. The fish sleep there at night.

If you have the right set-up, the rays are easier to keep than any fish I have ever had. They eat mostly anything, they do not fight and they do not get ick, etc. The only issues is that they eat a lot and need to be fed daily. Big skimmers are required.

I need to watch the type of fish I keep with them as they will get picked on by meaner types of triggers. I also had a Morish Idol that I had to get rid of becasue it was biting their tails. Puffers can be a problem too with the tail biting. I have had tangs with them before without any issue, but I do not keep tangs anymore due to the constant fighting with the other fish. I like a peaceful tank.

[CPL_DSM]

I have always had problems with rays. I think mostly its to do with my nurse shark. Due to the feeding cause between her and the eels the ray would neve get food.

[vamaro]

CPL DSM - I have similar issues. The triggers are too fast for them. I have to hand feed the rays to make sure that they get food. I have them trained to come to the top of the rocks. How big is your nurse shark?

[CPL_DSM]

She's close to 3ft. I got her when she was just a pup. Shes also housed with about 3 1/2 ft zebra moray eel. I had other fish with her but I gave them up because I am currently deployed so they all went to a maintance aquarium guy that building my next tank for the nurse and my eel.