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Mr.Tan
06/10/2011, 10:17 PM
I read through the fish disease treatment section of the forum, but im still a bit confused and lost as to what to do... My one clown has ich, i noticed it starting yesterday and get progressively worse. I've dealt with ich before in my freshwater tanks, but it seems to be a lot more extensive and time consuming/a problem in saltwater tanks from what i've been looking at. Main questions, i assume a QT is going to be the best and only real route to take with this? And if so, how should i go about doing this? I mean, I've read that setting up a QT tank can take awhile for stuff to cycle etc.. I don't think I have that much time to work with unfortunatly. Can i just use water from my DT in the QT? or is that a bad idea....Also, will i need to set up a filter system or can i just use like an airstone to provide oxygen? i've been reading some people say that should be enough and to make sure i clean out the QT regularly? Like i said, im completely lost and I don't know how to start, i dont want it to spread and infect my other fish, however i have a feeling it will if i don't act soon.

thanks in advance.

-corey

CarlitosReef
06/10/2011, 10:21 PM
From what I been reading and learning is, having a sump with a refu comes in handy for this situation. Place the clown in the refu so it can be treated there, until it gets better places it back in the DT.

"You can help create your own luck, you can make things happen through hard work and intelligence."- Donald J. Trump

thebkramer
06/10/2011, 10:23 PM
So Sorry..
here is a great place to start..

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1500214

Flounder73
06/10/2011, 10:23 PM
I am no expert, but I believe you will have to QT all your fish and leave your display free of any fish for several weeks. As far as your QT tank it is pretty basic as you described. Filter, heater, airstone would work, and some PVC for hiding places. Good luck!

Aquarist007
06/10/2011, 10:47 PM
I read through the fish disease treatment section of the forum, but im still a bit confused and lost as to what to do... My one clown has ich, i noticed it starting yesterday and get progressively worse. I've dealt with ich before in my freshwater tanks, but it seems to be a lot more extensive and time consuming/a problem in saltwater tanks from what i've been looking at. Main questions, i assume a QT is going to be the best and only real route to take with this? And if so, how should i go about doing this? I mean, I've read that setting up a QT tank can take awhile for stuff to cycle etc.. I don't think I have that much time to work with unfortunatly. Can i just use water from my DT in the QT? or is that a bad idea....Also, will i need to set up a filter system or can i just use like an airstone to provide oxygen? i've been reading some people say that should be enough and to make sure i clean out the QT regularly? Like i said, im completely lost and I don't know how to start, i dont want it to spread and infect my other fish, however i have a feeling it will if i don't act soon.

thanks in advance.

-corey

If the clown has already been added to the display tank then the damage has been done. No sense removing it now. The best thing to do now is feed the heck out of it with a variety of foods soaked in garlic. If there are other fish in there, lets hope they have been well fed and have strong immune systems so as to help mimize the affect of ich on them.

Unless your tank is kept fishless for 6 to 8 weeks then the ich will probably be in there.
From now on I would qt all fish for a few weeks and get them really healthy before adding them to the display tank.

b0bab0ey
06/10/2011, 11:00 PM
Setting up a QT doesn't have to be complicated. Read here:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1846124

Also, check out these two threads about setting up a QT (complete w/pics):

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1990651&highlight=setting+qt

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1866770&highlight=setting+qt

I recommend you QT that clownfish and treat with Cupramine. You will probably have to end up treating all your fish in QT and leave your DT fishless for 6-8 to starve out the Ich.

Mr.Tan
06/11/2011, 09:21 PM
Thanks for all the insight! Helped me learn/understand a lot..unfortunatly its nto helping my clown buddy. He is not doing good, moved into a QT tank that i used water from the main tank because i couldn't just set something up right away and use fresh saltwater and not have a problem. He is laying on his side and is hardly moving, not looking good at all :( . If he doesn't make it I am going to be super depressed...

Aquarist007
06/11/2011, 10:05 PM
Thanks for all the insight! Helped me learn/understand a lot..unfortunatly its nto helping my clown buddy. He is not doing good, moved into a QT tank that i used water from the main tank because i couldn't just set something up right away and use fresh saltwater and not have a problem. He is laying on his side and is hardly moving, not looking good at all :( . If he doesn't make it I am going to be super depressed...

what are you treating it with in the qt?

sjwitt
06/12/2011, 06:58 AM
I think using DT water is BETTER so don't stress about doing that. You have moved the fish and kept it in the exact same water parameters (which means less stress on the fish).

+1 on the question what are you treating it with in QT?

Mr.Tan
06/12/2011, 07:40 AM
I didn't use anything right away, i was only able to take a trip down to the petco (literally 4 minutes from my house) and couldn't make it to that fish place like i usually do (which is only 15 minutes haha)... Petco didn't have anything to treat it with, so i was going to wait until today to go to TFP to get something to treat him with, however won't need to anymore...he died over night, pretty much expected it to happen since he had no color at all before i went to bed and wasent moving like he usually did.

thebkramer
06/12/2011, 08:23 AM
:sad1:
So Sorry for your loss.. I know it hurts!! :'(

If the Clownfish def had ICH.. then your DT is probably infested :sad2:
You will need to remove all fish from DT and quarantine them (treat) to rid tank of ICH..
(you don't Have to per say, but is recommended)

what were you using as QT and what did you have running in there?? (filter, powerhead, etc)

Aquarist007
06/12/2011, 12:09 PM
I didn't use anything right away, i was only able to take a trip down to the petco (literally 4 minutes from my house) and couldn't make it to that fish place like i usually do (which is only 15 minutes haha)... Petco didn't have anything to treat it with, so i was going to wait until today to go to TFP to get something to treat him with, however won't need to anymore...he died over night, pretty much expected it to happen since he had no color at all before i went to bed and wasent moving like he usually did.

Sorry to hear that.
For future aquistions I would recommend you quarantine all your fish and get them healthy first before adding them to the display tank.
The ich will always be in the display tank unless you keep it fishless for 6 to 8 weeks.
A very healthy fish has a better chance at surviving then a fish that has just been caught, starved for a week, shipped in a container where pH etc is allowed to rapidly changed, netted again and thrown in with alot of fish they have probably never seen before, netted again, acclimated to your conditions----in other words major stress.
As a precaution my main supplier keeps all new fish in copper solution--have strength.
The exception is tangs who do not do well in copper---rather hyposalinate them if ich and only if ich is observed. With hyposalinity you bring the salt level down to 1.009 over a 12 hour period and keep it like that for 4 weeks.

I should add that both these techniques are stress to the fish so I feel the best way is to qt them and fatten them up --only medicate if you have to.

Once again sorry for your loss

Mr.Tan
06/12/2011, 07:18 PM
:sad1:
So Sorry for your loss.. I know it hurts!! :'(

If the Clownfish def had ICH.. then your DT is probably infested :sad2:
You will need to remove all fish from DT and quarantine them (treat) to rid tank of ICH..
(you don't Have to per say, but is recommended)

what were you using as QT and what did you have running in there?? (filter, powerhead, etc)

thanks! He for sure had ich, i've had experience with it from keeping freshwater tanks for many years so i am familiar with it and i've done reading and seen pictures so it all added up...

The QT tank was extremely temporary, just a 3 gallon (all i had) tank with a HOB filter i had laying around with a sponge for temporary. not the best but it was what i had and allowed for atleast some circulation... I need to set up something better, what would you recommend i do since i don't have much time to work with to leave a QT cycle, etc...

Sorry to hear that.
For future aquistions I would recommend you quarantine all your fish and get them healthy first before adding them to the display tank.
The ich will always be in the display tank unless you keep it fishless for 6 to 8 weeks.
A very healthy fish has a better chance at surviving then a fish that has just been caught, starved for a week, shipped in a container where pH etc is allowed to rapidly changed, netted again and thrown in with alot of fish they have probably never seen before, netted again, acclimated to your conditions----in other words major stress.
As a precaution my main supplier keeps all new fish in copper solution--have strength.
The exception is tangs who do not do well in copper---rather hyposalinate them if ich and only if ich is observed. With hyposalinity you bring the salt level down to 1.009 over a 12 hour period and keep it like that for 4 weeks.

I should add that both these techniques are stress to the fish so I feel the best way is to qt them and fatten them up --only medicate if you have to.

Once again sorry for your loss

Yeah i've learned my lesson, i am for sure going to QT all fish before they go into the DT, i don' tneed this headache to happen again. I know i need to remove all the fish now from the tank and do the 6-8 week thing for DT itself, but my problem is where to go with the fish already in it, like my QT isn' tbig enough for them (2 green chromis and a coral beaty and starry blenny and the 1 clown i have left) and i know no one local that could take them for me... Is there anything i can raelly do besides that? i dont want them to get ich and die, but i don't want to not do anything.


thanks for all the help

thebkramer
06/12/2011, 07:38 PM
Can you get a bigger QT?
you only the need the bare minimum for a QT and it won't go through a cycle.
have you read Waterkeepers info on QT's??
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1207733

and I gave you the thread link for Ich from Waterkeeper :)
take a look at those and let us know if you have more questions...
the Capn's Log Book also has great info!!
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1786183

Mr.Tan
06/12/2011, 08:05 PM
Absolutely! I am actually going to pick up a 10 gallon tank tomorrow or tuesday from petco, they only want $14 for one so i feel like its so good to pass up, plus i know this 3 gallon is to small and its just a cheap one that i picked up (one of those cheap plastic pieces , im kinda irritated i bought it and not the 10 gallon to start since it was only a 3 different :mad:). So the tank itself doesnt need to go through a cycle? I mean, should i use existing DT water (i feel like it will just transfer any ich that is in the tank already)? Or is it ok to use RO water and then that wont start the cycle or anything like that... sorry, im a bit confused :spin2:

I haven't read that thread, but i am going to right now!


edit: just read the first thread, seems really simple to setup.. im gonna get all the stuff and make sure to get it all done up and ready to go.

I also skimmed the other thread, noticed the freshwater dip... Is this common/stressful on the fish? i mean i've never heard of it and it seems bad for it to put it in just freshwater!? Is it possible to tread ich this way? i mean the bottle of stuff i scooped today said for a rapid treatment dip the fish and use the required amount of treatment per gallon, and leave hte fish in for 30 minutes, is this what they mean?

thebkramer
06/12/2011, 08:22 PM
all treatments can be stressful on fish..
with that said.. I personally would do the copper treatment in QT and keep DT fallow for atleast 8 weeks.. and since it has to be 8 weeks, I think a 10g QT might be too small.. hopefully someone else will chime in there ;)

Mr.Tan
06/12/2011, 08:33 PM
I was afraid of that, so like a 20 gallon? 8 weeks seems like forever for qt!! Haha... As for doing copper treatment, that needs done in main tank also? Or just in qt tank? Such a lenghty process this is.. Wish i would have realized how important a qt tank was before hand for acclimating fish

thebkramer
06/12/2011, 08:40 PM
Many of us have been there!!! Including myself!! Never knew about alot of things until I found RC!!! :lolspin:
I personally lost 6 fish to ICH.. I then finally decided to TREAT!! and now I QT everything!!!!
About how big are all your fish? you want to keep them as stress free as possible when in the QT during treatment. I might even do a 30g to keep your mind at ease :)
COPPER will kill all the goodies in a DT (inverts, pods, etc) and thats why we do a QT!!! :lol2: otherwise we would just treat the DT.. but nothing is that easy in Saltwater :lol:

Mr.Tan
06/12/2011, 08:56 PM
Well atleast i know i am not the only one that mad these mistakes! Im just glad i found this place and that you and everyone else is so incredibly helpful!.. The fish arent that big, the starry blenny and coral beauty are the two biggest at about maybe 3 inches or less( im not good with sizes haha)... If im doing a 30 gallon holy cow, thatll be 1 gallon more then my DT is! If thats the case i might consider ghis a time to ulgrade to a bigger tank n make the current 29 gallon the qt tank or something haha

thebkramer
06/12/2011, 09:11 PM
:lol:

I'm just crazy like that!! hahahaha a 30g may be too big.. a 20g may be too.. I'm sure someone else will chime in eventually on that ;)
When I did the QT for all my fish for ICH.. I used a 30g, but I already had one laying around.. I now use a 10g for quarantining single fish before putting in my DT.
a 10g may be just the right size for your inhabitants :lol2:

Edit:
and upgrading is never a bad idea!!! :lolspin:

Aquarist007
06/12/2011, 10:35 PM
I was afraid of that, so like a 20 gallon? 8 weeks seems like forever for qt!! Haha... As for doing copper treatment, that needs done in main tank also? Or just in qt tank? Such a lenghty process this is.. Wish i would have realized how important a qt tank was before hand for acclimating fish


If you use copper in the maintank then you will kill all life in it including the bacteria on the rock. This is why you use a qt tank to treat fish.

To setup the qt tank use a hob filter for three days on the display tank---that will seed it with enough bacteria. Also use display tank water.
Do not put live rock in the qt if you are going to use copper otherwise the rock is toast.

There are really only three established methods of treating ich---all require a qt
copper
hyposalinity
series of water changes that coincide with the stages of ich( a difficult method to master)

There are other parasites other then ich. I suggest you treat the qt with Prazipro also which is very affective against flukes and other parasites.

Mr.Tan
06/13/2011, 08:06 AM
:lol:

I'm just crazy like that!! hahahaha a 30g may be too big.. a 20g may be too.. I'm sure someone else will chime in eventually on that ;)
When I did the QT for all my fish for ICH.. I used a 30g, but I already had one laying around.. I now use a 10g for quarantining single fish before putting in my DT.
a 10g may be just the right size for your inhabitants :lol2:

Edit:
and upgrading is never a bad idea!!! :lolspin:

:lmao: . I mean i guess i'll have to wait and see what other people say also, i'd like to get away with a 10g QT tank, sicne it will take up less space and then for the future be a little less overkill, ya know? I probably wont be able to upgrade until i move out (still livin at home while in school). When i do i'm for sure going to pick up a 120 gallon!

If you use copper in the maintank then you will kill all life in it including the bacteria on the rock. This is why you use a qt tank to treat fish.

To setup the qt tank use a hob filter for three days on the display tank---that will seed it with enough bacteria. Also use display tank water.
Do not put live rock in the qt if you are going to use copper otherwise the rock is toast.

There are really only three established methods of treating ich---all require a qt
copper
hyposalinity
series of water changes that coincide with the stages of ich( a difficult method to master)

There are other parasites other then ich. I suggest you treat the qt with Prazipro also which is very affective against flukes and other parasites.

I figured the copper would most likely kill everything in the DT, so when i remove everything and put it in a QT for the 6-8 weeks do i just leave the DT empty and not treat it with anything to get rid of any ich that is in it? I'll get a HOB unit and put on the tank for 3 days before putting it on to the QT, run no carbon it it right? just a sponge and thats it?

Copper seems the easiest to do with treating for ich on the fish, i'll probably do that instead of hyposalinity or the other one... Only other thing is I have a coral banded shrimp and I don't want him to die due to the copper i would treat with in a QT. is it ok to leave him in the DT if i don't have to treat it with anything? (in regards to my previous question above about what to do with the DT)

thanks!

shifty51008
06/13/2011, 08:19 AM
If the clown has already been added to the display tank then the damage has been done. No sense removing it now. The best thing to do now is feed the heck out of it with a variety of foods soaked in garlic. If there are other fish in there, lets hope they have been well fed and have strong immune systems so as to help mimize the affect of ich on them.

Unless your tank is kept fishless for 6 to 8 weeks then the ich will probably be in there.
From now on I would qt all fish for a few weeks and get them really healthy before adding them to the display tank.

if the fish is already in the DT then it would be almost pointless to QT other fish for ich before putting them in the DT because the DT will already have it.

you will have to do either hypo or copper on "ALL" the fish and leave the main tank fishless for 6-8 weeks to rid the tank and fish of ich then QT all new arrivals

shifty51008
06/13/2011, 08:20 AM
only fish need to be treated, inverts and corals don't leave them in the DT.

thebkramer
06/13/2011, 08:27 AM
I figured the copper would most likely kill everything in the DT, so when i remove everything and put it in a QT for the 6-8 weeks do i just leave the DT empty and not treat it with anything to get rid of any ich that is in it? I'll get a HOB unit and put on the tank for 3 days before putting it on to the QT

ICH has to have a host to survive.. so if you pull out all your fish.. they have nothing to attach to, and will die off. We say 6-8 weeks because that is around the life cycle of ICH..

Copper seems the easiest to do with treating for ich on the fish, i'll probably do that instead of hyposalinity or the other one... Only other thing is I have a coral banded shrimp and I don't want him to die due to the copper i would treat with in a QT. is it ok to leave him in the DT if i don't have to treat it with anything? (in regards to my previous question above about what to do with the DT)

leave your CB shrimp & all inverts in DT.. they do not get ICH.. they can carry it into a tank.. but not host it ;) treat QT only with Copper.. as I stated above.. ICH will die off in DT without a host :bounce3:

crobattt
06/13/2011, 08:54 AM
From what I been reading and learning is, having a sump with a refu comes in handy for this situation. Place the clown in the refu so it can be treated there, until it gets better places it back in the DT.

"You can help create your own luck, you can make things happen through hard work and intelligence."- Donald J. Trump

Why would you treat in your sump? Anything in the sump will eventually end in the DT?...

Mr.Tan
06/13/2011, 09:06 AM
if the fish is already in the DT then it would be almost pointless to QT other fish for ich before putting them in the DT because the DT will already have it.

you will have to do either hypo or copper on "ALL" the fish and leave the main tank fishless for 6-8 weeks to rid the tank and fish of ich then QT all new arrivals

Alright, so 6-8 weeks it is. Kind of unfortunate, but i guess i need to do what needs done to help fix it. I just wish i would have read more and had a better input when i first started, would save me a lot of time and headache ifi knew to QT the fish before putting them in...never had this problem with my freshwater tanks ever! is a 10g QT going to be to small to keep my fish in? i'd rather not get to big of one since after this whole thing is fixed it will only get house like 1 fish at a time for the QT process... And also, do I only run a sponge filter in the HOB unit for the QT tank?

ICH has to have a host to survive.. so if you pull out all your fish.. they have nothing to attach to, and will die off. We say 6-8 weeks because that is around the life cycle of ICH..



leave your CB shrimp & all inverts in DT.. they do not get ICH.. they can carry it into a tank.. but not host it ;) treat QT only with Copper.. as I stated above.. ICH will die off in DT without a host :bounce3:

Ahh, makes sense now...i was wondering where/why it was actually 6-8 weeks. Thanks for explaining that, i was extremely confused as to what to do. Im glad i don't have to treat the DT, would be even more of a headache since everything is stable now and going smooth (except for this darn ich! :angryfire:)

Atleast if I leave the CB shrimp/hermits and snails in i'll have something to look at for that time. Although i feel like my CB will be lonely since her and my starry blenny always hang out together. :hmm5:



thanks again to everyone for the help/input! i'd be lost without it!!!! :beer:

thebkramer
06/13/2011, 09:10 AM
Although i feel like my CB will be lonely since her and my starry blenny always hang out together. :hmm5:

put the tanks next to each other.. they can play through the glass :lol: :twitch:

Mr.Tan
06/13/2011, 10:25 AM
put the tanks next to each other.. they can play through the glass :lol: :twitch:

:lolspin: , i would if i could!


now, do i perform water changes and such on the QT frequently? and still feed them once daily?

pentrix2
06/13/2011, 11:19 AM
put the tanks next to each other.. they can play through the glass :lol: :twitch:

hahaha

:beer:

Mr.Tan
06/13/2011, 12:57 PM
so does anyone know if a 10 gallon is to small to use as a QT tank for 5 fish for the 6-8 week period? i really don't want to get anything to much bigger since its going to remain as a QT/hospital tank for the future and will most likely only hold 1 fish at a time...and rarely get used since i don't really plan to get any more fish except to replace my clown that died (but not until after i fish this current ich problem)....or should i get a 20 gallon and then turn it into a sump/refugium when im done and then just get a 10 gallon as a QT tank? or is 20 gallon to small for a sump/refu. for a 29 gallon..

Aquarist007
06/13/2011, 09:51 PM
so does anyone know if a 10 gallon is to small to use as a QT tank for 5 fish for the 6-8 week period? i really don't want to get anything to much bigger since its going to remain as a QT/hospital tank for the future and will most likely only hold 1 fish at a time...and rarely get used since i don't really plan to get any more fish except to replace my clown that died (but not until after i fish this current ich problem)....or should i get a 20 gallon and then turn it into a sump/refugium when im done and then just get a 10 gallon as a QT tank? or is 20 gallon to small for a sump/refu. for a 29 gallon..

imo it is too small for that number of fish

monitor the ammonia levels in the qt and then do a water change if necessary
Everytime you do a water change you must adjust the level of copper again.

20 gal would be an excellent sump for a 29 gal.
The sump itself is just another tank in which to hand or add protein skimmers, heaters etc so they don't mess up your main tank
However you can add reef rock and rubble to them to beef up the filtration system, turn them into a refugium and they do increase the overall amount of water you have in your system.

Mr.Tan
06/14/2011, 08:16 AM
imo it is too small for that number of fish

monitor the ammonia levels in the qt and then do a water change if necessary
Everytime you do a water change you must adjust the level of copper again.

20 gal would be an excellent sump for a 29 gal.
The sump itself is just another tank in which to hand or add protein skimmers, heaters etc so they don't mess up your main tank
However you can add reef rock and rubble to them to beef up the filtration system, turn them into a refugium and they do increase the overall amount of water you have in your system.


I was afraid that it might be. I'll figure something out then to handle them if I see an outbreak and need to take action, but so far so good no other fish have any signs of ich, and the clown looks to be clearing up good after doing the dip with the medicine (bottle recommended). As for the sump size, im releaved to hear 20g will be a good size. I plan to put a skimmer in it and then have a refugium on the other size with some macro and rubble LR. And also add my heater to clear out the DT so it isn't so cluttered.

Aquarist007
06/14/2011, 05:26 PM
I was afraid that it might be. I'll figure something out then to handle them if I see an outbreak and need to take action, but so far so good no other fish have any signs of ich, and the clown looks to be clearing up good after doing the dip with the medicine (bottle recommended). As for the sump size, im releaved to hear 20g will be a good size. I plan to put a skimmer in it and then have a refugium on the other size with some macro and rubble LR. And also add my heater to clear out the DT so it isn't so cluttered.

Okay I am a touch confused here

Are you still attending to treat all fish in the qt and let the dt go fishless for 8 weeks?