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frnkynlop
07/19/2011, 02:50 PM
Hey Guys,

First and foremost I want to say that I'm new to rc, but been in the hobby about 3yrs and that this is one of my favorite sites. Second I want to apologize for the long post, but I really Don't know what to do. Third Let me give you some background of my setup. I have a 90 gallon dt(3yrs up and running) with a 30 gallon sump which is filled up ¾ the way, In the sump I have some chaeto along with a vertex in 100 skimmer. My light is an 8 bulb tek light. Live stock includes 2 rbta, some frogspawns, leathers, bubble, and flower pot corals, 3 clown, 3 medium tangs, file fish, mandarin, and 3 damsels as well as approx 90 to 100lbs of live rock and about 80 lbs of live sand. In the sump I have about 5 to 10lbs of live rock as well. As for My reading salinity at .27, nitrates 20ppm, phosphates 1ppm, cal 510, mag 1600, KH at 9 and PH @ 8.2.

Now for the problem, about a month ago I noticed that my corals weren’t looking so happy, so I started testing everything and found my nitrates were around 40ish via API Test kits. I did a couple of water changes with no reduction. One thing I would like to mention is that I had been running this system with tap water till recently. I now use rodi water; I also changed my salt from reef crystal to ESV Salt and my nitrates went from 40ish to 20-15ish via the new red sea test kits. My problem now is that my corals still look unhappy and I’ve lost one colony of hammers and about to lose a colony of frogspawns. My flower pot coral is looking kinda sad too, but everything else looks happy. I’m at my wits end.

For the past month I’ve done 25gal water change every 3 to 4days. I also removed the bio balls from my sump. I don’t know what the heck I’m doing wrong any advise would be greatly appreciated as I don’t want to loose any more of my oldest corals. Thanks for reading this long post.

Frank
:headwalls:

javajaws
07/19/2011, 03:21 PM
Do you match the Alk of your makeup water with that of your tank water before adding it?

You may just be making things worse by trying to fix things too fast.

frnkynlop
07/19/2011, 03:25 PM
so should I limit the water changes to once a week or even longer?

naterealbig
07/19/2011, 03:27 PM
Frank, sorry about your troubles. To begin with, I would check your tanks specific gravity with an instrument other than the one you have been using. Nitrate isn't too bad, but the PO4 is a bit high. Also, if you have a voltmeter, I would check your tank for stray voltage. I would also give the tank a really good inspection, checking for foreign objects that may be contaminating the tank, especially in the sand and rock. Could you post some pictures of the tank and the corals? It would probably help the folks here try to diagnose the problem. What are you currently dosing if anything?

naterealbig
07/19/2011, 03:29 PM
so should I limit the water changes to once a week or even longer?

Depends on what the tank is looking like now. If it is staying pretty clean, I would keep it to once a week. Did you start doing the water changes because of the nitrate level?

frnkynlop
07/19/2011, 03:39 PM
Frank, sorry about your troubles. To begin with, I would check your tanks specific gravity with an instrument other than the one you have been using. Nitrate isn't too bad, but the PO4 is a bit high. Also, if you have a voltmeter, I would check your tank for stray voltage. I would also give the tank a really good inspection, checking for foreign objects that may be contaminating the tank, especially in the sand and rock. Could you post some pictures of the tank and the corals? It would probably help the folks here try to diagnose the problem. What are you currently dosing if anything?

I'm not dosing anything as I felt the cal and mag were already on the high side.

Sport507
07/19/2011, 03:47 PM
Sorry things are going backwards for you right now but keep you chin up maybe we can all help figure it out with you. I have one question.

What type of substrate are you using?

frnkynlop
07/19/2011, 03:58 PM
Depends on what the tank is looking like now. If it is staying pretty clean, I would keep it to once a week. Did you start doing the water changes because of the nitrate level?

yes I started the water changes when my corals first started looking bad and realized nitrates were up.

frnkynlop
07/19/2011, 04:01 PM
argonite sand. hope i spelled right

frnkynlop
07/19/2011, 04:04 PM
Tank a month prior to problem

nolanrob123
07/19/2011, 04:06 PM
Sorry for the loss. Other then the parameters have you changed anything lately? How old is the lighting? Anything new or different within the past couple months?

Sport507
07/19/2011, 04:07 PM
I agree with the above post slow down on the water changes. If you can keep the nitrates under 20ppm. Do you have a way to run some carbon?

frnkynlop
07/19/2011, 04:14 PM
Pic of tank now. Sorry for the crappy pics don't have a good camera

symon_say
07/19/2011, 04:15 PM
What about the lights, how long was your last bulbs change??

frnkynlop
07/19/2011, 04:16 PM
Sorry for the loss. Other then the parameters have you changed anything lately? How old is the lighting? Anything new or different within the past couple months?

Only thing different is that I changed 2 bulb that were old with same type of bulbs. (Ati blue special)

frnkynlop
07/19/2011, 04:18 PM
Guys,

I really want to say thankx for your help.

frnkynlop
07/19/2011, 04:19 PM
also changed the salt and switch from tap water to rodi water and took out the bio balls from sump.

frnkynlop
07/19/2011, 04:23 PM
a few dumb question why are the froggies and the pot coral are the only ones being affected? rbta, buble coral, wellso and fish look happy. how long should I ride it out for before going back to panic mode. lol

aquamn1999
07/19/2011, 04:38 PM
What was your regular maintenance schedule prior to you noticing things were wrong?

LAKEM0NSTER
07/19/2011, 04:43 PM
Hey Frank, this hobby is full of highs & sometimes lows. We've all been there, be patient.

One thing that maybe buggin out your corals could be that file fish...watch to see if he's munching on anything. It could also be a hitch hiker of some sort??

I use phosphate sponge in a canister filter & it keeps my phosphates in check. That also could be an issue..

Are the frogspawn & pot coral in close proximity?? Maybe something is nearby causing probs??

frnkynlop
07/19/2011, 05:05 PM
What was your regular maintenance schedule prior to you noticing things were wrong?
I used do water changes about 3 to 4 weeks apart. with doing a heavier cleaning every three months and doing a complete overhual every six months.

frnkynlop
07/19/2011, 05:11 PM
I don't think the file fish is the culprate, I started having the problem before I added the file fish. One of the reasons I added the file fish is because I had an aptaisa problem and I thought that they were the problem. Good thing is he took care of the aptaisa. I'm using a phosphate media pad. Don't know the name of it, but it's green and you cut it to the size you need. I was thinking maybe running phosan reactor or bio pellets.

frnkynlop
07/19/2011, 05:15 PM
Guys,

Once again thanks for all the replies. I really appreciate all the feed back

cham
07/19/2011, 05:35 PM
http://www.nano-reef.com/gallery/data/507/Tang_Police_Jet_GIF.gif

frnkynlop
07/19/2011, 05:36 PM
I don't think the pot and frog are close they're about 1 1/2 to 2 feet apart

reefmanmatt
07/19/2011, 08:30 PM
first question i have is why is your salt level sooooo low ? thats almost brackish water ....

frnkynlop
07/19/2011, 09:55 PM
what you mean salinity is at .27

kurt_n
07/19/2011, 10:11 PM
I used do water changes about 3 to 4 weeks apart. with doing a heavier cleaning every three months and doing a complete overhual every six months.

A couple questions...

1. What exactly is a "complete overhaul" and did you do one just before you noticed things going bad?

2. How long have you had the corals that you're losing? Are they the most recent acquisitions? How long have you had the leather in there?

frnkynlop
07/19/2011, 10:21 PM
A couple questions...

1. What exactly is a "complete overhaul" and did you do one just before you noticed things going bad?

2. How long have you had the corals that you're losing? Are they the most recent acquisitions? How long have you had the leather in there?

Hey Kurt,

The complete overhual consist of cleaning out the skimmers, pumps, lights, overflow, tubing and when I had the bio balls slushing them around in old tank water to get the grim out. And yes I did one when I noticed my nitrates up and this time instead of slushing the bio balls around I took them out.
The coral that I'm loosing have been in my system for 2yr if not more.
The leathers have been in there for about 3yrs. they where one of my first corals in there.

bertoni
07/19/2011, 10:44 PM
I think that you might be using a freshwater-only phosphate remover. If you could post the product name, we might be able to check it. I'd limit the water changes to 10% per week, or maybe 5% a day if your corals are having a lot of trouble. Larger water changes can be an issue on their own. If the nitrate level remains high, I'd get the test kit verified. Measuring some 0 TDS RO/DI water is a good sanity test. I'd also stop feeding for at least a few days.

reefmanmatt
07/20/2011, 04:32 AM
what you mean salinity is at .27

do you mean 1.027 sg , or 27 ppt ? theres a massive difference and either way its out of the realm of normal ...

mahogue
07/20/2011, 07:32 AM
I experienced something similar with frogspawn and hammer when my Ca went a bit low in combination with old lights. Your 510 ppm Ca reading should not be causing that but I would take a sample of your water into the LFS for testing and double check all of your test kit results.

jimmy frag
07/20/2011, 07:48 AM
how is your temperature, also seeing as you switched salt, does it mix the same. do you mix it the night before.

tmz
07/20/2011, 08:40 AM
Phosphate is very high at 1ppm. It will inhibit calcification in corals at much over 0.10ppm. It can be reduced.via granular ferric oxide or another form of remover.
Frequent small water changes(5 to 10%) offer less chance for shocks or inadvertent swings in parameters.Personally, I do 1% daily with mixed water that is aged and aerated at least overnight.
Old sand bed if it's no longer live with sand critters could be leaching back some accumulated nutrients and/or toxins.
Buildup of a toxic metal is a possibility, running poly filter or cuprisorb may help.
If you are not doing so, I'd run granulated activated carbon too.

websiteworld
07/20/2011, 08:42 AM
do you mean 1.027 sg , or 27 ppt ? theres a massive difference and either way its out of the realm of normal ...

Nit picking obviously he meant 1.027. FYI adding fritz zyme #9 nitryfying bacteria couldn't hurt The stuff really works.

Sent from my EVO 3d using tapatalk

tmz
07/20/2011, 09:05 AM
1.027 specific gravity is fine. The average for natural seawater is 1.0264. Red sea specimens live in even higher sg ranging upwards of 1.029.
The euphylia may be infected with a pathogen ,like brown jelly a protozoan /protist infestation that often starts with a wound . Removing dying specimens is prudent. Cutting off dying heads can sometimes save the rest. Lugol's dips may have some effect but are not usually effective , ime.

kurt_n
07/20/2011, 10:09 AM
Hey Kurt,

The complete overhual consist of cleaning out the skimmers, pumps, lights, overflow, tubing and when I had the bio balls slushing them around in old tank water to get the grim out. And yes I did one when I noticed my nitrates up and this time instead of slushing the bio balls around I took them out.
The coral that I'm loosing have been in my system for 2yr if not more.
The leathers have been in there for about 3yrs. they where one of my first corals in there.

Hmm... that rules out some of the things I was thinking.

When you say the corals are dieing off, how are they dieing? I mean, are they just not expanding anymore, or are they receding, or is the tissue sloughing off? Someone mentioned brown jelly disease, which is a definite possibility with Euphyllia type corals, but that should be pretty obvious to determine.

Someone else mentioned accumulated heavy metals, and with the long term use of tap water, that's kind of what I'm leaning towards also. Could be heavy metals, or just something else that is not used by the system that has finally built up to not-so-nice levels. Might be worth getting a copper test kit and seeing what the results are. But running a Poly-Filter and some Cuprisorb for a few months will definitely not hurt and could resolve the problem. Poly-Filters are great in that they'll change color depending on what element is being adsorbed. Great things to have onhand.

Toddrtrex
07/20/2011, 10:47 AM
Nit picking obviously he meant 1.027. FYI adding fritz zyme #9 nitryfying bacteria couldn't hurt The stuff really works.

Sent from my EVO 3d using tapatalk

It really isn't nit picking. When something is going this wrong, need to make sure that one has all the facts, and not guess at what the OP meant.

reefmanmatt
07/20/2011, 04:42 PM
1.027 specific gravity is fine. The average for natural seawater is 1.0264. Red sea specimens live in even higher sg ranging upwards of 1.029.
The euphylia may be infected with a pathogen ,like brown jelly a protozoan /protist infestation that often starts with a wound . Removing dying specimens is prudent. Cutting off dying heads can sometimes save the rest. Lugol's dips may have some effect but are not usually effective , ime.

i do realize and understand the levels of natural seawater . i also realize most hobbyists who keep them this high and dont take the time to type correct responses have a tenancy to over look other areas too , i was looking at .27 ....not clear at all ( +1 toddrtrex) no "nit picking" and should have worded my response differently . thanks guys - good luck , i give :) *edit* got off subject , my bad .

jimmy frag
07/20/2011, 05:35 PM
++++100 on the build up of tap water over time. it will take its toll over time. he,s very fortunate to have gone three years with tap water

frnkynlop
07/20/2011, 07:33 PM
Hey Guys,

again thanks for all the feed back and sorry for the delay responce. To answer some of the questions. Salinity is 1.027, the froggy's are just receeding and they slougthing off. Not browm jelly I've dealt with that once before and I don't see any brown jelly on it. The phosphate media pad that I'm using is the green Aquazone media Pad. Thinking of going with a gfo reactor. Done several water changes and no reduction with the phosphate. I usually let the salt mix for about 2 to 4 hours before putting into dt. The esv salt actually mixes very well and quickly. It usually mixes within minutes, but as a precuation I let it sit for longer. The Temp Averages around 82 deg. I don't think I have cooper in the system because I have snail, Hermit crabs and nems, and I think I would see some deaths with any little trace of cooper, but I'll take a samples of my water to my lfs, just to be sure.

Quick question, Should I keep up with the water changes, I was thinking of doing the water changes every week opposed to the every three days. Also thinking of getting brs GFO reactor.

frnkynlop
07/20/2011, 08:20 PM
Another question should I go with the phosban or bio pellets?

tmz
07/20/2011, 10:19 PM
Once a week at 10% is fine. Letting the water age a while is not only for the mixing but alows allows time for some of the amines and other stuff to settle out a bit.

The Brs reactor is fine ; I prefer the Two Little Fishes mostly because I can view the media. I have both.
Personally , I'd start with gfo; you will likely need it even if organic carbon(vodka, vinegar, pellets,etc ) dosing is used. Nitrates at 20ppm aren't much of an issue for the corals you are keeping in any case. PO4 is a major issue and it may take frequent changes with gfo to get them down ,particularly since the rock and substrate have been exposed to high levels and may leach some back for several months. Getting things settled down and reducing the PO4 before undertaking organic carbon dosing and some of the issues it can bring is the course I would follow.

bertoni
07/20/2011, 11:52 PM
I agree that a GFO like PhosBan is probably an easier place to start than bio-pellets.

frnkynlop
07/21/2011, 12:04 AM
ok great. any major difference between 2 little fishy and the brs brand. Because I actually could get brs brand for less than 40 bucks.

kurt_n
07/21/2011, 10:10 AM
Pretty much agree with 100% of what tmz said. You'll probably never know with 100% certainty what is going on, but it seems safe to assume it's a tap water issue. Even with the tap water removed, you're going to be fighting the leaching aspect of things for a while.

I've used the pelletized GFO from BRS and will never use anything else. Can't really say any of the GFO works better than others, but the pelletized stuff seems quicker to rinse clean before putting it in. Easier to use, in my opinion.

I don't think the water changes every 3 days is necessarily a bad thing, but if I was in your shoes I'd probably be doing 20% every 5-7 days, along with carbon, GFO, and Poly-Filters. If the Poly-Filters don't change color after a couple weeks, I'd probably stop using those. But I sure wouldn't start any type of carbon dosing at this point. Too many changes all at once are normally not a good thing and make things even harder to troubleshoot as you move forward.

bertoni
07/21/2011, 01:08 PM
I don't know of any publicly available data that shows how well the various products work. The BRS products seem to get very good reviews, and PhosBan worked well enough for me. My tanks never had any significantly measurable phosphate when I was running GFO, though. I ran it just as a safety net.

frnkynlop
07/21/2011, 02:58 PM
Guys Thanks for the advice. I'm actually picking up a brs reactor tonight. I got a great deal on it.

Just wanted to double check, but with the brs reactor I could use the phosban or gfo for media, right?

And thanks everyone for the help

bertoni
07/21/2011, 10:44 PM
The reactor will be fine with either media. The flow rate might need to change a bit, if one media breaks up more easily than the other.

frnkynlop
07/22/2011, 12:30 AM
great thanks for the feedback.

wesley6610
07/22/2011, 10:42 AM
Not sure if this has been mentioned or asked yet, but what's your skimmate looking like with nutrient levels so high? Also, how often do you have to clean the cup? What's your flow like in the tank (pumps rated at)? Do you have any dead spots that might be trapping decaying matter that isn't getting suspended in the water column for removal? You tank looks pretty well stocked, so it's possible that flow could be suffering behind some of the rock work. Just a thought.

frnkynlop
07/23/2011, 12:14 AM
Not sure if this has been mentioned or asked yet, but what's your skimmate looking like with nutrient levels so high? Also, how often do you have to clean the cup? What's your flow like in the tank (pumps rated at)? Do you have any dead spots that might be trapping decaying matter that isn't getting suspended in the water column for removal? You tank looks pretty well stocked, so it's possible that flow could be suffering behind some of the rock work. Just a thought.


The skimmer is producing a dark brown watery skimmate. I'm running it a little more weter because of the nutrients. I'm cleaning the cup every 4 to 5days. I have 2 hydro 3 which I think are rated for 1350 gph. I'll check behind the rock and see if I see any debries.

Thanks
Wesley

wesley6610
07/23/2011, 11:45 AM
Okay, sounds like the skimmer is doing it's job well enough. I would caution that perhaps you need either more flow or better directed flow. Even though you have a good deal of SPS, perhaps a rock-re-work that maximizes the PH's you currently have would aide in nutrient suspension in the water column a bit better. I recently pulled all my rocks away from the back wall and near my built in overflow in attempts to eliminate known dead spots. If you decide to add carbon and/or GFO, please go extra slow...like, start off with a quarter cup of each in a reactor for a week or two and observe your corals to make sure they are being burned by the light. As your water quality improves, more penetration will happen and possible stress could ensue. I have done it a few times before realizing what I was doing. I currently run a half cup of each in reactors on my 75 gallon and until I add more fish and corals, I think that's the appropriate amounts for my current bio-load.

Anytime and write any changes, good or bad, down in a journal and take pictures at least once a week so you can compare changes from week to week for better monitoring.