Should I dose vinegar?

[bobbychullo]

Hi. Here are some details on my tank.
been up for over a year. 34 gallons. skim aggressively, harvest chaeto weekly. polyfilter in overflow 24/7. weekly 5 gal water changes. LPS, zoas/palys and SPS. 2 fish, yellow assessors. 3 nass snails and lots of collinista, mini brittles, bristles etc, which i think helps me because i think i feed pretty heavy for the stage of growth my tank is at. i walk the line of phos and nitrates. i know theres some in there even tho i test nitrates undetectable and phos is .01, barely detectable, i get light bryopsis and green film on glass the night after i feed my corals sometimes and will get random stuff on the sand here and there but all easy to take care of. the only real algae problem i have is bubble algae, 2 kinds at this point :/

tmz and randy may remember giving me some advice regarding vitamin c in another thread, i've been using the brightwell aq. brand for about a month now to help with some zoas that didn't look so good. the zoas recovered and all LPS look great. I was thinking about changing over to vinegar since there's less chance to possibly irritate LPS and the research you guys have done regarding vodka / vinegar seems more reliable...

either way, i've been slowing down my vit.c dosing and , FINALLY THE QUESTION lol, I was wondering if i even need to dose vinegar or should i leave my tank alone since i really don't have any huge algae problems? i've done the research and feel i've got a handle on the ins and outs. vodka is 0.1 ml per gallon (net volume), vinegar is X8 (i figured i'm somewhere in the 16ml per day range on vinegar with est. water volume of 24 or 25 gal. to start) slowly ramp dose and test, when phos drops, keep dose or scale back slightly. watch for algae/cyano/white film or hopefully no cloud, livestock health... etc etc

i was dosing vit c because i was having random issues with my zoas. they have recovered and it seems that it is more than likely due their need for bacterioplankton and the vit c/carbon source helping them get it? tmz or randy please correct any errors in my explanation :)

sorry for the novel lol if you've made it to the end please advise...

short version: should i dose vinegar, even if i have very little algae issues? in other words, is it beneficial to the tank even if the tank seems pretty healthy already?

[HighlandReefer]

"short version: should i dose vinegar, even if i have very little algae issues? in other words, is it beneficial to the tank even if the tank seems pretty healthy already?"


Lipogenesis in the intact coral Pocillopora capitata and its isolated zooxanthellae: Evidence for a light-driven carbon cycle between symbiont and host
J. S. Patton, S. Abraham and A. A. Benson

http://www.springerlink.com/content/x1542137913mh3h1/

Abstract:

Surface tissue of the reef coral Pocillopora capitata contained approximately 34% lipid on a dry weight basis. Of this, 75% was storage lipid (wax ester and triglyceride) and 25% structural (phospholipid, galactolipid, etc.). Based on chlorophyll a: lipid ratios of intact coral and isolated zooxanthellae, it was determined that over 90% of the storage lipid resided in the host tissue. One half of the structural lipids was found in the host and the other in the symbiotic algae. Gentle fractionation of coral tissue indicated that zooxanthellae possessed less than 14% of the total coral protein. Coral tips and isolated zooxanthellae were incubated with sodium acetate-1-14C in light and dark to obtain lipogenic rates and proportions of fatty acids and lipid classes synthesized. The rate of lipid synthesis from acetate-1-14C by intact coral was stimulated three-fold in the light (1200 lux), which indicated that the majority of coral lipogenesis occurred in the zooxanthellae. Intact coral triglycerides contained ca. 68% of the 14C-activity and wax esters ca. 21%. Zooxanthellae isolated by the Water Pik technique synthesized negligible amounts of wax ester, which implied that wax ester synthesis was a property of the animal tissue. Isolated zooxanthellae and intact coral synthesized identical triglyceride fatty acids from acetate-1-14C. This study provides evidence for a carbon cycle between host and symbiont whereby the zooxanthellae take up host-derived carbon (probably in the form of acetate), synthesize fatty acids using their photosynthetically derived energy, and return the lipid to the host where it appears as wax ester and triglyceride.

[HighlandReefer]

Acetate incorporation into the lipids of the anemone Anthopleura elegantissima and its associated zooxanthellae
R. S. Blanquet, J. C. Nevenzel and A. A. Benson

http://www.springerlink.com/content/n2767755h5940r25/

Abstract
Anthopleura elegantissima containing zooxanthellae, as well as isolated zooxanthellae, incubated with acetate-1-14C under both light and dark conditions readily incorporate radioactivity into their total lipid pools. In both cases, the specific activity was greatly increased in the light. Dark-incubated anemones and isolated zooxanthellae incorporate activity predominantly into polar lipid; the remainder being present principally in the triglyceride moiety. Light-incubated organisms, however, show a dramatic redistribution of isotope towards greatly increased triglyceride and was ester incorporation, with a concomitant drop in polar lipid. onder light conditions, 70 to 75% of the radioactivity found in the fatty acids of the total zooxanthellae lipid was present in hexadecanoic (16:0) and octadecenoic (18:1) fatty acids. These are also the two major fatty acids by mass. Octadecanoic acid (18:0) is less than 5% by mass. Isotope incorporation patterns suggest that octadecenoic acids arise by elongation of hexadecenoic acids and that this conversion is blocked in the dark. Isotope incorporation patterns for anemones suggest that fatty acids, primarily in the form of saturated or monoenoic fatty acids, are translocated from algal to animal cells. No activity was found in either octadecadienoic (18:2) or octadecatrienoic (18:3) acids. The significance of these data is discussed.

[HighlandReefer]

Zooxanthellae providing assimilatory power for the incorporation of exogenous acetate in Heteroxenia fuscescens (Cnidaria: Alcyonaria)
D. Schlichter, B. P. Kremer and A. Svoboda

http://www.springerlink.com/content/p23682t4j81knl75/

Abstract
The soft coral Heteroxenia fuscescens (Ehrb.) and its isolated zooxanthellae (endosymbiotic dinoflagellates) were investigated with particular regard to uptake and utilization of exogenously supplied 14C-acetate in the light and in the dark. The incorporation of 14C from 14C-acetate into the host tissue and into the zooxanthellae was consistently much higher in the light than in the dark. The incorporated 14C-acetate was rapidly metabolized by the host and algae and was recovered from different assimilate fractions. The major proportion of radiocarbon from metabolized 14C-acetate was located in host tissue. The CHCl3-soluble fraction composed of diverse lipids showed the strongest 14C-labelling. Zooxanthellae isolated prior to incubation accounted for about 80% of the acetate incorporation recorded for zooxanthellae in situ (in vivo). It is concluded from a comparison of acetate incorporation and conversion under light and dark conditions that most of the lipid reserve of the host tissue originates from fatty acids, which are synthesized within the algal symbionts and are then translocated to the heterotrophic partner via extrusion. The acetate units needed for lipid synthesis are obtained by absorption of free acetate from dissolved organic matter (DOM) in the seawater as well as by photosynthetic assimilation of inorganic carbon. Thus, in H. fuscescens, lipogenesis is operated as a light-driven process to which the zooxanthellae considerably contribute assimilatory power by performing fatty acid synthesis and translocation of lipid compounds to their intracellular environment (host cell). A metabolic scheme is proposed to account for the different pathways of carbon conversion observed in H. fuscescens. The incubations took place in August 1980 and the analytical part from October 1980 to January 1984

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not sure if you need or will benefit from vinegar dosing. I would primarily recommend it as one of multiple nutrient reduction methods. If that is not needed, then I'm not sure there will be any benefit (although there may be). If you are looking for any other effects, trying it and seeing what happens is probably the only way to know if it might work.

[bobbychullo]

thanks Cliff and Randy. I will take a look at those articles a little later when I have time.


I may just try it and start with a very low dose and see what happens :)

thanks again!

[tmz]

I agree with Randy. You may not need vinegar or any other organic carbon source if nitrates are low without it and nuisance algae is not an issue.
Since you have been dosing organic carbon (ascorbic acid) the low nutrient levels are likely in part realted to iyour current tank conditions.
Since zoanthus seem to benefit from the ascorbic acid ,perhaps from the organic carbon or acetate as a breakdown product somewhere along the anaerobic digestion line , switching from ascorbic acid to vinegar( acetic acid) incrementally to an equal amount of vinegar might be a good thing to try. 1 gram of ascorbic acid powder should equal roughly 20ml of white vinegar in terms of organic carbon content. This appraoch should keep your total organic carbon relatively constant and avoid adding monomers(sugars) while providing some potentially useful acetate.
In my opinion, the case for benefits unique to to Vit C for zoanthus other than as a carbon source has not been made. My experience and that of others with glucose has been troubling.So I don't use vitamin C but do get very good long term zoanthus growth while using vodka and vinegar.

[bberg16]

what about using vodka?
i heard some people use it

[tmz]

I've used vodka and vinegar for over two years with no discernible ill effects. Roughly 70% of the organic carbon content dosed is ethanol(vodka) with the remaining 30%(vinegar). A switch to this mix from just vodka dosing helped eliminate a bit of patchy cyano which was occurring on a sandbed in a single frag tank in the system.

[bobbychullo]

thanks Tom. all of your help and everyone else is really appreciated. you can read the forums but a lot of times its that one specific question you have that never gets answered.

my plan was to slowly ween off the vit c and maybe see how the tank looks without dosing any carbon source for a bit. my biggest fear is my zoas will begin to recede again, its really only one colony but all the others showed signs of faster growth. instead of one or two polyps forming, it's 4 or 6 starting at one time.

i change my mind so much regarding my tank lol. i'll make a decision 5 times in one day, going back and forth. this hobby has taught me a lot about patience and thoroughly thinking an idea through from every angle before starting any kind of project or undertaking...

nothing makes me happier than when my tank's inhabitants are happy :o

[bobbychullo]

i meant to add, i will probably end up dosing vinegar at some point. I will move to vodka if needed but i don't think it'll be at this point but you never know. i'll probably work towards a ultra low maintenance dose and see what happens.

I haven't read the articles Cliff posted yet but by glancing at the abstracts i take it acetate is beneficial to coral (their zooxanthellae) so its seems like its worth a shot.

[tmz]

Vinegar should be fine. I started with vodka and with a partial mix of vinegar things work for me so no need for me to switch off more vodka for vinegar at this point.

[bobbychullo]

i went and grabbed some potassium, iron and iodine tests, just to see where i stand. Iodine and potassium were dead on but it looked like my iron was real low, barely showed any color. the directions say to shoot for .10ppm and the kit is +/-.05 lol...

i'm going to finish up on my vit c dosing in a week or two and see how the tank responds. i'll start vinegar soon after.

thanks for the advice. i'd be nowhere without it...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Forget that iron recommendation and kit. NSW iron cannot be detected with a kit. Surface NSW levels are closer to 0.000006 ppm. 0.1 ppm is not a goal, IMO.

I've never seen any reliable efects reported for iron aside from macroalgae.

This has more:

First Iron Article: Macroalgae and Dosing Recommendations
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/chem.htm

Second Iron Article: Iron: A Look at Organisms Other than Macroalgae
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2002/chem.htm

[HighlandReefer]

I agree with what Randy and Tom have posted.

You first need to remove all algae and detritus from your tank and then keep on top of it.

Perhaps once the algae is gone or reduced enough, the vinegar will stimulate more bacterial growth where the algae is currently growing, but keep in mind that algae produce chemical warfare agents to maintain the areas they are established on. Continually removing the algae will help bacteria to take over the algae territory. ;)

FWIW, perhaps the algae can utilize the extra carbon from vinegar or vodka as well, which could stimulate the growth of the algae. I have seen no research to support this either way. The acetate does seem to stimulate organisms within the coral mucal layers around the coral. What the acetate stimulates in the mucal layer, IE: the bacteria, dinos or perhaps other organisms within the mucal layers I have not seen research to segregate them out. :)

[bobbychullo]

Forget that iron recommendation and kit. NSW iron cannot be detected with a kit. Surface NSW levels are closer to 0.000006 ppm. 0.1 ppm is not a goal, IMO.

I've never seen any reliable efects reported for iron aside from macroalgae.

This has more:

First Iron Article: Macroalgae and Dosing Recommendations
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/chem.htm

Second Iron Article: Iron: A Look at Organisms Other than Macroalgae
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2002/chem.htm

copy that, Tom, Cliff and Randy!
:D

[lastduke]

Rob, did you get any progress on your vinegar dosing? I have the same setup and fighting with white fuzzy algae for almost a year. P and N are always close to zero but this algae are so hard to beat.