Tank devastated by paly toxins (and my stupidity) [Archive]

scolley

07/09/2011, 04:47 PM

I’ve had my reef a little over two years now. But my mistake a couple of weeks ago was a true newbie mistake. So I’m posting on this forum so people can learn from my mistake.

Here’s my little reef two weeks and a day ago.
http://www.colley.org/images/IMG_1574_edited-3.jpg

And here it is one day later.

http://www.colley.org/images/IMG_1661_edited-1.jpg

It all started because wanted to remove a a weed-like brown paly that was beginning to take over my tank. You can see it near the top left. 3 or 4 polyps quickly became a monster coral that smothered many nice corals and was spreading on to other rocks. It had to go. It’s the HOW of making it go that did so much damage to my tank.

One night I took out the rock that the paly was on, scraped and cut off all of the paly that I could, rinsed the rock, and put it back in the tank. But when I did, not only did I find that I had not gotten quite all of the paly, but some of that nasty “paly juice” went back in the tank with it! It didn’t look like that much though. I’ve seen more crap floating around when I p*ssed off a Green Slimer or touched the underside of a monti cap. So I was truly taken by surprise when I saw my tank the next morning. Algal bloom and death everywhere.

Overnight deaths included:

All birdsnest SPS
All Montipora and monti cap
All trumpets
All brittle stars
All snails
All peppermint shrimp
All dendros
My only chalice
Most asterina stars
Some porcelain crabs
Longspine urchin
And apparently all pods and bristleworms (that I can see)

Slow deaths – taking a few days – included:

Most acans
Most heads of my hammer and frogspawn

And damage – but apparently recoverable - was done to:

The remaining acans
Serpent star
Duncans
Blastos
Open brain
A chalice-like coral, Lithophyllon sp.
A superman mushroom

Thankfully a few things seemed unaffected:

Fish
Hermits
Zoas
Blood Red, Cleaner and Sexy shrimp
Zoas
Ricordia
Trach
GSP
Small leather
Maxima clam
And (amazingly!) a single neon green SPS

Now it’s quite clear to me that I should have just pulled that rock with the palys on it, and left it out. It will take me 18-24 months to rebuild from the damage done due to my foolishness caused by my not wanting to lose a nice live rock.

I’m passing that little tidbit along to the community. Hopefully documenting the damage injured palys can do, and possibly helping some of you avoid my mistake.

Happy Reefing. :)

Crazy fish eye

07/09/2011, 04:55 PM

Man that sucks. Hope you can rebuild better than before. Was a nice tank.

Gary Majchrzak

07/09/2011, 05:04 PM

your aquarium was nice but it will be nicer after this!

Thanks for sharing this information.

SeabassSA

07/09/2011, 05:08 PM

Sh$t man, your tank was looking nice and mature, sorry about that, makes my worried about just what the possibilities are about what can go wrong with a tank. Best of luck getting it back up and in pristine condition. You can do it. Keep me posted on the progress.

iamwrasseman

07/09/2011, 05:13 PM

wow , that suks man thanks for sharing .

Sheol

07/09/2011, 05:20 PM

Brings back many BAD memories of my 36 Reef's meltdown last year (January 2010), because I got complacent after 5 years and ignored a warning sign. A heater malfunction took 90% of my corals and 50% of my fish.
I hate tank crashes!
Rebuild it, BETTER, seems the only answer..

Regards,
Matthew

scolley

07/09/2011, 06:09 PM

Thanks very much folks for the kind words. Really. :)

Yet my key motivation for sharing and documenting was to help others not screw up as I did. I should post some later pics, just so you can see the skeletons of what had been some really nice corals. Maybe some before/after just for effect. It's ugly.

When it happened I was gut sick. I did do a 95% water change as quickly as possible, along with dramatically increasing the volume of fresh carbon in my sump to get the toxins out. That all happened within 18 hours of the offending event. But many things kept on a slow progress to death.

It was days before I could bring myself to really look at my tank - to take stock of how bad it really was. However, there IS a bright side to this...

I went whole hog into this little tank as my first reef learning experience, before I upgraded my 180g to reef later. So I threw a little of everything into this tank, because I wanted to try it all. Just for the experience before the upgrade.

But then my ability to upgrade the 180 fell through. My wife loves it the way it is now, and won't let me change it. So I found my self stuck with my little "training wheels" tank long term. And due to the learning experience that it was, it was not laid out as well as could be. And the corals were not particularly compatible.

So this is my chance - as Sheol said - to rebuild BETTER. And I will. Count on it. ;)

But please do heed my lesson, and DO NOT put injured palys in your tank. If you have to remove them... remove them AND the rock work that they occupy. Or better yet, maybe not mess with palys at all.

JoeRonda

07/09/2011, 06:22 PM

That is crazy because I did the same thing! I had a brown button polyp that was getting way too space hungry and took out the rock cut off all of it only to put the rock back in the tank and find a slime coming off where I did the "surgery". I even tied the button colony to a piece of rubble rock after I cut it off of the big rock. I can't believe my tank didn't experience any ill effects from the paly toxin. I wonder what saved my tank?

sjwitt

07/10/2011, 08:22 AM

Steve,
VERY sorry for your loss... that is heartbreaking but I'm glad you see this as an opportunity. Thank you for the posting, this is valuable information. Also, I've read that Paly toxins are bad news for PEOPLE to the point of some going to the ER. So, added advise ... If you're going to mess with these coral BE CAREFUL and wear gloves.

scolley

07/10/2011, 09:19 AM

Thanks. And I WAS wearing very thick gloves (the big up to the shoulder variety!), and eye protection. Great point. I knew it could be very nasty stuff. But clearly did not extend that same level of caution to my tank.

Honestly I thought there was some value in classifying the effects this had too. That's why I broke it out as I did. In a morbid why, some of effects were fascinating:

Why did I have one SPS (in the middle of the others) that remained unscathed?
How did my serpent star survive when it killed hundreds of brittles? And that is a SAD looking star. On each leg about two thirds of the legs are gone, as if the thinner portions of the legs were eaten up. Strange. And sad to see.
Why did most of acans go into massive, fast RTN, where one or to others started to RTN (on the side water flow was coming from), and then stop? Maybe the ones in more flow took it worse.
Clearly stony corals too the worst of it. Softies less so, with things like palys (zoas) not caring at all.

The big PITA in the aftermath is stabilizing the tank. With all that death and decay in the tank, I've got algae in abundance where previously I had none. I run an alge turf scrubber that would normally take care of that. But in my panic to drain and replace the bad water I got salt water on it and toasted the LED array that runs it. It's rebuilt now, but not before I got algae everywhere.

I made the decision to do normal, daily small water changes, and continue to run abundant carbon. It's too expensive to do many separate water changes as things rot. So I deliberately let things rot in the tank for two weeks. Today's just over two week's later. I've got a full tank's worth of new water ready to go. So I'll rip out all the dead stuff that I can and replace a good 95% of the water. And I've got more pods and mini-brittle stars coming in next week.

That should help get the tank started on the road to recovery. :)

Dono

07/10/2011, 09:26 AM

Do you run a carbon reactor or anything of the sort? If I do any work on my softies in my tank, I take a Koralia 3 I have laying around here and give the coral a quick blow toards my overflow, then my carbon reactor does a pretty good job with the rest.

scolley

07/10/2011, 09:56 AM

Do you run a carbon reactor or anything of the sort?Great question... and likely a part of my problem.

I do not run a carbon reactor. I do keep a small amount in my sump in bags, and I suspect it's why I've been able to keep a small amount of softies in with SPS. But unlike a reactor, it will not pull things out of the water quickly.

And possibly worse, I have a pretty light skimmer; a Tunze 9002. I've been really happy with it because it does not over skim. Prior to this event I had a nice diverse population of critters in this tank, and I suspected the 9002's relatively mild skimming helped. But it was the last thing I needed when I had a bunch of crap in my tank.

And finally, I made another terrible mistake. I had been trying to boost my pod population - possibly to get a mandarin. So I was doing nightly feedings of phyto and zooplankton. And to keep that in the water column, my skimmer turns off for six hours every night. So when I put the nasty rock back in the tank, I was not running my skimmer at all. Or for the next 3-4 hours.

So I guess in retrospect, this might not have so bad for some people. A carbon reactor and heavy skimming might help. But after what I've seen... I honestly would think twice before I put a rock with injured paly juice back in my tank.

Sport507

07/10/2011, 10:15 AM

So sorry, that is a beautiful tank. I just posted a Poll in this forum on Diatom filters. This is a prime example where having one would have most likely save it without even doing a water change.

rjinct

07/10/2011, 12:36 PM

Steve, extremely saddened to hear about this! I know that your planning, attention to detail, and experience from this will cause version 2.0 of your tank to be better than ever!

RJ

scolley

07/10/2011, 01:48 PM

This is a prime example where having one would have most likely save it without even doing a water change.Thanks Sport! That's an interesting assertion. IMO you'd have to have massive turnover on that filter. Would be a good thing to know... but I would not volunteer to try it.

Steve, extremely saddened to hear about this! I know that your planning, attention to detail, and experience from this will cause version 2.0 of your tank to be better than ever!

RJThanks RJ. Practice makes perfect! ;)

TellyFish

07/10/2011, 01:54 PM

Would Kalk paste kill them safely, or same problem?

Sorry to hear about your losses, I am sure it will be even more beautiful in a short time.

scolley

07/10/2011, 02:06 PM

Would Kalk paste kill them safely, or same problem?

Sorry to hear about your losses, I am sure it will be even more beautiful in a short time.Thanks. I considered that. Also considered one of those electrical Aptasia zappers.

But by the time I decided that I had no choice but to take action, there had to be at way more that a hundred polyps, and growing fast. So I figured any method of killing a few polyps at a time had to be killing at least enough so that I was killing more polyps than new ones growing. I figured that would have to be AT LEAST 5-6 polyps a day.

And my fear about that was that stretched out over a long period of time, that would put too much stress on the tank. Not to mention all the rotting flesh in the tank.

Maybe that was the wrong decision. But those were my reasons. If someone else knows - from experience - that it was a bad call, please speak up. It will only help the community.

Sport507

07/10/2011, 02:16 PM

My deepest apologies Scolley.

I didn’t mean to add insult to injury. Please forgive that not thinking, dumb comment. I’m here to support not insult or harm. Again I’m sorry!

Don’t know what else to say.

ReefPharmer

07/10/2011, 03:23 PM

I am sorry for your losses. This should be a lesson to all of us. How do you recommend people deal w/ a similar situation? just take the rock out and dry it for a few days? Do the pallies release toxins when they are drying up? Do you wash the rocks afterwards?

scolley

07/10/2011, 03:27 PM

My deepest apologies Scolley.No need for that friend! No harm - no foul!

The whole point of posting a failure is to help the community learn from the mistake. And some of that will hopefully be in good suggestions on how that failure might have been avoided. Or not. But worth discussion.

So PLEASE think nothing of it! Your suggestion was/is well worth discussion. :)

Gary Majchrzak

07/10/2011, 03:41 PM

Why did I have one SPS (in the middle of the others) that remained unscathed?which SPS remained unscathed- the Lithophyllon?

Sport507

07/10/2011, 03:47 PM

Thank you Steve.

To answer what appeared to be a question of sorts. The turnover on that filter is about 250-300 GPH depending on the charge of powder you use.

gtphale

07/10/2011, 04:39 PM

wow that really sucks glad to hear your going to be able to rebuild it

NatureNerd

07/10/2011, 04:39 PM

Sorry for the losses. I struggled with the same "weed" for years. I really hate these guys. I tried to scrape them off rocks, always being super careful not to get the toxins on me. I never realized the risk I was exposing my tank to. Thanks for sharing the lesson.

As a side note... In the end, I threw away the rock that originally had the paly's on it, because they kept growing back.

I'm sure your tank will return to better than it was.

NatureNerd

07/10/2011, 04:42 PM

Would Kalk paste kill them safely, or same problem?

I was told that Kalk paste would not work as they would release their toxins as the kalk burns them and later as they die. This is not personal experience but what a trusted source from a LFS told me.

scolley

07/10/2011, 05:29 PM

which SPS remained unscathed- the Lithophyllon?You know... I never really thought about the Lithophyollon as an SPS. But I guess it is. So there were TWO sps that did ok. The lithophyollon, which looked a bit pale and burned, but was fine in a day or two. But the other previously unnamed SPS was the little green one in the pic below above the Bird Nests (1 day before the aweful event). I'm afraid it's a frag given to me fairly recently, and I don't know what it is. But it's fine today. All the other SPS (except the Lithophyollon) got ripped out today.

BTW - that's a pretty good shot of the offending paly too. :(
http://www.colley.org/images/IMG_1630_edited-2.jpg

The turnover on that filter is about 250-300 GPH depending on the charge of powder you use.On a 29g DT, I'm sure that would have helped a LOT. The only question I suppose... it how much.

wow that really sucks glad to hear your going to be able to rebuild itThanks. Rebuild will be fun. :thumbsup:

I tried to scrape them off rocks, always being super careful not to get the toxins on me. I never realized the risk I was exposing my tank to. Thanks for sharing the lesson.

As a side note... In the end, I threw away the rock that originally had the paly's on it, because they kept growing back.

I'm sure your tank will return to better than it was.I'm not sure why experiences vary. It seems a reasonable assumption that all palys are not created equally toxic. And maybe I lost that coin toss. Or maybe my cutting off so many left more toxic goo than happens with cutting off a few as you mentioned. Seems to stand to reason.

Did you cut them off in - or out of - your tank?

I was told that Kalk paste would not work as they would release their toxins as the kalk burns them and later as they die. This is not personal experience but what a trusted source from a LFS told me.That's what I was afraid of. I figured if they were filled with bad stuff, it didn't matter much how I killed them... just that killing them in my tank was bad.

NatureNerd

07/10/2011, 06:27 PM

[QUOTE=scolley;/

I'm not sure why experiences vary. It seems a reasonable assumption that all palys are not created equally toxic. And maybe I lost that coin toss. Or maybe my cutting off so many left more toxic goo than happens with cutting off a few as you mentioned. Seems to stand to reason.

Did you cut them off in - or out of - your tank?

[/QUOTE]

I cut them off outside the tank and then used water from my last water change to rinse off the rock. I dipped the rock in a bucket of the old water and swished it around for a few seconds. I think I just got lucky or mine were not as toxic. Mine kept coming back so I got rid of the rock even though it was the largest in my tank.

You might have saved others from disaster. Thanks.

scolley

07/16/2011, 01:54 PM

I think I just got lucky or mine were not as toxic.I'm assuming that is what the issue is. You'd like to think that if all palys were this toxic, it would be common knowledge to not do what I did. So I suspect it's just a roll of the dice with paly toxicity, and it was not my lucky day.

Also BIG update to my OP regarding what was, and was not killed by my toxic paly event.

I did a vigorous essay of my tanks inhabitants, and made the MISTAKE of assuming that any change I had not previously noticed was due to the paly toxin. That assumption appears to be wrong. Now some things were very obvious, like the death of corals. No mistaking that. But others were less obvious. Specifically my sea stars.

My serpent star hides, and is rarely seen. So when I saw it's pitiful stumps of arms after the event, I assumed a causal relationship. Bad assumption. I've got (until a few hours ago) a Coral Beauty that I acquired a couple of months ago. I've not seen it nip any corals or my clam. But last week I saw it aggressively nip the raw tip of one of the sea star's tentacles. Clearly the d*mn think was eating starfish legs! Now, it may have been nibbling on a raw wound caused by the toxic event. But more likely - it was eating the poor thing's legs. I rarely see it, so I've got no way of knowing.

Which brings me to my mini brittle stars, all of which appear to be gone. So maybe the Coral Beauty decimated that population too. They really come out primarily at night, so its been weeks since I would have observed any. Again, I can't say for certain that the paly toxin did them in. I suspect it was the Coral Beauty - which BTW - now has a new home.

Watch out for nasty palys!

Happy Reefing. :)

Gangous

07/16/2011, 02:03 PM

I've cut zoas/paly and just put right back in tank r u sure that's what wiped ur tank out also have a reefing buddy that uses a toothbrush to brush away zoas when they grow where he doesn't want them

Jeremy Blaze

07/16/2011, 02:12 PM

Thanks for sharing, sorry for your losses. Can;t wait to see the replacement tough!

scolley

07/16/2011, 02:37 PM

... r u sure that's what wiped ur tank...Causality is difficult to establish outside of a rigorous, experiment/control setting. So I cannot say for sure. But here's what I can say...

I've fragged plenty of zoas, and some palys too, but I don't believe that just because it's safe sometimes, that it's safe every time.
Zoas aren't palys. Palys are known to be generally more toxic
Some palys are believed more toxic than others
My tank has been UBER stable. Happy to give you the details, but it is automated and stable in the extreme. Even down to tiny automated water changes every day
The two pictures in my OP were barely 24 hours apart. When the lights went out, it looked like the 1st pic. When they came back on, it looked like the 2nd.
The ONLY thing that I did to the tank between those two times is the paly cleaning I described.
Of the corals where only SOME of them died, like my acans, the higher they were in the water column, the more lethal the event was. My acans on the bottom are either fine or recovering well.
My Echotech MP10 is positioned to provide high flow high in the water column, and far less flow below. So the toxicity appears to have been flow related.
I saw the ooze coming off the rock when I put it back. That rock happens to be in the upper, higher flow regions of the tank.

Is all that proof? Not ironclad. But it's good enough for me. A quick Google of Occam's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor) will explain.

scolley

07/16/2011, 02:38 PM

Thanks for sharing, sorry for your losses. Can;t wait to see the replacement tough!Thanks! This really does give me a chance to punch the "reset" button. Which I would have never had the heart to do otherwise.

It will be fun! ;)

papagimp

07/16/2011, 03:17 PM

So I suspect it's just a roll of the dice with paly toxicity, and it was not my lucky day.

this has always been my impression of this particular issue and so many aspects of this hobby can be veiwed as a random roll of the die. So sorry to hear about all this and look forward to seeing more pictures of this beautiful tank.

tyler91913

07/16/2011, 08:58 PM

Steve--I was just skimming through the newbie forums and saw this post. First of all, I'm very sorry for your losses! Second, this is almost like divine intervention, since I've been contemplating an attack on a colony of brown polyps 120 strong. They're palys or buttons (is there a difference?), and taking up prime real estate. As you know, I've recently acquired my setup from somebody who was a little laissez faire about it, and one of the jobs on my to-do list was to nix some of these weeds. Well, it looks like I'll just be getting rid of the whole rock, rather than try to scrape them off, which was my original plan. I wasn't even worried about trying the scraping method, since I'm sure I've seen it recommended. Man, I'm glad I stumbled across this first. But at the same time, I'm very sorry for your loss. Hopefully see you next weekend at the meeting, Tyler

scolley

07/16/2011, 09:10 PM

Tyler - at the risk of being overly philosophical about this...

First - Thanks for your kind post.

Second - Pay it forward. And I'm not talking about pedantic posting of every time you get a spot of nuisance algae. I'm talking about honest (if humbling) posts of significant events in your tank that appear to be out of the ordinary.

Ultimately we'll have to leave it to the community to decide if our conclusions are correct. But by posting (with accurate and honest documentation) we'll have served the community that supports us by contributing our own key observations.

Good luck with your palys! Hope to meet with you soon!

PS - Glad to see you were cruising here... GREAT place to learn. And there is OH SO MUCH to learn.

fishinchick

07/16/2011, 10:06 PM

I had a similar experience. I rinsed the rock really really well though. It still affected the tank a little. The bad part was that the palytoxin got into a cut on my thumb and almost killed me.

You guys don't realize it but there's a LOT of corals and fish that can kill you. Especially if you have an allergic reaction.

You should have a notebook with all of the latin names of the animals (and common) written in it. The toxic or venemous animals should have a red star or identifying mark next to them to tip off people of what you might be exposed to if you are found on the ground gasping for air next to your tank. Your family/roomie/sig. other/friends should know to grab that book and take you to the ER and explain you have toxic/venemous animals and let the medical staff go from there.

If it wasn't for my best friend and the guys in mIRC Reef chat talking to her and giving her links to symptoms for Palytoxin poisoning, I seriously doubt I would be here to tell you this. Even the doctor (who owned a reef tank) said I was moments away from not having to worry about water parameters anymore. :|

Don't be stupid like me. Wear gloves, keep a list, and be CAREFUL! This is a serious thing!

unkel j

07/17/2011, 08:39 AM

[QUOTE=fishinchick;19032087]

You should have a notebook with all of the latin names of the animals (and common) written in it. The toxic or venemous animals should have a red star or identifying mark next to them to tip off people of what you might be exposed to if you are found on the ground gasping for air next to your tank. Your family/roomie/sig. other/friends should know to grab that book and take you to the ER and explain you have toxic/venemous animals and let the medical staff go from there.

QUOTE]

That is a good idea. I am going to do that. Plus, I get lazy and don't wear gloves. I need to work on that too. I had green ones growing across muiltiple rocks and I ripped a few in the tank on accident. Nothing happend to me but my frogspawn wouldn't open for a few days.

I am wondering if kenya tree can hurt your tank too by scraping it off of rocks?

fishinchick

07/17/2011, 09:27 AM

Well it is good that you are ok!!

It won't quite work the same with kenya trees. The difference is the palytoxin.

Running carbon and doing a substantial water change or two will make a big difference in a situation like that.

If you scrape anything off rock, a toothbrush (that you'll never put in your mouth EVER again) and some saltwater (probably in a jug and you pour a little at a time to rinse the scraped area) will do the trick.

If in question, get rid of the rock or quarantine it seperate.

I'm bad about gloves. My husband won't let me have Zoas in the tank at all. HOWEVER I work up the road from World Wide Corals and I plan to drop in soon and get some on my own :p

MentalNote

07/18/2011, 11:22 PM

Really sorry to hear about your tank Scolley. I would have never considered the repercussions of paly toxins had you not posted it.

I've been unwittingly stalking you for the past few years, ever since you were on a certain planted tank forum. I've even copied your use of the Tunze ATO to automate water changes. And your assurance that B-Ionic Saltwater mix has low salinity brought me peace of mind.

I have always found your research very thorough. Good luck with the rescape!

sponger0

07/19/2011, 06:37 AM

Dman bro....that hurts Im sure. And unfortunately, a lesson learned. But at least you are looking at the bright side and you can rebuild and start over.

Putty

07/19/2011, 07:19 AM

Sucks, bro!

scolley

08/18/2011, 11:18 PM

Thanks all for the kind support. I figured I'd follow up with a little additional info...

My previously nice hammer and frogspawn have nearly died. Not quite, but it clearly put them on a near death spiral. Everything else has recovered well - especially the acans tha survived the original insult.

Two 90-95% water changes (10 days or so apart) seems to have put the reef chemistry back in place. The real PITA is that the d*mn paly IS NOT GONE!

Aparently small bit of it have floated around the aquarium, and have been popping up - polyp by polyp - all over the place. However I've been quite successful at killing it one polyp at a time. Joe's Juice takes them out completely, with no aparently adverse effects to the tank.

Too bad I had not at least tried a "polyp a day" method originally. Live and learn. But take note... If you've got a paly problem, this seems to be a working method - even with particularly nasty polyps.

Getting dosing levels set to the proper amounts, since almost all my SPS were destroyed has been a pita. But thats to be expected.

The rebuild is in full swing. Looking forward to the results!

I've been unwittingly stalking you for the past few years, ever since you were on a certain planted tank forum...

I have always found your research very thorough.thanks for the kind words! Sometimes the detail and passion I thrown into documenting the journey gets frustrating. But believe me, every once in a while you find out someone is actually getting benefit from the effort, and it truely makes it all worthwhile. It's all about payback to the community that nurtures our hobby.

Thanks you! ;)

PS - as I'm sure you know, I'm committed to the fact that the community learns from our well documented success AND failures. If it's helped you, then please spread the practice. :)

sushibug

08/19/2011, 10:26 AM

Is it a good idea to be doing 95% water changes? I read somewhere that you want to do no more than 50% max. I would think that there's a lot of biological life in the water column and such a massive change would make things worse? I'm also trying to learn from this thread so hopefully my questions don't sound offensive.

scolley

08/19/2011, 11:30 AM

Not at all. I'm no expert, but I believe most if the biological content in our water (if you use a skimmer - and I do) is generally a a low enough level that is easily replaced through the replication of whatever is left in that 5-10% original water.

A far larger concern i believe is the temp, pH, and KH (alk) levels of the old vs. new water, and to a lesser extent Mg and Ca levels.

But let's assume I'm wrong... For the 1st water change - where toxins in the water were killing corals - I suspect a massive change would do less harm than multiple, smaller changes, particularly when my changed water had dramatically similar temp, pH, and KH.

Though that does leave open the question if my second, large change would have been better to be multiple smaller ones. For the reasons I previously stated, I suspect it does not matter that much. But if someone KNOWS otherwise - and can provide the reasons - it would be a great learning experience. :)

RhawnK

08/31/2011, 09:43 AM

Scolley, thanks for sharing your experience. I'm curious if you personally felt any symptoms after or between the large water changes?

Recently, while on a business trip i had a small die off of a few zoas. now every time i put my hand in the tank i quickly begin to feel 'off' for about a day (headaches, upset stomach, groggyness). i have been doing ~30% changes weekly since the die off. i have ordered the arm-length gloves for future maintenance, but ultimately want the water cleaned up. i may have to do the larger changes for a few weeks.

The funny thing with me, is nothing else in the tank has suffered. Only me :)

scolley

08/31/2011, 03:38 PM

I'm curious if you personally felt any symptoms after or between the large water changes...

...every time i put my hand in the tank i quickly begin to feel 'off' for about a day (headaches, upset stomach, groggyness).
I can't help you I'm afraid, because I did not (and do not) put my hands in the tank unprotected. Normally I wear long rubberized gloves to do any work in my tank. In fact, the night of the paly incident I had on a pair of those aweful thick rubber gloves with that cover up to your shoulder. I was taking no chances with the paly juice. I was even wearing eye protection. Too back I wasn't as careful with my tank.

That said, as I understand it your symptoms are not consistent with symptoms of poisoning from palys. I was told by an LFS owner (that frags a LOT) that the symptoms include numbness in the lips and a metallic taste in your mouth - like sucking on nickles as I recall him saying.

I've experienced the lip numbing thing once myself when fragging zoas, so I know that's true. As I understand it, when you get either of those symptoms it's time to stop and wash up.

Not sure what you are experiencing... it's possible that it's a reaction to something other than dead zoas, like something bacterial. But that's pure conjecture on my part. Good luck.

RhawnK

09/01/2011, 08:53 AM

Steve, thanks for the reply. I did have that metal taste, along with the other symptoms.

I certainly do need to be more careful with protection when working on the tank. Gloves are a new 'must'. Funny how easy it is to get comfortable and careless. Hopefully a few big waterchanges will get whatever it is out. Thanks again!

Sneds

09/01/2011, 11:27 AM

Real sorry Scolley, I can imagine how much hard work you had in your tank, hopefully you will come back better than ever.

Since I am a newb, and you posted this in the beginner section, I would like to ask you, or anyone else reading this post a couple questions please.

I have read posts for many years now, and this is the first time I have read that paly's can do this, or touching a monti on the bottom can cause problems. Can you give me some more examples of what not to touch or other coral specific problems that I should avoid. I see people in my lfs touching frags and colonies all the time with no gloves, how can you frag corals if they release these toxins without causing massive damage? Is this paly specific?

I have read to use the gloves, but have never heard of the more severe reactions that some people have had in this post. Is there anything other than washing your hands from accidental contact that may help, like benodryl?

I think this is information that is very important but not covered much, like I said I read forums all the time but this topic just does not seem come up that often. I feel it's something EVERY newb should know, we can all learn about lights, pumps and skimmers, but this type of information seems more crutial to me.

Thanks for the help, good luck getting back on track.

rogermccray

09/01/2011, 11:42 AM

Sorry to hear about your tank, but I am glad you posted about it. I am very new to SW tank and I will remember your story so as not to repeat it... (which is exactly why you did it) Thank you.

scolley

09/21/2011, 07:56 PM

Since I am a newb... Can you give me some more examples of what not to touch...

Honestly I think that's a GREAT question! Really.

IMO you should start a thread in this forum, and call it something like "What should I not touch in a reef tank?"

You'd get a lot of great information, and probably some pretty funny stuff too. Would be a great thread. :)

Sport507

09/21/2011, 08:37 PM

Honestly I think that's a GREAT question! Really.

IMO you should start a thread in this forum, and call it something like "What should I not touch in a reef tank?"

You'd get a lot of great information, and probably some pretty funny stuff too. Would be a great thread. :)

Why don't you start it?

andresp

10/07/2011, 05:24 PM

WOW So sorry for your loss. But look at it this way, it can only get better from here on.

bartmalave

10/07/2011, 06:51 PM

when i get rid of something in my tank and its large on a single rock i sell it, give it to someone who wants it, or i nuke the rock. NUKE.....i scrap the rock then i boil it in the microwave to kill every thing. then i put it in a bucket with pump to clean anything left for a few days, then introduce back to tank. one month rock back to all its colerful glory

scolley

10/08/2011, 07:28 AM

i scrap the rock then i boil it in the microwave to kill every thing. then i put it in a bucket with pump to clean anything left for a few days, then introduce back to tank. one month rock back to all its colerful gloryReally? In one month? I'd have thought that would completely kill the coraline such that it would be like starting over with a fresh, dry rock.

But you are saying scrape, microwave, rinse, and return to tank gives you a colored up rock in 1 month? Please confirm, because that sounds too good to be true!

WOW So sorry for your loss. But look at it this way, it can only get better from here on.I agree wholeheartedly!

This was my first reef tank, and while it was ok, there were some things about it that I was not overly entheuastic about. Now I'm starting a new tank from the bits of the original that I want to retain. And with a little experience under my belt, I'd like to hope this next tank will only be better. Hopefully much better. ;)

EllieSuz

10/08/2011, 07:41 AM

You just might have saved me a similar fate. I have two large sections of green palys that I intended to remove the same way you did. Now, I think I'll take the rocks they're on and turn them in to the LFS for some bare rocks. I'm not sure if I had this kind of die-out, whether I'd have the heart to start over again. Thank you so much for taking the time to share your experience.

scolley

10/08/2011, 08:11 AM

You are quite welcome Eileen. Disasters avoided makes is worth the effort of sharing. Thanks for letting me know. We'll never know if the same would have happened to you, but I'm right with you in the "better safe than sorry" camp!

Good luck with the new rock. ;)

PoeticInjustice

10/08/2011, 10:33 AM

Wow, that sucks man. Sorry for your loss. Good luck on your re-build.

gmate

09/21/2013, 04:55 PM

scolley

09/21/2013, 06:26 PM

Unfortunately Steve, I just did the same darn thing to my tank. Nuked pretty much every nice coral I had in attempt to save a rock from encroaching paly's.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2333650
Sorry to hear that my friend! Seems to be a reasonable mistake, but in the case of some palys, a deadly one.

I'm glad YOU did not suffer any toxic affects. And from experience I can say, it hurts when it happens. But a rebuild is just a chance to redo the tank EVEN BETTER. :thumbsup:

Thanks for posting this. The more people see this, the less often it will happen to our fellow reefers.

SpartaReef

09/21/2013, 06:38 PM

Thanks for the info

VicZA

10/07/2014, 10:47 PM

Hi Guys, I know this is an old thread but it seems like a common and useful topic to discuss. Is there a "safe" way to remove these brown polyps ? I need to do this in my tank - with the additional complication that I can't remove the offending rock.

fishinchick

10/07/2014, 11:08 PM

Nothing wrong with reviving an old thread if more information is needed.

The best way I found (after obvious trial and error ...) was to first wear rubber gloves. Because these nasty buggers squirt, I would also suggest eye wear for protection.

Mine used to grow out of control and I used to just pinch them off in the tank. However, along with almost killing me, the toxin affects the other corals too, so this isn't a good idea.

Instead, I would plan to remove them AFTER I did a water change. I would have two separate buckets of old salt water. After prying off however many polyps I wanted gone, I would rinse in one bucket, then the other. Usually this kept the toxins from getting back into the tank and causing problems.

After you are done, please make sure all utensils are washed in hot soapy water, and as a precaution, I'd soak them in vinegar and/or bleach afterwards. I would suggest using paper towels so you can throw them away when done. Be sure not to wipe your face with the used paper towels. Wash your hands in hot soapy water, and maybe rinse in vinegar.

Palythoa toxins are not something to mess with. It didn't bother me for years and then suddenly ... boom ... toxicity build up is bad kids, mkay?

Be careful. o.O

Nasty little polypses .... :twitch:

Sk8r

10/08/2014, 10:03 PM

WHenever you work on any softie coral it's a good idea to run carbon for a few days. An old GFO reactor can do it quite well; so can just a bag in the downflow. Also, if you note something really bad going on, it's a gamble --- but moving specimens to a bucket with clean water, fast as you can equalize temperature and salinity, can help. And moving a 'worked-on' specimen or unhappy specimen to a qt temporarily is a good safety measure. When they're on the main rockwork, not so easy, unhappily.

So sorry for the situation: all of us who've done this any number of years can absolutely sympathize. Sometimes you can point to a likely cause; sometimes you have to do detective work. But it happens to all of us.

wooden_reefer

10/08/2014, 11:09 PM

Thanks for telling us.

I will be more careful about doing this.

But the point about the diatom filter is also worthy of thought.

A diatom filter coated with ac powder is a very able chemical filter, but whether it would have helped is unclear.

Whiterabbitrage

10/09/2014, 12:51 AM

That is so awful and I am so sorry, but thank you for sharing because I could see myself doing this. Your story will probably save a lot of tanks out there.

nvladik

10/09/2014, 06:43 AM

Thanks for this thread everyone, will try to build-in some precautions in my new setup...

canada55

06/05/2015, 05:32 PM

Got the Brown Paly infestation too.....thousands, mostly on removable rock....Thank you to all those that posted it will be helpful..

started last knight with throwing out rock I didn't want to keep.

Anyone ever tried suiting up in a water proof hazmat suit and pressure washing infested rock.

Sk8r

06/05/2015, 05:51 PM

Water changes and carbon. Do 30% day one, 20% day 3, 20% day 5, and run new carbon (after washing.) If you have PolyFilter, that would not be a bad move either.

canada55

06/05/2015, 05:57 PM

I have enough tanks around that I could set up a separate quarantine / post wash quarantine system..then lots of water changes.....thought that might be a good idea rather than just put it back into display right away

fishinchick

06/05/2015, 09:18 PM

Canada ... just be sure to wear gloves and eye protection. As a secondary precaution, wash the clothes you wore after you are done. Also echo doing a water change and running carbon.

Probably should completely shower once you are done. That toxin is no joking matter at all.

canada55

06/06/2015, 08:07 AM

Yes safety First...only thing I'm not sure about because of conflicting threads is removing the offensive Paly from a rock that also has a huge leather coral attached to it. Do I just right-off the leather or try to save it. Still looking for information on what works for selectively removal of the offensive Paly. Any work will be done within a heavily filtered quarantine system. Followed with a decent quarantined cure time. For selective removal is it mechanical, chemical removal - question for the community is what works best?