Help! My fish are dying!

[Coppertop412]

Ok, I have a 100 gallon tank, that's been set up for about 6 months or so. I got ich so I moved all the fish to a 50 gallon hypo salinity quarantine tank, with a canister filter and an air stone. All has been going well until tonight. They have been in hypo (1.009) for almost a month, I have been doing 10 gallon (20%) water changes weekly, until this week. (I went camping and skipped a week). I came home from work tonight to find the 4 remaining fish (a foxface, coral beauty, and 2 fire fish) all struggling to stay upright. I lost a chromis, and a blenny earlier. I have been using AmQuel Plus to fight ammonia and nitrite/nitrate.
I tested the water and it showed .5ppm ammonia, and a little over 20 nitrate. I did about a 15 gallon water change, but the fish still look the same.
What should I do? Feeling real new right now!

[shifty51008]

IMO I would do another 10-20 gal. water change to get that ammonia level down even farther. also add an extra power head to the tank tward the top to help with adding more O2.

how are you checking the sg. of the water?

[Coppertop412]

I added a powerhead for more surface agitation, and will do another water change when I get up, and another when I get home from work. Right now I only have a 15 gallon RO holding tank.
Thanks for your quick response.

[crvz]

I imagine it's an issue with the ammonia. I would continue to dilute it with as many water changes as you're capable of.

[snorvich]

I agree with crvz. But it is critical to measure SG accurately as the range of effectiveness is small. And you best be using a calibrated refractometer.

[lagatbezan]

Also check your PH since it can be off when doing hypo.

[MrTuskfish]

I agree with the ammonia poisoning posts. Did you have someone monitor SG when you were gone, or have an ATO? If not, your SG would raise well above 1.009 because of evaporation. However, this wouldn't bother the fish, but could mean you have to start hypo time all over. BTW, nitrates at a level reached in a QT will not harm fish, don't even bother testing it.

[Coppertop412]

I hadn't thought to check PH. It was a little low (7.1, my display runs 7.9). My QT is a 50 gallon, with a glass top and only a little flourescent light. I don't even get a half gallon evaporation in a week.
My refractometer is calibratable, I check it from time to time with RO/DI water, but I don't have any calibration fluid (at a specific salinity).
I am doing another water change now, and might even up my frequency to twice a week here on out. When I got up today they all look healthy. They are swimming normal and look healthy!
Thank you all for your responses.

[Coppertop412]

So today they are having problems again, and both my fire fish died. I had 3 when they went into QT, but 1 went missing. Maybe I should look a little harder for him. I don't think he could have been sucked through the strainer and into the canister filter, but my only thought is that he is rotting somewhere, causing excessive ammonia. I didn't have time to test the water before work, but did a quick water change (10 gallons). I put more Amquel+ in last night, I wonder if this isn't doing more harm than good? If I can't figure out what's causing this, it's just going to keep happening! :headwally:
I will continue doing 10 gallon changes twice a week. I can't see this not being enough! And I will test everything tonight when I get home.

[snorvich]

I agree with the ammonia poisoning posts. Did you have someone monitor SG when you were gone, or have an ATO? If not, your SG would raise well above 1.009 because of evaporation. However, this wouldn't bother the fish, but could mean you have to start hypo time all over. BTW, nitrates at a level reached in a QT will not harm fish, don't even bother testing it.

Agree. And the refractometer better be properly calibrated. Hypo requires very accurate measurement.

[snorvich]

My refractometer is calibratable, I check it from time to time with RO/DI water, but I don't have any calibration fluid (at a specific salinity).


Then you had best get some pinpoint solution. RO is NOT how to calibrate a refractometer.

[chasedasea]

Are you still doing the hypo?
Did you get the pH up?
Why are you fighting ammonia?
Are you running carbon in the canister?
Is it a bare bottom qt or do you have a bunch of stuff in there?
Are you beginning to slowly bring the salinity back up?
Have you found the missing fish?
Sorry so many questions.
Personally I have never used Amquel+ and IMO you shouldn't need it if you are doing major water changes.
Have you tested your source water before adding to the tank?
Are they still showing signs of ich?

[Coppertop412]

snorvich, thanks. I will see if my local reef store has pinpoint solution (they should).

[Coppertop412]

Are you still doing the hypo?
Did you get the pH up?
Why are you fighting ammonia?
Are you running carbon in the canister?
Is it a bare bottom qt or do you have a bunch of stuff in there?
Are you beginning to slowly bring the salinity back up?
Have you found the missing fish?
Sorry so many questions.
Personally I have never used Amquel+ and IMO you shouldn't need it if you are doing major water changes.
Have you tested your source water before adding to the tank?
Are they still showing signs of ich?

I do still have them in hypo, until Friday. That will be 4 weeks.
I have decided (after doing some reading) not to try chasing Ph.
I set up the QT rather quickly when I lost a new tang to ICH, and didn't cycle it first. Now I'm getting ammonia in my QT.
Now that I think about it, I'm not sure if I do have carbon in the canister, I'll have to check, and put some in there if not!
The QT is bare bottom, only a few PVC fittings.
I will start bringing the salinity back up on Friday.
I haven't had a chance to search harder for the missing fish. It just occured to me after I got to work that he may be rotting in the canister.
Amquel is supposed to nuetralize ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. I figured it couldn't hurt, since I didn't fully cycle my QT tank first.
I haven't tested my new salt water, if thats what you're asking. I use RO/DI water and oceanic salt. I started mixing oceanic 50/50 with coralife because my Ca and Mg readings were way high (from the salt mix). For the QT I have mainly been using just the oceanic, because it disolves quickly in emergency situations!
And finally, no they are not showing signs of ICH. In fact the 2 I have left (coral beauty and foxface) have not shown signs since i put them in QT.

[Coppertop412]

Well, I found the problem, not sure I have a solution yet. I came home from working (after telling chasedasea I wasn't going to chase my Ph). My coral beauty is dead, stuck to the wave maker. The foxface was on the bottom, just kind of twitching. I tested my ammonia, barely any.... tested my Ph.... (drumroll) 6.0! So now that I'm down to 1 fish, I'm setting up the 10 as a QT. This will mean less water to do a major water change, but I will also have to watch it even closer.
So any guesses as to how it got all the way to 6.0? It is in hypo, and in a closed up room. That's the only contributors I can think of.
My new water is only 7.2!
I scooped the foxface up in a specimin container and am now basically aclimatizing him to the new QT water.

[Coppertop412]

Oh yeah, I was not running carbon in the canister! I am now!
The foxface already looks better, he is at least upright!

[crvz]

how are you testing pH? A closed up room with inadequate circulation can certainly drive up ambient CO2 levels to the point of depleting pH in an aquarium, but a value of 6.0 seems excessively low. I would suspect there to be another culprit (possibly a chemical you've been adding, such as the amquel, but I don't have any experience with that product to give you conclusive advice).

[chasedasea]

FME no scientific understanding backing it, I always had to closely monitor and add pH buffers when I ran my freshwater systems. In my reef systems I have never had to fuss with or add buffers so I would say it is extremely important to fuss with the pH during hypo as it will inevitably drop over time.

I found a few people in different blogs who experienced pH lowering while using amquel+. Most of them were not doing water changes while using it though. A few people also stated that amquel+ messes with pH testing results. I didn't find any hardcore proof or studies but figured I would pass it along just in case you want to research it further.

I understand that bringing the SG up slowly is even more important than bringing it down so don't be afraid to take your time with it.

Not gonna be popular but: My unwanted advice is to use a different method next time you need to treat ich. I know there are a lot of resources out there saying how great hypo is and those opinions are made under the best of circumstances and haven't been proved on every fish species. Yes I know the whole lower salinity less work for the fish and all that scientific stuff backing the idea. During my research of hypo I found a lot of research that showed the lack of research for the fish we have in our tanks. One in particular proved that it does indeed cause stress maybe not excessive for the certain species they were testing but it was observed and even more so for the fish with ich. I can share the few links/studies I found via PM if anyone is interested.

Good luck!! I hope he makes it cause they are a great fish.

[James404]

If you are using Amquel or Prime, your ammonia test was possibly inaccurate. Many test kits will still show readings of ammonia when using these products.

[chasedasea]

If you are using Amquel or Prime, your ammonia test was possibly inaccurate. Many test kits will still show readings of ammonia when using these products.

If using it to lower ammonia that kinda seems like a problem, lol.

[MrTuskfish]

If using it to lower ammonia that kinda seems like a problem, lol.
I know many great hobbyists prefer hypo; not intending to be critical, but this thread is a great example of why I don't.
I have a feeling the tank was never really cycled, or at least, didn't have the bacteria to handle this many fish. I've posted this many times, here's a fool-proof way to cycle a QT/HT, in a hurry:

"In regards to Qt cycling; I've done this for years. Get a HOB filter; I really like Aqua-Clear, they have a big sponge and last forever. Don't use the carbon or ceramic noodles that come with the filter. Also, have some extra sponges on hand, they're cheap. Keep a sponge in the flow somewhere in your DT. When you need a QT or HT, just use the sponge that has been in your main system in your QT filter---the QT will be instantly cycled. When done, toss the sponge and keep a new one ready in your main system.
BTW, Cupramine copper, used in a QT,will not destroy a bio-filter."

[James404]

If using it to lower ammonia that kinda seems like a problem, lol.

Yes it could be, I have heard that the Seachem ammonia detectors are able to accurately give readings when using prime or amquel.

Personally I had all my fish in QT for 8 weeks (4 with hypo), with no biofilter and using amquel and prime, didn't lose one. I did 20% water changes every 2 days and every other day I dosed amquel, when I ran out of that I started using prime. I liked the prime a little better since it took less and it didnt smell as bad LOL. Amquel smells nasty, especially when it gets on your hands.

[chasedasea]

Yes it could be, I have heard that the Seachem ammonia detectors are able to accurately give readings when using prime or amquel.

Personally I had all my fish in QT for 8 weeks (4 with hypo), with no biofilter and using amquel and prime, didn't lose one. I did 20% water changes every 2 days and every other day I dosed amquel, when I ran out of that I started using prime. I liked the prime a little better since it took less and it didnt smell as bad LOL. Amquel smells nasty, especially when it gets on your hands.

I think there is a host of different things going on in the OP's qt. For information sake did you have any issues with pH control when you ran your hypo treatment?

[James404]

Not that I know of but I really didnt check it. I had heard PH could be a problem when running hypo, so initially the first few days I added some sodium carbonate but stopped after that.

[Mzulu]

I think on this site I read that Hypo has to be at 1.009 and should not change for the duration of the treatment. The reason was that at 1.010 ick can live and 1.008 can harm the fish. I will try to find the post for you.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1500214

[lagatbezan]

from my own (unsuccessful) experience with hypo, it needs to be done at exactly 1.009 with a correctly calibrated refractometer and the ph has to be closely monitored in oreder for it to be successful. This gets challenging with evaporation and not using a ATO. I personally started using cupramine (copper) to treat/prevent ich in a qt which for me is a little easier to use/monitor.

[Angel*Fish]

Then you had best get some pinpoint solution. RO is NOT how to calibrate a refractometer.I couldn't agree more. If your salinity is too low it will kill these fish. What is your ammonia level? If you have one, that's too high. Ignoring a hypo tank while you go off on vacation sounds like a kind of a bizarre thing to do. Hypo is serious hands on business.

[Coppertop412]

how are you testing pH? A closed up room with inadequate circulation can certainly drive up ambient CO2 levels to the point of depleting pH in an aquarium, but a value of 6.0 seems excessively low. I would suspect there to be another culprit (possibly a chemical you've been adding, such as the amquel, but I don't have any experience with that product to give you conclusive advice).

I have a cheap, non-calibratable digital pH meter. I haven't added anything but salt water and the Amquel until now.

[Coppertop412]

FME no scientific understanding backing it, I always had to closely monitor and add pH buffers when I ran my freshwater systems. In my reef systems I have never had to fuss with or add buffers so I would say it is extremely important to fuss with the pH during hypo as it will inevitably drop over time.

I found a few people in different blogs who experienced pH lowering while using amquel+. Most of them were not doing water changes while using it though. A few people also stated that amquel+ messes with pH testing results. I didn't find any hardcore proof or studies but figured I would pass it along just in case you want to research it further.

I understand that bringing the SG up slowly is even more important than bringing it down so don't be afraid to take your time with it.

Not gonna be popular but: My unwanted advice is to use a different method next time you need to treat ich. I know there are a lot of resources out there saying how great hypo is and those opinions are made under the best of circumstances and haven't been proved on every fish species. Yes I know the whole lower salinity less work for the fish and all that scientific stuff backing the idea. During my research of hypo I found a lot of research that showed the lack of research for the fish we have in our tanks. One in particular proved that it does indeed cause stress maybe not excessive for the certain species they were testing but it was observed and even more so for the fish with ich. I can share the few links/studies I found via PM if anyone is interested.

Good luck!! I hope he makes it cause they are a great fish.

This will probably be the last time I use hypo. Any treatment (and moving the fish from their home - DT) causes stress. Stress is not whats killing them though!
I have started bringing the salinity up slowly, today I did a 2 gallon change at 1.015, to bring it up to 1.011. The new water I made up last night (when I moved him to the 10 gallon) was 1.010, the 50 gallon was 1.009. I still have 4 more weeks running fallow, so I am in no rush to bring the salinity up fast, I think my main concern now is the pH.
Oh, and I wouldn't be posting this on here if I only wanted to read 'popular' advice. No worries, I apreciate your input!

[Coppertop412]

If you are using Amquel or Prime, your ammonia test was possibly inaccurate. Many test kits will still show readings of ammonia when using these products.

I showed ammonia, so I used it. If I re-tested and had none, but the test showed I did... I dosed again (2 days later) for no reason. Kind of a better safe than sorry on that, but the more I add... the lower my O2... higher the CO2... lower the pH.

[Coppertop412]

from my own (unsuccessful) experience with hypo, it needs to be done at exactly 1.009 with a correctly calibrated refractometer and the ph has to be closely monitored in oreder for it to be successful. This gets challenging with evaporation and not using a ATO. I personally started using cupramine (copper) to treat/prevent ich in a qt which for me is a little easier to use/monitor.

I think this will be my only (also unsuccessful) experience with it! In all my reading prior to starting this pH drop was barely mentioned. That is the one thing I needed to keep an eye on as much as the salinity. I didn't have much evaporation to top off with a glass top and only a flourescent light on top. I think I'm gonna get some cupramine to have on hand to use from here on out.

[Coppertop412]

I couldn't agree more. If your salinity is too low it will kill these fish. What is your ammonia level? If you have one, that's too high. Ignoring a hypo tank while you go off on vacation sounds like a kind of a bizarre thing to do. Hypo is serious hands on business.

I wasn't worried about the salinity dropping while I was gone. I have heard of many people that simply zero out their refractometer with RO/DI and call it good. I took a water sample to the local reef store and he had the same reading I did.
I did have ammonia, that's why I started using the amquel. (that lowers O2, raising CO2, and lowers pH).
When I said I skipped a water change to go camping, I skipped my weekly 20% change. I checked the water on Monday morning before I left, and again on Tuesday night when I got back. So it's not like I ignored it and took off for a week.

[Coppertop412]

Well, the saga is over. My foxface died. I got some kalkwasser and am getting that figured out. I will let the QT tank finish cycling, then start re-stocking a couple at a time. The only bad thing about doing it this way is four weeks in QT means 1 or 2 fish per month. It will be 6 months before I'm back to where I was! (Unless I set the 50 back up).

[Coppertop412]

Then you had best get some pinpoint solution. RO is NOT how to calibrate a refractometer.

No one in town has any pin point solution for salinity! I'll have to order some from online.