Huge PH Problem

[Bonvivant]

Ok, I am tearing my hair out on this! This is horrible because I have very little to begin with. I had a 50 gallon with 18 gallon sump. PH was between 7.8-8.1 with no problems. I run a CA Reactor. About 3 weeks ago I added a 40 gallon sump and 25 gallon display refugium. I also added a 20 gallon brute trash can as a dsb and cryptic fuge. I used Kolorscape sand for the fuge and sump refugium. I also added about 30-40 pounds of cured live rock. I also used 80 pounds of Tropic Eden Aragasnow for substrate in the display refugium. I have the sum refugium on a reverse daylight schedule.

Previously, I had been using NSW. However, as a result of the larger amount of water needed, I decided to use Red Sea Coral Pro. When I initially mixed an aerated it, the water had a ph of 7.8. I thought this was odd but I used it anyway.

Now for the last 2 weeks I have been battling extremely low PH. I swing from 7.77-7.3. I started using Limewater about a week ago but I have had to manual dose while I wait for a Kalk reactor to come in. I can get the tank up to 8.4 but within a matter of 12 hours its back down to 7.4 or so. I have opened all of the windows and added an air stone from a pump located outside. I have added a pump to the sump to increase surface agitation but it only drove the ph lower! I stopped using the CA reactor about a week ago but there has been no change. I extended a tube for the skimmers air intake outside of the cabinet. Nothing. I am completely frustrated.

My parameters are as follows:
Using salifert Kits:

Ph-7.3-7.-using electronic DA probe (which was recalibrated and tested using RO/DI water)

9.6 DKH
400 Calcium
79.0 Temp
1.26 Salinity
1380 Mag

Is there some contaminent that might be causing the low PH? Do you think there is a cycle? Do you think it may be the Kolorscape sand I used? Any help is greatly appreciated!

[ChrisKirkland]

Did you recalibrate your meter with calibration solution? When you test your PH do you draw a cup of water out of the tank and test it?

[Bonvivant]

I re calibrated with brand new DA solution. The probe is in the tank and gives a constant reading.

[Bonvivant]

Do you think it might be the Red Sea Coral Pro? Should I do a massive water change with NSW? I know others have said water changes don't help but I don't know what to do.

[jimmy_beaner]

a "massive" water change may cause a "massive" pH swing, which would be very bad. If you can control it, you should slowly adjust the pH.

[Bonvivant]

I am going to install the Kalk reactor with a controller so that it applies Kalk when lower then 8.0 but I am hoping that I don't run into salinity issues. Right now it takes about a gallon of Limewater to get it back to 8.4.

[cromedogg33]

I'm curious, you say you took the Ca reactor offline, but you added an airstone, and more surface agitation?

If I'm not mistaken you took the Ca reator offline which lowers your PH, but then you added the airstone and more agitation which also lowers PH. Why would you do this?

I also see your SG at 1.26 which I sure hope is wrong.

[Bonvivant]

Sorry 1.026. Surface agitation and more air increase ph.

[cromedogg33]

Sorry was thinking when adding vinegar to lower PH to run an airstone as well to help kind of brainfarted there.

You've hopefully read this article:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php

You would probably be best serverd to run Kalk in your ATO so that you can keep your PH elevated constantly.

If there is one thing I've learned from RHF it's that most PH readings come in false. You may have recalibrated your probe but are you certain your probe isn't going bad? I would also verify your Alkalinity.

[Bonvivant]

Randy's articles has been a God send! I have read them all. I just ordered a new probe. I am going to re-verify my DKH reading. If it is the same, I am going to raise it to 11 with Randy's Recipe No. 1 for Alkalinity. I think I got a bad batch of Red Sea Coral Pro.

[Bonvivant]

Ok, so the update. As I said previously, my PH is very low. goes down to 7.3. My dkh was 9.6. I decided to raise it using the alkalinity portion of Randy's Recipe No. 1 (ie Baked Baking Soda). I dripped about half of the recommended dose when I experienced an abiotic precipitation event. Well, now my PH is reading 7.2 and everything is covered in precipitate. I suspect that my PH probe may be bad so I have ordered another. However, my tank is really suffering. i have several acro colonies either bleaching or showing zero polp extension. I am really frustrated.

[cromedogg33]

What are you checking your dkh with? If I've learned anything is don't chase PH unless there is a problem. Were you seeing any ill affects from your "low PH" or were you chasing numbers to get them in check?

[Bonvivant]

I am definitely a proponent of your theory but in this case I saw the effects in my tank. Very reduced polyp extension, bleaching ect. I used a Salifert test kit. It is not expired but apparently my DKH must have been higher then measured. What is frustrating is that everything was rock solid and beautiful for over a year. I added the new items to provide more stability and increased food but it might end up destroying everything.

[Bonvivant]

If the new probe shows the same PH readings then I am seriously considering replacing all of the water in 3 or 4 massive water changes.

[Tbduval]

I find it hard to believe your PH is really that low. I could see 7.6 on the low side but 7.2 I can't believe. Let's slow down some. Changing the all the water in 3 or 4 WC's can cause its own issues. You are testing with a probe, which is good. You are using the 7 & 10 fluids to calibrate it right? Is your PH going up during when the lights are on?

It sounds to me you may have excessive CO2 in the tank. You should really do the outside test and see if raises will outside. I would unplug everything from your tank except for the main pump. See if the PH changes, if not unplug the main pump, see what PH does. Let's make sure there is no interference going on with the probe. Let us know.

[Bonvivant]

I'm just frustrated. Yes I calibrated the probe with the DA 7 and 10 packets that were newly purchased. The ph does go up in the day to about 7.6-7.77 and then drops at night. I never thought that the probe might be experiencing interference. I moved it to the display tank. However, the probe wire does cross some electrical wires. The problem is that I observe changes in the tank. When PH is at the low range polyp extension is zero. When the PH is raised everything perks up. Also, the PH drops slowly over about a 12 hour period. I have run an air pump from outside to introduce fresh air. I have also increased agitation in the sump and moved the skimmers air intake further from the cabinet.

[Tbduval]

Not sure if you are experiencing interference. Just something to rule out since it is an electrical equipment. Are you having any hair algae or other algae issues?

[Bonvivant]

Not really. Have had some cyano growing. Why?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is there some contaminent that might be causing the low PH?

I don't believe the pH 7.3 is real.

No, there is nothing impacting pH in seawater aside from alkalinity and CO2 level. Together those determine the pH exactly.

So if pH is low and alkalinity is OK, then CO2 levels are high.

Try aerating a cup of tank water outside for an hour. The pH should rise a lot. When it does, that confirms it is CO2. If not, then there is a measurement problem of some sort.

This has more:

Low pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.htm

[cromedogg33]

I am definitely a proponent of your theory but in this case I saw the effects in my tank. Very reduced polyp extension, bleaching ect. I used a Salifert test kit. It is not expired but apparently my DKH must have been higher then measured. What is frustrating is that everything was rock solid and beautiful for over a year. I added the new items to provide more stability and increased food but it might end up destroying everything.



This is what concerns me... "the new items"

Have you contemplated turning these completely off to see if you introduced something? For every action there is and equal but opposite reaction :hmm5:

You say you just added these and now you are having the problems....

That would be my starting point.

[jtma508]

Oh-oh... this sounds like the infamous ground-loop. Is your controller connnected to your computer? If so, try disconnecting your controller-computer cable and see what your pH does. I know this sounds odd but trust me, it is a known issue.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There are other interference issues as well. Measuring the pH in a cup of tank water away from tank lights and such can also diagnose such interferences. :)

[Tbduval]

Not really. Have had some cyano growing. Why?

Algae can cause excessive CO2. I agree with Randy, 7.3 PH is just hard to believe. The natural compound on the saltwater should provide some sort of buffering. Check to see if you any interfernce going on. If that does not work, check the CO2 how Randy described. Believe me, this man knows his saltwater chemistry! Let us know what you find out.

[Bonvivant]

Thank you so much to all of you. Randy, you are the guru and I appreciate you taking your time to consider my problem. If I can ever help in some way feel free to shoot me a pm. I can not match your expertise in science but I am an attorney. That goes for all of you too!

Ok, so here is the plan for tonight. I am going to aerate a cup of water outside for an hour. I am going to check for any potential sources of interference with the probe. My system is not hooked up to the computer but the wires are pretty jumbled together with other wires. I have one packet of calibration solution left over. I'm going to see what kind of reading the probe gives with this. I don't have any nuisance algae problems but I do have a bunch of macro-algae that I added to the system when I added the sump and display refugium. However, I have the sump and DT on a reverse lighting schedule.

One other question: do I have to take any action to remove precipitate from the corals or macro algae? if so, how?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That sounds like a fine plan. :)

Sorry, what precipitate?



Algae doesn't generally cause low pH. If anything, lit algae photosynthesizes, using up CO2 and raising pH. :)

OTOH, very low pH may accelerate algae by providing CO2.

[Bonvivant]

I had some abiotic precipitation when I tried to raise dkh from 9.6 to 11. I guess that proves that ph was probably normal. I determined that the probe is bad. I have another o.e coming in tomorrow. Hopefully things are not horribly out of whack. Im gonna lose a few nice sps colonies. Im angry at myself. I should have known bettsr.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There's not much you need to or can do about such precipitates. They disappear from view over a week or two, and cause no apparent harm, usually. :)

[Bonvivant]

It will just redissolve? It is covering everything.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Scrape the glass, like there is algae on it and it generally comes of that. But on rocks and such, it disappears over time. I do not think it dissolves. It just ends up disappearing into the sand and detritus. I've had it happen several times. It takes a week or 10 days. :)

I discuss it and related issues here:


What is that Precipitate in My Reef Aquarium?
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.htm

[Bonvivant]

Ok, so here is the update. I received the new DA probe. I calibrated it and tested it. It is spot on. I rerouted the cable so that it is not close to any other power cable. The new measurement was 7.77 with lights on to 7.47 middle of night period. So I am right back were I started. I am waiting for my Kalk reactor to arrive. Maybe that will help matters.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Did you try measuring pH away from the tank in a cup of water?

Are you using the same calibration fluids? They can go bad.

[Bonvivant]

I did the test and yes the PH did raise from 7.6 to 8.1. The calibrating solution came with the new probe. What i don't understand is why the house would be saturated in Co2 now. Before I added the extra volume to the tank PH was never an issue. Could it be that there is now much more surface agitation with the larger sump; RDSB; and new display refugium?

[Tbduval]

Did you do the test outside or in the house with a cup outside of the tank?

[Bonvivant]

Outside of the house on the balcony.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So aerating a cup of water inside will tell you whether it is excess CO2 in the air, or just the aquarium. :)

[Bonvivant]

Ok, I will do the inside test tonight. If it is excess Co2 in the aquarium then am I correct in saying that Limewater supplementation should resolve the issue? I think it must be excess Co2 in the house since when I increased agitation of the sump surface it actually lowered ph.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Limewater helps whatever the cause is. Open windows helps only if the indoor air has excess CO2. Increased aeration with the existing indoor air only helps if the air has normal CO2. :)

[Bonvivant]

I understand. I just hope that limewater as top off is sufficient.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You can't really know without trying. In many cases it is. :)

[ColaAddict]

Can someone direct me to a link to properly using limewater?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This has a lot of info on it:

What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm

[ColaAddict]

Thanks for the link/info Randy :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome. Just pop back if you have additional questions. :)

Good luck.

[Bonvivant]

Ok, another update. Today, the PH has risen to 7.9 during the day. I am unsure if the new probe has settled in or if the tank was in a cycle because of the additions. Whatever the case, the damage has been done. Looks like I am going to lose at least three Acro colonies. It really sucks because I grew them from small frags. Tomorrow I am putting the Kalk reactor online. After it settles in I will put the Calcium Reactor back on line. I will keep you guys posted.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I didn't notice you ran a CaCO3/CO2 reactor. Maybe it was grossly miscalibrated, adding excessive CO2.

[Bonvivant]

I thought the same thing. It has been off for the last week.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

When you start it back up, trying reducing the CO2 flow substantially. :)

[Bonvivant]

I think I'm going to rename this forum "How to Utterly Destroy a Beautiful Reef in 10 Easy Steps!" A bit of an update. I received my Kalk reactor the other day. I needed the reactor to deal with a low PH Problem. Well while I was setting it up I inadvertently exposed it to full line pressure from my RO/DI Unit. Anyone wish to venture a guess as to what happened next??? Well lets just say it involved a big boom and me (and my surrounding environment) being completely covered in Limewater and Kalk paste. Well, after a day of cleaning up and another day of fixing the reactor, I get hit with a power outage that is predicted to last for several days. Guess what, the Vortech Power backup only lasts 24 hours. So, I am guessing things are not going to work out well for my poor reef. I think I may be rebooting in the near future. Oh well...at this point I just want to see what happens next.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, good luck dealing with these issues. We all experience them from time to time. :(

[Bonvivant]

Ok, another update. My PH issues continue. I now swing between 7.9 (day) and 7.4(lights out). I have all of the windows in my condo open. I run fans in the house and over the tank surface. I have an air pump pumping air from the outside to a DIY Kalk Co2 scrubber into my Skimmer AND an extra red dragon pump with venturi in the sump. I ordered the Co2 scrubbing media and filter which I will set up tonight. I am also using limewater for topoff. Almost all of my sps has died. The rest of my once healthy reef is not happy or healthy. I am at my wits end. If this media doesn't work then I am going to go back to my original setup and start over. I messed up a beautiful reef in an attempt to make things better when things were just fine as they were.

[Bonvivant]

Ok, great news this morning. I have determined that my ph test kit and sl2 unit were both bad. So I bypassed the sl2 and recalibrated my ph probe for the sl1. The results were interesting. My PH now ranges from 7.91-8.29. I am super happy about that. Second discovery was that my temp probe was malfunctioning. This caused the tank to actually be at 72.4 instead of the 79.0 I normally maintain. The temperature combined with the shifting water parameters (my attempts to raise PH) might be why so many SPS died. I'm sad that I lost beautiful colonies but happy that things are finally working out. I now have an excuse to restock with nicer SPS when things have been stable for a while! Thank you everyone!