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didz04
05/11/2011, 05:56 PM
Hi, everyone I really need some help please. If you can read through the specs I have written about my system and give out any potential advise.

There's all sorts of algae in my setup and I am looking for suggestions on whats causing it. Algae from; Diatom, green algae and hair, red algae and balloon red algae, Coralline but which I like.

Specs of my tank, 130 liter sumpless

Resun 2000 lph
SunSun 3000 lph
Wg-310 Skimmer
Heater

2 t8 18w lights - non-marine tubes though.
2 t5 24w lights - marine white 14k - marine reef 10k

Stock

1" Chromis
2" Yellow Watchman goby
4 hermits
4 1" snails (not turbos)
A dozen of I think is nassarius snails no bigger than 1cm.
Plenty of; Copepods, Britsleworms, brittle stars.

Mushrooms, Button polyps, Pulsing xenia, 1 Duncan head coral (recently growing another head) and a small frag of alveopora.

Ive setup this tank 6 weeks back and had all my live stock in a 60 lt nano for the past year in July except the chromis and watchan goby.

Potential problems that I know may be causing it.

1) Not enough flow - SunSun 23 turnover - Resun 15 turnover
The Resun is a tiny power head so I don't think its doing 2000 lph comparing it to the SunSun ph. The SunSun PH was more than enough in my 60 lt.

2) Not enough clean up crew in my tank.

3) Possibly the T8 lighting being non -marine tubes and running out causing the problems?


Please Any help and advise on what I should do and possibly buy?

Thanks

HighlandReefer
05/11/2011, 06:08 PM
There are a lot of hobbyists in your same position. Reducing your nitrate and phosphate levels to a zero reading will help in getting rid of many type of algae and/or cyanobacterial pests. IME, reducing nitrate and phosphate levels too low can kill or cause problems for many types of soft coral. Running GAC & GFO will all help in reducing the growth of these type of pests. In many cases they will not eradicate the pest even when phosphate and nitrate are extemely low. Vinegar and/or Vodka dosing will help reduce the nitrate and phosphate levels also, but will not necessarily eradicate the pest either.

A common problem is being able to identify your pest to a category correctly: true algae, cyano, dino, bacteria & other assorted pests that look similar. In many cases a micro look at your pest is best to properly ID it to one of these categories.

IMHO, if you are faced with an algal type pest problem, it is best to implement an algae pest control program strategy:


1) Wet skimming with a good quality skimmer. Clean your skimmer cup at least once per week.

2) Reduce your nitrates and phosphates to a zero reading using the hobby grade test kits. See Randy's articles regarding this:

Phosphate and the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/chem.htm

3) Proper lighting. I find that the higher wavelength bulbs are less conducive to algae growth. I now run 20,000 K bulbs from using 10,000 K bulbs.

4) Proper day length is a good thing also. I would not run your lights for more than 12 hrs total. Keep in mind that light entering from a window nearby is added to this figure.

5) Running GAC is a good practice in my book. It will help reduce the total dissolved organic carbons in your tank water and this is a food source.

6) Proper 30% per month total water changes will help export the DOC as well as some of the pests in the water column. It will help maintain the micro-nutrients as well.

7) Physical removal of the pest by hand, scrubbing and siphoning is important as well. If the amount of pest in your aquarium is overwhelming, perhaps dealing with one section at a time is a better idea.

8) Proper water circulation in your tank to prevent dead zones. When dealing with cyanobacteria pests increasing the flow where it grows seems to help.

9) Use RODI water for all top-off, salt mixing, additive mixes... etc.

10) Dosing iron may have benefits for macro-algae, but if you are experiencing algae pest problems than I would stop dosing it as it can add to the problem in many cases.

11) If you are dosing other supplements such as vitamins, amino acids, or others that contain a mix of supplements other than the basic alk., calcium and magnesium, I would stop these until you gain control of your pest. This includes many of the store bought products with unknown ingredients. Dosing Vodka or sugar to reduce your nitrates and phosphates would be an exception in my opinion.

12) Proper feeding habits. This can be the number one problem when trying to reduce your nitrate and phosphate levels. Use low phosphate fish foods.

13) IMHO, lighted refugiums may be a problem when trying to deal with an algae type pest problem. They are wonderful when it comes to reducing nitrates and phosphates. However, the light over most refugiums is conducive to the microalgae type pests. If the refugium becomes infested with a microalgae pest, I would clean it throughly of all pests as best as possible, remove the macro and turn off the lights until you gain control of your pest. Re-using the same macroalgae later may serve as a source for re-infestation of your pest.

14) Adding fish and other creatures that will eat your algae pest will help.

15) Running a diatom filter which has been suggested by Boomer, makes a lot of sense to me. It will help remove a lot of organic material in your water column.

16) For some additional thoughts regarding switching an algae based system to a bacterial based system see this thread:
(Using a carbon source with appropriate bacterial dosing may possibly help to push your system to where you want it although this is controversial.)

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1781320

17) There are other items that can be added to this list if others care too share and some of the items listed may be disputed.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ _______


If after you have tried all these procedures and you are still loosing the battle, I would recommend that you initiate the use of AlgaeFix Marine based on the reports I have seen in this thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1595003

I hate to see anyone give up on this hobby due to algae type pest problems.

didz04
05/11/2011, 06:33 PM
Thanks just read through it all and there's a lot of factors to consider. I am not supplementing anything into the tank and I am using lfs water for my water changes. So I haven't gotten around into using any RO unit or even mixing my own salt yet.

I will purchase another SunSun power head as I have a feeling I may be getting dead spots around a few areas and I know these ph can really produce some good flow.

Does my cuc seem quite low for my tank size and amount of fish I have at the mo? Will adding 6 more hermits, snails (turbos and mexican) help? Plus possibly a fighting conch as they seem to do great jobs in clearing up from what Ive read?

Thanks

2thdeekay
05/12/2011, 12:41 AM
All food contains nitrogen and phosphorus. Regulating N and P input, and increasing your export of nitrate and phosphate by methods described by Cliff is good advice. Keeping these nutrients very low will help control pest algae growth. Good luck!

Randy Holmes-Farley
05/12/2011, 04:51 AM
I'd personally start with some GFO to export more phosphorus before the algae gets it and increase the herbivores. :)

neoalchemist74
05/12/2011, 05:45 PM
If that tank is only 6 weeks old its probably still cycleing.

SushiGirl
05/12/2011, 07:19 PM
If that tank is only 6 weeks old its probably still cycleing.

+1. All common in a 6-week-old tank.

iamwrasseman
05/12/2011, 08:22 PM
+2 on the young tank but gfo will help you too regardless .light spectrium and age of the bulbs may be an issue also as explained by cliff .

chrissu
05/12/2011, 09:32 PM
A simple, natural and inexpensive way to remove algae from your display tank is to built or buy yourself an Algae Scrubber for your sump area. Read the Algae Scrubber basics thread in the advanced area for more details. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1977420


With a scubber, you basically create an intensly lit area where there is rapid water flow. Algae with take off and grow like a weed in that sump area right where you want it. This sump algae will consume the nitrates and phosphates that your display tank is enjoying now. Your nitrates and phosphates will drop like a rock once your algae is established in the sump. In the next phase when your nitrates and phosphates are nearly depleted, your algae growth in both your display tank and your sump will begin to slow down. Then something magical happens, the algae growing in your sump area has far better lighting and water flow is it still keeps growing and absorbing what little nitrate and phosphate it can pull from your water column. The scrubber environment allows the algae in your sump area to out compete that algae in your display tank. The algae in your display tank starts to wither and receed all by itself. It's natural selection in action and it works great. It will save you alot of money and is the safest permanent solution to your problem.

There are other benefits to scrubbers too but you are asking about removing algae from your display tank and a scrubber provides a safe and effective natural way of doing that for you.

Randy Holmes-Farley
05/13/2011, 04:40 AM
Yes, algae scrubbers and other ways of using macroalgae can certainly be useful ways to export nutrients. :)

and is the safest permanent solution to your problem.

Not sure what you mean by safe. There are plenty of "safe" methods. :)

chrissu
05/13/2011, 01:29 PM
Yes, algae scrubbers and other ways of using macroalgae can certainly be useful ways to export nutrients. :)

and is the safest permanent solution to your problem.

Not sure what you mean by safe. There are plenty of "safe" methods. :)

I stand corrected Randy! I really should have said that an ATS, like GAC, water changes, and several other options, is one of the safer methods. It's definitely a much safer fitration solution than vodka (carbon) dosing, which is what really caught my attention in the first place.

Good algae scrubbers produce 10-50 times the volume of micro algae in a given space over macro algae growth in optimum conditions over the same time period of a week. Macro algae growing in a refugium just doesn't grow nearly as fast so it can't compete against an ATS system in it's ability to absorb nitrates and phosphates and thereby export nutrients so quickly. Having lots of macro growing in a large refrugium is a great solution and I'm a big fan of all of the more natural methods. Both methods have worked well for over 500 million years in the oceans, right?

:deadhorse1:

didz04
05/13/2011, 01:36 PM
Thank you greatly appreciated for the responses. I'm trying a few of the ideas right now and never heard of the Algae Scrubber plan before, will like to give it a try if it works then I will definitely spread the message lol. I'll take a look at the thread.

Does cheato take in both nitrates and phosphates?

Thanks

chrissu
05/13/2011, 01:50 PM
Thank you greatly appreciated for the responses. I'm trying a few of the ideas right now and never heard of the Algae Scrubber plan before, will like to give it a try if it works then I will definitely spread the message lol. I'll take a look at the thread.

Does cheato take in both nitrates and phosphates?

Thanks

Cheato takes in nitrates and phosphates quite well. And since it is a form of algae, it also takes in ammonia/ammonium, nitrite, inorganic phosphate, metals (like copper, aluminum and iron), and CO2 out of the water. It also removes Iodine from the water over time. Alkalinity may in some cases be slightly decreased, because of algae's slight use of bicarbonate to get CO2. It puts oxygen into the water through photosynthesis. Lastly, organic molecules are put into the water: Carbohydrates, vitamins, proteins, enzymes, lipids, and these amino acids: valine, leucine, tyrosine, phenylalanine, methionine, aspartate, glutamate, serine, alanine, and proline. (borrowed from the algae scrubber site).

Cheato likes gentle, contant water flow and good lighting so read up a bit on how to grow it the fastest and you will be happy with the results. Plan to use a sizable amount of cheato to effectively starve the algae from your display tank but cheato works well.

Randy Holmes-Farley
05/13/2011, 01:55 PM
Good algae scrubbers produce 10-50 times the volume of micro algae in a given space over macro algae growth in optimum conditions over the same time period of a week.

I've seen some pretty wild claims about the efficiency of ATS systems, some of which didn't even make theoretical sense.

What evidence do you have to support that 10-50x? That seems unlikely to me.

It's definitely a much safer fitration solution than vodka (carbon) dosing, which is what really caught my attention in the first place

What do you think is unsafe about it?

FWIW, ATS systems have been around for many years. They often seem to not live up to the hype, and many folks that have tried them have stopped using them after a while. That said, there certainly are folks who have used them successfully and like them. :)

tmz
05/13/2011, 02:07 PM
ATSs work to some extent as do other methods. Safety, nature, magical claims and criticizing other methods are more an expression of personal preference , anecdotal and often overstated. To be effective and ats requires light, surging flow, seeding and harvesting. Building one sounds like a fun project and if you are so inclined you could give it a try .If you do it right it should help but don't expect magic.

Personally, I'd go with water changes and gfo to start.

Organic carbon dosing is also safe and effective,ime, when done properly.

Barfly
05/13/2011, 04:02 PM
FWIW, ATS systems have been around for many years. They often seem to not live up to the hype, and many folks that have tried them have stopped using them after a while. That said, there certainly are folks who have used them successfully and like them. :)

Agreed, algae scrubbers are nothing new to the hobby and there is a reason why they have not gained a more widespread use. Most of the claims made by people running an ATS are made without the use of any definitive research. Most of the systems I have seen running an ATS have micro algae in the DT, which IMO, defeats the whole purpose. Cleaning an ATS weekly, at least, is a must or you run the risk of introducing nasties (phenols, skatols and creosols), and back into the water column. Not to mention the possible chlorophyll release.

There are a couple of staunch advocates for the use of an ATS. One, has an obvious financial interest in their widespread use and the other is a long time, and well respected member of the RC community, PaulB. I copied the following from a fellow poster, Teesquare, and I completely agree with his opinion on the matter...

I have great respect for Paul - but let's qualify his aquarium: Not a "reef" tank, by the typical appearance/definitions - and more importantly how many of us just go out to the beach, and get our water for water changes??? he is using reverse flow undergravel filtering as well....And I am duly impressed with him tenacity to the "old tried and true. But - folks like Paul are rare individuals, and due our wonder and respect. Not really a parallel most can draw from...Interesting that there are always the "1%" in any endeavor, - and we need that for a number of reasons to continue learning what to do , and not do - but really - if the method is better, providing better results...WHY is it not the popular choice? if it saves time or money, or even works well enough to impress perspective clients/customer, then where is Inland Oceans today? Why do the various speakers at MACNA or other conferences not keep pushing this system as *THE* approach for a better aquarium system???? Why do we not see wholesalers, or large scale frag farming filtered this way?

calbert0
05/13/2011, 04:42 PM
+1. All common in a 6-week-old tank.

+ 3.

Also check your magnesium level. It definitely plays a factor in all of this.

bertoni
05/13/2011, 05:17 PM
I don't know of a relationship between magnesium and algal growth, although dosing Kent Tech-M seems to kill some forms of algae, likely due to a contaminant.

StealthRider
05/13/2011, 05:32 PM
Non marine bulbs are around 6500 spectrum, which grows algae like crazy.
Replace the bulbs, use ro/di water, giant clean up crew and a media reactor with gfo.
This should sort the problem out very fast.
The tank is prob still cycling, or near the end so you will want to do this soon or you are missing out on the reef world.

Good luck

didz04
05/13/2011, 07:30 PM
Non marine bulbs are around 6500 spectrum, which grows algae like crazy.
Replace the bulbs, use ro/di water, giant clean up crew and a media reactor with gfo.
This should sort the problem out very fast.
The tank is prob still cycling, or near the end so you will want to do this soon or you are missing out on the reef world.

Good luck

Thanks that could be the main problem because as I have kept a clean nano reef before no algae issues and first times its really cropping up like this and only used T5 lights for a marine setup before. My screen is now smuthered with green algae after scrubbing off a few days back. The T8 lights are on a separate switch so not a problem.

Thanks to everyone replying to my thread and interesting debate going on lol don't worry carry on I will keep watching ;) also actually learning something from it.

chrissu
05/14/2011, 09:28 AM
What evidence do you have to support that 10-50x? That seems unlikely to me.



We're really getting off topic here. The member who started the thread titled it "All sorts of algae recently popping up?"

Trying running a modern, well designed, and properly sized ATS and test the algae production for yourself. I have, and I am telling you from experience that the evidence is very credible and easily confirmable by yourself - if you have the right ATS. In other words, not all ATS are the same. Just as all skimmers are not the same. Some skimmers produce much more skimate than others and some ATS produce much more algae than others. The one thing all of these devices have is they all have to be properly designed and sized for the individual aquarium. If you haven't this experience, you just don't know what you don't know.

With an efficient ATS, your algae problems will go away. The algae growing in your sump will out compete every last bit of algae growing in your display tank. I have all this algae in my sump - I never have any algae in my display tank. Not a bit. :dance:



http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=148625&d=1305385268

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=148627&d=1305385287

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=148626&d=1305385280

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=148628&stc=1&d=1305386671

Randy Holmes-Farley
05/14/2011, 09:49 AM
Trying running a modern, well designed, and properly sized ATS and test the algae production for yourself.

That's not really much of an answer to my question of what evidence you have that it is 10-50 x more effective.

In truth, such numbers are probably irrelevant if they focus on space used, even if they are accurate. A well run macroalgae refugium can certainly take out more than 50% of the excess nutrients in a reef tank, so no system of any type could possibly be more than twice as effective overall.

tmz
05/14/2011, 11:03 AM
Gee, I don't use an ats at this time and have no algae in my display either. How could that be? Glad you are enjoying your ats experience. Hope it contiues to work for you.

Suggesting various methods to help the original poster solve the algae problem including the ats is positve.
However, hyping one technique with unsubstantiated claims including: false numbers, lack of costs when it can be quite expensive, claims to a permanent solution and even magic at the expense of other valid techniques demonstrates a biased myopic tunneled view of things which is not helpful even if it springs from genuine enthusiasm. There is already a good thread on this technique for those who are interested in it and it has been cited.

If something is stated as a fact , 10 to 50x more effective for example, it clearly implies some measure was made. If it was not measured and it appears it wasn't than stating it that way is misleading.
BTW as for moving off topic , ats posts usually wind up in hijacked threads turning into ats testimonials . They usually start with over statements about the efficacy of this technique.When challenged ,a questioner is ultimately told they must use one to have a bonifide opinion . A blitz of technical detail ,relevant or not ,making an effort at an illusion of science or other hocus pocus usually follows. Next comes if it didn't work, you didn't use the right one or your technique was somehow flawed. Sometimes it even turns into a sales pitch for a particular product and there have been some folks shilling and misrepresenting equipment and ats paraphernelia they were selling on RC in the past.

chrissu
05/14/2011, 11:11 AM
Ah, but my friend, if you look back you have replaced my references to the term "volume" with your own term of "effective". Those are two very different things as you well know.

My experiences measuring well strained cheato export vs well strained micro algae export during a given time period are my own granted and while 10x is conservatively what I have realized, I probably overstated the 50x so I'll give you that.

Dr. Walter Adey from the Smithsonian is the scientist that proved the natural methods of ATS use, not I. No, I don't have an agenda, and it is usually some LFS employee that throws out the negative comments because they do have an agenda to protect the products that they do sell. If you haven't read up you can learn more about Dr Adey's work at the Smithsonian at http://walteradey.com.

Both Macro and Micro algae are able to take out more than 50% of excess nutrients. We're both are on the same team here and my hope is that others benefit from such good hearted discussions among fellow reefers.

bertoni
05/14/2011, 03:25 PM
Algae scrubbers can be effective; I think we've all heard about Dr Adey's systems. There are other approaches that get the job done, though. I haven't seen any cost estimates for running all the various options, which IMO is important. Also, some implementations of algae scrubbers are noisy and large, which has been an issue.

srusso
05/15/2011, 08:33 AM
Also, some implementations of algae scrubbers are noisy and large, which has been an issue.


That is a very uninformed comment, especially coming from a moderator.
Bad design effects any product... Well built algae scrubbers aren't noisy and aren't large. In fact if you know anything about algae scrubbers you would know a 5" inch x 5" inch screen is capable of filtering a 50 gallon tank...

I am so sick of the miss-information around algae scrubber!

And as for cost... do some research, your wrong again... I build my scrubber for less then $25...

HighlandReefer
05/15/2011, 08:47 AM
In fact if you know anything about algae scrubbers you would know a 5" inch x 5" inch screen is capable of filtering a 50 gallon tank...

First I have no experience with algae scrubbers but have heard good things about them. ;)

Your statement above has little meaning as far as the amount of nitrate/phosphate and other wastes that an algae scrubber can remove. Are you saying that a 50 gallon tank with over 100 ppm nitrate can be quickly reduced in say about 90 days, using that size algae scrubber and then maintained at the proper level without other interactions? You have proof of this? :)

srusso
05/15/2011, 09:05 AM
First I have no experience with algae scrubbers but have heard good things about them. ;)

Your statement above has little meaning as far as the amount of nitrate/phosphate and other wastes that an algae scrubber can remove. Are you saying that a 50 gallon tank with over 100 ppm nitrate can be quickly reduced in say about 90 days, using that size algae scrubber and then maintained at the proper level without other interactions? You have proof of this? :)

The statement was only referring to size (when he says "large")

The short answer is yes, build an algae scrubber and see for yourself. As for proof, its out there. I will start to gather a little of it for you later today. I am just about to leave and pickup a free 30 gallon tank and a hippo tang!! Cant wait!!!

An algae scrubber will not only remove it but it will bring it down to undetectable levels. But before you go and build one, Do your research.
I cant force you to believe me, and believing will only come with your fare share of studying. So hit the books, and when your done I know you will be converted. Once you go ATS you realize how hard everyone else is working and you don't have too...

What still not convinced... How about this FACT... A tank with a properly built Algae Scrubber will never need water changes when it comes to doing water changes to lower N and P.


Skimmers work by removing food from the water column before they can become nitrate and phosphates. What about the stuff thats already converted? You need the live rock for that, you need water chages for that...

Algae Scrubbers work by consuming nitrates and phosphates as they are made available.

See why water changes are needed for Skimmers and not for Algae Scrubbers?

This makes a lot of manufactures very mad... less salt needed, less need for expensive plastic cones... less need for chemicals, for bio balls, filter sock, and the like...
Which in turn makes them less money, and more angry... :headwalls:

I will leave some of the other major surprises up to you to find. :inlove:

HighlandReefer
05/15/2011, 09:13 AM
I do admit I have not researched much on algae scrubbers but the idea does interest me. Any links or info as examples would be appreciated. :)

Natural biological filtration does have its advantages.

One thing when you claim that water changes are not necessary & perhaps not running GAC that bothers me is the fact that algae & other possible bacteria, dinos, cyanobacteria.....etc, entrapped within the algae scrubber do produce some nasty toxins. Whether or not the algae scrubber completely reduces all the toxins involved concerns me to the point where I would not recommend no water changes or not running GAC. Also water changes do maintain other factors like micro-nutrients that may be important in maintain not only a reef tank but higher levels of algae in the scrubber. Iron levels come to mind as one important micro-nutrient for algae which may need to be dosed to maintain higher algae populations. :)

tmz
05/15/2011, 09:22 AM
Nonsense.

tmz
05/15/2011, 09:23 AM
Not your post Cliff, the one above it.

Steve Wright2
05/15/2011, 09:28 AM
Nonsense.

Not you Cliff



Steve

I think Jon Bertoni's post has been misinterpretted

Jon made the point that he had never seen any cost analysis for any of the typically used methods , so he was making the point from a financial perspective, Thus for example would Bio pellets, or Vodka or GFO or algae scrubbers be the most cost efficient means of achieving the N and P reduction?

Jons point was that in some cases algae scrubbers have been large and noisy, not that they all are

Steve

HighlandReefer
05/15/2011, 09:47 AM
FWIW, one can roughly calculate the amount of nitrate and phosphate an algae scrubber can remove by weighing the dry weight of the algae removed. The Redfield Ratio will provide an approximate answer. :)

If you compare the weight of macro-algae removed in a Refugium to an algae scrubber the amount removed should be fairly close. There are some species of macro-algae that are very efficient (Calerpa) and there are some specific species of micro-algae that may be more effective, but you would have to develop the specific micro-alge species.

IMO, the amount of nitrate/phosphate removed should be close when comparing the macro refugium to an algae scrubber given normal species are used. :)

HighlandReefer
05/15/2011, 10:00 AM
I might add, perhaps when nitrate and phosphate are undetectable, micro-algae may be able to out-compete macro-algae in this situation, especially when using macroalgae that don't do well at these very low nutrient levels. Calerpa does seem to do well in low nutrent systems where as macro like Chaetomorpha don't do very well in low nutrient systems.

Steve Wright2
05/15/2011, 10:10 AM
Specs of my tank, 130 liter sumpless

Resun 2000 lph
SunSun 3000 lph

1) Not enough flow - SunSun 23 turnover - Resun 15 turnover
The Resun is a tiny power head so I don't think its doing 2000 lph comparing it to the SunSun ph. The SunSun PH was more than enough in my 60 lt.


Please Any help and advise on what I should do and possibly buy?

Thanks

although I do not believe its related to the algae issue - if you have cyno then that may be more attributable to the flow issue

I have experience of both models of wavemaker you are using

The Sunsun units - very good IMHO , they generate a lot of water movement
and whilst I have not tested them, I would be inclined to believe the claims on flow rate

The Resun on the other hand

I have 4 tanks each 18 x 15 x 12 set up and started with the Resun2000 in all 4 of them
hardly produced a ripple on any of the 4 tanks to be honest

so I upgraded to the larger size resun, supposedly 4000lph - not much better IMHO

I then tried a single Sumsum in one of the tanks - 3000 lph model - and the difference was amazing (To powerful for my needs, but at least it proved something to me

If I had only had one of them - I could dismiss it as a poor one
but I had 4 of them and they all performed equally terribly

Steve

Randy Holmes-Farley
05/15/2011, 01:44 PM
What still not convinced... How about this FACT... A tank with a properly built Algae Scrubber will never need water changes when it comes to doing water changes to lower N and P.

Good. Except that isn't ever why I recommend water changes. That system, like many others, will suffer from every other reason to do such changes.

I'm not going to get into a debate over algae scrubbing, but I think some of the claims are potentially misleading. :)

bertoni
05/15/2011, 03:28 PM
I am so sick of the miss-information around algae scrubber!

I agree, which is why I have to point out that your posts are wrong. There are definitely large and loud scrubbers out there, and the cost of building is only a tiny part of the cost of running a scrubber. The lighting likely is the dominant cost over time. I believe Adey's scrubbers used the dump bucket approach, which is definitely noisy.

I think algae scrubbers are interesting, but there are a lot of other designs that seem to work well, too.

srusso
05/15/2011, 05:31 PM
I agree, which is why I have to point out that your posts are wrong. There are definitely large and loud scrubbers out there, and the cost of building is only a tiny part of the cost of running a scrubber. The lighting likely is the dominant cost over time. I believe Adey's scrubbers used the dump bucket approach, which is definitely noisy.

I think algae scrubbers are interesting, but there are a lot of other designs that seem to work well, too.

The dump bucket style algae scrubbers are very load and very large... However this style was invented in the 70's and by no means considered a modern scrubber. Please consider looking into the modern approach. In the end people will try what they will.

HighlandReefer
05/15/2011, 05:44 PM
Removing nitrate/phosphate is one thing, but removing or breaking down dissolved organics is another thing, in a reef tank. Usually bacteria are better (than algae) at breaking down the dissolved organics from the research I have read for waste water management. It is difficult (if not impossible) to test for all the various dissolved organics in a reef tank and the content is basically unknown. It is possible that some algae can better remove some of the dissolved organics. :)

Perhaps a better solution to use for waste management in a reef tank is to combine different techniques developed like using an algae scrubber or refugium with macro-algae with carbon dosing to promote greater bacterial populations. This also includes a good skimmer, water changes and running GAC IMO. Usually combinations of methods work best at things when you look at research and equipment used and tested in the past. ;)

FWIW, combinations of techniques is what many hobbyists like Randy use, as do I. The unknown factors are greater than the known factors in reef aquariums. :)

HighlandReefer
05/15/2011, 06:07 PM
Another thing to keep in mind is if your phosphate level is quite high, then using micro-algae or macro-algae will not be able to reduce phosphate well. This is due to the fact that algae use quite a bit less phosphate than they do nitrate to grow. You will need to use GFO or some other means of reducing high phosphate levels. The phosphate is constantly added by fish foods in large amounts, so if a hobbyist feeds quite a bit, they may need to use a GFO type product to keep phosphate in line. :)

There are a lot of hobbyists and as many different ways of maintaining a reef tank. On solution is not going to work for all. ;)

2thdeekay
05/15/2011, 06:57 PM
if your phosphate level is quite high, then using micro-algae or macro-algae will not be able to reduce phosphate well. This is due to the fact that algae use quite a bit less phosphate than they do nitrate to grow. You will need to use GFO or some other means of reducing high phosphate levels. The phosphate is constantly added by fish foods in large amounts, so if a hobbyist feeds quite a bit, they may need to use a GFO type product to keep phosphate in line. :)

There are a lot of hobbyists and as many different ways of maintaining a reef tank. On solution is not going to work for all. ;)


Not to take sides, but Cliff makes a good point, and it applies to other methods of exporting N & P, including using organic carbon to drive bacterial growth, or even skimming. A systems rate of denitrification can also be a factor in causing a method to be limited by N. Certainly additional N can be dosed, or a PO4 remover used.

My point is, there isn't a single 'do-all holy grail' method in reefing. It's prudent to be open to mixing methods, AND be skeptical of any holy grail claims when it comes to methodology or products. I've enjoyed reading this thread, thanks! :)

didz04
05/16/2011, 10:40 AM
although I do not believe its related to the algae issue - if you have cyno then that may be more attributable to the flow issue

I have experience of both models of wavemaker you are using

The Sunsun units - very good IMHO , they generate a lot of water movement
and whilst I have not tested them, I would be inclined to believe the claims on flow rate

The Resun on the other hand

I have 4 tanks each 18 x 15 x 12 set up and started with the Resun2000 in all 4 of them
hardly produced a ripple on any of the 4 tanks to be honest

so I upgraded to the larger size resun, supposedly 4000lph - not much better IMHO

I then tried a single Sumsum in one of the tanks - 3000 lph model - and the difference was amazing (To powerful for my needs, but at least it proved something to me

If I had only had one of them - I could dismiss it as a poor one
but I had 4 of them and they all performed equally terribly

Steve

Yeah they no way produce 2000lph I think its due to their size because they are tiny lol. I used to run a single 3000lph SunSun PH in my 13g nano and it was more than enough never had any cyano issues.

However the Resun's are small enough to fit inside a 25lt jerry tub so they are useful in mixing salts.

On ultimatereef a few have offered to do straight trades for my Resun for their SunSun PH, but someones offered a 5000lph similar to the SunSun and also very quiet so it will be the better option for me. Rather have more then enough flow than just about enough :spin1:

I was wondering when I get the powerhead and since I'm going to have around 8000lph of flow in a 32" long setup, will it work if I placed both PH on the right hand side screen higher up the tank and faced them straight so there bouncing back off the left side screen. Like shown in this video, will it work for me but of course on a much smaller scale?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh6Cz_H8Uhg&feature=related

I have also enjoyed reading through all the comments its a very interesting topic :rollface:

Thanks

didz04
05/20/2011, 12:04 PM
My new SunSun 3000 powerhead has arrived this morning, hopefully it will fix my cyano problem.

didz04
06/04/2011, 06:11 PM
Just thought I'd mention a couple of weeks after adding in my new power head, the red slime/hair algae and cyano has completely disappeared. Thats definitely progress for me :)