Nitrates at 40ppm

[SwiftysReef]

my nitrate level is high and i was wonderin what else i can try to lower them outside of changing the water. just want to hear differant experiments that worked well for all of you. and also could someone point me in the right direction in learning more about carbon dosing, vinegar, vodka, im pretty interested in learning differant technique to make my system thrive. thanks in advance

[jcw]

I was having serious nitrate issues and hair algae. After about only one month of dosing vodka then vodka and vinegar, the ha vanished and nitrates are zero on api test kit.

I am an absolute believer.

melev had a no nonsense short write up...

[HighlandReefer]

Nate's article provides good information regarding carbon dosing. If you want to use vinegar instead, you will need to use 8X as much vinegar as vodka.

Vodka Dosing...Distilled!
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

[m2434]

Carbon dosing is great, but is more advanced IMO and not always necessary. It's actually last on my standard nitrate reduction answer:

The following will all either directly or indirectly help keep nitrates down

-Efficient Protein skimming- Keep protein skimmer clean and use a good one.
-Clean water source- RO/DI water - make sure output is 0 tds.
-harvest macro algae in fuge
-feed smaller amounts more, rather than lots less often.
-keep amount fed consistent to maintain steady biomass rather than allow fluctuating biomass.
-good cleanup crew
-Run carbon and GFO.
-Keep filters clean - remove detritus
-Keep substrate clean of detritus.
-Avoid dead spots, make sure there is flow
-Probably best to avoid any biofilter other than sand and LR.
-Remote deep sand bed
-more advanced and may be much more risky, but carbon dosing can be effective.


Also, I would suggest looking at this article.
Aquarium Chemistry: Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium — Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine

[HighlandReefer]

For reference, the article m2434 has sighted above is listed below:
Good suggestions m2434 ;)

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/chem.htm

You may want to read this article as well:

Phosphate and the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

[Phsycodelic81]

A diy nitrater reactor can be helpfull

[tmz]

I keep them down with vodka and vinegar dosing. Took them down initially a couple of years ago with a diy sulfur denitrator.

[sneaton]

i had the same problem...nitrates wouldnt budge below 15-20...i started with reef biofuel but i didnt like having to shut the protein skimmer off for a few hours everyday,so i switched to npx pellets....the pellets have dropped my trates and phos to undetectable (in 4 days from starting) and ive been running them for 6 weeks with no ill effects....i personally think these are magical and they are the best 17 dollars ive spent in this hobby...the only down side is you have to feed more lol......:wildone:all my corals are growing like weeds and coloring up like a scene from Avatar.....

[SwiftysReef]

I keep them down with vodka and vinegar dosing. Took them down initially a couple of years ago with a diy sulfur denitrator.
Why do you use both vodka and vinegar, do they function differently or they do the same thing.

Bare with me guys with the novice questions but I don't want to mess this up.

[SwiftysReef]

i had the same problem...nitrates wouldnt budge below 15-20...i started with reef biofuel but i didnt like having to shut the protein skimmer off for a few hours everyday,so i switched to npx pellets....the pellets have dropped my trates and phos to undetectable (in 4 days from starting) and ive been running them for 6 weeks with no ill effects....i personally think these are magical and they are the best 17 dollars ive spent in this hobby...the only down side is you have to feed more lol......:wildone:all my corals are growing like weeds and coloring up like a scene from Avatar.....

What r the npx pellets and how do use them

[sneaton]

they are a carbon source ran in a reactor....no dosing just hook it up and watch your levels come down...you could get a reactor, pellets, and a feed pump for 70$...every 6-12 months you top them off

[sneaton]

two little fishes 150 is the reactor is use on my 75g

[SwiftysReef]

Yeah I have a phosban reactor. That sounds like a good idea to drop the levels, I hope it works for me. I think ill try that out if I ever get any money

[SwiftysReef]

Would it be possible to run the pellets and gac in the same reactor at the same time or would u say that is pushing it

[jcw]

Why do you use both vodka and vinegar, do they function differently or they do the same thing.

Bare with me guys with the novice questions but I don't want to mess this up.

people think that different bacteria are able to utilize different carbon sources more efficiently. providing them two options may avoid selecting one over the other.

the person that runs glassboxdesigns dosed v-s-v or vodka, sugar AND vinegar.

[sneaton]

start with about half the recommended dose...i started with 200ml of two little fishes npx pellets on my 75 gallon (a good amount for you to start with too) and had a bacteria bloom for a few days...it freaked me out having cloudy water,but i stuck it out for the 3 days it took to clear and its been 6 weeks with no water changes and spot on levels...nothing was affected by the bloom but you might want to put in a airstone while the water is cloudy to oxygenate the water(for your fish)...one major thing is too make sure you have a good skimmer (overrated for you tank) and point the reactor outlet tube in front of the skimmer intake,also use a pump large enough to make all of the pellets tumble..i use a mj1200


no gac with the pellets...i run gac in my filter sock though

[SwiftysReef]

Well that makes sense.jcw....sneaton would mj900 be suffice

[SwiftysReef]

I have a reef octopus 150 skimmer for a roughly 110 gal system is big enough or do I need bigger...it seems to be doing a good job I think

[bertoni]

We don't have much data on skimmer performance, but that skimmer gets good reviews. I wouldn't worry about it just yet, although I might do any sort of cleaning that's recommended, especially in the air injection path.

[Aquarist007]

Would it be possible to run the pellets and gac in the same reactor at the same time or would u say that is pushing it

the flow through the reactor should really be heaving the pellets or otherwise you get a build up of mulm(bacterial snot) in the reactor which eventually stops the flow. This flow could be restricted further by putting carbon in the reactor with the pellets.
Also the flow might be too much for carbon and pulverize it so it ends up in the display tank.

[SwiftysReef]

We don't have much data on skimmer performance, but that skimmer gets good reviews. I wouldn't worry about it just yet, although I might do any sort of cleaning that's recommended, especially in the air injection path.

Will do...its the little things such as this that is helpful that I would have over looked

[SwiftysReef]

the flow through the reactor should really be heaving the pellets or otherwise you get a build up of mulm(bacterial snot) in the reactor which eventually stops the flow. This flow could be restricted further by putting carbon in the reactor with the pellets.
Also the flow might be too much for carbon and pulverize it so it ends up in the display tank.

I figured maybe the pellets would reduce the flow enough for the gac. There is no need to push I was seeing if it would be plausible...thanks for the input.

Thanks to everyone who has posted, sincerely appreciated

[Glazner]

Do your research on the biopellets. Several of us have had bad experiences with them. Lost lot of zoas. Look into the cause of the hi nitrates

[SwiftysReef]

I appreciate it , definitely keep in mind.

[sneaton]

there are tlf reactor conversion kits for bio pellets...its basically screens you use instead of the sponges...the sponges will get clogged fast with bacteria ,so be sure to get the kit(like 2 bucks)...also when having a low nutrient system its best to keep you alk lower (between 7-8) cause it can burn your corals if its too high....and :wave:your skimmer should be fine,the mj900 should work also.....i would try to drop your nitrates as low as possible with water changes (10-20ppm) before you start(if you can),this way its not such a shock to your system(everything goes to 0 real fast)

[sneaton]

Do your research on the biopellets. Several of us have had bad experiences with them. Lost lot of zoas. Look into the cause of the hi nitrates

:confused:how long did you have your pellets online? just zoas? did you have the bloom? did they drop your levels?

[tmz]

[QUOTE=SwiftysReef;18901440]Why do you use both vodka and vinegar, do they function differently or they do the same thing

They do the same thing and function differently.They provide organic carbon which fuels heterotrophic bacteria that consume nitrate, phosphate ,oxygen, and the organic carbon. and via anaerobic activity convert some nitrate to N2

However, depending on the carbon source used different bacteria dominate creating different by products.

Different strains of heterotrophic bacteria dominate at different steps in the anaerobic disgestion proces ,a process with multiple steps and different bacteria at different steps.
Some of the the carbon sources we are already partially digested by bacteria Stated in simple terms , carbohydrates ( polymers, the pellets) are broken down by some bacteria to monomers( sugars: glucose, etc) , then others break things down(fermentation) further to ethanol( vodka) and then on to acetate( acetic acid/ vinegar) ad on to methane in nature. How much of this process actually occurs in a tank is in part related to the type of carbon dosed .

There is no evidence to suggest maintaining all of these strains of bacteria and /or dosing mixed carbon sources is helpful.

Some have reported trouble with sugar. Sugar has been a problem for some of my corals, leading to browning and recission, even at very lowe doses. Some studies suggest , execess glucose can contribute to morality in ceratin corals. So I stay away from sugar. Unfortunately the plastic pellets are polymers( carbohydrates ) so some converison to monomers ( sugars ) will likely occur with them.

I had a bit of patchy cyano bacteria when using ethanol (vodka) only. Following the adivice and apparent suceses of others I switched some of the vodka for vinegar . This worked . Presumably the vinegar( acetic acid) fueled bacteria able to be more competitive with or advantaged in some way by the acetate.vs.cyano Others use only vinegar successfully .

[SwiftysReef]

Thanks alot this thread has really pushing me in the right direction

[Aquarist007]

[B]

Some have reported trouble with sugar. Sugar has been a problem for some of my corals, leading to browning and recission, even at very lowe doses. Some studies suggest , execess glucose can contribute to morality in ceratin corals. So I stay away from sugar. Unfortunately the plastic pellets are polymers( carbohydrates ) so some converison to monomers ( sugars ) will likely occur with them.
.

Tom, are you suggesting that using the pellets may lead to coral recession.
The trend in our area is to continue to add more and more pellets and crank the flow through the reactor as much as possible. In light of what you might be suggesting this could be a problem with the corals

[tmz]

Hi,
I have not used the pellets, so I can't cite any personal experience with them .I've read all the threads on them . Some are doing well with them;some not. I was going to try them because I liked the idea of bacterial activity contained to the reactor. Once I realized that the bacterial activity and by products flow into the water column with the pellets and is not localized to the reactor as evidenced by bacterial blooms, I decided to stick with the ethanol and acetic acid and avoid adding polymers( carbohydrates) and the potential for monomers.

I also find direct dosing easy to control precisely; I know exactly how much I add each day and at least I know corals can use acetate.

How are the folks using them doing with them in your area after a period of time? Any browning, receding. losses? I'm not saying not to use them ,just noting why I don't prefer them. They may be fine in certain tanks and applications but I'll stick with what's working well for me.
BTW ,anecdotally, I've been dosing vodka and vinegar for just about 2 and a half years now.The mixed reef aquariums are doing very well, especially the sps and zoanthus .

For whatever reason, perhaps related to upsetting the symbiont bacteria in certain corals ,sugars have caused problems for me and for others and as noted earlier studies provided by Cliff, Highland Reefer show some increased mortality when glucose is high.

[SwiftysReef]

I was going to start dosing vodka at .4ml, if I wanted to add vinegar do I need to lower this dosage and what dosage should they both be. My tank is established and a under estimated water capacity

[Aquarist007]

Hi,
I have not used the pellets, so I can't cite any personal experience with them .I've read all the threads on them . Some are doing well with them;some not. I was going to try them because I liked the idea of bacterial activity contained to the reactor. Once I realized that the bacterial activity and by products flow into the water column with the pellets and is not localized to the reactor as evidenced by bacterial blooms, I decided to stick with the ethanol and acetic acid and avoid adding polymers( carbohydrates) and the potential for monomers.

I also find direct dosing easy to control precisely; I know exactly how much I add each day and at least I know corals can use acetate.

How are the folks using them doing with them in your area after a period of time? Any browning, receding. losses? I'm not saying not to use them ,just noting why I don't prefer them. They may be fine in certain tanks and applications but I'll stick with what's working well for me.
BTW ,anecdotally, I've been dosing vodka and vinegar for just about 2 and a half years now.The mixed reef aquariums are doing very well, especially the sps and zoanthus .

For whatever reason, perhaps related to upsetting the symbiont bacteria in certain corals ,sugars have caused problems for me and for others and as noted earlier studies provided by Cliff, Highland Reefer show some increased mortality when glucose is high.

Folks in our area are having great success with the pellets. I have 10 client systems on them right now including my own. Out of the 10 systems, two had really problems with bryopsis break outs. That was controlled by adding a phosban reactor, although it took a few months to get a handle on.

I have seen no damage to corals, sps, lps or softies. Rather just the opposite, good growth and great feeder extensions especially in open brains and goniporia.

That said the np pellet use is very young for this area, 7 or 8 months so I especially appreciate your input/cautions on their use.
I am hopful that browning and receding is not going to occur as I would hate to go back and tell all those clients that the np pellets were causing them after I had sold them on it