Algae Scrubber Advanced

[maglofster]

We have on this forum (imho) an excellent thread - Algae Scrubber Basics - created by srusso (thanks man!). Now I think it could be wise to start a thread about the more advanced topics in Algae Turf Scrubbing.

For the theory as it stands, all basic questions, designs and other basic stuff about ATS, go HERE. (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1977420)

Since I'm an avid aquarium DIY nerd, and have been for 20 years, I recently jumped on the ATS-wagon to see what it would do for me. So far I have experience from five different versions. Versions that are open, closed and with CFL, T5:s as light plus all sorts of different media to grow the algae. One could say there are as many versions as there are people scrubbing.

One thing is for sure - this is a method that not many people use compared to other more proven methods. Maybe it will rise in popularity in the future or maybe it will be forgotten over the next "flavor of the month". But I think it's time for a collective scientific approach. I think we need to discuss and try out different methods and approaches to scrubbing in a scientific way to see what is good, what is bad and where this method can be refined.

One might look at the open source movement of GNU / Linux - They have enjoyed tremendous success due to the fact that they work as a collective (well mostly) all over the world. I think we have an opportunity to do this as well. Crowd-sourcing to gather data, draw conclusions and figure out solutions to problems.

Some topics I think could be included in this thread:

* How can we be scientific about ATS and provide empirical data to draw the correct conclusions?
* For what kind of tanks can an ATS be beneficial or dangerous?
* Light sources - can LED be more than experimental for ATS?
* Skimmers in cooperation with scrubbers - Advantages and disadvantages.
* Scrubbers and carbon dosing - Competition or cooperation?
* Approaches to achieve 3D-scrubbing in both open and closed designs
* Ozone and UV combined with an ATS - good or bad?
* Effects on livestock - Good and bad
* Long term usage of an ATS and how to collect data about it?
* How to avoid crashes - what are the safeguards?

This thread is NOT intended as a "it doesn't work" *flame on* kind of thread. If you wish something like that, please start your own thread and watch it go down in flames. (pun intended) :love1: Also, English is not my native language, so feel free to correct my language, spelling and such.

Let's get going! :wave:

[salty joe]

I think photoinhibition would be interesting to look at. Everybody seems to run their scrubber lit for 18 hr a day. Maybe in some setups this is ideal. I suspect that with intensely lit scrubbers this is not the case. An O2 senser plumbed to the scrubber drain would reveal what is going on.

I think two scrubbers where only one is lit at a time would be the most efficient use of electricity. Use the O2 senser to determine when photoinhibition begins and set a light timer accordingly. So when photoinhibition begins the light goes out on that scubber and the other scrubber gets lit up. On the runup to photoinhibition, growth is fantastic, then growth drops like a rock, no matter how much light (electricity) you throw at it.

I base my opinion on this link http--www.int-res.com-articles-meps-134-m134p207.pdf

It is a study of Cheato, but it is mentioned that most marine algae behave in a similar manner.

[salty joe]

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/134/m134p207.pdf

[redneckgearhead]

I think photoinhibition would be interesting to look at. Everybody seems to run their scrubber lit for 18 hr a day. Maybe in some setups this is ideal. I suspect that with intensely lit scrubbers this is not the case. An O2 senser plumbed to the scrubber drain would reveal what is going on.

I think two scrubbers where only one is lit at a time would be the most efficient use of electricity. Use the O2 senser to determine when photoinhibition begins and set a light timer accordingly. So when photoinhibition begins the light goes out on that scubber and the other scrubber gets lit up. On the runup to photoinhibition, growth is fantastic, then growth drops like a rock, no matter how much light (electricity) you throw at it.

I base my opinion on this link http--www.int-res.com-articles-meps-134-m134p207.pdf

It is a study of Cheato, but it is mentioned that most marine algae behave in a similar manner.

Ive read a similar idea, so on my scrubber I started to run my lights on 4 hour intervals off for 4 hours, I have since raised it to 5 and 3 and It seems to get a little better growth now. But since this thread is being started maybe I should start adjusting the light schedule and measuring how much growth I can get with each one. And where would we get an 02 sensor for saltwater?

[salty joe]

Kind of pricey, but here.

http://www.marinedepot.com/American_Marine_Pinpoint_Oxygen_Monitor_Single_Item_Monitors_Controllers_for_Saltwater_Aquariums-Pinpoint_Monitors-AM1119-FITEMOID-vi.html

[redneckgearhead]

Hmm, thanks for the link. Now how to get it to graph the 02 level.....hmmm I wonder if a small PLC would do it. Ive been contemplating integrating a PLC into my tank. Ok time for some more research. Thanks Joe

[salty joe]

Just curious, what kind of lights do you have on your scrubber? The reason I ask is, unless you are running something fairly intense like T5s at point blank range, it might be a waste of time to try and find when photoinhibition occurs.

[redneckgearhead]

Im running the 4 total 23 watt cfl's. You think that with these lights they will never reach full photoinhibition? would LED's work better?

[maglofster]

I think two scrubbers where only one is lit at a time would be the most efficient use of electricity. Use the O2 senser to determine when photoinhibition begins and set a light timer accordingly. So when photoinhibition begins the light goes out on that scubber and the other scrubber gets lit up. On the runup to photoinhibition, growth is fantastic, then growth drops like a rock, no matter how much light (electricity) you throw at it.


This is very interesting. I have been thinking about running two scrubbers - but that has been to get a more even export (cleaning one on Wednesday and the other on Sunday) than I get now. Photoinhibition is another good reason. Currently I run all my scrubbers on 24W T5 @ 3000K but have been thinking on trying out 10W powerled modules.

[salty joe]

Im running the 4 total 23 watt cfl's. You think that with these lights they will never reach full photoinhibition? would LED's work better?

I don't know. If it were me, I would not spend the money on an O2 sensor if I were running cfls.

[salty joe]

This is very interesting. I have been thinking about running two scrubbers - but that has been to get a more even export (cleaning one on Wednesday and the other on Sunday) than I get now. Photoinhibition is another good reason. Currently I run all my scrubbers on 24W T5 @ 3000K but have been thinking on trying out 10W powerled modules.

I also would expect rock solid steady PH with alternating scrubbers.

[srusso]

We have on this forum (imho) an excellent thread - Algae Scrubber Basics - created by srusso (thanks man!). Now I think it could be wise to start a thread about the more advanced topics in Algae Turf Scrubbing.

For the theory as it stands, all basic questions, designs and other basic stuff about ATS, go HERE. (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1977420)

Since I'm an avid aquarium DIY nerd, and have been for 20 years, I recently jumped on the ATS-wagon to see what it would do for me. So far I have experience from five different versions. Versions that are open, closed and with CFL, T5:s as light plus all sorts of different media to grow the algae. One could say there are as many versions as there are people scrubbing.

One thing is for sure - this is a method that not many people use compared to other more proven methods. Maybe it will rise in popularity in the future or maybe it will be forgotten over the next "flavor of the month". But I think it's time for a collective scientific approach. I think we need to discuss and try out different methods and approaches to scrubbing in a scientific way to see what is good, what is bad and where this method can be refined.

One might look at the open source movement of GNU / Linux - They have enjoyed tremendous success due to the fact that they work as a collective (well mostly) all over the world. I think we have an opportunity to do this as well. Crowd-sourcing to gather data, draw conclusions and figure out solutions to problems.

Some topics I think could be included in this thread:

* How can we be scientific about ATS and provide empirical data to draw the correct conclusions?
* For what kind of tanks can an ATS be beneficial or dangerous?
* Light sources - can LED be more than experimental for ATS?
* Skimmers in cooperation with scrubbers - Advantages and disadvantages.
* Scrubbers and carbon dosing - Competition or cooperation?
* Approaches to achieve 3D-scrubbing in both open and closed designs
* Ozone and UV combined with an ATS - good or bad?
* Effects on livestock - Good and bad
* Long term usage of an ATS and how to collect data about it?
* How to avoid crashes - what are the safeguards?

This thread is NOT intended as a "it doesn't work" *flame on* kind of thread. If you wish something like that, please start your own thread and watch it go down in flames. (pun intended) :love1: Also, English is not my native language, so feel free to correct my language, spelling and such.

Let's get going! :wave:

Thank you very much, and I must say an excellent start to this thread!! Well said, and you should be proud of your english, as it is eloquent and well stated. Better than my own...

[redneckgearhead]

I don't know. If it were me, I would not spend the money on an O2 sensor if I were running cfls.

While they may not be ideal, I do get a decent amount of growth with them and if I move them to close it will turn the algae yellow. I know I could get better coverage with t5's or LED's so I might look into a cost/benefit analysis. And running a 02 sensor would help prove what light is best and if CFL's are sufficient.

[srusso]

If someone has time to skim or should I say "scrub" the basics thread of any useful posts that help here. I know myself and others have posted some great info that relates, I wish I could but don't have the time at the moment.

[srusso]

Kind of pricey, but here.

http://www.marinedepot.com/American_Marine_Pinpoint_Oxygen_Monitor_Single_Item_Monitors_Controllers_for_Saltwater_Aquariums-Pinpoint_Monitors-AM1119-FITEMOID-vi.html

Could I use an ORP probe to get a good data for photoinhabition?

Randy explains in this link how ORP works, and I know my apex can take this probe. I could began to possibly provide some relevant data. I haven't yet read the link you provided about photoinhabition so please excuse my ignorance on the topic.

If so I will purchase the probe as soon as I can.


http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-12/rhf/feature/index.php

[salty joe]

From what I gathered from the first part of that article, probably not.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I was initially thinking that there's no way this discussion is going to fly on this site. Everyone who wishes to discuss this, on both sides, needs to be on their Ps and Qs. I personally don't have a ton of free time to dig up data so you may not see me posting on here a lot. But I'll follow it...and we'll see how it goes!

[maglofster]

If someone has time to skim or should I say "scrub" the basics thread of any useful posts that help here. I know myself and others have posted some great info that relates, I wish I could but don't have the time at the moment.

I can give it a try later on. I have read EVERY post in that thread. Lots of good information in there!

[maglofster]

Everyone who wishes to discuss this, on both sides, needs to be on their Ps and Qs.

Exactly!

[Floyd R Turbo]

As was mentioned in the basics thread, I am working on setting up a controlled experiment using multiple independent (and isolated) systems using various LED combinations in an attempt to 1) pinpoint the optimal growth spectrum and 2) monitor nutrient uptake. #2 is really secondary, but since it only minimally impacts #1 to sample and test water, why not (gotta do it anyways). There may be other pertinent data, but mainly I am working on this to try and pin down the spectrum issue, as it seems there has not really been any study to date that really shows the optimal artificial spectrum for growing algae for our purposes.

It may also reveal the dominant type of algae grown under each given light source, or combinations of light sources, as well as the efficiency of said algae.

Should be interesting. If I have the time, I'll periodically post about the experiment, but the detailed thread about it is not on this site.

[mrbncal]

I think photoinhibition . . . On the runup to photoinhibition, growth is fantastic, then growth drops like a rock, no matter how much light (electricity) you throw at it.

I base my opinion on this link http--www.int-res.com-articles-meps-134-m134p207.pdf

It is a study of Cheato, but it is mentioned that most marine algae behave in a similar manner.

I can only offer my experiences with this as "proof", but due to a lack of outlets I run my lights 24/7. During the scrubbers intitial breakin period of 4-5 weeks the algae grew like crazy and I got enormous amounts of stringy growth on the screen.

Now after almost 2 years of the same 24/7 schedule the results are obvious. The algae is very thin and weak. Also there has been an increase in DT algae in certain areas. IMHO this is a very important part of the ATS that really needs to be followed correctly for long term success.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Cardinal rule violation! You need to run 18/6. Everything needs dark time. Get a shorty extension cord and a timer. Also have you been replacing your lamps?

[slow_leak]

As far as tuning a scrubber, I would look at factors that limit growth, and do not think a well aerated tank would have a O2 deficiency.

I suspect limiting factors to growth are light, nitrogen, phosphorous, flow rate, and surface area and possibly micronutrients.

When I set up ATS originally I used iron gluconate to test whether micronutrients were a limiting part of algae growth. It appeared it was. I then widened slot and and put in larger pump, and again I suspect flow rate limits growth.

Another issue I am concerned about if nitrate limitation would lead to cyano in display tank. However this may be overcome with adjusting other factors such as light levels or flow rates.

In freshwater planted aquarium, a standard recipe is used to easily grow vascular plants.

1) adjust CO2 levels to 10-15 ppm by injection and controller.
2) add micro nutrient mix for 2 weeks to remove this a limitation
3) add mixture of Potassium chloride and potassium nitrate, maybe 2:1 to reach 5-10 ppm nitrate. Will remove blue-green algae when present.
4) spike phosphates when symptoms of phosphate limitation are seen.

For reef tanks, I suspect iron gluconate may infact also intially lead to cyano. For corals I also much prefer to feed more. instead of add nutrients as organisms are heterotrophic.

[mrbncal]

Cardinal rule violation! You need to run 18/6. Everything needs dark time. Get a shorty extension cord and a timer. Also have you been replacing your lamps?

I know, i know. . . lol. Kind of embarassing to admit that :uhoh2:

Its a physical limitation, I just dont have any more outlets. I am going to have to come up with something though. . . also, yes the lights get changed on time. Every three months when I change the chemipure.

[srusso]

I know, i know. . . lol. Kind of embarassing to admit that :uhoh2:

Its a physical limitation, I just dont have any more outlets. I am going to have to come up with something though. . . also, yes the lights get changed on time. Every three months when I change the chemipure.

Head to walmart,
For a few bucks go buy a power strip. If you don't have space for a power strip, get an outlet splitter. It's designed to turn a standard pair into six outlets. Even comes with screws to replace the face plate of the outlet. Also if you have a lot of D/C adapters you should grab some short 6" extensions, so you are able to get full use of all outlets. And most importantly grab your self a indoor/outdoor timer... Plug a power strip into it... You could get everything you could need for less then $20.

Thank you for being honest.

[Psyops]

Not as experienced as you guys but I have been running my scrubber for 2 years now. This thread sounds interesting to me. I did notice something interesting last week. I have been running a calcium reactor for 2 weeks now and have noticed a great improvement with my growth. This is obvious why, but I don't know what the longterm affect would be on my system with my scrubber growing more. Meaning possibly taking up too much nutrients. On one of the comments earlier, can you just turn off one side of the scrubber lights and leave the other side on and alternate?

Interested to see what the O2 sensor info is going to provide.

[maglofster]

Interesting to hear. I have heard and also experienced this about the growth getting improved by either a reaktor, kalkwasser or ca/kh additives being added.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I just learned that if you have low CO2 due to high scrubber algae growth, then the algae will start assimilating bicarbonate (alk) instead, but I haven't heard anything about growth affecting calcium uptake.

specifically:

Alkalinity may in some cases be decreased, because of algae's ability to use bicarbonate to get CO2, but this depends on how much CO2 is in your water, and how strong your scrubber is. If you have lots of CO2 (low pH), then alk will not be affected, and pH will be raised.

[Psyops]

Hopefully some algae experts can tune in here to give some perspective.

[srusso]

Here is my PAR reading from my CFLs to my screen.

226 at 4" and 302 at 3"
151803

Used my fish net to push my hanging light an inch closer.

151804

FYI I did push the screen back to account for the 1" sensor width.

Bulbs are two months old.

I hang them horizontally which creates a more even light coverage. This corrects "hot spots" on algae screens when the CFL is pointed at the screen. Unfortunately or fortunately (depends how you look at it.) this puts 100+ PAR in my sump which has created wonderful place for mysis, pods and worms live undisturbed.

[jbannick18]

If someone has time to skim or should I say "scrub" the basics thread of any useful posts that help here. I know myself and others have posted some great info that relates, I wish I could but don't have the time at the moment.

This would be awesome, just started looking into this instead of going the skimmer route and reading 70 pages could give me a headache :lmao:

[jh2pizza]

Is it Par that you are seeking or levels of particular spectrums? What is the spectrums that most algae goes at?

[Melifluonze]

Maybe this isn't the spot, but...

I've been reading about Chillers (Had the Dorm Fridge idea stuck in my head and it's really good that I did some reading!).

The thing I've tripped over a number of times is using evaporation to chill, 8,000 BTU per gallon evaporated, "they" (we?) say.

So, is it safe to say that an open Algae Scrubber, say 26" long by about 12" high, running in open air, is a good chiller solution?

I seem to run up to about 80 degrees inside the house during the day, and the 90 gallon test tank I have runs itself up to a frightening 84 degrees (maybe more if I leave the lights on! :eek1:).

On the "real" 220g tank I'm setting up (with a scrubber), my sump is in the basement and the scrubber would be working in basically 65 degree air all the time. There's a 3/4 HP return pump and I'm going to run three 175W halides + some fluorescents to start, right over the water, but separated from it by... something... (working on that now).

Think the evap from the scrubber (+ 30g open scrubber sump, + 120g open sump tank) will work?

Think this'll work?

[Floyd R Turbo]

In short, yes. Even better, put a fan on it. You will want a temp controller because an open-air screen with convection will drop your temp very well.

just to be clear, you're running the MHs and Fluorescents where?

[Melifluonze]

Lights are over the display tank. Just mentioned them as the heat generators in the system (waste heat generators, that is)

[srusso]

In short, yes. Even better, put a fan on it. You will want a temp controller because an open-air screen with convection will drop your temp very well.

just to be clear, you're running the MHs and Fluorescents where?

Reading his post and writing my reply in my head as I read, you wrote almost the exact words I was going to type.

+1

[pskelton]

We all know that an ATS can allow us to significantly reduce our water change frequency. This is a touchy subject that a lot of people feel strongly about and the above statement is usually followed by the disclaimer stating that this is if the purpose of water changes is for nitrate reduction.

The major reason for an ATS system to get periodic water changes would be to replenish trace elements and such. I was wondering if anyone had thought about developing a DIY food which would naturally contain such trace minerals. I would think that if you could feed your tank with such a food you could maintain your trace elements through feeding and further push out your water changes. I understand you can buy supplements and dose your tank accordingly but this is just something I have been thinking about.

[Floyd R Turbo]

This is exactly what I do. Rod's Food is great because it's a total tank food. My local club gets together every 6 months or so and makes about a 3 gallon batch of DIY food that contains various seafood, off-the-shelf fish food, and coral foods like Cyclopeeze, Reef Chili, etc. It's essentially a DIY version of Rod's.

I don't do any PWCs unless it's a last resort, like one of those 'gut' feelings, like I notice something odd and I default to doing a water change to see if it helps (which, so far, it has made no difference)

[slow_leak]

I would warn about taking a type of filtration as a sole ideology. Salt water parameters are measured by basic parameters. Some would argue that not doing any water changes will cause a closed reef tank to crash hard eventually. MudShark is one of the few TOTM examples I ever saw that was excellent condition. He eventually moved away from technique. I run Skimmer and scrubber. Scrubber product is negligible.

ATS will remove inorganic nitrogen and phosphates with ease however.

As far as trace elements go, if you choose to use them, I like the idea of using only elements that are known to deplete readily. The ones that depleted readily can also lead to excess algae growth. I have tried Iron Gluconate, Potassium Iodine, and Potassium Sulfate. I would like to have evidence if ATS can deplete potassium like vascular fresh water plants do. I am currently using a little TLF Sea Elements. I am not a fan of control bleaching experiments like Zeovit personally. It looks risky and unnatural.

I have enjoyed results of scrubber over last 9 months. Cyano faded and hair has made a very slight come back. I will just use a few herbivores as I got away with just snails in last 9 months. Coloration and maintenance are easy and will keep running it.

[pskelton]

I understand the debate on filtration ideology and I understand it is not without risk. I also don’t want to suggest one method over another or even say the method I use is better or worse than another. What I want is to see how far this technology can be pushed and where its limitations are.

My tank is running with a scrubber as its only filtration and I know there are proven methods available that work well and produce beautiful reef tanks. For me I like the excitement of doing something different and the experimentation that is involved.

Anyone wish to share how long they have gone without a water change on their scrubber only filtered tanks? Has anyone had any problems or any lessons learned?

[slow_leak]

What do you mean by limits? Bad growth, crash, algae everywhere?

[Floyd R Turbo]

There is a fundamental limit to the amount of algae that can be grown on a screen of given size with given flow and given light from a given source. Word of the day: given :spin2:

As far as limits go, many of them are generally assumed based upon anecdotal data, but not many have been truly (scientifically) tested. Such as the upper limit of copper presence before algae is killed or growth/filtraion is hindered, actual uptake rates of certain nutrients, I could go on but you get the general idea.

I do know that someone did carry out an experiment of sorts to see what effect iron dosing had on growth. It went so far as to dump an entire bottle (I think 500mL) of Kent's Iron/Manganese into a 90 gallon system in one shot. This resulted in a lot of coral mortality, but it gave insight into the scrubber's ability to handle such a large dose. Not scientific either.

Some of these things are tests I might try to perform once I get finished with my LED experiements.

[Psyops]

One of you guys mentioned carbonate intake by ATS. My ATS was working ok for 2 yrs. I finally added a Ca Reactor 3 months ago. I noticed immediately that my GHA was growing at an alarming rate. What I noticed was that my Alk readings stayed about the same but my Ca numbers were slowly creeping up. From 400ppm to about 415-425. Everything else staying consistent. Like you guys are saying. Provide more nutrients and your ATS will work better. My calcium reactor effluent dumps before my ATS intake pump. Hope this contributes to any helpful info for you guys.

[kcress]

Psyops; Wait, the GHA you're referring to is your ATS GHA? So this is good right?
That would mean for more GHA to grow there is going to be more N and P uptake.

[madean]

Just curious as to what peoples take on the idea of using an ats for filtration for breeding. In a breeding setup, lets say for clowns, there is a large amount of feeding going on a large amount of waiste. And there can be a large turnover with fish entering and leaving the system. Plus were talking about growing fish from eggs to adolescents. Does anybody see any issues with an ats interferring with the growth of fish. possibly uptaking too many nutrients or the wrong nutrients that can affect growth in fish. This idea seems like it would be great for a fish breeding system. Just trying to get other peoples opinions to make a good decision for my application.

[kcress]

I would think an ATS would be ideal for breeding. Large nitrate excursions should be handled in stride. You'll probably be getting some pods into the water column that fry would love.

[Dave1NC]

Just following along... :)

Someone earlier asked about doing water changes when running an ATS. I don't do them in my 240g mixed reef. I do however add ALK, CAL, Mag, Lugol's, SeaChem Reef+ and top-off with Kalk. I've been doing this now for about 4 months and have had good success. I also use Phosban when my PO4 levels start to creep up.

[Psyops]

Psyops; Wait, the GHA you're referring to is your ATS GHA? So this is good right?
That would mean for more GHA to grow there is going to be more N and P uptake.

Kcress; yes ATS GHA. My Ph is around 8.15-8.22. I guess maybe I have too little CO2 so myATS is using up carbonate. I agree, it is a good thing. My system is healthier as a result, but I dose soda ash in my top off water to keep the Alk around 9. If you have any other ideas on what I could do to maintain alk please let me know.

[srusso]

Kcress; yes ATS GHA. My Ph is around 8.15-8.22. I guess maybe I have too little CO2 so myATS is using up carbonate. I agree, it is a good thing. My system is healthier as a result, but I dose soda ash in my top off water to keep the Alk around 9. If you have any other ideas on what I could do to maintain alk please let me know.

Kalk... In your ATO... Both Kh and Ca

[Psyops]

Kalk... In your ATO... Both Kh and Ca

I don't need Calcium. My levels are ok from the reactor. Our guess is it's probably the carbonate is beng taken up from the ATS. But thanks for the input. Don't want to minimize your comment by any means. My calcium levels are actually gone up a little.

I also forgot to mention that my Skimmer air intake is from outside. It makes sense that maybe I would have less CO2 in my system. I guess I can experiment and have my skimmer intake from inside the house. Too chicken to change things at this point.

[flyhigh123]

The fuge that my ats empties into has a space that is 20 x 12. Should I make a 6" dsb under the ats?

[slow_leak]

I would use live rock instead.

[flyhigh123]

I would use live rock instead.

I have the other half of fuge with rock

[JohnnyB in SD]

There should be no need to take up nitrates when you have a properly setup & running ATS. What would be the purpose of using a DSB under an ATS?

[Thatgrimguy]

Dosing iron to supplement scrubber growth... When is this necessary and how do you go about it?

[salty joe]

First, you might want to see where you are and go from there.

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_searchItem.aspx?SearchText=iron%20test%20kit&parsed=1

[Thatgrimguy]

First, you might want to see where you are and go from there.

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_searchItem.aspx?SearchText=iron%20test%20kit&parsed=1

Well. I guess I should have phrased that better. What levels are acceptable? Do they differ from a system not running a scrubber? What are the actual benefits and disadvantages? What is used to dose iron (is there a specific brand I should be looking for?)

[srusso]

Dosing iron to supplement scrubber growth... When is this necessary and how do you go about it?

As of right now, I am on the third week of test dosing iron. I got a tip on a DIY iron source from normal iron supplements from CVS store brand. Take a pill and let it soften in RODI. Stir well once the pill is completely soft. Allow to settle, 20 mins or so. Dose green liquid and leave fillers at the bottom of the cup. I am doing it once a week. when you does it will cloud the tank water.

I used one pill the first week, saw little change in color of growth. Clouded my 70 gallon for about an hour or more.

I used two pills the second week, saw a generally greener healthier growth by the third and fourth day. It clouded the water for about three hours. No I'll effects noticed and fish or SPS, LPS, Softies, anemones or inverts.

This week (yesterday) I used 3 pills. The growth of the screen is that of a day older. Greener healthier looking growth. Clouded the tank for about 6 hours, corals seemed to love the dose as polyps where fully extended.

Again fish and others seem normal.

This is still something I am testing so do at your own risk. I am using the color and health of the algae harvest as my indicators for more or less dosing. At the moment I am dosing the solution all at once but I may start drip dosing.

[Thatgrimguy]

As of right now, I am on the third week of test dosing iron. I got a tip on a DIY iron source from normal iron supplements from CVS store brand. Take a pill and let it soften in RODI. Stir well once the pill is completely soft. Allow to settle, 20 mins or so. Dose green liquid and leave fillers at the bottom of the cup. I am doing it once a week. when you does it will cloud the tank water.

I used one pill the first week, saw little change in color of growth. Clouded my 70 gallon for about an hour or more.

I used two pills the second week, saw a generally greener healthier growth by the third and fourth day. It clouded the water for about three hours. No I'll effects noticed and fish or SPS, LPS, Softies, anemones or inverts.

This week (yesterday) I used 3 pills. The growth of the screen is that of a day older. Greener healthier looking growth. Clouded the tank for about 6 hours, corals seemed to love the dose as polyps where fully extended.

Again fish and others seem normal.

This is still something I am testing so do at your own risk. I am using the color and health of the algae harvest as my indicators for more or less dosing. At the moment I am dosing the solution all at once but I may start drip dosing.

Do you have a thread where you are documenting the experiment? I would love to see your results.

[redneckgearhead]

Me too!

[salty joe]

http://www.seafriends.org.nz/oceano/seawater.htm#composition

According to this link, NSW has an iron concentration of 0.0034 ppm. I'd be leery of greatly elevating anything from NSW levels. I'd never dose anything that would not be measured, just my opinion.

[linx]

I've been skipping through this thread and it's been nice to see how much info is being collected, but how do you measure iron in your seawater?

[srusso]

I've been skipping through this thread and it's been nice to see how much info is being collected, but how do you measure iron in your seawater?

I am going by the color of my algae ATM. I think they do have iron tests though... Fe+

[srusso]

As I said I would get around to picking through the basics thread for topics to discuss here.

Algae Scrubbing used on an industrial level. These systems are proven to remove some nasty stuff from farm run off.

If people haven't seen a water treatment facility
http://www.algalturfscrubber.com/images/home_pic_03b.jpg
This image is from http://www.algalturfscrubber.com/

Also here is a quote from the algal turf scrubber site...

"...the ATS algal product can also be converted to paper and construction materials and can be used to sequester carbon and heavy metals as well as break-down toxic hydrocarbons. ATS-produced algae can be converted to energy products such as biodiesel, gasohol and methane."

[srusso]

Please watch this inspiring video I watched that was the nail in the coffin for me when I was on the fence about building a scrubber.

<object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/h8KQcWjdhgU?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/h8KQcWjdhgU?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="390"></embed></object>

The related video

[srusso]

http://www.chesapeake.org/stac/agconservationtools/kangas.pdf

This is a great 28 page presentation, read through it. Its brief and helpful in understanding how ATS systems are used in large scale applications.

Lots of pictures too... :D

[srusso]

http://www.physicsegypt.org/epc08/epc823.pdf

Another great document, short only 10 pages. It was written by Walter Adey, Phd, Jeffrey Bannon, MESM and Longenecker and Associate.

My favorite quotes and highlights

"it is important to note that this is a modular system, capable of expanding to any size."

I don't think they realized how small we would take it... :D

"A 2005 independent study of ATS, by the South Florida Water Management District and the IFAS Institute of the University of Florida, certified ATS as 5-100 times more cost efficient at removing nutrients from Everglades canal waters than the next competitor, the STA, a managed marsh system."

a marsh looks a lot like a refuge doesn't it?

"ATS and STA were the final contestants in a 15-year study of nine technologies, and ATS was the only technology that created a usable byproduct."

We are green both literately and figuratively!

"ATS removes heavy metals, break down toxic hydrocarbons, and oxygenates treated waters."

...but we already knew that... ;)

"Depending upon season and temperature, the resulting algal turf must be harvested every 5-15 days to maintain high levels of productivity."

I have reason to believe that my system may benefit from a 5 day cleaning cycle. I will soon began testing this theory. I notice the algae on day 6 and 7 darken considerably. Yet on day 5 it is bright green in color.

[srusso]

"The above information is supported by dozens of experimental studies and hundreds of years of operational time (i.e., multiple ATS over 25 years of operation). Moreover, ATS systems have received over 15 years of research and development testing followed by a ten-year history of pilot plant construction and operation for water quality control. This not only includes ATS systems for water treatment, but also for aquaculture."

Tested for quite some time now...

"As in most photosynthesis, algal turfs abundantly release oxygen; in ATS systems, oxygen is dissolved into the overflowing water. It is not unusual for water flowing off an ATS plant in the afternoon to be highly supersaturated."

"ATS systems are well known for their abilities to “scrub” nitrogen and phosphorus. Their lack of sensitivity to nutrient concentration, until extremely low levels are achieved, provides the ability to accomplish high water purity."

"It has been known for a half century that algal cell walls adsorb heavy metals, and it is a characteristic of ATS phytoremediation, that heavy metals are removed from treated waters and sequestered into the algal biomass. This is an added value of ATS water cleaning, especially in waters with an industrial or urban component."

"ATS systems with high oxygen supersaturation break down entrained hydrocarbons. There is an extensive general research literature on this process, and a single ATS research study in the late 1990’s demonstrated that when combined with artificial ultraviolet, ATS systems have considerable capability of breaking down a variety of chlorinated hydrocarbons."

:) Hey that's us! ^^^

[srusso]

Another very interesting video, not a direct ATS system, but more of a production line approach with an algae scrubber feel.

<object width="640" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/daWuRY_BFt0?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/daWuRY_BFt0?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="390"></embed></object>

[Floyd R Turbo]

http://www.seafriends.org.nz/oceano/seawater.htm#composition

According to this link, NSW has an iron concentration of 0.0034 ppm. I'd be leery of greatly elevating anything from NSW levels. I'd never dose anything that would not be measured, just my opinion.

IIRC, is it very difficult to maintain any level of measurable iron in a reef system, but I can't recall why this is. It just absorbed into everything very quickly, so it's really hard to overdose. In fact, one person did an experiment to see exactly how much you could dose in one shot before it was detrimental to the system, and it turns out that about 1 gallon added to a 90 gallon system will do a lot of harm to your corals, but won't completely kill them.

[Thatgrimguy]

IIRC, is it very difficult to maintain any level of measurable iron in a reef system, but I can't recall why this is. It just absorbed into everything very quickly, so it's really hard to overdose. In fact, one person did an experiment to see exactly how much you could dose in one shot before it was detrimental to the system, and it turns out that about 1 gallon added to a 90 gallon system will do a lot of harm to your corals, but won't completely kill them.

Some of them did get jacked up pretty bad lol. I forgot about that experiment. I'm going to go search that out again. He has put that 90 gallon through some stuff in the name of science! Still looks great though. That eel he has is amazing.

[Trichome]

Has anyone been able to find a affordable LED light source for your ATS? I am very interested in being able to use LED lighting mainly because of the energy savings. Also because i don't enjoy having to change out 8 CFL bulbs every 6 months to a year.

[Floyd R Turbo]

right now the cheapest place I've seen is e-shine systems. But they only communicate via e-mail or chat through a translator and who knows the quality of the LEDs from taiwan/china. I know a few are being tried out right now. One other product was tried and it the fixture fried after a month or so because of moisture. Most 1W or 2W LED grow light fixtures have a fan to cool the PCB so you can't really use them in an open scrubber design, or even over an open sump where moisture gets drawn into the fixture. So the LED fixture route is really something that takes a little forethought.

[elegance coral]

IIRC, is it very difficult to maintain any level of measurable iron in a reef system, but I can't recall why this is. It just absorbed into everything very quickly, so it's really hard to overdose. In fact, one person did an experiment to see exactly how much you could dose in one shot before it was detrimental to the system, and it turns out that about 1 gallon added to a 90 gallon system will do a lot of harm to your corals, but won't completely kill them.

One gallon at what concentration?

[Floyd R Turbo]

I think it was actually 1/2 gallon of Kent Iron/Manganese

[BluScrnOdeth]

any new breakthroughs on the ATS? I was going through some figures and though the ATS is a great option for the tank as i used to run one till about 2 weeks ago, the ATS uses more energy and cost of bulbs per year will end up costing you more than a Skimmer. I'm all about energy efficiency and saving a buck, but i think that a LED solution needs to be made. I seen on Cutter.com.au that CREE has released these to grow plants http://www.theledstore.com.au/category_s/35.htm so it may work with a scrubber. I'll be ordering some near the end of the year when i put in a large order for a customers tank that I am building.

it uses: 3 Red 625nm, 1 450nm Royal Blue , 1 Red 660nm

[Floyd R Turbo]

Actually if you read that closely, you get 3x 625 cree red, 1x 425 cree RB, and one triple 5w ledengin 660 deep red (which is 3 5w chips on a common PCB). That actually looks like a good mix. You get a 6:1 ratio of red:blue with the red 50:50. That's for the Kit 1. The larger kits you get it seems the go more blue, which is the wrong direction - you want ideally 7:1 red:blue. the DR LEDs are less intense than the 625s so having the 5w triple-chips is probably comparable to the regular reds. I think those would be a good buy for a DIY kit, and just thin out the RBs - use them on your display or make a nice moonlight kit :)

Still, they're 3W which IMO is too intense and you have to stand those off the screen quite a bit. You should only need 1/2 the wattage to compare to fluorescent. Then use the new sizing guidelines (based on feeding) and concentrate down your screen to get good mixture of the LEDs and you're good to go.

On my end, I have hardly had the chance to unbox my fixtures and play with them, let alone build an enclosure and setup my test. bummer.

[redneckgearhead]

I am debating buying these or making my own similar to this. Anyone see a problem with it? http://homegrownlights.com/14wled.html

[Floyd R Turbo]

I saw a built fixture using similar LEDs but they were much less spread out. Those are likely smaller than 1w LEDs but they're very close together, so that might actually work OK. They're in a 3:1 r:b ratio but that's not the end of the world. I wonder if you could get that kit with more red and less blue.

Either way you cut it, that tightness of the LEDs is what you would need with the low power ones like those. Not too many have had success with low power yet (<1w LEDs)

[Floyd R Turbo]

add: that fixture has 272 LEDs and draws 14 watts. That makes those 0.05W LEDs. it might be worth a shot if you had $45 to throw around an test it out. Probably would do about as good as a 23 or 26W CFL.

[bsk997]

What's the most ideal ratio of Red/White/Blue LEDS?
I have a 10x10 screen lit on both sides with CFL right now but I was looking to add LEDs.
I was looking at at doing 12 LEDS on each side with a ratio of 50% Red Crees and 50% Warm White Crees. Does that sound good?
Thanks for the opinion!

[Floyd R Turbo]

Skip the WW and go all red. If anything mix 50/50 660nm and 630nm and maybe 1 455 or 425 blue per 6-8 reds, if any blues at all. Nothing is 'proven' yet but there have been a few getting good growth with only 660 and only 630 so mix 'em and that way you're covered.

[N728NY]

Hey Guys,

Just chiming in to say I really hope this thread keeps going! Lots of good info. I'm still pretty new to keeping a reef tank. I have been running a scrubber with my skimmer for the past three months. Before then I could never get my nitrates below 15, and since I added my scrubber I never been able to detect any nitrates, even after feeding twice as much.

As I said I'm still new so correct me if I'm wrong. However to my understanding on what I have read, in nsw corals have a constant food source of live plankton, and other "goodies" that we don't dare to keep throwing in our tank as it would completely mess up all the levels in our tank. Also to my understanding ATS remove all of the nutrients or in our case "pollutants" from putting these things in our tank. I have been wondering if it would be possible to run a large enough turf scrubber to the point where you could keep a small constant source of food for corals and fish to feast on thus resulting in faster coral growth? Sorry if this is way to far fetched and can't be done, but just an idea I had thought of from all the hours upon hours of reading I have been doing on reef central in the past 10 months lol.

[redneckgearhead]

I believe that has been done. I seen a video of Santamonica running a nearly constant food drip through an IV pump to constantly feed his tank (full disclosure I have no idea if it worked long term). And that is part of the beauty of running an ATS, it leaves that food source in the tank and only removes it once it decays and turns into ammonia, nitrates and trites.

[Floyd R Turbo]

N728NY I assume you mean NPS (non-photosynthetic) corals. The short answer is no I have not specifically heard of anyone running an Algae Scrubber on an NPS tank, but it seems to me like a perfect match. NPS corals in particular benefit from a multiple feedings. I saw Gary Parr give a presentation at MACNA and he mentioned that there are some that must be fed several times a day, and some required squirting food directly at them. So I'm sure that there's not a one-size-fits-all answer, but the bottom line here is that NPS corals would strongly benefit from a constant drip feeding system (that is not in dispute) and an Algae Scrubber is a form of filtration that is capable of handling the nutrient load associated with a constant drip feeder (this is also not in dispute). Now whether they will work together long term remains to be seen, but that's just because nobody (to my knowledge) has tried it.

redneck is referring to the system that SM runs which is about 90 gallons and runs 2 100 gallon rated scrubbers. He feeds 72 mL of a DIY oyster-feast plus 20 sq in of Nori (a DAY) and one whole silverside a week. No N, no P.

[Floyd R Turbo]

update on the LEDs - they sent me 2 of the exact same fixture instead of switching the blues on one of them. Slight bummer. I was pretty ticked when I figured it out and sent him a message to that effect so we'll see what happens. Worst case I can do a Band A vs Band B vs combined band test and nothing else.

And what you've all been waiting for

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/LED%20ATS%20Experiment/DSC03004-fixture2cct12.jpg

This fixture is insanely bright. It doesn't look like it in this pic, but all the lights in the room are on. My wife said "what the f#%@ is that???!!!" when I turned it on. Lit the ceiling up a nice pretty hot pink. If anyone was driving by they probably thought I was refining uranium or getting abducted.

[N728NY]

That's great Floyd! I will have to see if I can some posts from him and check it out! I know with my 75 gallon set up, I made my scrubber slightly over sized (sized for 100 gallons) and I dump huge amounts of pellets and frozen shrimp in my tank on top of spot feeding my corals on a regular basis and I still have yet to register any nitrates on my test kit. Being that I'm still new I still haven't built up the courage to unplug the skimmer yet. I may try it once I know for sure my scrubber is fully matured, got plenty of ro water made up and salt ready just in case I need to do an emergency water change lol. I still have a clump of cheato left that I suppose would be good back up if the scrubber couldn't keep up. The cheato doesn't really grow very much right now because of the scrubber. I love these scrubbers, I'm so glad I took the time to read "both sides" of the arguments on them to find out the facts about them.

Cool LED Fixture! Keep us updated on it! It definitely would be awesome to venture into the LED lighting side of this. Almost seems like maybe the LED fixtures would be a more evenly distributed light as well as the energy savings? As compared to my cfl lights with the reflector? I know what you mean Floyd, when I live in a second floor apartment and when we're not home you can see a big dark blue glow of actinic light coming from our living room window, can only imagine what the neighbors think we're doing up here lol.

[Floyd R Turbo]

The advantages of LED are better as you venture to the areas with higher power cost. Here in Iowa electric is 8.1 cents/kWh for the first 1000 then 7.2 after that. In CA it's like 40 cents/kWh.

As far as green / environmentally friendly, that's marketing right now. There's no proof that LEDs are better for the environment. DOE had commissioned a big study via Cornell or another big U and fired then years later (recently) after they couldn't deliver such a report (regarding processes used in manufacturing and their impact on the environment). CFLs have little mercury, etc in them anymore. So the environmental impact of throwing away CFLs is becoming less relevant.

Light distribution and spectrum tuning are the keys. Use of 1W vs 3W LEDs will hopefully solve the distribution issues.

The biggest issue is heat sinking. These fixtures have fans on the back that push air at the heat sink, so you have a potential corrosion issue (which has happened).

We have such a specific application that no one makes anything that works "perfect"...

[JohnnyB in SD]

That's great Floyd! I will have to see if I can some posts from him and check it out! I know with my 75 gallon set up, I made my scrubber slightly over sized (sized for 100 gallons) and I dump huge amounts of pellets and frozen shrimp in my tank on top of spot feeding my corals on a regular basis and I still have yet to register any nitrates on my test kit. Being that I'm still new I still haven't built up the courage to unplug the skimmer yet. I may try it once I know for sure my scrubber is fully matured, got plenty of ro water made up and salt ready just in case I need to do an emergency water change lol. I still have a clump of cheato left that I suppose would be good back up if the scrubber couldn't keep up. The cheato doesn't really grow very much right now because of the scrubber. I love these scrubbers, I'm so glad I took the time to read "both sides" of the arguments on them to find out the facts about them.

Hey N728NY
I would suggest putting your skimmer on a timer and gradually reducing the amount of time you run it as opposed to shutting it off cold turkey. I have mine set to run for one hour in every 24, over skimming 5 gallons per session. No negative effects on water quality and I've cut more than 2 KWH/day off my electric bill by not running a 90w skimmer pump all day.

[Floyd R Turbo]

You skim out 5 gallons in 1 hour?

[N728NY]

Thanks a lot! Wow, I can't believe I didn't think of that before. Saving electric is always good, as well as I heard the skimmer pulls nutrients out that are good for the corals. Up here in new york our electric is around .32 cents a kw.

[JohnnyB in SD]

You skim out 5 gallons in 1 hour?

Closer to 45 minutes actually. Is not real "dirty" looking but if it's foam it's skimming out, more like an automated water change. I never have to clean my skimmer cause it's flushing itself.
Using an MD9.5 on an AquaC EV180 with oversized nozzle. Has a gate valve on the pump that isn't even open all the way. Foams over into the cup very heavily, which drains into a 5 gallon jug with a float valve in it that shuts the skimmer down when it's full.
Was a primary strategy to keep N&P under control before I started the ATS, running about 10-15gl / day back then. I keep doing it on a smaller scale just cause I think PWC's are a good idea in general and the seawater is free.

BTW - THANKS for the tip on modifying my lights to remedy the black goop situation. Changed my ballast from a Workhorse to a pair of ATI's and moved the T5 tubes from 4.5" away to 2" from the screen. One week later things are MUCH improved, algae having some hair structure and looking green again, Nitrates back to zero.

[Floyd R Turbo]

That's more skimming than I've ever heard of. Why do you have it set to skim so wet?

[JohnnyB in SD]

Wet Skimmate Water Changes is sticky in Advanced Topics.

[spamreefnew]

floyd: did I read that it cost you about 40 bucks per side for the red LED's?

[Floyd R Turbo]

um...no. I had those fixtures custom made. It was not cheap.

[BluScrnOdeth]

Good, i been waiting for someone to narrow down the spectrums needed since i dont have time to test things myself anymore. And it seems that you recommend the 1w LEDs? Thats good to as maybe they should be cheaper to buy than the CREE 3w LEDs, i havent looked yet.

[Gorgok]

When i ordered LEDs to replace some of my whiter (10000K) whites i ordered some reds (~660nm) too... I planned on 9 3W red LEDs on each heat sink, but now that my actual lights are populated i have left over 10000K and 4500K whites. I wonder how much overkill it would be to add 4 of the 4500Ks to the 9 reds on each sink? It makes a nicer 3, 2, 3, 2, 3 pattern on the heatsink (5.9 x 7").

Main reason i want to go LEDs is to save space, as i can't really get into my sump anymore with the big reflector cones there.

[pskelton]

I have been running a bucket scrubber with CFL bulbs for 8 months and I am considering building an acrylic led scrubber. I am starting to do research and I am mentally playing around with a few ideas. As for LEDs I think I will wait to see what Floyd’s experiment yields. As for dimensions, I wanted to get everyone’s input. The typical acrylic scrubber is wide with only a few inches of screen hanging down. This makes sense with the use of long T5 bulbs but is this optimal for an LED scrubber? It makes sense to me that a led scrubber might be built more efficient by designing it with a longer vertical screen. This would allow for a lower total flow rate on the scrubber’s inlet while maintaining the same flow/sq inch requirements. A lower inlet flow requirement would mean a cheaper pump during the initial investment and lower total power month to month, reducing energy expenses. I would also like to consider the advantage a scrubber of these dimensions might have on achieving good 3d growth. I am not sure on this one but it seams logical that a short width scrubber might allow faster 3d algae growth. You may be able to further take advantage of this by tapering the scrubber box so that it is narrow at the bottom (Plexiglas close to screen) and wide at the top (Plexiglas further from the screen). These are just some things I have been thinking about and I wanted to get some feedback from the community.

[Floyd R Turbo]

That is all fine, the only disadvantage to a narrow screen is less turnover of the water passing over the screen, which mean slightly less effective filtering. But only slightly and this only matters, really, if you feed to the maximum. You can compensate for this if it becomes an issue by widening the slot and increasing the flow. But in 99.9% of the case, it is a non-issue because the algae takes the excess nutrients out of the water continuously and quickly.

I like your idea of the tapered box. This should work, but you probably won't be able to use a bulkhead type setup. The other concern is that if you get very thick growth, the growth toward the bottom may partially block the flow. This would lead to some good 3D growth, but could potentially block enough flow to overflow the box. What I would do in this case is make the box about 1 inch longer that the screen on each side so that when the algae does grow in and block the flow (and it will, if you make it narrow enough) then the flow has a place to go. This is basically how my box runs currently, I have holes in the corners of the box, which is 1" longer on each dimension. The growth regularly builds up and traps about 4" of water.

Also the tapered box would probably have to have the screen terminate in a sump chamber.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Floyd,

Eagerly awaiting your LED test results. I have the drive to find/build just about anything conceivable when it comes to LEDs but I am really lacking any specific knowledge about what exactly it is you'd want to build when it comes to an ATS. I see you've mentioned several specific things in this thread - ratios of different wavelengths, mentioning people have had success with specific approaches, describing that distribution and spectrum are important, etc. Could you possibly link to some of your sources for that info? I'm interested to do some research while I wait for you to be our test mule. :)

[Gorgok]

I hope that 9 3W ~660nm reds and 4 4500K whites is enough for my screen. I built this...

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww332/Ojomrog/Fishy%20Projects/Algae%20Turf%20Scrubber/ATS-LED1.jpg
Unlike my lights, i didn't go through the heatsink for wiring.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww332/Ojomrog/Fishy%20Projects/Algae%20Turf%20Scrubber/ATS-LED2.jpg
Well mostly. I didn't want to spoil my lens with holes for the wires.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww332/Ojomrog/Fishy%20Projects/Algae%20Turf%20Scrubber/ATS-LED3.jpg
Its alive!

Now i just have to figure out a way to mount the lights (and make the other one, heh) and re-mount the screen with these in mind. Currently its just sort of hacked into place. I really want to be able to swing one out of the way to remove the screen better...

[srusso]

Floyd,

Eagerly awaiting your LED test results. I have the drive to find/build just about anything conceivable when it comes to LEDs but I am really lacking any specific knowledge about what exactly it is you'd want to build when it comes to an ATS. I see you've mentioned several specific things in this thread - ratios of different wavelengths, mentioning people have had success with specific approaches, describing that distribution and spectrum are important, etc. Could you possibly link to some of your sources for that info? I'm interested to do some research while I wait for you to be our test mule. :)

Most bleeding edge info for LEDs is being posted on the algae scrubber forum. Cant link to it b/c of RC rules but with google you can find most things...

[srusso]

I hope that 9 3W ~660nm reds and 4 4500K whites is enough for my screen. I built this...

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww332/Ojomrog/Fishy%20Projects/Algae%20Turf%20Scrubber/ATS-LED1.jpg
Unlike my lights, i didn't go through the heatsink for wiring.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww332/Ojomrog/Fishy%20Projects/Algae%20Turf%20Scrubber/ATS-LED2.jpg
Well mostly. I didn't want to spoil my lens with holes for the wires.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww332/Ojomrog/Fishy%20Projects/Algae%20Turf%20Scrubber/ATS-LED3.jpg
Its alive!

Now i just have to figure out a way to mount the lights (and make the other one, heh) and re-mount the screen with these in mind. Currently its just sort of hacked into place. I really want to be able to swing one out of the way to remove the screen better...

I would first play with distance from the screen before making anything final, at least if you cant dim the LEDs.

Good thinking, a lot of people overlook needing to make the screen easily accessible/removable.

[Gorgok]

I can dim them somewhat, but i'll make sure i can adjust distance from the screen as well.

I really have to decide if i want to hang the whole deal from the top of my stand, which would be pretty safe and easy all things considered, or make a stand/mount to sit/grip the sump, which would be easier to make a hinge with but overall way more complicated....

[pskelton]

LED scrubber light design considerations.

I would like to build a LED light for my scrubber. Aside from color considerations (I think Floyd’s experiment will answer that question) I wanted to discuss LED layout, LED wattage, lumen output, How many LEDs per square inch of screen, and optics v/s no optics. I was wondering if we have enough information yet to put together a basic rule of thumb. Kind of a getting started guideline from what others have made work so far.

[Rafi]

* How can we be scientific about ATS and provide empirical data to draw the correct conclusions?

I cant say the scientific things about ATS but Im using it and the result is awesome

* For what kind of tanks can an ATS be beneficial or dangerous?

I dont think that ATS could be a danger for any kind of tank. I saw it on fish only tank and I have it on my reef tank. as long as those algaes are in a safe zone there would be no problem, even when they are in tank they will be eaten by Tangs really fast!

* Light sources - can LED be more than experimental for ATS?

yellow leds are good,remember that ATS need a light with low kelvin.I use FPL Fluorescent with 2300K.

* Skimmers in cooperation with scrubbers - Advantages and disadvantages.
i dont think that skimmer is necessary for soft coral reef tanks( for SPS i think it must be) cause its eliminate the foods that Dissolved in water.believe it or not its been 6 month that i remove my skimmer cup and its only job is feeding air on water and every thing is really good condition with ATS.

* Scrubbers and carbon dosing - Competition or cooperation?
* Approaches to achieve 3D-scrubbing in both open and closed designs
* Ozone and UV combined with an ATS - good or bad?


i didnt have experience about that3 questions
* Effects on livestock - Good and bad
good. more pods and amphipods. and the algae that you'll collect will be a nice , fresh and really healthy food for all of your fishes specially tangs and clowns and damsels
* Long term usage of an ATS and how to collect data about it?

I use it for about year and the half and I haven't any problem for using it in my tank.
ask me and if I knew about it I'll share them with you :)

* How to avoid crashes - what are the safeguards?
the only problem will be Water pump failure. Have a good water pomp have a good ATS!

[Floyd R Turbo]

I hope that 9 3W ~660nm reds and 4 4500K whites is enough for my screen. I built this...

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww332/Ojomrog/Fishy%20Projects/Algae%20Turf%20Scrubber/ATS-LED1.jpg
Unlike my lights, i didn't go through the heatsink for wiring.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww332/Ojomrog/Fishy%20Projects/Algae%20Turf%20Scrubber/ATS-LED2.jpg
Well mostly. I didn't want to spoil my lens with holes for the wires.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww332/Ojomrog/Fishy%20Projects/Algae%20Turf%20Scrubber/ATS-LED3.jpg
Its alive!

Now i just have to figure out a way to mount the lights (and make the other one, heh) and re-mount the screen with these in mind. Currently its just sort of hacked into place. I really want to be able to swing one out of the way to remove the screen better...

Ditch the white LEDs. You will get nothing out of those compared to all red. Until I determine different, I am suggesting a 50:50 mix of 630nm:660nm and nothing else. If you have to choose one, keep this in mind. Hort growers (plants) see more growth from 630 than 660, watt for watt, because 630s have more intensity. However one guys that picked 660s for his scrubber gets great growth; this may be due to the need for a few extra LEDs for brightness and thus a better distribution pattern (for 3W deep reds - there are 5W DRs available too)

[Floyd R Turbo]

Floyd,

Eagerly awaiting your LED test results. I have the drive to find/build just about anything conceivable when it comes to LEDs but I am really lacking any specific knowledge about what exactly it is you'd want to build when it comes to an ATS. I see you've mentioned several specific things in this thread - ratios of different wavelengths, mentioning people have had success with specific approaches, describing that distribution and spectrum are important, etc. Could you possibly link to some of your sources for that info? I'm interested to do some research while I wait for you to be our test mule. :)

I am also eagerly awaiting having time to do the frakkin experiment. Holiday time is bad with 4 kids, plus all of our birthdays are within 3 months of each other Oct-Jan. Add in acrylic projects and tank maintenance and something has to give. Sorry for the delay.

[Floyd R Turbo]

LED scrubber light design considerations.

I would like to build a LED light for my scrubber. Aside from color considerations (I think Floyd’s experiment will answer that question) I wanted to discuss LED layout, LED wattage, lumen output, How many LEDs per square inch of screen, and optics v/s no optics. I was wondering if we have enough information yet to put together a basic rule of thumb. Kind of a getting started guideline from what others have made work so far.

I would do 50:50 630:660 for now.

As far as layout, as evenly distrubuted as you can get.

Recent results show that you can use 1/2 the total wattage versus T5HO, but you may want to go a little higher and then you can dial back the photoperiod; better to have more intensity and shorter period than less intensity and longer period. If you have a screen sized for feeding rate, I would suggest higher wattage/sq in. So 0.5-0.75 Q/sq in of screen (dimensional area, double sided screen, light on both sides) for a screen sized to the tank, and about 1W/sq in for a feeding-sized screen (which would be double the photosynthetically active algae spectrum over T5HO 3000K, effectively).

I do not suggest optics whatsoever, the point of optics is to drive the light down to the bottom of the tank, and we want the opposite - maximum spread = bare LEDs.

1W or 2W LEDs are great for distribution. One thing I've learned is that there is not much actual lumen output difference between 1W and 2W, it's not 2x like you would think, it's more like 1.1x, and 3W are not 3x a 1W, it's more like 1.8x (it's a marketing thing, hard to explain). This is why I chose a 1W fixture and I did 3/4" spacing.

LEDs get more efficient (on a lumens/watt basis) as you dim them so you could do 3W and dim them.

Remember that these are just educated guesses. I can't guarantee this will work perfectly. Just based on what I've read.

[Floyd R Turbo]

* How can we be scientific about ATS and provide empirical data to draw the correct conclusions?

I cant say the scientific things about ATS but Im using it and the result is awesome

getting the scientific data that you refer to would require some pretty expensive equipment. Getting relevant data would require that the person running the experiment actually understands how to properly construct and maintain a scrubber, and has access to pretty expensive equipment. For now, all we have is the proof of thousands of people worldwide successfully running scrubbers. And it is thousands.

* For what kind of tanks can an ATS be beneficial or dangerous?

I dont think that ATS could be a danger for any kind of tank. I saw it on fish only tank and I have it on my reef tank. as long as those algaes are in a safe zone there would be no problem, even when they are in tank they will be eaten by Tangs really fast!


Scrubbers have an extremely low chance of being dangerous to a system if constructed and maintained properly. If Alk/Cal/Mag dosing is done with 2-part type supplements and no water changes are performed, then the ionic balance can get skewed due to dilution, and an occasional PWC should be performed. If a calcium reactor or kalkwasser is used, this is not an issue, but the occasional PWC can't hurt, and by occasional I mean 5-10% every month or two. Again, not easy to test ionic balance, so I err on the side of caution.

* Light sources - can LED be more than experimental for ATS?

yellow leds are good,remember that ATS need a light with low kelvin.I use FPL Fluorescent with 2300K.

No, yellow LEDs are not what you want. You want 630nm and/or 660nm red. No whites of any kind, there's not enough red or blue component to them to do anything. If anything else, throw in one 425nm blue (looks violet almost) or 455nm blue (royal blue) for every 7 or 8 reds.

* Skimmers in cooperation with scrubbers - Advantages and disadvantages.
i dont think that skimmer is necessary for soft coral reef tanks( for SPS i think it must be) cause its eliminate the foods that Dissolved in water.believe it or not its been 6 month that i remove my skimmer cup and its only job is feeding air on water and every thing is really good condition with ATS.

All corals prefer to have massive amounts of food in the water column. Coral reefs have an incredible amount of food floating through the water column compared to our tanks. On person's tank (you know who), which is a 90 gallon system running 2 100-gallon rated scrubbers, has been running a continuous feeding system and recently achieved a food sautration level of approximately 50% of that of an actual reef and the dual-scrubbers could not keep up, and the corals were not adversely affected.

Excess food (organics) in the water do not adversely affect corals. Excess waste (inorganics) do. Skimmers remove organics before they can become inorganics. Scrubbers remove inorganics after they have been digested by the tank inhabitants. That is the (main) difference. If you run a tank with a skimmer only, then you will have low food and high waste (need PWCs). If you run a tank with a scrubber, you will have high food and low waste. If you run both, you will have low food and low waste.

* Scrubbers and carbon dosing - Competition or cooperation?
* Approaches to achieve 3D-scrubbing in both open and closed designs
* Ozone and UV combined with an ATS - good or bad?
i didnt have experience about that3 questions

Carbon dosing (I'm not an expert, so forgive me if I screw this up) is basically feeding the bacteria so the colony can grow faster and consume waste at a higher rate. It is effective at reducing waste, but this technique works in direct competition with the function of a scrubber, so they don't play well together - your scrubber will suffer because the bacteria 'get there' first.

You can get 3D in an open box if you put an enclosure around the screen with the bottom open (like if the screen terminates into a sump chamber). You will get some 3D growth. Closed bottom will probably get a little better. Either way the submerged section will get little if any growth.

Ozone and UV are not something I know a lot about.

* Effects on livestock - Good and bad
good. more pods and amphipods. and the algae that you'll collect will be a nice , fresh and really healthy food for all of your fishes specially tangs and clowns and damsels

+1 on pods. Microscopic food particles are also left in the water column for these guys to feed on in the tank so your pod, sponge, and filter feeder growth in the tank will explode.

* Long term usage of an ATS and how to collect data about it?

I use it for about year and the half and I haven't any problem for using it in my tank.
ask me and if I knew about it I'll share them with you :)

Right now 3 years is about the longest that the vertical waterfall type scrubber has been around. I have been using one for just over a year and have had little if any problems, besides the situations I created myself.

* How to avoid crashes - what are the safeguards?
the only problem will be Water pump failure. Have a good water pomp have a good ATS!

+1, cleaning said pump more often will lengthen life as well.

I just read this the other day regarding metals in DSBs.

Coral Magazine, Nov/Dec 2001, page 89:

"The primary material that cause trouble are metals, especially the toxic heavy metals that are often called "trace elements". These toxic materials are often added by aquarists in excessive amounts as additives for no good reason, and in most cases they become poisons in concentrations above those in natural sea water. In addition, most organisms get all the "trace elements" they can use from well-formulated foods."

"In most cases, actually more of these materials probably enter the reef tanks in foods than in additives, and after they get excreted by animals and dissolve in the water they get bound directly into the algae that need them for growth. Fortunately, algae are often exported from reef tanks, keeping the level of trace metals low".

Many hold to the theory that "old tank syndrome" is caused by a buildup of heavy metals. Algae does absorb most heavy metals, however the rate of absorption is not well established. Better than NOT absorbing them at all, however.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Anyone using an ATS on an NPS tank with VHF*?









*very heavy feeding. The sentence did not have enough TLAs. :D

[Floyd R Turbo]

There is a scrubber NPS tank on another forum, but I'm not sure if he's doing a constant feeder or not.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

It strikes me as the perfect match, since it's a tank format that needs high availability of food yet good control of waste. I've daydreamed about converting my big tank to all NPS/gorgs/etc. but don't really want to make the leap on such a large scale without seeing that it has worked well for others.

[Floyd R Turbo]

yes I have that exact same dream. After seeing Gary Parr's presentation at MACNA I want it even more. His comments were that he feeds something like 5x a day, target feeds, and does darn near daily PWCs. NPS corals seem to be 'coming up' quite a bit lately. I was thinking that I was going to do a big SPS tank once I get all the stock cleared out of my house (right now, nothing it mine!) but NPS is sounding pretty cool. Oh yeah you need to keep them cool too. Cool...

[TheFishMan65]

Your recommending 0.5 watts of LEDs per gallon. Would you mind converting that to mcd per gallon. I am looking at 2 LEDs:
1600 mcd / (1.85 V * 0.2 a) = 4,324 mcd / watt
2800 mcd / (1.7 V * 0.3a) = 5,490 mcd / watt
You will not neither of these are 1 watt :). But one produces 25% more light. Don't you love the LED efficiency it makes picking the right one that much harder :)

[Floyd R Turbo]

I wouldn't mind, if I knew what the heck you were talking about!!! You are ahead of me man. I just now learned via google what a millicandela rating is. I also learned that they don't easily convert to lumens. So you got me there.

[TheFishMan65]

Ok, do you have lumen rating for your reds? I don't think they convert easily, but it will give me an idea.

Thanks

[EDIT]
Link to the ones you bought

[Floyd R Turbo]

No idea. Fixture was made for me custom. I'll see what I can get out of him.

[N728NY]

* How can we be scientific about ATS and provide empirical data to draw the correct conclusions?

I cant say the scientific things about ATS but Im using it and the result is awesome

* For what kind of tanks can an ATS be beneficial or dangerous?

I dont think that ATS could be a danger for any kind of tank. I saw it on fish only tank and I have it on my reef tank. as long as those algaes are in a safe zone there would be no problem, even when they are in tank they will be eaten by Tangs really fast!

* Light sources - can LED be more than experimental for ATS?

yellow leds are good,remember that ATS need a light with low kelvin.I use FPL Fluorescent with 2300K.<br>

***Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the higher the kelvin rating on your lighting the better for the turf scrubbers? Please set me straight, have I been doing this backwards?:uhoh2:

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yes, you have it backwards. 2700-3000K for T5HO and CFL. 630/660nm red with maybe 425/455 blue in a 7 red to 1 blue ratio (blue is optional) for LED.

[N728NY]

Your recommending 0.5 watts of LEDs per gallon. Would you mind converting that to mcd per gallon. I am looking at 2 LEDs:
1600 mcd / (1.85 V * 0.2 a) = 4,324 mcd / watt
2800 mcd / (1.7 V * 0.3a) = 5,490 mcd / watt
You will not neither of these are 1 watt :). But one produces 25% more light. Don't you love the LED efficiency it makes picking the right one that much harder :)

This would be a more solid scientific thing to go by if you could either get a specific lumen or candela power that you need for the screens then you could easily run with that and convert that to any type of lighting that you desire to use (LED, CFL, Incondescent). Being wattage is only a measure of power which I am almost sure you will find that different brands of LEDs are going to have different mcds per watt (as it looks like FishMan may have discovered). Hope this helps a little, I'm an electrician so trying to throw what little knowledge I have about lighting. Maybe we could go back and see what cfl's worked best, see what the candela output was for that bulb, and then we could easily add as many LEDs we need to produce the same candela power?

[N728NY]

Holy Cow!!! I just replaced my cfls with a high kelvin rating! Going to definitely fix that tomorrow!! Maybe that's why I haven't seen a lot of growth! Thanks a ton!

[N728NY]

Holy Cow!!! I just replaced my cfls with a high kelvin rating! Going to definitely fix that tomorrow!! Maybe that's why I haven't seen a lot of growth! Thanks a ton!

LOL I just replaced them! Swapped some bulbs out from around the house. Wife won't be too happy. She hates the higher kelvin bulbs. She'll be happier when I tell her it was for the survival of the tank! How about wattage? I been using 13watt cfls (equivalent 60w incondescent). Have I at least been right on them?

[TheFishMan65]

I found a chart (http://www.eleekinc.com/eleekchart.pdf)online; great reference if it is correct (I have no reason not to believe it)
13 watt CFL produces 850 lumen
18 watt CFl produces 1100 lumen
23 watt CFL produces 1600
Based on this run a 23, 13 then 18 for efficiency of lumens per watt. So at 1 watt per gallon that is somewhere between 61 and 69 lumens per gallon.
Now the problem with low power LEDs is that they are listed in MCD which apparently does not have a direct ratio to Lumens, but let me go see what I can find.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Your recommending 0.5 watts of LEDs per gallon. Would you mind converting that to mcd per gallon. I am looking at 2 LEDs:
1600 mcd / (1.85 V * 0.2 a) = 4,324 mcd / watt
2800 mcd / (1.7 V * 0.3a) = 5,490 mcd / watt
You will not neither of these are 1 watt :). But one produces 25% more light. Don't you love the LED efficiency it makes picking the right one that much harder :)

Can you link to these LEDs?

There are a few HP LEDs out there that I was looking at but these sound like old fashioned low power LEDs. Would be interesting to compare efficiency, and also distribution, as some of the red HPs have pretty narrow built-in optics, unfortunately.

[TheFishMan65]

I did a search on Mouser (or maybe Future), so I don't have link. If you can't find them let me know and I will try and track them down. They are older T1 3/4 gumdrop types. I thought maybe if the efficiency was close this would be cheaper and give better spread.

Apparently the Cree site is down so I am having trouble figuring efficiency but I found an Binning and labeling (Apr 08). The best Reds only produce about 40 Lumen at 350ma.

Ahha from led supply 3 up star 137.1 lumen at .35amps and 6.3 volts so 62 lumens per watt (must be a better grade then the old dinning and labeling). So not much more efficient than CFL, but all the spectrum is usable by the algae.

[TheFishMan65]

Ok so apparently Candella is light in a cone and Lumen is total light output. So there is not direct comparison, but I did find this (http://led.linear1.org/how-do-i-convert-between-candelas-and-lumens/):
You can’t directly convert since they measure different things. The most useful explanation I’ve found is that lumens measure light output at the source, while candelas measure the light emitted per unit of solid angle, a quantity that conveniently does not vary with the distance from the source of the light. So, they measure different things, and there’s no direct conversion. Update: I didn’t find that answer very satisfying either, so I worked out the conversion details and made a conversion calculator for you to use.

Light bulbs and LEDs sold for illumination tend to carry ratings in lumens. Indicator LEDs tend to be rated in candelas.

You can also use this table to get an approximate conversion from candelas to lumens. Find your LED beam width in degrees, and divide the candelas number in your specs by the cd/lm factor listed for that beam angle to get lumens.

beam angle cd/lm
5 167.22
10 41.82
15 18.60
20 10.48
25 6.71
30 4.67
35 3.44
40 2.64
45 2.09

[TheFishMan65]

Here is an interesting one (a link (http://www.futureelectronics.com/en/Technologies/Product.aspx?ProductID=WP1503SRCFKINGBRIGHT6206692)just for DWZM)
5200 lumen at 20ma and 1.85 volts and 30 degrees
so 5.200 / 4.67 (from table above) = 1.11 lumens
1.11 / (.02 * 1.85) = 30 lumen per watt
So half the efficiency of the XP-Es I found above. But it is only $0.20 as opposed to $12.60 for the one from LED Supply. Sounds great but you need 137.1 / 1.11 = 123 of these so $24.70. So the moral of the story is a good 3 watt LED is still better than lots (yes I mean) lots of little ones.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I'm not sure how this really applies. I know that the fixtures I had made contain 120 degree LEDs 3/4" OC and they're 1W each. They are blindingly bright and I have no doubt that they will grow algae very well. I understand the candela thing as this is a measure of light when you focus the beam into a specific angle, and if you allow the light to spread across a greater angle then you get a lower candela level spread across a greater angle. This is the point though of an LED fixture for a scrubber, you want the light spread out as much as possible so that you don't burn the algae.

For most people doing DIY, 3W LEDs will probably do just fine, but those are for the DIYers, and they are taking into consideration many other factors specific to their system. They can make modifications to allow for diffusion and distance specific to their setup/space limitations. A stock fixture with an array of 1W LEDs will be more robust for those not quite so handy.

Even coverage is the issue I am trying to achieve with the 1W array as I believe this is important for primary filtration and minimum screen size. the information you are posting is very interesting, I hadn't thought about any of that being a factor.

[TheFishMan65]

Actually the XP-E I mentioned above are only running at .74 watts for .35 amps so maybe 1.5 amps at 700. So in that sense they are 1 watt LED. Ah the fun of varying the current. Did you find a link to the ones you had made?

I will be replacing bio-pellets and people complain about the cost of replacing those. I have not replaced many and would hate to see the cost of electricity for the scrubber be more that the pellet replacement cost. That is why I am looking at efficiency. And because efficiency can vary so much I was trying to figure out a better rule than .5 watts per gallon. In the above cases effiency doubled does that mean .25 watts per gallon of good LEDs or 1 watt for bad LEDs. Now I think you see where I am heading.

[TheFishMan65]

Actually the XP-E I mentioned above are only running at .74 watts for .35 amps so maybe 1.5 amps at 700. So in that sense they are 1 watt LED. Ah the fun of varying the current. Did you find a link to the ones you had made?

I will be replacing bio-pellets and people complain about the cost of replacing those. I have not replaced many and would hate to see the cost of electricity for the scrubber be more that the pellet replacement cost. That is why I am looking at efficiency. And because efficiency can vary so much I was trying to figure out a better rule than .5 watts per gallon. In the above cases efficiency doubled does that mean .25 watts per gallon of good LEDs or 1 watt for bad LEDs. Now I think you see where I am heading.

[Floyd R Turbo]

you have to remember that the new lighting guidelines and feeding guidelines have kind of changed the rules. Originally it was 1 sq in per gallon, and 1 watt per square inch. Now it's 12 square inches or screen per cube of food (or equivalent). Also you can double the lighting to 2W/ sq in and halve the photoperiod to power through to the green algae.

From what I've seen for results from good DIY LED builds, it seems that LEDs were ahead of this game. The intensity of light in the spectrum that algae prefers without excess light in bandwidths that algae doesn't efficiently use seems to lead to green growth much more readily. So I still say that, as a rule of thumb, 1W LED per sq in of screen (dimensional, which means 0.5W /sq in on each side if you want to get picky) is what we should be shooting for. I can't recall what the wattage rating on the fixture I have it, but I believe it is in the range of 65W and I intended it to illuminate a screen that was about 8 x 15 but it may be slightly smaller, so I'm hitting this right at about 0.5 W/ sq in on each side with 2 fixtures.

If you go by the old lighting method, then yes you could go 0.25W/sq in on each side, or 0.5W/sq dimensionally. Just so I'm clear if you were trying to light up a 10x10 screen, 100 sq in, 50W LED total, 25W LED on each side, which 'translates' to 100W T5HO total, 50W T5HO on each side.

That is of course assuming that I am correct in being able to reduce wattage by half when going to LED vs T5HO/CFL. And this assumption mandates the use of 630/660 reds, maybe a blue or two, and NO whites, nothing else.

I like where you are going with this though. Really pinning down the exact efficiency of various types/brands/bins of LEDs could help you get the 'perfect' efficiency. Though I'm sure most people would just add a couple more LEDs and call it good, but you go man!

No word on the LEDs on my fixtures yet. Too busy...

[TheFishMan65]

If you go by the old lighting method, then yes you could go 0.25W/sq in on each side, or 0.5W/sq dimensionally. Just so I'm clear if you were trying to light up a 10x10 screen, 100 sq in, 50W LED total, 25W LED on each side, which 'translates' to 100W T5HO total, 50W T5HO on each side.
Not quite. What I am referring to is that the HP LEDs produce 60 lumens per watt. The gumdrops produce 30 lumens per watt. So if your fixture is 65 watts is it 3900 watts (60 * 65) or 1950 watts(30 * 65). Now say I want the same amount of light because I have the exact same fixture as you (you made it I just need to supply my own lights :)). Without knowing which LEDs you are running I could get double the light (gum drops you HP me) or half the light (HP you gum drops me). I run the risk of poor growth from no light or burning the algae and my fixture is the exact same as your right down to the LED wattage. I post the problem :headwalls:

I know get dimmable drivers so the algae can be acclimated.:lolspin:

[Floyd R Turbo]

I see where you're coming from. It is very good that you brought this up. What is a gumdrop though?

[TheFishMan65]

Look up 5mm or T1 3/4 LEDs. They don't need MCPCB and are usually used as indicators.

This is close (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Lumex/SSL-LX100T123SIC/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMu4Prknbu83y3kkrbLqi3KQbMiqUxfkDoI%3d). Didn't look up the exact size of that one, but you will get the idea.

[Floyd R Turbo]

OK, that's what I thought they were. I would never recommend those anyways, only HP LEDs on stars or PCBs.

[TheFishMan65]

I thought they might be cheaper. I had just never done the math to figure out how many it would take. Many more than I thought (should have believed kcress). I still wonder how much variation there is in HP leds.

[Nathan.Titulaer]

I am restarting my scrubber project and was looking at Home Depot and they sell 2700 k Bulbs with LED's has anyone thought of using these? In my mind if the same kelvin works for CFL and T5 why not the LED bulbs? Mine won't be up and running until after new years but I have a 12x12 red and blue Ebay grow panel laying around I will use on one side and debating a LED bulb on the other.

[Floyd R Turbo]

$5 says that panel is the 'gumdrop' type LED that TFM and I just discussed. It has been tried, not intense enough. The home depot LED lamps are not grow lamps. CFL 2700k and LED 2700k are not the same. a CFL uses different combinations of phosphors on the inside of the lamp to achieve a certain color temp, so you can have 2 lamps with different spectral graphs and they will both be 2700K. LEDs are not that way, so they are not comparable. For scrubbers with LED you need something that is specifically a grow lamp. All red and maybe a few blues. It will not look like any lamp that you would put in your home. For instance, this is what the light I had made looks like when shining on my blinds in our house

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/Miscellaneous/DSC03038.jpg

[Rafi]

<br>

***Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the higher the kelvin rating on your lighting the better for the turf scrubbers? Please set me straight, have I been doing this backwards?:uhoh2:

its simple.with 10000 or higher kelvin you'll never see dangerous turf on your tank.mostly you can see brown Algae which is not a big deal for tank.
you may notice people who use T5 after 6 month change their lamps because the quality reduced and with bad quality you will see turfs and we exactly want a bad light!
I have yellow LED on my tank(just one spot) and i have lots of algae on that place.

take a look at my tank and my ATS :
64Gallon tank with 42 leds(3W half blue half white)

http://deltamarine.ir/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=446&d=1317022399

this is FPL florescent that i use for my ATS (2800 lumen is for yellow color and 2600 for white)


http://deltamarine.ir/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=448&d=1317022824

and here come the result:

http://deltamarine.ir/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=253&d=1315148437

http://deltamarine.ir/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=254&d=1315148949

http://deltamarine.ir/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=596&d=1318308507

and ATS base

http://deltamarine.ir/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=972&d=1320423960

And ATS with 36W yellow FPL at the top of the sump

http://deltamarine.ir/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1030&d=1320673007


ps. sorry for my bad writing. English is not my first language :)

[Floyd R Turbo]

Rafi, your pictures aren't showing up. I can tell you that you are definitely wrong on the use of yellow or blue/white for growing algae on a scrubber with maximum efficiency. I'm not saying that you won't grow algae, because just about any light source will grow *some* algae. But the results of literally hundreds of scrubber builds working on tanks throughout the world has revealed that the *best* light spectrum for algae growth is heavy in red, with maybe some blue.

This chart explains it

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/Miscellaneous/led_problem.jpg

The yellow spectrum is right in the middle at the lowest point. Chlorophyll A and B do not use this efficiently. You cannot rely on this color temperature for effective filtration.

If you're talking about how the lights "look" to the human eye, that's immaterial. The CFLs that are recommended for scrubbers are the "warm white" (generally, 2700-3000K specifically) which are heavy in red spectrum and produce the best growth.

Like I said, your scrubber may grow algae just fine and might keep your N and P down to manageable levels in the system that you run, but if there is a mitigation circumstance, such as a fish dying that you can't get to, or if a kid dumps a bunch of food in the tank, or something else our of the ordinary, it may not be able to handle the issue because the scrubber is not efficient or effective enough. Properly built scrubbers are capable of handling such situations and can be a huge safety net for a very expensive system.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

I would be interested to hear from people who are using a format other than the standard "hang a sheet of mesh from a slotted pipe." I understand why this is the most popular approach and that it's easy to build and get results from, but I'm wondering if it's best for me in the long term.

I am most interested in configurations that:

1) Are cheap
2) Are more compact/self contained (this is my biggest complaint with the common vertical screen, by the time you've put lamps with good reflectors and splash guards on it, it's HUGE and awkward.)

[BluScrnOdeth]

It wont be huge and awkward for long, im working on a design i plan on starting in Jan and have a couple beta testers lined up.

[Nathan.Titulaer]

I get what you are saying about the led vs cfl. I figured as much but did not want to admit it to myself. My led panel is a grow light panel off Ebay so it is heavy in the red and some blues. It has a 12x12 screen for a 40B so I am hoping to experiment with different lights and designs to get the best use of space and scrubbing.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

This chart explains it


The chart makes it clear why you'd want 660nm red LEDs and makes it pretty clear that typical cool/neutral/warm white LEDs are all bad choices.

But why aren't we throwing RBs or violets on the rigs in much higher ratios, given the huge spikes around 420 and 450 nm?

[TheFishMan65]

And why 630 while we are at it?

TIA

[Floyd R Turbo]

because the hort guy I have been working with said that 630s flat out beat 660s for plant growth watt for watt due to intensity. It is not known whether this translate to algae. hence my ever-pending experiment

[N728NY]

This is all good stuff! I can't wait to see what you guys come up with as definite answers! Some of this is a bit over my head, but it looks like once it's all dialed in we will have a definite answer on which exact led configuration may work the best! It's too bad the led retrofit bulbs can't work, would definitely make it easy for everyone to just swap out their current cfls.

[Northside Reef]

For scrubbers with LED you need something that is specifically a grow lamp. All red and maybe a few blues. It will not look like any lamp that you would put in your home. For instance, this is what the light I had made looks like when shining on my blinds in our house

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/Miscellaneous/DSC03038.jpg

Does this look right?

http://ledwholesalers.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=398

Might be a little too small I am guessing.

[Floyd R Turbo]

That's the right LEDS, but the placement of the blues is not distributed well (all in the center does you nothing IMO) and they're 1W LEDs with lenses and 36 LEDs on a 10x10 panel. My fixture has over 100 in the same if not smaller area. So it might work, also it looks open (no housing) so probably not for use near water, no cooling, etc...

[Northside Reef]

Thanks, I agree it definitely looks suspect, I will probably do a DYI model and get my feet wet with these LED's.

[el aguila]

Anyone have a good link to some red 1W or 3W LEDs at a reasonable price?

I like the price on these but don't like the 60 degree viewing angles:
http://www.clay-boa.com/deep-red-660nm-2-pack-1-99ea/

[Floyd R Turbo]

link blocked

[el aguila]

Sorry, I didn't think about them not being a RC sponsor.

Anyway the LED group buy has some red 3W LEDs that are right at $2 ea but they have 60 degree viewing angels. I would like something that has more like a 100 degree viewing angle for around the same price.

[el aguila]

I found these on Northside Reefs link:
http://ledwholesalers.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=274

Not alot of info here, I guess that they are less than .5W per LED, but if they can be mounted close to the screen, I would think that they would work.

[Floyd R Turbo]

13.8W total for the fixture, 225 LEDs = 0.06W per LED. One of these fixture *might* be equivalent to one 18W or 23W CFL, but that's about it. Also it's 12 x 12 and that's way, way to little light for a 12x12 screen.

[Nathan.Titulaer]

I have a similar panel to the one listed and it needs to be at least 6-8 inches away or it just makes little dots on the screen. I was also enticed by the low price but it was no where near what I had hoped.

[el aguila]

Thanks for the replies from both of you.

I will probably go with the 3W reds from Rapid LED and place them about 6" from the screen unless someone can come up with a link for 1W, or something similar in price to the LEDs from Group Buy.

[Gorgok]

If you don't particularly care about efficiency (i would assume they aren't at least) or name brand stuff for the ATS, you can get some real cheap 3W 630nm reds here: http://www.suntekstore.com/goods-14003190-10pcs+3W+High+Power+Star+LED+Light+Lamp+Bulb+%28Red%29.html

Get 2 sets and price gets discounted too =D. Plus they have working coupons for something like 15% off. And shipping is free... I got 2 sets to replace my whites as suggested, and i'll add some more reds at the same time, because i really couldn't say no to $0.97 per LED.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Interesting, except I wonder what this disclaimer means:

"We ship directly from Hong Kong, China. Import duties, taxes and charges are not included in the item price or shipping charges. These charges are the buyer's responsibility."

I would expect about 2 out of every 10 of these to fail pretty quickly since they're cheap, but dang that is pretty cheap...

[Gorgok]

They will most likely put 'gift' on any customs forms thereby going past any fees... It seems common practice for shipments from China in general and i have no idea how legal that is. I don't know enough about LEDs to say much about them failing... it seems like such a simple thing that failure would be pretty hard to do. Then again just looking for failed parking videos shows how much failure people really can do on simple things.

[el aguila]

Thanks for the link Gorgok.

Actually I found some 1W a little cheaper on E-bay. Going with 72 per side - 70% Red 660, 22% Red 630, and 8% RB. Going to order a few extra RB and CW for moonlights.

I realize that they might not be the best concerning effieincy, but they are surely better than the CFLs that I'm presently running.

Curious those who are presently running 1W LEDs, are yours about 2" from your screen?

[TheFishMan65]

I ordered from Cutter a while back for a group buy. I did quit a bit of searching and finally concluded that LEDs have no import fees/additional taxes/tariff/or what ever it is called. There is a rather lengthy Government document that spells it out (if interested I can try and find it again). I also did not have a problem with the shipment YMMV

[der_wille_zur_macht]

el agulia, those LEDs you found on eBay, if the specs are real, are actually pretty good. And a fraction of the cost of other alternatives.

I'm just curious to find a similarly-cheap source for other wavelengths. iirc, your eBay find was 630nm?

Also curious how close people are putting LEDs to screens. I'd like to get mine as close as possible to take up less room. Ideally I'd like a skimmer I can put on the eurobrace of my tank, which means I have roughly 5" of width to work with, plus maybe a few more inches if absolutely required and I'll just let it hang over the edge of the brace.

[Floyd R Turbo]

der willie, do you mean a scrubber you can put on the euro? and what eBay listing are you referring to I can't find an eBay link.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Yeah, I want something I can set on my eurobrace, or hang above it. Basically, my canopy area is a rough 6' x 4' rectangle about 28" tall, and there's a ~5" eurobrace around the entire perimeter. I had originally thought of doing a long, very narrow trough-style, but I'm thinking that might not be optimal. Now I'm daydreaming of a self-enclosed vertical screen unit with LEDs. Ideally the whole thing would fit in an acrylic box large enough to house the screen, with a minimal thickness so it could be located right on the eurobrace.

The driving force here is that I'd love to actually get rid of my sump. Every time I open my stand doors I shake my head at the "waste" in terms of energy and space considering I have a roughly 75g sump and a gigantic pump, pretty much just to have a place to put the ATS. I have an overflow box into which I'd put ATO switches, a heater, and a submersible pump to run the ATS, and it would basically become an in-tank sump.

Edit - the above user had posted an ebay link in a thread in DIY, that's what I was referencing.

PS - my tank is relatively lightly stocked and I feed sparingly most of the time, so based on the "feeding size" I don't really need a large screen.

[el aguila]

el agulia, those LEDs you found on eBay, if the specs are real, are actually pretty good. And a fraction of the cost of other alternatives.

I'm just curious to find a similarly-cheap source for other wavelengths. iirc, your eBay find was 630nm?

Also curious how close people are putting LEDs to screens. I'd like to get mine as close as possible to take up less room. Ideally I'd like a skimmer I can put on the eurobrace of my tank, which means I have roughly 5" of width to work with, plus maybe a few more inches if absolutely required and I'll just let it hang over the edge of the brace.

I'm at work and can't pull up E-Bay, but this E-Bay seller has about whatever you want. There is a link for the LEDs on a thread that I posted in DIY asking about drivers. Look in their seller's store.

Looks like I'm going to solder this ATS up before I finish my DT lighting phase 2.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Good, you can be the test dummy. :)

[Floyd R Turbo]

Sounds like you have a good idea of what you need to have for a top-of-tank scrubber. That's what I'm running now and the main drawbacks are controlling the water drop into the tank and the bubbles that accompany it, and blocking the light from the DT. Both have caused an issue for me (it's on a temporary setup as I am housing the system while my customer's new tank is getting set up). The noise of the water dropping to the tank is also a concern.

Having some kind of baffle system or bubble diffuser that hangs into the tank for the effluent off the scrubber is pretty much a must have. Plus making all of this work without interfering with the DT lights.

Here's what mine looks like right now

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/FloydRTurbo/2011%20Aquarium%20Pics/120%20Reef/Temp%20Setup/2011-06-18/DSC02108.jpg

doing with with LEDs would require quite a bit of black acrylic to shield the light. When that nice red light gets into the DT, esp at night, it's just a matter of time before you get some algae growing in there. Plus protecting the lights themselves with the acrylic enclosure.

Supposedly the new design is geared toward a sumpless setup, but no one will see that until March :(

[der_wille_zur_macht]

I need to do a sketchup model, but my design idea is basically a big "U" of black acrylic. This will form the sides and bottom of the unit. The pipe will run across the top. A panel of clear acrylic will be located on each side of the screen (really close to the screen). These clear panels along with the black acrylic form the "wet" chamber around the screen. The black acrylic "U" will be a few inches wider than the panels, such that it extends out far enough to meet a flat aluminum panel on each side, which will form the outermost "wall" on each side. This will be the heatsink for the LEDs. There will be a loose piece of black acrylic on top for a lid.

This should form a light-tight box with zero leakage, but will expose the backs of the two heatsinks to free air for good cooling.

So the overall design is similar to your unit there, but with black acrylic on the "ends" and bottom, and a flat heatsink basically where you have your reflectors.

That just leaves the drain as a problem to solve and I don't see that as a huge obstacle. I'd imagine you could build a mini standpipe of some sort to help with bubble trapping. Plus if I'm dumping bubbles into a back corner of this gigantic tank it won't exactly be as noticeable as the same amount of bubbles in a typical tank.

How wide is your unit? How much narrower do you think you could get it? I guess this is based on, how close to the screens could you place an array of those 1W LEDs?

[Floyd R Turbo]

9.75" wide. Due to the components, can't get much closer.

There's probably a limit to how narrow you want the box to be, or how close you want the panels to be to the screen. Once the 3D growth kicks in, it can fill it up quick.

In most cases it's mandated by the diameter of the bulkhead flange if you have one, which is usually a little less than 3". I don't see a need to get any closer than 1.5" from screen to edge of lamp. For my 1W LED array I can't imagine it's any different, just far enough away so that you don't get any "spotting" effect. but that'll be part of the experiment as well.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

If I could get the whole thing 8" from edge to edge I would be happy.

[Floyd R Turbo]

If using 3W LEDs I'd go bare and put a diffuser plate next to the clear acrylic, then 3" wide box (inside) and 1-2" between LED and diffuser/acrylic, add the thickness of the stars and aluminum and you're right about 8" I think. If using 1W LEDs you might be able to go closer and no diffuser.

Oh hey I just talked to my hydro guy and they apparently have some new fixture coming out with a next generation LED that is not really considered a 3W because it puts out more lumens and uses less wattage. It's starting to get silly now because the current 3W chips don't use 3W, they use more like 2.2W and these new ones use even less power and produce more lumens.

It's kind of looking like the LED industry needs a new way to classify LEDs, not based on the wattage. Because that method is way outdated an only a marketing thing currently.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

It's kind of looking like the LED industry needs a new way to classify LEDs, not based on the wattage. Because that method is way outdated an only a marketing thing currently.

None of the real "players" from a marketing or manufacturing standpoint refer to the LEDs based on power dissipation, it's really only an approach that has sprung up at the hobby level. Anyways, I totally agree, it's a very meaningless term to the point of being harmful in how it's used.

But yeah, the LEDs I'm considering are "1W" LEDs anyways, so I'm hoping I can get them really close.

[el aguila]

The 660s were double the price of the 625s at about $1.30 ea for the 660s.

Well the Test Dummy has ordered his 1W LEDs. If they get here before Christmas, I wonder if my wife would be too unhappy if I took them with us while traveling out of state for Christmas?

It would be a good chance to knock them out. I've been doing a side job and can hardly find time to do anything on the tank - Extra $$ for Christmas and some NICE Frags!!!

[TheFishMan65]

Tell her they are Christmas decorations. The green ones just aren't in yet. Show her a picture of Turbo's house she will have to approve :)

[Floyd R Turbo]

Here is a bit of good news. Someone was performing a test on a T5HO 3D scrubber with one side using a Nova Extreme 1127 (or whatever) with 2 2700-3000K T5HO lamps, and the other side was a e-Shine 50W or whatever that small fixture they have is - it matches the length of the Nova but is a bit narrower. This is the fixture http://www.eshinegrow.com/grow/3g-50w-led-grow-light.html

He did this for 10 or so weeks (he cleans "when he can" so some growth periods were longer) The results are telling:

After about 10 or so cleanings, without a doubt the LED side is better. Grows sooner, thicker, and one that I did not expect... the light penetrates deeper to keep the roots alive longer, which makes sense because since green absorbs blue and yellow, the red continues through it.

Keep in mind that his system runs 2 of these scrubbers so the LED is outperforming not just 1 T5HO 2-lamp fixture, but 3.

This means I don't have to run my experiment against a T5HO, or at least it puts it on the back burner. If I get bored I might try to see how many T5HOs it takes to compare.

Incidentally the fixture I have runs all 1W Cree 630/435/455 and Bridgeluxe 660nm I believe.

[BluScrnOdeth]

very good to know becaus eim going to be buying some LEDs in the next couple months once i get my system designed.

[slow_leak]

It's been some time since ATS links and poss have been here.

Can some one redirect me to best in class examples of this technique? I want photos and actual results. I have run one for a year but ended up running with a skimmer to get the results I wanted.

[parrotchute]

I'm running the eshine LEDs, and they definitely seem bright and capable of growing algae. I was just told my screen is probably too big (allowing the algae to spread out and burn), which could explain why I'm having trouble growing thick green algae.

Not sure how to fix it effectively without rebuilding my box.

I'll post a video if anyone wants to see the eshine LEDs.
Thanks for the info Floyd.

[el aguila]

My LEDs arrived just before Christmas; got back from visiting relatives late last night.

I need to pick up some black acrylic and get my heat sink figured out. Hoping to get it done this weekend.

After what has been recently posted, I'm cutting my screen size down which is presently 21" long. It basically just grows brown algae. Originally I went bigger thinking that if something went wrong in the tank - I would have a safety factor. I guess I need to do a little redesigning on size.

[Floyd R Turbo]

After several epic failures to convert an excel file to a html table format, I just uploaded this to google docs

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnHlnR_1kjCldGJpdlYwTC1BampVZWZrS3Z6endKTXc

This is a comparison spreadsheet of PAR readings below an e-Shine 50W fixture and a Nova Extreme 1127 T5HO fixture with 2 x 24W 3000K grow lamps (the ones I use).

A few considerations to make:

The e-shine readings were taken with the fixture out of the box and turned on a sum total of less than 5 minutes prior to the test. So there might be some variation in long-term readings.

1) I ran out of new T5HO lamps so I had to use ones I had removed from the scrubber already. So the T5HO lamps are at the end of their useful scrubbing life, 90 days x 18 hours = 1620 hours. I'm not sure how this affects the PAR readings. The Nova Extreme 1127 fixture was brand new out of the box, I just switched the lamps.

2) All readings were taken with an Apogee meter with the fixture approximately 2" from the top of the sensor. The sensor was pointed straight up. I made a stand-off bracket our of Duplo Legos (highly scientific) and laid white graph paper on the table below the fixture and marked each measurement point on 1" increments. I measured along the center axis of the fixture, then along lines 1" and 2" from the center axis.

3) I did the e-Shine fixture first, then the Nova. The Nova fixture has an extra row of data points at the ends nearest the endpoints of the lamps. I didn't realize this until afterwards. Removing these data points (A ans S) raises the sum and lowers the average so that the E-Shine is about 140% of the Nova on both overall.

4) I had to let the Nova fixture warm up for a while before the readings were consistent along the axis. I took one set of readings along half of the center axis, then did 1" and 2" off that half, then went back to the center axis on the other side and the readings did not mirror the first half. When I went back to double-check the first half center axis, the PAR values had dropped 10-15%. I let the fixture run for about 20 minutes, then the readings had stabilized. Perhaps someone can shed some light on what is going on there. I thought T5HO was supposed to get more efficient as they heated up.

As you can see from the results, the e-Shine fixture, even though it has a smaller profile (both the enclosure and with respect to the element exposure, meaning the T5HO are longer and the window area on the fixture is wider), it is higher on every number except for the extreme corner data points.

On the flip side, the max to min ratio on the e-Shine fixture is much higher. Meaning that the readings in the center of almost 700 PAR and 120ish on the edges is a larger swing than the Nova of 460 to 110ish

The PAR meter reads out a little higher under the blue LEDs. Being this close to the fixture, there is little blending effect so the e-Shine fixture has a much higher variance of intensity throughout the sample field. The Nova fixture has a much more consistent peak intensity in the middle of the fixture and the number generally drop off as you get away from the dead center of the fixture.

I messed around with the PAR meter a bit to test a few things. Obviously pointing the sensor straight up all the time did not result in the maximum reading. On the +/-2 lines, if I pointed the meter towards the source, the number would increase, significantly at times. At the center line, I was able to get maximum PAR readings of over 800 on the e-Shine fixture. I was able to get readings of about 500 on the Nova fixture, but barely. +/-2 readings on the Nova fixture would also increase, but not as noticeably as the e-Shine fixture.

So being my first run at doing this, the results are far from scientific, but nonetheless very interesting.

What it tells me is that at the worst case, the e-Shine LED fixture is comparable if not better than the Nova T5HO fixture. Even if you de-rate the e-Shine fixture by, say, 20% for end-of-life after 7 years of running at 18 hours/day, then compensate the Nova fixture to take into effect the lamp intensity drop-off from 1600 hours of use over 3 months (increase output by 20%) then they are equal with the Nova at it's best and the e-Shine at it's worst.

Another factor that seems to be making a big difference is, as predicted, spectrum specific focus. The e-Shine fixture with 660nm LEDs has been shown, at least in a couple of instances, to equal and somewhat outperform T5HO. The intensity readings I measured seem to support the concept that the LED fixtures tuned to a specific output wavelength provide a much higher amount of useable light for the algae than T5HO, which has a lot of 'wasted' bandwidth. I think it's fair to say you can de-rate the T5HO fixture by 25% and maybe as much as 50%, which, at worst case, put the LED fixture at about double the useful light. Experiments performed long ago (meaning more than 6 months ago) have resulted in similar results (real-life results of algal growth on scrubbers). With this taken into consideration, and incorporating the 'double-light' scrubber, you could likely run an LED fixture such as the e-Shine fixture for half the time that you would need to run the Nova T5HO fixture, meaning the 50,000 hour life would make the fixture last for 14 years instead of 7, if the driver doesn't burn out before then (which it probably would).

So, talking life-cycle cost, the equivalency point of the Nova to the e-Shine, not taking energy savings into account, works out to be about 9 months.

The e-shine fixture runs about $70, plus $75 shipping for 2, and add 3.9% + $0.30 paypal fees that they make you pay when you buy from them bring the cost of 2 fixtures to about $220.

The Nova fixture costs $70 with shipping if you shop around. You will need to buy new lamps, cheapest is 8 for $50 with shipping. So 2 fixtures runs about $140 and 12 lamps about $75, for a total of $215. That would give you the fixtures plus lamps for 270 days. After that, it's going to cost you $100/year in materials (4 lamps x 4 lamp changes per year = 16 lamps @ $50 for 8 lamps). If you compare to the e-Shine fixture at 7 year life, you will have saved over $600 in material cost alone.

This also assumes that the non-waterproof e-Shine fixtures don't fail prematurely due to inadequate construction or lack of appropriate moisture protection by the end user.

As far as energy costs go, I know that the Nova pulls about 57 watts each and the e-shine about 47 watts. So there's not a whole lot of savings there. The LEDs likely pull about 30 watts, add the driver and 2 fans and you're at about 47. However, if you run then half the time per day, and you probably could, then you save 50%. In that case, 2x57 = 114 W * 18 hr = 2 kWh for Nova, 2x47 = 94 W * 9 hr = 0.85 kWh. In CA, that's huge. In Iowa, at $0.07-$0.08/KWh, not so huge.

I haven't ran any numbers to compare CFLs to LEDs but I would expect the life-cycle cost to be a little better for CFL as the initial costs are lower, but using comparable CFL to T5HO wattage, the average and max/min will be much worse for CFL, so I would expect LED to reign supreme.

But, it looks like any way you cut it, LED beats the pants off of fluorescent, hands down. Now it's just figuring out exactly how badly shredded the pants are after the beat-down is over.

[stormrider27]

/\ Excellent summary!

[OkStudent]

http://<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/ednrobin/6698307651/" title="P1140001 by edschwers, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7159/6698307651_24025543a6.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="P1140001"></a>

[el aguila]

Got my heat sink figured out - area for LEDs is 11 1/4 x 9".

Just wondering for those of you who have 1W LEDs how close together did you place them and are you happy with this over a period of time?

I used 50 LEDs per side 4 RB, 10 630, 36 660. Without any prior expermintation, I placed them on a 1" grid as follows:

X 1" X 1" X 1" X
1" X 1" X 1" X 1"
X 1" X 1" X 1" X

I got one side wired up at about midnight last night (Sorry no pics - it was late, and I'm writing this from work - pics later). In looking at the unit, I feel like it could be brighter. Right now I'm having an algae issue because of changing DT lighting and my CFL scrubber is being outcompeted in algae growth by the DT.

There is enough room in between LEDs to add another LED in the center and almost double the amount of LEDs. I am considering this - any input from anyone who has had a 1W LED scrubber going for awhile?

Presently going to go ahead and assemble everything and try it out. If I add more LEDs I'll have to order more plus another driver. As an experiment, I may run it as is for a month and then add the LEDs to see the difference.

Hopefully I'll be able to get the scubber boxes put together today. Pics will follow once I have time.

[OkStudent]

This is on a hypo tank at 1.009. It is 10 x 7 with 300 GPH which is 30 GPH per inch. I could only get 300 GPH out of the Mag supreme 7.0 with about 4' of head. Lighting is a 45 watt full spectrum on the second pic and a 23 W 2700k on the top pic. They are on 16/ 8 schecule. Just felt obligated to post my results from all I have learned from this thread. I am happy with the growth and my PO4 was .35 Nitrates 0. Will test again when it gets going good in a few weeks. Chato was growing good with the full spectrum and it is still shining on the chaeto. Will probably put a ATS on my 180G in a month or two. I feed this hypo tank about 80 1mm pellets a day and a protein skimmer will not work at such low salinity.
Thanks again guys for all your info.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/ednrobin/6698307957/" title="P1140002 by edschwers, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7167/6698307957_1303a281d9_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="P1140002"></a>
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/ednrobin/6698307651/" title="P1140001 by edschwers, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7159/6698307651_24025543a6_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="P1140001"></a>

[trueperc]

Just concerning using the led in this set up. I may be looking building a nicer set up with a led fixture. I might have a choice of either getting a grow fixture with either 1w or 3w leds but I am curious with the power of leds how close are you guys putting them to the screen.

[ReefTeacher]

where can you buy the e-shine fixture? and what wattage recommendations do you make for a given screen?

[el aguila]

Duuuh, I was looking at my driver last night and figured out that I had it hooked to double the amount of LEDs that it is supposed to work with. I guess you chalk it up to a midnight error. Everything is brighter now!

Unless another emergency pops up at work, it looks like I'll have to wait until next weekend to glue up the scrubber.

[Ansphire]

Hey guys revisiting the photohibition topic.. any one else tested it yet?.. i tried it on my screen and the algae turned a slimmy red.. weird.. i was running 4on 4off.

Something else i was thinking about is the idea of running the scrubber lights opposed to dt lights.. to me it makes no sence.. specially if you have gha in the dt.. u hqve a scrubber during the day (display algae with massive water movement) and then a scrubber at night.. i feel like they tag team instead of compeeting.. wouldnt it be a better idea tu run them together.. at least till the dt algae dies off?

[redneckgearhead]

Hey guys revisiting the photohibition topic.. any one else tested it yet?.. i tried it on my screen and the algae turned a slimmy red.. weird.. i was running 4on 4off.

Something else i was thinking about is the idea of running the scrubber lights opposed to dt lights.. to me it makes no sence.. specially if you have gha in the dt.. u hqve a scrubber during the day (display algae with massive water movement) and then a scrubber at night.. i feel like they tag team instead of compeeting.. wouldnt it be a better idea tu run them together.. at least till the dt algae dies off?
I don't think it works that way. The idea of running them opposite is to help stabilize your PH. The scrubber should give the HA better flow and better lighting than your DT. Giving the HA a preferred place to grow. Since in theory the screen has better conditions for HA growth, it robs the HA in the DT of nutrients causing it to die off.

[Ansphire]

Sure but when you feed constantly.. every hour there are always nutrients.. and the display algae also has food. The ph with or without scrubber always remains the same in my tank.

[redneckgearhead]

Sure but when you feed constantly.. every hour there are always nutrients.. and the display algae also has food. The ph with or without scrubber always remains the same in my tank.

Ok, but the HA in the scrubber should have better conditions for growing HA, so that makes it more efficient at removing nutrients from the water. Therefore it should be out competing the HA in the DT.

[Ansphire]

If on at the same time yes.. but opposite they BOTH have good conditions... Lots of light and nutrients provided constantly.

[redneckgearhead]

Well, Ansphire if you want to run your scrubber lights on the same schedule as your DT then by all means go for it. Like i mentioned earlier most run it opposite because of the PH and if PH is not a problem for you then I see no problem with running it as you wish. All I can attest to is that I ran my lights opposite of my DT and my HA in my DT vanished!
Good luck.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Floyd, a delayed thanks for your efforts in this area. It's refreshing to see some hard numbers.

aguila, looking forward to seeing your results.

[Ansphire]

Well, Ansphire if you want to run your scrubber lights on the same schedule as your DT then by all means go for it. Like i mentioned earlier most run it opposite because of the PH and if PH is not a problem for you then I see no problem with running it as you wish. All I can attest to is that I ran my lights opposite of my DT and my HA in my DT vanished!
Good luck.

Oh no im not arguing with you.. im running it opposite!!... I wanted to discuss the reasoning behind it and get peoples results and opinions thats all.

[OkStudent]

One of the moderators could delete all my posts on this thread if they wanted to clean it up. I meant to put those pics on the "algae scrubber basics" thread. Sorry, won't do it again!

[Floyd R Turbo]

The timing of lights on/off in scrubber vs. DT should really be irrelevant w/r to how well the DT algae grows. Yes it may have more access to nutrients (waste) during scrubber lights off period on a continuous feed system, but since the preferred area of growth will be the scrubber, the long term effect should result in the scrubber out-competing the DT algae. What is still unresolved in my opinion however is the high-light system (LED included) which has the scrubber lights on for a shorter period of time, such that the DT and scrubber light cycle do no necessarily overlap, and this might allow the DT algae to grow a little more aggressively. Might.

Willie, thanks for the delayed comment. My delayed thanks was due to spending a week in Maui and I was strictly forbidden from going online to do anything except check e-mail. I did however manage to get a few nice pics of algae on rocks near the ocean, and also noted a total lack of foam fractionation. That may be because the water there is relatively free of pollutants, even with hundreds of humpback whales right offshore at any given time.

[el aguila]

As a quick update. Got 4 drivers last Friday and my LEDs on Monday. When I hooked everything up last night two of my drivers came defective, so I'm still trying to get it on line.

[widmer]

OK I have two things to say:

1.
I would be interested to hear from people who are using a format other than the standard "hang a sheet of mesh from a slotted pipe." I understand why this is the most popular approach and that it's easy to build and get results from, but I'm wondering if it's best for me in the long term.

I am most interested in configurations that:

1) Are cheap
2) Are more compact/self contained (this is my biggest complaint with the common vertical screen, by the time you've put lamps with good reflectors and splash guards on it, it's HUGE and awkward.)

I'm in the process of building the same format that I've been mentioning here and there for the past year :lol:, which is an ATS unit that is designed to be essentially similar to a table fountain; It will be sitting on the cabinet right next to the aquarium, with a sort of "waterfall" running down cement plates that I am molding to fit. I know the ceramic plates didn't work out so well for kcress, but due to PaulB's and my own experience with algae rooting well on cement substrate, I'm optimistic. I'll post pics at some point here.

2. (separate subject) I've got a pile of the $1.99 red 660 nm LEDs coming in the mail this week (hopefully tomorrow...) from the LED group buy site. The primary reason I bought them was for construction of a small terrestrial plant light, but I am also planning on making my ATS light out of 2x XP-G warm white + ~4x red 660s. I'll be sure to post pics of this also. IMO, the 60 degree optics on them should be great, though it would be better if they were <30 degrees...

And finally, I exhaustively looked over the spec sheet for the Osram golden dragon 660s, and found them to be really quite efficient in creating red light (at least through comparison to the Cree XP-series LEDs). I might try to acquire one of these to compare to the $1.99 660s, since no data is available on the group buy website... From looking at a few pages of this thread, I can't tell, does anyone have experience with these LEDs?

[widmer]

Also, just so I can be a little bit useful in this thread for now:

When I first saw 660 nm LEDs in action, I thought to myself "gosh, that's not very bright; it will be nice when someone comes out with one that's more efficient." And then I got to thinking, "Why aren't there more 660 nm LEDs floating around society already?" It was at this point that I remembered the whole basis of the lumen rating system - our eyes respond differently to different colors. And here's a picture:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk10/widfis/eyeresponsecurve.jpg

As you can see, the 660 nm color is right where our perception starts to really take a dive. I snipped this right out of the Osram 660 nm golden dragon datasheet, found here: http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/OSRAM-Opto-Semiconductors/LH-W5AM-1T3T-1-L-Z/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsK5VZR9vO1qGUagR5e4J3H

[salty joe]

OK I have two things to say:

1.



. IMO, the 60 degree optics on them should be great, though it would be better if they were <30 degrees...

B]

How far from the waterfall are you going to mount the LEDs?

[Floyd R Turbo]

You want no optics at all or else you will get spotting, especially with 3W LEDs, and with 60 deg optics you will need to be >5" away from the screen. 30 degree optics would be right out.

All the DIYer seem to be focused on 3W LEDs. Why is this, when 3 x 1W LEDs generate more lumens (since 1W LEDs are actually <1W, and 3W LEDs are way, way less than 3W) and can get tighter pattern, and put them closer to the screen. Are the 1W 660s just that much more expensive?

[widmer]

How far from the waterfall are you going to mount the LEDs?

Somewhere in the ballpark of ~12"

You want no optics at all or else you will get spotting, especially with 3W LEDs, and with 60 deg optics you will need to be >5" away from the screen. 30 degree optics would be right out.

All the DIYer seem to be focused on 3W LEDs. Why is this, when 3 x 1W LEDs generate more lumens (since 1W LEDs are actually <1W, and 3W LEDs are way, way less than 3W) and can get tighter pattern, and put them closer to the screen. Are the 1W 660s just that much more expensive?

From my own perspective, I enjoy the flexibility of the now-common "3w" leds, namely the Cree series, since so many options for optics are available. My prerogative is to keep the light fixture mounted far away from the tank, and in this case, far away from the ATS.

In general, I think when LEDs started becoming popular in DIY fixtures between 1-2 years ago, anything that wasn't a Cree HP LED got a bad rep, because time and time again it was demonstrated that basically none of the other miscellaneous were anywhere near as efficient in terms of quantity of light produced per watt consumed. So people have been more or less conditioned to look for these LEDs and many suppliers have primarily carried these.

FWIW, I can understand the attraction to the convenience of calling an LED "1w" or "3w" but it's such a misnomer... If we take the commonplace XP-G for example, it would be within spec to run push 5w through it (@ 1500 mA), but I would guess that most people run closer to 2.5w through it (@ 700 mA)

Meanwhile, the $1.99 660s I got at the group buy site don't really specify anything other than "2.3v @ 700 mA" which would be 1.6w so I'm not sure what we would want to call these...

[scolley]

You want 630nm and/or 660nm red. No whites of any kind, there's not enough red or blue component to them to do anything.Floyd - I'm too lazy to dig through your very long recent posts in this thread (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19902746#post19902746), but you're expressing the same sentiment here in this thread. Specifically that white LEDs won't work. That's just flat wrong.

Red may be better, but nine months ago I started running an all CW XR-E fixture with good success. Granted, the algae was not all the highly desirable thinks hair type. But the fact is, algae is algae. It all pulls nitrates and phosphates out of the water, and my all CW scrubbers pulled those numbers down to zero in my tank. I've posted plenty of detail about it - including pics of the thickly covered algae mat - in the Algae Scrubber Basics I linked to above.

That LED fixture bite the dust when I accidentally spilled water on it and toasted it. When I rebuilt I use all whites (whatever I had in the extra's bin; CW & NW XR-Es) except adding 2 Osram 660 reds. My observations are that this new fixture made little difference to growth, over the old all CW fixture.

As I noted in the other thread, I recently moved the LED fixture to a new stand and saw a dramatic different change in the nature of the algae. No more abundant than previously, but now at only 3.5" from the optic free LEDs the algae shifted to almost all hair algae. Here' a pic of 1/2 of the screen... comes up from the screen with a credit card in a single sheet. Previously I had to put it in a cup for for pics. It didn't hold together. I'm only showing 1/2 of the algae because rather than cleaning the whole screen every week, I clean 1/2 every week.

http://www.colley.org/images/IMG_2428_edited-1.jpg

But I digress. My point is... while LEDs can work just fine. Reds might be better, but to say whites don't work is incorrect.

[aquaenthusiast]

But I digress. My point is... while LEDs can work just fine. Reds might be better, but to say whites don't work is incorrect.

I guess the conclusion that we are trying to arrive at is that red has the longest wavelength and violet has the shortest wavelength. When all the waves are seen together, they make white light, which is what you see in white leds. White led's in fact probably have the reds and violets and other wavelengths in between it's just that they are NOT as efficient at growing algae as say a 660nm leds. Basically when you use white led's your wasting a lot of power/electricity to achieve the same thing.

[scolley]

...they are NOT as efficient at growing algae as say a 660nm leds.Thanks. That sounds fine. But it's still wrong to state that whites don't work. Instead it should be stated that they are not the most effecient.

That said, just out of curiosity, is there a body of evidence supporting this? Specifically people using a dramatically less power for 660 nm red than I am, yet getting comparable results? Would be interested in seeing that.

Thanks.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I'll add it to the 'experiment' list haha....yeah I'm never going to get that done :(

[gemini aquarius(t)]

I dont know how to search specifically in these ATS stickies, but what do you guys think about running Biopellets with an ATS?

[Floyd R Turbo]

Carbon dosing in general provides an energy source for bacteria to consume the waste products of feeding. To remove the excess waste, the standard procedure is to run a oversized skimmer. Running a BP reactor and a skimmer and a scrubber certainly would achieve the goal of a redundant filtration system, but the BP reactor (or any carbon dosing method for that matter) would tend to compete directly with the scrubber, so your growth will turn yellow (nutrient deficient) especially if your scrubber is too big. Now you could make your scrubber way too small compared to your feeding, say 1/2 or even 1/4 size, and the scrubber would just be 'mopping up' what the BP/bacteria couldn't. But then your scrubber cannot react as fast if you have a problem such as a dead trapped fish or a kid dumping a jar of food in the tank, and the carbon dosing surely will not react fast enough for this scenario, but a properly sized scrubber will.

[wayne44]

I turned off my skimmer last night I hope it was the right decision i'm still running GFO and my homemade scrubber thats been running a bout 5 weeks now I had a really bad algae outbreak but its looking better now was dosing vodka and I stopped that about the time I started the scrubber I just have a few algae strings still hanging around any advice very much appreciated thanx

[gemini aquarius(t)]

Carbon dosing in general provides an energy source for bacteria to consume the waste products of feeding. To remove the excess waste, the standard procedure is to run a oversized skimmer. Running a BP reactor and a skimmer and a scrubber certainly would achieve the goal of a redundant filtration system, but the BP reactor (or any carbon dosing method for that matter) would tend to compete directly with the scrubber, so your growth will turn yellow (nutrient deficient) especially if your scrubber is too big. Now you could make your scrubber way too small compared to your feeding, say 1/2 or even 1/4 size, and the scrubber would just be 'mopping up' what the BP/bacteria couldn't. But then your scrubber cannot react as fast if you have a problem such as a dead trapped fish or a kid dumping a jar of food in the tank, and the carbon dosing surely will not react fast enough for this scenario, but a properly sized scrubber will.
Perfect! Thanks Floyd! Exactly the answer I was looking for

[JohnnyB in SD]

I turned off my skimmer last night I hope it was the right decision i'm still running GFO and my homemade scrubber thats been running a bout 5 weeks now I had a really bad algae outbreak but its looking better now was dosing vodka and I stopped that about the time I started the scrubber I just have a few algae strings still hanging around any advice very much appreciated thanx

If you're concerned, try phasing the skimmer down as opposed to turning it off cold turkey. Put it on a timer, maybe run 12 on / 12 off, see how it goes.
Doing anything drastic or too fast in a reef tank seems to cause issues from my experience.

[srusso]

I turned off my skimmer last night I hope it was the right decision i'm still running GFO and my homemade scrubber thats been running a bout 5 weeks now I had a really bad algae outbreak but its looking better now was dosing vodka and I stopped that about the time I started the scrubber I just have a few algae strings still hanging around any advice very much appreciated thanx

Lets bring this question into the main basics thread, but IMHO we will all need some more information... pictures of your scrubber, description of your tank... etc before anyone can give you a thumbs up :thumbsup:

[sivert55]

My ATS growth is usually brown and slimy.
Too much light?

[srusso]

My ATS growth is usually brown and slimy.
Too much light?

We would need to see a picture to be sure, brown growth usually means a lack of lighting... In relation to food and real-estate.

[wayne44]

ok plugged skimmer back in guess i'll see about running it on a timer my scrubber is a quiet one 1200 pump with 1/2" pvc running off of it with a 4"x5" screen with 23watt CFL's one on each side 20# liverock in sump with scrubber running lights 9hrs on 15hrs off on scrubber running high capacity GFO in a reactor my skimmer is a SWC200 my tank is a 55 gal Oceanic my sump is a 50 gal rubbermaid lighting over my tank is T5's

[srusso]

ok plugged skimmer back in guess i'll see about running it on a timer my scrubber is a quiet one 1200 pump with 1/2" pvc running off of it with a 4"x5" screen with 23watt CFL's one on each side 20# liverock in sump with scrubber running lights 9hrs on 15hrs off on scrubber running high capacity GFO in a reactor my skimmer is a SWC200 my tank is a 55 gal Oceanic my sump is a 50 gal rubbermaid lighting over my tank is T5's

I am not saying you have to change what you have done, it was really just a disclaimer... How has the harvests been? Are you getting good growth? You have pictures of your growth?

[wayne44]

it grows its not thick growth dont have any pics but it is green algae i've had this aquarium up for about 12 years I guess and i've never had a problem with algae as bad as it has been here lately hopefully it will soon pass just hope I dont lose my corals in the process

[el aguila]

Well I finally got some Hong Kong drivers that work. I have been running a couple of weeks 100 1W LEDs on one side and 50 on the other side of a heat sink that measures 13 1/2" x 11 1/2". I have only cleaned the screen once since installation (ready to clean again today) and the 100 LED side had a nice thick layer of dark algae with the 50 LED side hardly having any.

I'm going to take the 50 side and increase the number by 50 - 75 as soon as I can find time which is in short supply this weekend.


2 fixtures before mounting

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff101/rasocelaguila/IMG_4222.jpg


50 fired up

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff101/rasocelaguila/IMG_4213.jpg


100 fired up

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff101/rasocelaguila/IMG_4234.jpg


installed in scubber - I probably need to do something with the color of the picture because you just see white rather than red when looking into the scubber.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff101/rasocelaguila/IMG_4350.jpg

[Floyd R Turbo]

best DIY LED array I've seen so far

[JohnnyB in SD]

Well I finally got some Hong Kong drivers that work. I have been running a couple of weeks 100 1W LEDs on one side and 50 on the other side of a heat sink that measures 13 1/2" x 11 1/2". I have only cleaned the screen once since installation (ready to clean again today) and the 100 LED side had a nice thick layer of dark algae with the 50 LED side hardly having any.

I have been thinking of going this route of 1w LEDs at about 1 per sq in, as opposed to 3watters spread out and distanced from the screen.
It'd be real nice if you could post a pic of your screen when you go to clean it?

[salty joe]

Nice work el aguila. How far from the screen (not the enclosure) are the LEDs?

[one clownfish]

I have an IC 660, (8) t5 water proof end caps and (4) 36" reflectors that I was going to sell but I think I'm going to give the ATS a shot. I have big problem with Phosphates, my tank is a stocked 220 FOWLR but I would like to keep some SPS in the near future.
My questions are:

1) Is surface area the only difference between a vertical scrubber and angular scrubber? I'm limited with space going up but I can rework the sump to give me an area of 32" x 18" on an angle, or

2) I can go with a double sidded 12" x 24" vertical scrubber. Same surface area, less bulbs no reflectors?

3) How many bulbs should I go with and how far from the scrubber should they be?

4) Do the T5 bulbs need to be replaced every 3 months like the cfls?

Thanks in advance,
Andy

[el aguila]

Thanks for the kind words everyone. The heat sinks are 1 3/4" from the screen at the closest setting that I can put them on my build. I do not know if pictures are really going to mean anything until I get the other side up and running (this weekend). It will probably be a couple of weeks before any pictures.

[jacob.morgan78]

This is a great thread!! IF you want information on LEDs! j/k... it's still a good thread but I would be interested in other information mentioned in the original post.

* How can we be scientific about ATS and provide empirical data to draw the correct conclusions?
* For what kind of tanks can an ATS be beneficial or dangerous?
* Light sources - can LED be more than experimental for ATS?
* Skimmers in cooperation with scrubbers - Advantages and disadvantages.
* Scrubbers and carbon dosing - Competition or cooperation?
* Approaches to achieve 3D-scrubbing in both open and closed designs
* Ozone and UV combined with an ATS - good or bad?
* Effects on livestock - Good and bad
* Long term usage of an ATS and how to collect data about it?
* How to avoid crashes - what are the safeguards?



This is just a few that I would love to see more information on.

ALSO, would it be okay to put the harvest from an ATS into my compost bin for my garden? Kinda random but curious about this.

Thanks!

[Floyd R Turbo]

* How can we be scientific about ATS and provide empirical data to draw the correct conclusions?

Test water before and after. Religiously document conditions prior to installing scrubber, including filtration methods, keep maintenance logs, take many pictures, monitor feeding, etc. Not many people do this. Usually they just test right before and then after.

* For what kind of tanks can an ATS be beneficial or dangerous?

Beneficial for all tanks, not dangerous really in any way I can think of, just not ideal for FW planted tanks - you need to find a balance point so that the scrubber doesn't out compete the plants. It has been done, but not by many

* Light sources - can LED be more than experimental for ATS?

LED is not really what I consider experimental anymore. It grows pretty much nothing but green hair under almost any condition from what I have seen, and it by far and above the best method. 660nm Red and 455nm Blue in a 6:1 ratio is currently what is suggested. Some use warm or neutral white, but I am of the opinion that 660/455 is all you need.

* Skimmers in cooperation with scrubbers - Advantages and disadvantages.

They don't do the same thing, so you can use them together. Most report lighter or less production of skimmate in conjuntion with a scrubber

* Scrubbers and carbon dosing - Competition or cooperation?

Carbon dosing is on the opposite spectrum from algae scrubbers. It will generally compete with the scrubber. This applies to any kind of carbon dosing - biopellets, vodka, vinegar, etc. Again, you can find a balance point, and some have done so.

* Approaches to achieve 3D-scrubbing in both open and closed designs

3D is generally only accomplished with a closed box design, however wrapping the entire screen in Saran Wrap will aid a open scrubber in attaining more 3D-like growth (and you can also move the lights closer without burning algae, some have reported)

* Ozone and UV combined with an ATS - good or bad?

No competition AFAIK on UV. Not sure on Ozone but I don't think it can hurt.

* Effects on livestock - Good and bad

some have reported specific corals not responding well, for me that is frogspawn and branching hammers. However this may be because my screen is oversized and not growing green algae well (rebuilding it so that it's sized for feeding, not tank volume)

* Long term usage of an ATS and how to collect data about it?

See the response to the first question

* How to avoid crashes - what are the safeguards?

Algae scrubbers don't cause tank crashes. You may find one or two people saying they did but then when you poke and prod them for answers, you either don't get any or find out something else that points to a larger problem. It has been widely theorized (though to my knowledge not proven) that buildup of heavy metals is the main culprit in tank crashes (long term), and algae does absorb heavy metals, however how much and how fast and how efficient algae is at keeping heavy metals at a reduced level over the long term has not been evaluated to my knowledge. This is mainly because there's no money in algae - no profit or advantage in testing many of these things. It will just take someone with curiosity and a lab and lots of disposable cash to go down this road I think.

ALSO, would it be okay to put the harvest from an ATS into my compost bin for my garden? Kinda random but curious about this.

Yes. You probably want to rinse out the saltwater first, but maybe not.

Thanks!

You're welcome!

[jacob.morgan78]

WOW! What a response... you rock!

We are all lucky to have such devoted people in this hobby!!

I really only was interested in the questions highlighted in red but appreciate all the other responses as well!

I like to run a filter sock to keep detritus from settling in my sump and to keep bubbles and hence salt creep down. Would this hurt anything other than keeping pods from circulating efficiently?

Is it okay to keep GFO and/or Carbon online or should I gradually take it off?

Thanks again!

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yes, filter socks will also trap waste particles, some argue this is bad actually. I read an article recently that said that even detritus should be recirculated back into the tank as it is metabolized by microbes and eventually broken down. I don't blown detritus off rocks or anything, and sump is high enough flow that it doesn't collect and I have no problems.

GFO will knock P down and limit it so that N will not get absorbed. Algae absorbs N and P at the Redfield Ratio, which is the same ratio as N and P naturally exist in food/life. Limit either and the other won't get reduced. For example the tank I run the scrubber on has N=0.00 almost always, and P is never below 0.05, because the LR and probably the sandbed to some extent denitrifies enough to limit N. So running a little GFO as just enough flow to reduce that extra out won't hurt, and you can probably just run it once a week for a few hours.

Carbon is just preference I guess. Use a high-quality carbon and rinse it well, standard fare for carbon. Use it if you want, I don't.

[jacob.morgan78]

nevermind

[emerald crab]

I use skimmer, biopellets, vodka and algae scrubber and I love the combination. I can really feed everybody in my tank and keep good water quality. It took me longer to get the scrubber working properly, but I was expecting that.

[srusso]

I use skimmer, biopellets, vodka and algae scrubber and I love the combination. I can really feed everybody in my tank and keep good water quality. It took me longer to get the scrubber working properly, but I was expecting that.

Algae consumes N's & P's which isn't exported by any other process in most aquariums other then doing a water change. Because of this most aquariums have a slow build up of the two until a WC is needed. Having an algae scrubber means your tank is actively consuming any N's and P's they become available, no build up, no issues with feeding more. This will lead to lower life forms getting more food, more breeding, stronger diversity.

So yes, you can generally feed more liberally...

[Floyd R Turbo]

The bio pellets and vodka both carbon dosing forms which directly compete with the scrubber, just so you know. Generally, if you do heavy carbon dosing, your scrubber will generally have less productive growth and be less effective. Basically you're stealing the nutrients away from it, so it will be limited and will act like it's oversized (assuming you sized it for feeding to start with) and will tend to grow more of the yellow-caramel colored gooey algae, which blocks light to the lower layers causing the roots to die. You can run both schemes, but you will need to find a balance.

[emerald crab]

The bio pellets and vodka both carbon dosing forms which directly compete with the scrubber, just so you know. Generally, if you do heavy carbon dosing, your scrubber will generally have less productive growth and be less effective. Basically you're stealing the nutrients away from it, so it will be limited and will act like it's oversized (assuming you sized it for feeding to start with) and will tend to grow more of the yellow-caramel colored gooey algae, which blocks light to the lower layers causing the roots to die. You can run both schemes, but you will need to find a balance.

I know and it did take much longer to get a nice crop of algae. I also had to play with vodka dosing (cut 2/3) and adding some chelated iron helped a lot.
I don't have any blue in my scrubber, all I use is 660 nm, but I'm happy with the results.

[BluScrnOdeth]

Ok, so i logged onto the official algae scrubber site to see this "new" scrubber idea. again, i mentioned that idea before and was told it cant be done because the light needed to grow the algae is reduced too much, i never persued testing this idea because of that which sounded like a logical reason and assumed that someone else attempted it and failed. I guess i should have tested it a year or so ago and we could have been that much further ahead by now...... glad to know that it works though.

[Floyd R Turbo]

BSOD, when did you mention that? I don't recall it but it's all a jumble at this point...Was it in this thread or the other one?

[Jstdv8]

Good thread, lots of great info here.
I've been running my scrubber for 2 years now.
Great results, easy to use. I won't run a tank without one.
I used to have a skimmer and GHA , Nitrates, phos up the wazoo, built the scrubber let it grow in and took the skimmer out and sold it.
No GHA, no phos, good PH. I couldn't be happier.
I'm going to have to go back and read up on the LED thing because when i built mine there was no good LED for growing the green algae on the screens.

[srusso]

Good thread, lots of great info here.
I've been running my scrubber for 2 years now.
Great results, easy to use. I won't run a tank without one.
I used to have a skimmer and GHA , Nitrates, phos up the wazoo, built the scrubber let it grow in and took the skimmer out and sold it.
No GHA, no phos, good PH. I couldn't be happier.
I'm going to have to go back and read up on the LED thing because when i built mine there was no good LED for growing the green algae on the screens.

LEDs are the way to go now. ~660nm and a little ~450nm. I am about to make the switch myself.

[yellowRubi]

I posted this in DIY section, but this might be the right place for it...

I started building my ATS yesterday, before even starting to mount the lights I tested it to see the flow, and its very uneven... My pump pushes 230 gal/h , its a QuietOne 1200, rated for 290 but its only 230, so on 6" of screen I should be gettin around 38gal/h per inch of flow
I cut the slot with a dremmel, i tried to make it as straight as i could, its not perfect,
did anyone had the same problem as Iam having now?
any help would be great!

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5PEpYdPUG_E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Floyd R Turbo]

What's the part of the pipe that goes back down to the sump with the gate valve on it?

[yellowRubi]

What's the part of the pipe that goes back down to the sump with the gate valve on it?

The gate valve is on the feed pipe from the little pump, its fully opened, i gad a extra one and i wanted to see if maybe i had to much flow...

[Floyd R Turbo]

I think your slot might be a little too wide possibly, looks like the pipe is not filling up and the water not "backing up" in the pipe, which would cause the water to flow more evenly. The water is moving fast through the pipe but also draining fast so you get that arcing effect. If there were more flow to the slot or the slot was narrower, the pipe would fill up and purge all the air out, letting the water drain out of the pipe evenly. Make sense?

[yellowRubi]

I think your slot might be a little too wide possibly, looks like the pipe is not filling up and the water not "backing up" in the pipe, which would cause the water to flow more evenly. The water is moving fast through the pipe but also draining fast so you get that arcing effect. If there were more flow to the slot or the slot was narrower, the pipe would fill up and purge all the air out, letting the water drain out of the pipe evenly. Make sense?

I made 3 diffrent pipes last night, the one in the movie has the biggest slot, i would say its 1/8 maybe a little over, I did it with dremmel, handheld so its not perfect
I also did same size of a slot but only 4" long to get more gallons per inch to see if that would be the case but it was still same

And the third pipe i did very small opening, just big enough to put the mesh inside, it was the worst as the water was sprayin all over...

I might pull out my table saw today, i have a brand new Diablo blade there, and if i remember good its 1/8 thick...
how deep the canvas needs to go into the pipe?
all the piping is made out off 1/2 pvc

Thank You for gettin back to me! :love1:

[Floyd R Turbo]

I would not use an acrylic blade, PVC is hard on acrylic blades. Just use a standard table saw blade.

Some of it could be the fact that the screen is not cured up, as the screen gets a slime coating, even on the smooth area where it is inserted into the slot, the flow will even out some.

For a pump fed system, I would insert the screen all the way into the slot so that it touches the top inside of the pipe, but you don't have to.

[yellowRubi]

I would not use an acrylic blade, PVC is hard on acrylic blades. Just use a standard table saw blade.

Some of it could be the fact that the screen is not cured up, as the screen gets a slime coating, even on the smooth area where it is inserted into the slot, the flow will even out some.

For a pump fed system, I would insert the screen all the way into the slot so that it touches the top inside of the pipe, but you don't have to.

i will use my regural blade then, will stop by at Home Depot to pick up some pvc after work, will let You know how the pipe with saw cut does

[Floyd R Turbo]

I'm used to doing it but it's still a hair-raising process. What I do is stand to the side of the table saw, fence in place, saw running, and hold the pipe down on the infeed side, then slowly lower it onto the blade, then lift off holding the outfeed side down. I cut the pipe longer than it needs and trim it to length later, that and I have extra length by which to grip the pipe and stay clear of the blade (I hold it with my finger in the pipe and thumb on top).

I have to do test cuts to see how long the slot gets cut without sliding the pipe, then I know how far to slide it to make it longer than just a single drop-lift. I can set my blade to cut a 5" slot then I mark the pipe and the fence to slide 1" and I've got a nice 6" slot.

One reason I stand to the side is if for some reason the pipe grabs or I lose grip, it's going to take off at high speed and I don't want to be near it when/if that happens. I also wear a glove on the infeed side as the blade throws hot PVC shavings at high speed out the pipe. But not on the outfeed side, if for some reason the glove catches the blade, your hand is going with it.

By the way, cutting PVC pipe to length on a table saw leaves the most perfectly smooth cuts. No need to de-burr. Just need to blow out the shavings.

Good luck and be careful. Don't forget eye protection. I use a whole-face shield LOL

[TheFishMan65]

Someone once told me (IIRC) that PVC tends to grab and electric tools should not be used or if so be prepared for grabbing and shattering. Once I took a PVC pipe and cut it down the length. I then placed it in boiling water and made it into a sheet. I then used an electric miter saw to cut that. I have never seen as mcuh problem cutting PVC.

[yellowRubi]

I just used the table saw, super easy, u need to go slow, still have all the fingers!! :)

as for the scrubber.... its a little better but not great, i made the screen 6" so with my pump each inch gets 38 gal/hr, the flow is almost thru all screen , a little bit is still not covered, but i will let it run , i set the lights, I have GFO and cheat now, I just want to see what will happen to the scrubber over couple weeks time...

I will post a movie of how the flow is now