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75pxatr
06/07/2011, 07:11 AM
I found this diagram on an old reef central post showing a simple back up plan for a pump using a 12v marine battery and trickle charger. I thought a power inverter was required to do this.

Please share your back up system ideas and diagrams.

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/75pxatr/VortechBB.jpg

Chris27
06/07/2011, 08:03 AM
In the above diagram, the Charger is the power inverter so to speak. That circuit would likely work just fine, perhaps a bit large to fit neatly under a stand, but it should work.

disc1
06/07/2011, 09:31 AM
How is a charger an inverter. The charger puts out DC, by definition an inverter puts out AC.

kduen
06/07/2011, 10:23 AM
Being that It's a battery back up (DC) there is no need for an inverter anywhere in the circuit. Once commercial power drops out (AC) then the vortech battery backup (DC) takes over until power is restored. The only reason you would need a inverter for the above diagram is if you were going to use the battery as the main power for the vortech using the standard AC wall plug. If you tried to hook up a inverter to the 1.3mm input that is strictly DC you would probably fry the driver and void the warranty.

yerboy
06/07/2011, 10:23 AM
the vortech is a DC pump so the battery output of 12v works, if you where trying to use this type of setup for an AC motor pump then you would need an inverter. I think what Chris27 was implying was the charger is a converter AC-DC.

Chris27
06/07/2011, 10:26 AM
How is a charger an inverter. The charger puts out DC, by definition an inverter puts out AC.

By definition, inverter is also "one that inverts"

The schematic was correct, and rather then tell the OP they were wrong and steer the thread off course, the words "inverter so to speak" were used.

kduen
06/07/2011, 10:34 AM
Inverter converts DC to AC. Rectifier converts AC to DC. The inverse of AC is still AC just that it will be 180 degrees out of sync.

ludnix
06/07/2011, 11:28 AM
The vortech's official battery backup sets the vortech in a special power saving mode doesn't it? I wonder what tells the controller to do that.

dogstar74
06/07/2011, 11:33 AM
c'mon, this is all theory. Can we see some DIY's people have done themselves? I know if it was this easy, then people would have a ton of them on this forum.

Let's see them set ups!
Aaron

kduen
06/07/2011, 11:50 AM
Would you want to ruin a $450 dollar pump and void the warranty in the process if things don't work out?

Chris27
06/07/2011, 12:03 PM
Now that we have all had electrical 101, we can get back to the question at hand...

The diy battery backup is as simple as it seems. Likely there is a relay on the input side of the controller where the normally closed position is connected to the 12V jack, such that when 24V is applied, the relay goes to the normally open position allowing 24V to the controller. Upon loss of power, the relay should fail to the normally closed position which will have a 12V battery hooked to it.

It's easy to test, just hook a 12V battery to the 12V port on the controller while the 24V plug is disconnected....you'll find that the controller powers up...and you're good to go. The Tunze setup is just the same, they just don't sell a shiny super whamidyne setup like Ecotech, choosing rather tell you how to hook a battery to it.

While this is speculation, I would hope that Ecotech uses a 12V regulated Lithium pack, given the price tag of the unit. One can build a reasonably similar unit with NiMH or lead acid batteries for a fraction of the cost of the $160+ that that one retails for....a Lithium based setup would be smaller, last longer per charge, and provide a much longer service life do to the fact that a lithium battery doesn't have the memory like other batteries....which would almost justify the parts. A decent Lithium battery pack will run $50, and a charger $30-40...which would explain the retail of $160. After all, they need to pay the bills.

Chris27
06/07/2011, 12:05 PM
The vortech's official battery backup sets the vortech in a special power saving mode doesn't it? I wonder what tells the controller to do that.

If you look at the battery backup module, you'll find it's only got two wires that connect to the controller. Those two lines are the + and - terminals from the battery. If control was done via the module, you would see an additional multi pin cable connecting between the backup and controller.

Chris27
06/07/2011, 12:10 PM
Would you want to ruin a $450 dollar pump and void the warranty in the process if things don't work out?

DIY is not for the faint of heart......

75pxatr
06/07/2011, 03:04 PM
Great input from all - Thanks. My thoughts were that this would be a great DIY project because we should be able to build a back up from a marine battery that will last far longer than the back up sold commercially(and save $$ too)

kduen
06/07/2011, 03:53 PM
"If" your vortech is already out of waranty and you could find the correct pin size for the 1.3mm input there really isn't that much to lose. I think finding the correct 1.3mm connector will be the hard part.

milkman55
06/07/2011, 07:15 PM
See post 22 in the thread - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1673939

1.3 mm plug is Radio Shack #274-1571 1.3mm, size H DC power plug

Chris27
06/08/2011, 08:34 AM
Here is one that is ready to go from Jameco....all you need to do is swap the plug with the 1.3 mm one and you're good to go.

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&productId=2129351&position=1&category=472015&catalogId=10001&subCategoryName=Batteries+%2F+Rechargeable+Packs+%2F+Li-ion+%28Rechargeable%29&storeId=10001&refine=1&app.products.maxperpage=15&parentCategoryId=4720%24%24472015&categoryName=cat_4720&history=ag0boqle|subCategoryName~Batteries^category~47^categoryName~category_root^prodPage~15^page~S EARCH%252BNAV%40ncbw54l2|category~4720^categoryName~cat_47^position~1^refine~1^subCategoryName~Batte ries%2B%252F%2BRechargeable%2BPacks^prodPage~15^page~SEARCH%252BNAV&ddkey=http:StoreCatalogDrillDownView

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_71192_-1

fatoldsun
03/18/2012, 06:28 AM
Here is one that is ready to go from Jameco....all you need to do is swap the plug with the 1.3 mm one and you're good to go.

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&productId=2129351&position=1&category=472015&catalogId=10001&subCategoryName=Batteries+%2F+Rechargeable+Packs+%2F+Li-ion+%28Rechargeable%29&storeId=10001&refine=1&app.products.maxperpage=15&parentCategoryId=4720%24%24472015&categoryName=cat_4720&history=ag0boqle|subCategoryName~Batteries^category~47^categoryName~category_root^prodPage~15^page~S EARCH%252BNAV%40ncbw54l2|category~4720^categoryName~cat_47^position~1^refine~1^subCategoryName~Batte ries%2B%252F%2BRechargeable%2BPacks^prodPage~15^page~SEARCH%252BNAV&ddkey=http:StoreCatalogDrillDownView

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_71192_-1

Has anyone tried this?

Guillaume
03/18/2012, 07:33 AM
Interesting Thread! Thanks all. Will be following on.

fatoldsun
03/18/2012, 09:02 AM
The jameco site says that Li-Ion pack is 12V DC - 4.5 Amp hours. Ecotech says the pack they sell will run an MP40 for 30 hours. Anyone know how to compare these 2?

docstomper
03/18/2012, 09:14 AM
Maybe they meant...

12VDC 4.5 Amp, hours of power... bahaha..

fonzer
03/19/2012, 12:44 AM
A 12v 18amp sealed lead acid battery will last 36 hours. I would post the link for the DIY, but i think it is against forum rules, as it is from another reefing site. Just search on google.

fatoldsun
07/26/2012, 09:21 AM
A 12v 18amp sealed lead acid battery will last 36 hours. I would post the link for the DIY, but i think it is against forum rules, as it is from another reefing site. Just search on google.
oops - i know it's been a while, not sure this will be seen but i'll ask anyway...
can this be a straight calculation - i.e., the vortech is 30 hours and you're saying 12v 18 amp =~ 36 hours so would that mean that the Jameco option which is 12v 4.5amp is roughly 1/3 of the 36 hour option cited above and therefore the pack they sell would last about 12 hours? If so. that's a DIY battery backup that lasts 1/3 the time and is only half the price (not accounting for the cost of the risk that it won't work as intended) so it really doesn't make sense to make this back-up buying from vortech is a better deal. anyone with a background in electrical engineering want to weigh in?

Saltaholic1
08/06/2014, 03:47 PM
I know this is an old thread. There seems to be question if this works. There is nothing fancy to the setup. Power goes out control unit uses source of backup. 12v dc is 12v dc 12v dc. Amp hours is the like the size of your gas tank. Higher the number the more charge the battery holds. Vortech uses 18 amp hour battery's. Here is an identical rated battery for a fraction of the cost. http://www.apexbattery.com/genesis-np18-12-battery.html?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=18283950120&gclid=CjwKEAjwpIefBRCuir7wy-f1kCwSJADXBi2a98TIgnRxSAYqyCg0GcwBT7crs8NCJUATjT75QXMh5BoCCR_w_wcB

With the addition of a plug and some light gauge wire you have a battery backup for a fraction of the cost.