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pmrossetti
06/04/2011, 03:06 PM
1. Mixes clear, clean and reasonably quickly.
2. Has the perameters we all want, approx. 1350m, 420-450c, 8-10alk.
3. Is consistent in those qualities.

Given 0 tds of ro what's the problem?

There's money in doing so, no?

It seems unreal there's so much trouble with salt mixes. sheeesh.

OK, I've said it.......

Matt Dean
06/04/2011, 03:47 PM
What salt mixes are you trying? I used D'D H2Ocean with absolutely no problems. I use Royal Nature and it, too is worry free.

pmrossetti
06/04/2011, 04:10 PM
funny, i had a feeling as soon as i posted this, all the "perfect" salts would turn up. :) human nature I guess.

used IO but it left sludge and had low per for reef.

DD mixes dirty and is having low mg issues. don't know RN

but glad they work for you.

lordofthereef
06/04/2011, 04:20 PM
From what I understand, the "sludge" is supposed to stay in the bucket and keep silicate traces out of the water. As such, it's doing what it's supposed to.

As a quick answer, I would assume the reason is we aren't pouring 100% pure lab grade materials into our tanks, because getting something completely and utterly pure is just terribly expensive to produce. I am not sure how many people would be willing to pay for ultra pure product, especially in the quantities we tend to use in the hobby.

Please note that I am only hypothesizing here.

pmrossetti
06/04/2011, 04:36 PM
From what I understand, the "sludge" is supposed to stay in the bucket and keep silicate traces out of the water. As such, it's doing what it's supposed to.

As a quick answer, I would assume the reason is we aren't pouring 100% pure lab grade materials into our tanks, because getting something completely and utterly pure is just terribly expensive to produce. I am not sure how many people would be willing to pay for ultra pure product, especially in the quantities we tend to use in the hobby.

Please note that I am only hypothesizing here.

good thoughts L, but is what i and others want too much? clarity, consistency and levels we all want? not super purity.

there are salts that disolve clear, but lack the other areas. we as reefers need and want all of the 3. are they that hard to obtain? seems not.

Palting
06/04/2011, 04:50 PM
funny, i had a feeling as soon as i posted this, all the "perfect" salts would turn up. :) human nature I guess.



LOL!!!

Ok, I wasn't going to say anything, and you'll know why shortly. I am in the middle of a water change, so I decided to post anyway. So, here goes:

My name is Palting, and I use Reef Crystals. I have been using Reef Crystals for over a year. :spin2:

http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab71/Kalawing/Misc/IMG_0896.jpg

See that trowel? I had just dumped 10 heaping trowelfulls in quick succession into a 20 gallon bin full of RODI. It is the same bin I have been using for over a year. Dissolves completely in minutes to clear saltwater. No residue, no sludge. Welll, maybe I exaggerate. There is maybe a hint of very light tan at the bottom corners, and some whitish film on the cover where I've allowed saltwater moisture to dry out, and that's after over a year. Parameters: 1.026SG, 1350mag, 440Ca, 11dKH (taken last week at 78 temp with Salifert test kits). Here are pics of my mixing bin, and clear saltwater maybe 5 minutes after I dumped all that salt in it:

http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab71/Kalawing/Misc/IMG_0891.jpg
http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab71/Kalawing/Misc/IMG_0890.jpg
http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab71/Kalawing/Misc/IMG_0892.jpg

pmrossetti
06/04/2011, 05:09 PM
Hi Palting,
thanks for another "perfect" salt. :) I have followed your tank and have great respect for your opinions. You're a great hobbyist.
Glad RC is great for you. Many including rtparty, who I also greatly respect, have major issues with it.
Maybe this thread will be interesting with all the "perfect" salts now appearing. thanks again

Palting
06/04/2011, 05:21 PM
:) Several very good reefers with great tanks have spoken against RC. That's why I couched my post the way I did. I don't know why I have no problems and they do. Maybe it's because I mix and aerate for only about 3 hours?

SushiGirl
06/04/2011, 05:23 PM
E.S.V. B-Ionic Seawater System Salt Mix (http://www.marinedepot.com/E.S.V._B_Ionic_Seawater_System_Salt_Mix_w_Measuring_Supplies_Salt_Mix_for_Aquarium_Water-E.S.V.-EV4111-FISM-vi.html)

We use this, mixes clear, no need for dosing.

pmrossetti
06/04/2011, 05:26 PM
:) Several very good reefers with great tanks have spoken against RC. That's why I couched my post the way I did. I don't know why I have no problems and they do. Maybe it's because I mix and aerate for only about 3 hours?


Who knows? the shadow?

I always look forward to your offered insights and actively look for them so thank you for enriching this site. and your tank looks great.

pmrossetti
06/04/2011, 05:30 PM
E.S.V. B-Ionic Seawater System Salt Mix (http://www.marinedepot.com/E.S.V._B_Ionic_Seawater_System_Salt_Mix_w_Measuring_Supplies_Salt_Mix_for_Aquarium_Water-E.S.V.-EV4111-FISM-vi.html)

We use this, mixes clear, no need for dosing.

Another "perfect" salt! But really, why should we have to do all the mixing and pay premium price too? uh uh

some issues with the mag level there too.

Faye
06/04/2011, 05:45 PM
Another "perfect" salt! But really, why should we have to do all the mixing and pay premium price too? uh uh

some issues with the mag level there too.

YOu mean mixing it into water?

pmrossetti
06/04/2011, 05:57 PM
YOu mean mixing it into water?

esv comes in 4 parts which you have to measure and mix yourself.

SushiGirl
06/04/2011, 06:05 PM
My boyfriend bought a small digital kitchen scale and it takes exactly as long as it took me to put scoops of salt in the water (about 5 minutes), and it comes out perfect every time. We don't have any issues with the mag level. We're not so time pressed that 5 minutes to measure & mix affects us negatively.

pmrossetti
06/04/2011, 06:19 PM
My boyfriend bought a small digital kitchen scale and it takes exactly as long as it took me to put scoops of salt in the water (about 5 minutes), and it comes out perfect every time. We don't have any issues with the mag level. We're not so time pressed that 5 minutes to measure & mix affects us negatively.

Hi S, great to hear from you. your ids on sealife are amazing.
esv is probably fine,I just don't see why all that is necessary in a premium salt. why can't we have it ready to use with the qualities I stated.
look forward to your posts.thanks

SushiGirl
06/04/2011, 06:29 PM
Thanks, pmrosetti. I guess we can't have it because maybe the salt-making process is lacking in some way?

Gary Majchrzak
06/04/2011, 06:38 PM
only those aquarists that can master using imperfect saltmixes can have successful reef aquariums.

I kinda like this angle :)

pmrossetti
06/04/2011, 06:46 PM
Thanks, pmrosetti. I guess we can't have it because maybe the salt-making process is lacking in some way?

maybe, but I think not. take Oceanic, intentionally ridiculously high in cal and too low in alk, sooooo lower ca, raise alk and you have a fast,clean dissolving salt with perfect perams, but nooooooooooooooo can't have that, too good, right?

folks have to mix it with IO with opposing perams.

allsps40
06/04/2011, 07:21 PM
I totally agree with the OP. I am using D-D H2Ocean now and it is low in mag 1100-1200 and is advertised at 1350-1380, it mixes with some brown dust in the bucket. A decent salt and sps like it but not quality for the cost. IO is just to low in ca and mag for my liking but I have used it in the past when needed. Reef Crystals was great loved it best bang for the buck until they changed the formula. I had 3 buckets that all mixed brown!, really high in alk 14 and ca 500+ that was no good. I dont want to alk burn all my sps and very brown. I have used Coralife salt and it is low in mag around 1000 ca and alk where good but not very consistent bucket to bucket. Oceanic is way high in ca and low in alk mag is decent, when mixed with IO it is a great salt combo, just a PITA to buy to salts and mix them. Now the only salts I have ever used that was consistent with good levels was HW Reefer and Tropic Marin Pro Reef. Hw Reefer is hard to get for many people, one of my LFS stocks all the time. I dont know why I stopped using this salt. Pro Reef started to become very expensive $100+ so I looked for a cheaper salt (RC) then it became impossible to get locally. I wont use a salt I cant get locally in a pinch if needed. I guess maybe I am just being picky but my my sps are picky as well and like stability, the more consistent a salt mix can be the better.

pmrossetti
06/04/2011, 07:32 PM
I totally agree with the OP. I am using D-D H2Ocean now and it is low in mag 1100-1200 and is advertised at 1350-1380, it mixes with some brown dust in the bucket. A decent salt and sps like it but not quality for the cost. IO is just to low in ca and mag for my liking but I have used it in the past when needed. Reef Crystals was great loved it best bang for the buck until they changed the formula. I had 3 buckets that all mixed brown!, really high in alk 14 and ca 500+ that was no good. I dont want to alk burn all my sps and very brown. I have used Coralife salt and it is low in mag around 1000 ca and alk where good but not very consistent bucket to bucket. Oceanic is way high in ca and low in alk mag is decent, when mixed with IO it is a great salt combo, just a PITA to buy to salts and mix them. Now the only salts I have ever used that was consistent with good levels was HW Reefer and Tropic Marin Pro Reef. Hw Reefer is hard to get for many people, one of my LFS stocks all the time. I dont know why I stopped using this salt. Pro Reef started to become very expensive $100+ so I looked for a cheaper salt (RC) then it became impossible to get locally. I wont use a
salt I cant get locally in a pinch if needed. I guess maybe I am just being picky but my my sps are picky as well and like stability, the more consistent a salt mix can be the better.

thanks a, it's downright ridiculous that we can't have perfect salts these days, amazing to me. they keep charging more and more and the problems persist. and now we need to mix our own formula?esv----dumbfounding

Barfly
06/04/2011, 08:50 PM
esv comes in 4 parts which you have to measure and mix yourself.

I'm not sure what you are really looking for in your perfect salt. Like SushiGirl, I bought a kitchen scale and measure each part by the gram. I have slightly adjusted the suggested levels to give me the parameters I want. It took me less than 2 minutes to measure the 4 parts (about the same amount of time I used to roll the bucket around the house to mix the contents). It mixes quickly and extremely clean. Absolutely no residue. I get a 200 gallon mix kit for $78, which is less than a lot of the other premium brands.

Who is to say that your parameters and what you consider a perfect salt are going to be the same parameters that others will desire. With the esv mix, you can have whatever parameters you want. The salinity, ca, alk, and mag are all adjustable. Once you figure each amount that you need to add, it is very simple and non time consuming.

pmrossetti
06/04/2011, 08:56 PM
I'm not sure what you are really looking for in your perfect salt. Like SushiGirl, I bought a kitchen scale and measure each part by the gram. I have slightly adjusted the suggested levels to give me the parameters I want. It took me less than 2 minutes to measure the 4 parts (about the same amount of time I used to roll the bucket around the house to mix the contents). It mixes quickly and extremely clean. Absolutely no residue. I get a 200 gallon mix kit for $78, which is less than a lot of the other premium brands.

Who is to say that your parameters and what you consider a perfect salt are going to be the same parameters that others will desire. With the esv mix, you can have whatever parameters you want. The salinity, ca, alk, and mag are all adjustable. Once you figure each amount that you need to add, it is very simple and non time consuming.

thanks John, just don't agree. want it ready to use in proper perams. see the reef chemistry forum for recent issues with esv. the no coralline thread I think. glad you like the salt. great avatar.

JPMagyar
06/04/2011, 09:02 PM
I have used nearly every salt mix known on the planet and tested them all in the process. My tank never crashed because I used a different mix than the last time and no mix ever caused me to lose any corals. Yes, levels of trace elements varied across different mixes and yes some mixes took longer than others to clear up, but in general they all "did the job" fine. In our hobby everyone is looking for the perfect lighting, dosing, salt, food or fish that will make their reef perfect, but the truth is we as the reefer are the single most important factor by far. I will use any salt anyone asks me to use and I will bet my reef that I can keep it looking as good as ever . . . just saying :celeb1:



Joe in NY



http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad115/JoePeck66/TOTM/FTS5-3.jpg

pmrossetti
06/04/2011, 09:06 PM
Beautiful tank Joe. You're totally right, but why can't we have a salt that has all 3 simple,simple qualities. I think is still a valid question.

pmrossetti
06/04/2011, 09:17 PM
It's funny. All I see on these forums is all the salt problems with each and every make. When it's made a point of all of a sudden all salts are great or it doesn't matter. Well reef salt is a trivial matter,but since this is a reef site it's important here. And salt mixes,by and large, could be much, much better. Maybe we should demand that. After all, look at the progress of other reef products. Salt mixes need to get with it folks.It's not genetics, it's SALT.

Barfly
06/04/2011, 09:17 PM
thanks John, just don't agree. want it ready to use in proper perams. see the reef chemistry forum for recent issues with esv. the no coralline thread I think. glad you like the salt. great avatar.

Are you so sure that the no coralline is due to the esv? Coralline is growing like crazy in my tank. Also the esv not only mixes clean and clear to your precise parameters, it is ready to use immediately. It is by far the best salt I have used in over 25 years. Only the test of time will tell, but I am extremely happy. I switched from D&D which I was highly disappointed in.

Barfly
06/04/2011, 09:23 PM
Beautiful tank Joe. You're totally right, but why can't we have a salt that has all 3 simple,simple qualities. I think is still a valid question.

ESV

1. Mixes clear, clean and reasonably quickly. CHECK Takes no more time to measure and dump in water than any other salt mix

2. Has the perameters we all want, approx. 1350m, 420-450c, 8-10alk. CHECK You can even adjust the levels to suit your specific needs

3. Is consistent in those qualities. CHECK

pmrossetti
06/04/2011, 09:26 PM
Are you so sure that the no coralline is due to the esv? Coralline is growing like crazy in my tank. Also the esv not only mixes clean and clear to your precise parameters, it is ready to use immediately. It is by far the best salt I have used in over 25 years. Only the test of time will tell, but I am extremely happy. I switched from D&D which I was highly disappointed in.

OK, not challenging you. I just meant folks are having issues with it according to the thread. Just saying it's the best in 25yrs says a lot. It's one of how many other salts. At this point in time I think we should have better than what we have.
Why so disappointed in DD? This is a "premium salt" right. And it mixes like mud. Not acceptable.
Maybe ESV is the best we have, but there should be many excellent choices.

dublo8
06/04/2011, 11:25 PM
I wen't from IO to RC and a short stint with DD. I finally went and bought a bucket of RSCP (red sea coral pro) and I have not one complaint. It mixes clear, fast and my tank has better overall growth within the short amount of time I have been using it. I had to dose too much with IO, RC left a brown film in my bucket always near the end of the bag no matter how much I shook, dropped, mixed the bag it never failed. DD was low in mag just like other's have stated as well. I always test my parms at the first opening of the salt and at the end. I can't comment too much on RSCP yet but so far it's been nothing but good to me.

Now I have never had a "bad" salt issue with any of them just undesired after affects or having to make up for what the salt is lacking. Either way, everybody's tank and tank needs is different, so it's really your choice. Nothing wrong with trying out a bag of one and switching to another down the road if your not happy.

pmrossetti
06/04/2011, 11:31 PM
right, but when a salt states that it has certain perameters it should have them consistantly, and should mix cleanly, clearly and quickly. not too much to ask.

Giglamesh
06/05/2011, 12:57 AM
here is an idea, if its just has to many issues for you to be satisfied use Natural salt water

RRaider
06/05/2011, 01:25 AM
Can you name any product that is perfect?

pmrossetti
06/05/2011, 01:32 AM
Can you name any product that is perfect?

Not perfect, but does what it says.

You guys are something else. Go ahead and vouch for inferior products.I think we deserve better.

I'm glad your happy with your salts.

tqpolo
06/05/2011, 01:32 AM
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad115/JoePeck66/TOTM/FTS5-3.jpg

You have to tell me how to take pics like that. What lens, camera, settings are you using? Did you do any photoshop? If yes, please tell me how to do it?

I don't have a macro lens but I use a Canon T2i with Sigma 17-50mm f2.8.

pmrossetti
06/05/2011, 01:35 AM
here is an idea, if its just has to many issues for you to be satisfied use Natural salt water

Don't want NSW, I want a good salt,that's all. With my 3 parameters.
I'm glad you like the salts we have.

Enyo
06/05/2011, 02:06 AM
I swear by the new Red Sea Coral Pro salt (black bucket). Mixes clear and dissolves fast, and the three buckets I have used were consistent which cant be said about IO.

pmrossetti
06/05/2011, 02:13 AM
I swear by the new Red Sea Coral Pro salt (black bucket). Mixes clear and dissolves fast, and the three buckets I have used were consistent which cant be said about IO.

Been hearing good things about it. Hope it's a good one.

Randy Holmes-Farley
06/05/2011, 06:50 AM
1. Mixes clear, clean and reasonably quickly.
2. Has the perameters we all want, approx. 1350m, 420-450c, 8-10alk.
3. Is consistent in those qualities.

FWIW, That's a very short list of requirements. I'm concerned about more than that, and in fact, am not nearly as concerned about those as I am about all the things we cannot measure and cannot adjust. It is easy enough to dose the tank to correct those you mention. :)

It is also clear to me that a lot of the "variability" of salts relates to testing error, not actual variability. Two kits on the same water giving different results proves this can be an issue. Some of it also probably relates to settling within a bucket, so making up a big batch helps in that regard.

In the end, cost is the big factor in making salts to demanding specifications.

kybreos
06/05/2011, 07:11 AM
Well, I mix 30 gallons at a time and I wish there was an easier way, let's say for instance a super concentrated liquid where for every 10 gallons of ro water you add 5oz of said liquid and BAM you got instant seawater. Pipe dreams, I know but a man can wish right?.

geaux xman
06/05/2011, 07:14 AM
1. Mixes clear, clean and reasonably quickly.
2. Has the perameters we all want, approx. 1350m, 420-450c, 8-10alk.
3. Is consistent in those qualities.



It is also clear to me that a lot of the "variability" of salts relates to testing error, not actual variability. Two kits on the same water giving different results proves this can be an issue. Some of it also probably relates to settling within a bucket, so making up a big batch helps in that regard.


Randy hit the nail in the head with that one. I work in the hospital lab and at times, i'm in charge of the chemistry dept. Two of the same $100K analyzer side by side. One could give you a 480 value on a standard solution and the other instrument could give 500 value. Repeat the same solution the following day, the instrument that gave 480, could read 500.

This is with a $100K piece of equipment that is heavily calibrated and QC'd, much less a $20 home testing kit.

Lynnmw1208
06/05/2011, 08:46 AM
did you ever try red sea coral pro? It costs the same as reef crystals and I really like it. here's a video on how they make it :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wiZ5BBZIoo

SushiGirl
06/05/2011, 09:40 AM
Are you so sure that the no coralline is due to the esv? Coralline is growing like crazy in my tank. Also the esv not only mixes clean and clear to your precise parameters, it is ready to use immediately. It is by far the best salt I have used in over 25 years. Only the test of time will tell, but I am extremely happy. I switched from D&D which I was highly disappointed in.

Our coralline went nuts when we switched to ESV.

lordofthereef
06/05/2011, 10:00 AM
good thoughts L, but is what i and others want too much? clarity, consistency and levels we all want? not super purity.

there are salts that disolve clear, but lack the other areas. we as reefers need and want all of the 3. are they that hard to obtain? seems not.

If my thought are correct (and again, I admit they may not be), the more you add in (salt, calcium, magnesium, etc) the more impurities you potentially introduce. It is BECAUSE the mixes are not impeccably pure that we see this residue and cloudiness.

rtparty
06/05/2011, 10:15 AM
Salts actually tend to be pretty consistent. You need to figure that out before moving on.

What isn't consistent is our test kits and US, the reefers. Get your water and test it three times each with three different test kits. Your numbers will be all over the place. You will probably see a 2dkh swing in alk, a 100ppm swing in calcium and a 200ppm swing in magnesium.

Stop demanding the "perfect" salt and start demanding better testing procedures and better kits. If you think making the perfect salt is so easy, start a company and make it! You will put the rest out of business if yours is that "good".

Just saying

pmrossetti
06/05/2011, 10:39 AM
Salts actually tend to be pretty consistent. You need to figure that out before moving on.

What isn't consistent is our test kits and US, the reefers. Get your water and test it three times each with three different test kits. Your numbers will be all over the place. You will probably see a 2dkh swing in alk, a 100ppm swing in calcium and a 200ppm swing in magnesium.

Stop demanding the "perfect" salt and start demanding better testing procedures and better kits. If you think making the perfect salt is so easy, start a company and make it! You will put the rest out of business if yours is that "good".

Just saying

Maybe it isn't so easy. Just seems like it would be.

rtparty
06/05/2011, 10:52 AM
Maybe it isn't so easy. Just seems like it would be.

You would probably like aquavitro salinity. Guranteed results on each bucket. I gurantee they aren't testing with our cheap kits either.

pmrossetti
06/05/2011, 11:01 AM
You would probably like aquavitro salinity. Guranteed results on each bucket. I gurantee they aren't testing with our cheap kits either.

the esv looks really interesting. waiting to see how yours turns out.

allsps40
06/05/2011, 11:41 AM
The salts I am hearing good things about AquaVitro Salinity, EVS, Brightwell, Red Sea black bucket and H2Ocean but as I said I test low mag in it as did 2 other LFS with my water and different test kits. I really am almost to the point where I just settle for a salt and correct what is needed.

pmrossetti
06/05/2011, 11:50 AM
The salts I am hearing good things about AquaVitro Salinity, EVS, Brightwell, Red Sea black bucket and H2Ocean but as I said I test low mag in it as did 2 other LFS with my water and different test kits. I really am almost to the point where I just settle for a salt and correct what is needed.


did you see the Kent sea salt thread? good params

rtparty
06/05/2011, 06:30 PM
To me the ESV salt makes the most sense out of all salts. ESV is a USA based company with pretty strict quality control from what I know.

Bob was completely confused with my initial results. He can't figure out how my alk was really high but yet calcium was high as well. I had an unexpected trip this weekend and didn't get around to testing my solutions but can tonight.

I talked to Bob about the low Mg results from some people and he basically said "it is possible but he highly doubts it." They test EVERY lot and batch they send out. He then saves every tested batch for at least a year. He is going to pull out my batch numbers and retest them multiple times to see what he gets. I will report on that when I get his email.

A dry powder based salt has a lot of things that can go wrong IMO. Each new ingredient brings in impurities and they can all settle. Even rolling the bucket around may not mix everything completely. I have also noticed over the years that if any moisture gets to the salt, params can shift. With the ESV salt, the only dry parts are the NaCl and the Mg. Both are double bagged in my box and have very minimal amounts of clumping. I just break them up when measuring and am good to go.

I also shake my bottles up to make sure nothing has settled in those. I don't think anything can settle in them though?

ESV salt system is like me making myself a gourmet meal. I control the ingredients and amounts to my liking. Using the dry powder based salts is like going to Olive Garden and hoping they get it right. I don't know about you but I don't want to buy extra spices (cal,alk,mg) to "fix" my food.

This is all opinion and nothing more. Please take it as such. My opinion on ESV could change in 2-3 days if they can't fix my issues but for now I will stick up for them and their system. The first couple times I mixed the salt, it took me a little bit. The last two batches were done super fast once the learning curve was over.

pmrossetti
06/05/2011, 06:38 PM
To me the ESV salt makes the most sense out of all salts. ESV is a USA based company with pretty strict quality control from what I know.

Bob was completely confused with my initial results. He can't figure out how my alk was really high but yet calcium was high as well. I had an unexpected trip this weekend and didn't get around to testing my solutions but can tonight.

I talked to Bob about the low Mg results from some people and he basically said "it is possible but he highly doubts it." They test EVERY lot and batch they send out. He then saves every tested batch for at least a year. He is going to pull out my batch numbers and retest them multiple times to see what he gets. I will report on that when I get his email.

A dry powder based salt has a lot of things that can go wrong IMO. Each new ingredient brings in impurities and they can all settle. Even rolling the bucket around may not mix everything completely. I have also noticed over the years that if any moisture gets to the salt, params can shift. With the ESV salt, the only dry parts are the NaCl and the Mg. Both are double bagged in my box and have very minimal amounts of clumping. I just break them up when measuring and am good to go.

I also shake my bottles up to make sure nothing has settled in those. I don't think anything can settle in them though?

ESV salt system is like me making myself a gourmet meal. I control the ingredients and amounts to my liking. Using the dry powder based salts is like going to Olive Garden and hoping they get it right. I don't know about you but I don't want to buy extra spices (cal,alk,mg) to "fix" my food.

This is all opinion and nothing more. Please take it as such. My opinion on ESV could change in 2-3 days if they can't fix my issues but for now I will stick up for them and their system. The first couple times I mixed the salt, it took me a little bit. The last two batches were done super fast once the learning curve was over.

Been waiting for you to check in on this. all you say makes sense. if we can't trust esv, who then? i just hope this turns out ok. most give it great reviews.

S13<3
06/05/2011, 06:49 PM
i use water from the ocean, i make sure to get it fresh the same day the truck delivers, supposedly collected several miles offshore
mag=1250-1380
cal=420-480
alk=6-7 :(

guess theres no such thing as perfect water

drywall_guy87
06/05/2011, 07:13 PM
pmrossetti love the post im to new to the game to put my 2cents in but i agree with your point my LFS has bio-actif reef salt the guy at the store said it was the best they had but he is a salesman so if you get a min check it out see what you think

rtparty
06/05/2011, 07:50 PM
i use water from the ocean, i make sure to get it fresh the same day the truck delivers, supposedly collected several miles offshore
mag=1250-1380
cal=420-480
alk=6-7 :(

guess theres no such thing as perfect water

NSW has a reading of 7dkh. Your readings are right on actually.

It was hobbyists that decided that alk needed to be 9, 10, 15! Ok, 15 is a little high and exaggerated but your numbers looks really good.

C0rp
06/05/2011, 10:52 PM
I use aquavitro salinity because it has the laboratory tested results of your bucket printed on the label, vs what the NSW levels are. You know exactly what you are getting, and I don't see any other company that makes salt doing this kind of testing on each bucket. My tank is still young, but my corals are thriving and my tank runs a solid 8.2-8.4 pH daily. Proof enough for me.

disc1
06/05/2011, 11:05 PM
^^+1. I'm using salinity too. Everything running good in my tank. It usually takes a couple hours to clear up. I think that is just the nature of adding salt to water.

aquainas
06/06/2011, 12:31 AM
Aquavitro user here as well:)
I switched from Reef Crystals due to the "unknown" vitamins added to Red Sea Coral Pro which I liked, mixed up quickly somewhat consistent with high levels of CA ALK and MG however I was only getting 120g of water at 35ppt per bucket. So I tried Salinity, here's what I got:

Batch lab numbers were: PH 8.4, Alk 3.4meq/l, Ca 435ppm Mg 1326ppm Sr 8.7ppm
My test results at 78F :PH 8.2, Alk 3.2meq/l, Ca 440ppm Mg 1280ppm Sr N.A
Second test at 79F :PH 8.2, Alk 3.2meq/l, Ca 435ppm Mg 1440ppm Sr N.A

I mixed and aerated exactly 12cups of salt to 27.5g of water to yield 35ppt/1.0264sg

Took about 12hrs to mix clear adding cups slowly at a time, small amount of residue left on the sides of my drum but nothing like what I got when using RC or RSCP. So I will say so far I like it, I couldn't expect it to mix much faster being as concentrated as it is, and being that I've mixed 150g already with slightly less than half bucket left I am thrilled!

pmrossetti
06/06/2011, 01:00 PM
Aquavitro user here as well:)
I switched from Reef Crystals due to the "unknown" vitamins added to Red Sea Coral Pro which I liked, mixed up quickly somewhat consistent with high levels of CA ALK and MG however I was only getting 120g of water at 35ppt per bucket. So I tried Salinity, here's what I got:

Batch lab numbers were: PH 8.4, Alk 3.4meq/l, Ca 435ppm Mg 1326ppm Sr 8.7ppm
My test results at 78F :PH 8.2, Alk 3.2meq/l, Ca 440ppm Mg 1280ppm Sr N.A
Second test at 79F :PH 8.2, Alk 3.2meq/l, Ca 435ppm Mg 1440ppm Sr N.A

I mixed and aerated exactly 12cups of salt to 27.5g of water to yield 35ppt/1.0264sg

Took about 12hrs to mix clear adding cups slowly at a time, small amount of residue left on the sides of my drum but nothing like what I got when using RC or RSCP. So I will say so far I like it, I couldn't expect it to mix much faster being as concentrated as it is, and being that I've mixed 150g already with slightly less than half bucket left I am thrilled!


think it's better than the Seachem Reef Salt or Marine Salt?

aquainas
06/06/2011, 01:07 PM
Not sure how I could quantify it as better since I've not used either of those, but I do know that Aquavitro is supposed to be Seachem's flagship line.

Randy Holmes-Farley
06/06/2011, 05:00 PM
FWIW, a number of folks do not like "Salinity" and do not find it matches the batch claim. Whether that is testing error or batch error, I do not know.

pmrossetti
06/06/2011, 05:21 PM
FWIW, a number of folks do not like "Salinity" and do not find it matches the batch claim. Whether that is testing error or batch error, I do not know.

another one bites the dust.

ja4207
06/06/2011, 05:26 PM
Obviously you haven't tried RedSea Coral Pro! I swear by it!

aquainas
06/06/2011, 05:27 PM
FWIW, a number of folks do not like "Salinity" and do not find it matches the batch claim. Whether that is testing error or batch error, I do not know.

Randy any other specifics? What conclusion have you drawn personally from the feedback you've encountered?

pendraig
06/06/2011, 05:29 PM
think it's better than the Seachem Reef Salt or Marine Salt?

It should be since AquaVitro Salinity is SeaChem's premium line. I recently switched from Reef Salt to Salinity and noticed that my water retains a higher pH. Also, I don't have to dose Alk/Cal as much as I did with Reef Salt. Though I have to mix Salinity much slower than Reef Salt to avoid excess precipitate.

Randy Holmes-Farley
06/06/2011, 05:40 PM
and noticed that my water retains a higher pH.

That can't really be related to the salt unless you maintain a higher alkalinity using it. Seachem may still add excess borate (their numbers seem to conflict on this), but it is less in this mix than their previous versions. :)

Randy any other specifics? What conclusion have you drawn personally from the feedback you've encountered?

Nothing specific, but here's a typical thread with some pro and con posts. The issues seem to sometimes include clouding of the water for some reason.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2001173

disc1
06/06/2011, 05:53 PM
pmrosetti - I think you are asking too much here. Each salt has it's advantages and drawbacks. You can make one that mixes perfectly clear, but it probably won't have the alk that you want since dissolving a lot of alk at once will leave you cloudy. And vice-versa. Same with mag, it gets cloudy as mag hydroxide due to the locally high pH when you first dump in the salt and then re-dissolves.

It's kind of like asking why can't there be a car that gets 500HP, AND 50mpg, AND has seating with ample legroom for six. For any one thing you focus on you are going to have t o sacrifice in another area. And there are so many different ways of doing things in this hobby that there is no such thing as the "BEST" salt. It all depends on what you want and what you keep.

The answer to why it is so hard is chemistry. I implore you to try to create a better salt. If you can create something that lives up to your expectations, you are going to make a million off of it.

aquainas
06/06/2011, 06:08 PM
and noticed that my water retains a higher pH.

That can't really be related to the salt unless you maintain a higher alkalinity using it. Seachem may still add excess borate (their numbers seem to conflict on this), but it is less in this mix than their previous versions. :)

Randy any other specifics? What conclusion have you drawn personally from the feedback you've encountered?

Nothing specific, but here's a typical thread with some pro and con posts. The issues seem to sometimes include clouding of the water for some reason.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2001173

Thanks Randy!

pmrossetti
06/06/2011, 06:11 PM
pmrosetti - I think you are asking too much here. Each salt has it's advantages and drawbacks. You can make one that mixes perfectly clear, but it probably won't have the alk that you want since dissolving a lot of alk at once will leave you cloudy. And vice-versa. Same with mag, it gets cloudy as mag hydroxide due to the locally high pH when you first dump in the salt and then re-dissolves.

It's kind of like asking why can't there be a car that gets 500HP, AND 50mpg, AND has seating with ample legroom for six. For any one thing you focus on you are going to have t o sacrifice in another area. And there are so many different ways of doing things in this hobby that there is no such thing as the "BEST" salt. It all depends on what you want and what you keep.

The answer to why it is so hard is chemistry. I implore you to try to create a better salt. If you can create something that lives up to your expectations, you are going to make a million off of it.

thank you for your detailed post. I don't think I expect too much. the car stuff is ridiculous though. There's no reason I can see why a salt can't be made with my simple 3 criteria. And yet there are precious few if any. Why I draw contention for discussing it who knows. Just that the companies lack the will to do so I guess. No big deal, we'll all find salt we can deal with.Just think the lack of truly good product in this area is lacking and causes folks problems. I have to make the better salt? comeon now, please. thanks again.

lordofthereef
06/06/2011, 06:17 PM
Listen. There would clearly be a market for this "miracle" salt. Plenty of people have chimed in and stated that it's not a lack of will, there are simply limitations. I am not a chemist, but what seems like a simple 3 points of criteria to you may be a chemical impossibility. In that sense, I don't find the analogy regarding cars all that bad.

C0rp
06/06/2011, 08:35 PM
If u mix saliinity cold, then raise it to temp it seems to be much less cloudy, at least IME. I've used it clear, and cloudy in the DT with no difference inhabitant wise. Tanks clears within an hour or so and nothing in my tank seems to care its slightly cloudy.

And if a bucket of salinity has a tag that says 8.5 pH lab tested....and Joe Shmoe measures at home 8.2, who do you think is more accurate? Just sayin...

disc1
06/06/2011, 08:41 PM
thank you for your detailed post. I don't think I expect too much. the car stuff is ridiculous though. There's no reason I can see why a salt can't be made with my simple 3 criteria. And yet there are precious few if any. Why I draw contention for discussing it who knows. Just that the companies lack the will to do so I guess. No big deal, we'll all find salt we can deal with.Just think the lack of truly good product in this area is lacking and causes folks problems. I have to make the better salt? comeon now, please. thanks again.

You can see how ridiculous the car thing is, but can't see that what you are asking for from a salt is not realistic? Let me explain it one more way. It would be possible to use additives to make the salt mix up clear. But those things might not be good for our tank. We can jack with the levels to get it clear, but that throws off the levels. You could go the route of finding lab grade pure compunds and mixing them up to your own specific ratio. That would be prohibitively expensive (think tens of dollars per gallon) and would still cloud up as it mixed. That's the nature of mixing good salt.

The levels thing I agree I would like more consistency from my salt. But homogenous mixing of powdered substances is not a trivial matter. That and the individual batch testing required to maintain QC would result in a very high dollar salt. And it would still cloud up when you mix it. That's the nature of mixing good salt. There's a lot of chemistry going on in that bucket while the ions sort themselves out.

Seawater is supersaturated in several different ions and salt mix is even worse because it is usually higher in alk and cal that NSW. So it's no surprise that mixes up cloudy and really is no surprise that it leaves a precipitated residue.

So what I am saying is that chemically, the only way to get the levels any more consistent would be to make it far more expensive. The levels could be spot on, but that won't mix clean. And you can make it mix clean, but not without messing with the levels. But you can't get all three because salt in the proper ratio for ASW mixes up cloudy. It's the chemical nature of the salt and nothing to do with who made it.

All that is unless you can change the laws of chemistry and physics to suit the creation of an instant dissolving sea water mix. In which case, as stated earlier, you will become a millionaire.