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View Full Version : What's wrong with my SPS?


sgrosenb
05/25/2011, 08:20 PM
Hey all,

I've had my tank up for about 1.5 years now. I have some SPS that are doing great (green birdsnest, bird of paradise, mandarin setosa, multiple Caps) but I'm having trouble with most of my other SPS. I can't seem to keep them alive, or if I do, they often wash out and then over a period of a few months they die. They start to lose their tissue from the bottom up, and eventually just turn white. Sometimes if I order a frag, it happens within a few days, or sometimes one will be doing fine for a few months, and then the color washes out, and then it dies from the bottom up. I've had multiple Oregon Blue Torts that have died this way - when I get them they're nice and dark blue, then they start to turn more clearish-blue, and then they start to lose their tissue on the bottom.

Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong? My specs are below. I feel like everything is in order, but I just can't seem to keep a lot of SPS.

Tank: 156g 5x2x2 Oceanic
Phosphate: Undetectable
Nitrate: Undetectable
Calcium: 420-430 (constantly)
Mag: 1450-1500 (A little high - but it hasn't been always)
Alk: 9.6-10.4 (constantly)
Ph: 8.0-8.2 (constantly)
Lights: Currently have LED's, but this happened with my 250W MH's too
Skimmer: Bubble King 200 External
45 Gallon Sump w/ Fuge
Phosban Reactor w/ Rowaphos
Currently Dosing Reef Biofuel, MicroBacter, and 3-part Mag, Calc and Alk

For flow I have 2 Tunze 6105's that I've kept on pretty low (30%), so my flow hasn't been extremely strong, but it's been decent. Could this potentially have an effect?

Also - I do weekly water changes, and historically I've done pretty big ones (usually 25% per week). I understand this is a bit high - maybe that could be bad too? I've been using ReefCrystals for the last year or so.

Thanks for the help - I welcome all comments / questions. Thanks!

neoalchemist74
05/25/2011, 08:44 PM
I think your alk is too high. When using a pro-biotic method like Micro Bacter 7 you really need to maintain stable alk closer to natural sea water which is around 7.5...8 at the most. alot of people have similar issues when running bacterial methods especially when thier nutrient levels become nearly undetecable. Also upping that flow a little probably wont hurt.

sgrosenb
05/25/2011, 08:54 PM
Thanks neo - I just started the biofuel and microbacter about 2 months ago, and this has been happening for much longer, but I'll definitely let that fall while I'm dosing. I'm not sure that's the cause, though, as I've been losing corals for a while. Any other thoughts? Thanks

tmgrash
05/25/2011, 09:14 PM
I would up the flow. I would also runs some carbon (not on an everyday basis, but to eliminate any heavy metals or chemicals that might have inadvertently been introduced into the system)

You haven't noticed any aefw bite marks, have you?

How are the WC parameters compared to your tank params. Weekly seems like a bit much.

sgrosenb
05/25/2011, 09:34 PM
Definitely no aefw. I've upped the flow, and have run carbon on and off over the past year. But could carbon or flow really be the solution? What effect would heavy metals have? And how would they have gotten in there? Thanks again for all they help

neoalchemist74
05/25/2011, 09:57 PM
I'd suggest poly filter over carbon, it color changes to reflect what your pulling out of the water so you know if your actually removing any contaminant. I agree that 25% weekly might be a little aggressive. Water changes of that volume weekly can swing your alk around a bit often which sensitive sps like torts don't respond well to.

neoalchemist74
05/25/2011, 10:00 PM
You might want to check for stray voltage, just to make sure you dont have an unsealed heater or a cracked pump housing or any other hidden corroding parts.

sgrosenb
05/25/2011, 10:08 PM
Ok - that's great advice - thanks. It's got to have something to do with the fact that my monti's, birdsnests, caps, setosa and lps are all great but my stags and torts don't do well at all. How do I check for stray voltage? Would that affect other things besides my torts and stags?

sgrosenb
05/25/2011, 10:14 PM
Also - what type (brand) of poly filter should I get? Any recommendations? Thanks!

sahin
05/26/2011, 01:44 AM
I feel that your system may be too clean and you need some nitrates in the tank. I had this issue in my last tank, and had the same issue in my current tank. However in my current tank I didnt let it get to the point of corals dying. As soon as corals got too pale I started to dose Amino acids. Helped a lot and within two weeks pale SPS got thier colours back.

And yes, if you are dosing carbon/MB7 you need a lower alk or it can cause STN/RTN on your corals.

thelostrican
05/26/2011, 04:01 AM
I am nitpicking at your system, but from what you posted you have a great set up, without seeing it, I think you need more flow, your alk seems fine, as long as you don't see burnt tips, are you acclimatating the sps?

You have leds? Which kind? What was your mh set up? Were are you placing the sps?
I would run carbon 24/7 to rule out toxins etc. I won't hurt anything.

Post pics I am sucker for them, and you seem to have a good set up...

Nexenn
05/26/2011, 09:39 AM
Up your flow, that made the difference for my tank, I couldn't keep sps until I got an mp40

Tortuga78
05/26/2011, 10:19 AM
You might want to check for stray voltage, just to make sure you dont have an unsealed heater or a cracked pump housing or any other hidden corroding parts.

How do you check for stray voltage? And as far as hidden hidden corroding part contamination, is there a test kit to check for it? Thanks!

neoalchemist74
05/27/2011, 10:38 AM
Not really away to test for cotamminants. as for stray voltage post a thread with that question. theres probably some better people than me that can help with that.

rivahodges
05/27/2011, 10:43 AM
+1 for increasing the flow.

LifeAquatic
05/27/2011, 10:57 AM
I feel that your system may be too clean and you need some nitrates in the tank. I had this issue in my last tank, and had the same issue in my current tank. However in my current tank I didnt let it get to the point of corals dying. As soon as corals got too pale I started to dose Amino acids. Helped a lot and within two weeks pale SPS got thier colours back.

And yes, if you are dosing carbon/MB7 you need a lower alk or it can cause STN/RTN on your corals.

Im in agreement with this. I would check that your light schedule not be to long and that you maybe cut back a little on water changes. Assuming tank Bio-Load is light...keeping lights on for 7,8,9 hrs combined with frequent water changes may starve your corals. This might account for your pail colors followed by death.

Grant W
05/27/2011, 11:07 AM
+1 on the alk being on the high side and also you are probably a bit too clean, the corals need a bit of nitrates and phos. I would let my alk drift down too about the 8 range and reduce water changes to like 10% weekly. The numbers I run at are nitrates about 5 and phos at about.003 and I have nice color on all sps and they grow like weeds. Hope this helps.

neoalchemist74
05/27/2011, 12:34 PM
You mentioned that your running Gfo. I believe it was Rowaphos.You want to make sure your not running it too aggressively. Some people report problems resulting from running too much flow through the reactor which can cause fines that can cause a negative reaction to certain corals.

sgrosenb
05/27/2011, 04:42 PM
Thanks guys. I do run a lot of gfo, and a decent amount of flow through it. I will lower that big time. I'll also slow the light period a bit and lower my water changes. Thanks for all the help all. I'll repost in a month or 2 and let everyone know how it looks.

neoalchemist74
05/27/2011, 10:15 PM
:thumbsup:

sgrosenb
06/10/2011, 06:29 PM
Hey all - still having troubles. I attached some pictures so you can see what I'm talking about. These have started to STN, taking anywhere from 2 weeks to a few months to start. I'm really curious what you guys think is going on. I just can't figure it out, and it doesn't seem like anything is wrong with my tank. I'd really like to get to the bottom of this, as it is frustrating to keep losing these corals!!!

http://reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=4607&pictureid=31840

http://reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=4607&pictureid=31841

http://reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=4607&pictureid=31842

http://reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=4607&pictureid=31843

http://reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=4607&pictureid=31844

jimrawr
06/10/2011, 06:33 PM
Kind of in the same boat as you so I am tagging along.

sgrosenb
06/10/2011, 06:38 PM
Also please note that I ordered a Hanna Phosphate meter and the Poly Filter, and the Hanna read 0.05 ppm, and the poly filter didn't have any coloring on it after 2 days of being in the tank. Thanks.

mike810
06/10/2011, 10:11 PM
feed them...i was in the same boat as you. params solid but couldn't keep any sps alive for long. Pale out followed by stn from the tips and base. Zeo solved my problem and I couldn't be happier, Wish I started zeo from the start. Just pellets, carbon and zeo for me. No GFO Good Luck

sgrosenb
06/11/2011, 10:29 AM
feed them...i was in the same boat as you. params solid but couldn't keep any sps alive for long. Pale out followed by stn from the tips and base. Zeo solved my problem and I couldn't be happier, Wish I started zeo from the start. Just pellets, carbon and zeo for me. No GFO Good Luck

Thank Mike - what do you mean by Zeo? Do you mean the Zeo method? I am currently dosing Reef Biofuel and Microbacter, and began running a bunch of carbon. I also run GFO. Are you suggesting to stop the GFO and start dosing something else? Please advise. Thanks for the help!

sahin
06/11/2011, 11:50 AM
Let us know how things progress. It would be good to try and narrow down at least a few possibilities as to why this was happening. Keep a record of all the changes you make etc, it will be a learning process for you, but may also help others.

mike810
06/11/2011, 08:04 PM
Thank Mike - what do you mean by Zeo? Do you mean the Zeo method? I am currently dosing Reef Biofuel and Microbacter, and began running a bunch of carbon. I also run GFO. Are you suggesting to stop the GFO and start dosing something else? Please advise. Thanks for the help!

yes i was talking about the zeo additives. I would not suggest stopping GFO if you have a phosphate problem. I'm not running GFO because my biopellets keeps my phosphates low. I would go easy on the carbon and GFO. If you're running biofuel and mb7 then I'm fairly certain that your sps aren't getting enough nutrients (If all other params are stable).

Just a couple of months ago I was in the same boat as you. Running carbon and GFO changing them out every month. also dosing vodka and mb7 and couldn't understand why my sps would be pale and stn. This lasted for more than a year. Then I started feeding my corals with zeo additives and things turned around quickly.

Corals that once had signs of stn are now making a recovery. Some faster than others.For a year my sps had little to zero growth. Now I can see them growing :dance:

Not saying zeo is a cure all but if your params are solid and no foreign matter is in your tank then I think it can help. I'm a firm believer

sgrosenb
06/11/2011, 08:08 PM
Thanks mike - do you have a link to where you usually buy stuff? And maybe a list of what you use? I'm kind of out of ideas so whatever you suggest I'm definitely up for trying. Thanks for the help

Faisal1976us
06/12/2011, 06:19 PM
check your PO4 level with Henna low range meter , i think you have hi po4 level in your tank .

reefkeeper2
06/12/2011, 06:30 PM
What kind of carbon are you using and how much? Is it ROX carbon?

PasserAngelfish
06/12/2011, 11:14 PM
if i were you,i shall check filtration equipment to make sure that they are enough, and check closely with NO2,NO3.

shaggss
06/13/2011, 12:37 AM
I do run a lot of gfo, and a decent amount of flow through it. I will lower that big time. lower my water changes.

Definitely do as above, too much GFO is not good and cut back WC to 10% every two weeks.

As others have said Alk is too high as well, 7-8 is better.

Plus feed them. If you haven't got the food then feed your fish more in the mean time.

Also, remember nothing GOOD changes in a reef quickly. You need to let your system stabilise after making changes.

I recently had STN but have done all of the above and the corals are growing back nicely. Be patient and give it time.

Good luck and HTHs!!

SPSEMPIRE
06/13/2011, 04:11 AM
My suggestion is that you remove the Rowaphos and stop dosing the Reef Biofuel, MicroBacter. The only thing that is a must have is the Ca, and dKH supplements.

sgrosenb
06/13/2011, 11:21 AM
Thanks for all the help guys - I'm backing off my GFO and have upped the flow a bit. In response to the high P04, I've tested with 2 different kits (Salifert and Hanna Low-range) and have tested 0.05 ppm, so I don't think PO4 is an issue. One thing I didn't mention was that the only thing I've been feeding the tank for the past 1+ year is PE Mysis shrimp. I'm not sure if that's enough, but maybe it's not? Are there other coral foods out there I should try? I only feed my fish every other day, and it's only PE Mysis.

As for the Carbon, I'm using Brightwell Pellet Carbonit-P in a phosban reactor.

Also, I'm going to check for Copper in my system (just to be sure - I'm not even sure what copper's effect would be, but I want to rule everything out).

Any other thoughts, or thoughts on my feeding, are really appreciated!

neoalchemist74
06/13/2011, 04:34 PM
Alot or people that run low nutrient systems use amino acids as coral food suppliment for sps. as for gfo, Ive found that there is a corellation between agressive gfo use, high alk, low nutrients and stn.I really think that if you slow the flow in your gfo reactor and allow your alk to drop below 8 and continue as you are otherwise you should see improvement. I'd be wary of feeding more. If you do, remember you are trying to be less agressive with gfo and you'll likely end up with problems on the other end of the spectrum with a po4 increase and algea issues or just more negative responses form corals responding to elevated po4.

Phsycodelic81
06/13/2011, 07:28 PM
the nitrates are to low and the alk is to high for sps

Alitoo_81
08/30/2011, 07:34 AM
hi, I have the same problem. I have running 2 biopellets reactors and what we realy have in commun is that we feed every other day. I am starting to feed 2 times per day. My problem exploded when I did a 50 % water change. are you seeing progres in your tank?

neoalchemist74
08/30/2011, 10:18 AM
I just wanted to mention That on two differant occasions I've found supposedly sealed magnets corroding away in my system. Cause of major problems.

Jmonks
08/30/2011, 10:55 AM
having same problem, tagging along.

Sensei ClamMan
08/30/2011, 12:57 PM
feed them...i was in the same boat as you. params solid but couldn't keep any sps alive for long. Pale out followed by stn from the tips and base. Zeo solved my problem and I couldn't be happier, Wish I started zeo from the start. Just pellets, carbon and zeo for me. No GFO Good Luck

how long have you been running the pellets? I'm having similar problems, my pellets seemed to do very little though. I feed the corals 3-4 times per week but no zeo. Is zeo the key to pellets? This is my second attempt at them with negative results.