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bioload
08/04/2011, 04:48 PM
While sitting in the office the other day looking at my current 75 gallon in process, I thought to myself, I’ve been in this hobby for quite some time and still nowhere near having that “dream tank” I envisioned when I first started out.

I can think of many reasons for not getting there, but in the end it came down to too many pursuits getting in the way. After all, it’s not how many things you’re working on, it’s how many of them you complete. Each extra or an additional goal to further splits your available resources.

The first factor in setting up my tank, and one of the reasons I never really got started was cost. This hobby can siphon funds really quick, but it’s not necessarily how much you spend, but what you spend it on, and when. For example, my 75 gallon is at the point where I’m finally comfortable managing parameters and general maintenance to start adding corals. The filtration, lighting and flow are all great for now, but it is not the tank I’ve envisioned.

Factoring the amount of $$$ that has gone into this tank which may ultimately be shut down, and others along the way, I would have been well on my way to completing my “dream tank”

Though setting up a reef tank is not my “sole priority and focus” in the grand scheme of things, I have been distracted by other “hobbies”, and different aspects of this one which take my attention away from my goal. That being said I’ve decided to stop work on the 75 gallon and begin planning towards my “sole priority and focus” as far as hobbies go.

My Inspiration:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2009-03/totm/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-12/totm/index.php
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1535215
http://www.oregonreef.com/sub_circulation.htm
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1599945
......and of course.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1640915
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1827226
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1811725

Although my tank will be modest in scale to some of my inspiration, I hope I can achieve the same quality and attention to detail that has been demonstrated......so let’s get started.

My vision is a main floor ~224 gallon 4 sided view with a dedicated fish room directly below the tank. Here are a few rough sketches to begin.....cost will be a factor so it’s going to be a long road.

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/225_1.png

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/225-1.png

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/225_2.png

SaltwaterChris
08/04/2011, 07:21 PM
Cool drawing,but if I was doing it I would only do one overflow.I have two and hate it.

bioload
08/06/2011, 03:03 PM
Cool drawing,but if I was doing it I would only do one overflow.I have two and hate it.

Thanks Chris....I like your suggestion of a single overflow. Many of the choices ahead will be based on personal taste and preference, and i would like to get as much input as I can on this build. I'm still in the planning stages and changes can be made with a few simple mouse clicks. I foresee some challenges of having an island overflow.

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/224_single_overflow.jpg

One concern will be incorporating it into the aqua-scape to prevent recreating a scene from Space Odyssey. I would like to avoid piling up rocks around it/them to maintain good flow. Maybe some concrete with some subtle shelves.

The overflow will house the drains (size and number TBD) and the electrical for power heads and canopy if necessary (both TBD). The sketch is a 72"x30"x24" tall with two 6" x 6" or a single 12" x 6" overflow for perspective.

muttley000
08/07/2011, 09:01 AM
Tagging along, you are part of my research for an upcoming project like yours...epic by my standards even though it pales in comaprison to some here!

bioload
08/10/2011, 09:47 PM
Tagging along, you are part of my research for an upcoming project like yours...epic by my standards even though it pales in comaprison to some here!

Glad to have you aboard muttley000. I'll be looking for a lot of advice along the way as well. Whether 50 or 5000, a sustained mixed reef is quite an accomplishment and something to be proud of.

bioload
08/10/2011, 10:01 PM
Of course all plans will need to be finalized with my project manager. Here are a few sketches that I submitted for her approval tonight.

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/TankProject.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/TankProject2.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/TankProject3.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/TankProject4.jpg

It's been a long day, so please excuse the floating couch in the background.

spsreeflover
08/10/2011, 10:04 PM
Good idea



"Most Beautiful Life Form of Mother Nature"

nikon187
08/10/2011, 10:04 PM
depending on how many holes you plan on drilling, your overflow will need to be longer than 12 inches. you need 2 inches from the sides for each hole and if going with 1.5 inch drains ( which require a 2.5 inch hole) it wont be big enough. lets say one drain ( 1.5) one return ( 1 inch ) and one hole for power ( 1 inch) You overflow will need to be a minimum of 13.5 inches long for one 1.5 inch hole and two 1 inch holes and 7 inches wide.

bioload
08/13/2011, 06:12 AM
Good idea



"Most Beautiful Life Form of Mother Nature"


Thank you spsreeflover, the challenge will be getting the idea to reality, especially on a relatively modest budget and time to invest. Though progress might be slow, starting down the road and maintaining focus is my goal.

bioload
08/13/2011, 06:14 AM
depending on how many holes you plan on drilling, your overflow will need to be longer than 12 inches. you need 2 inches from the sides for each hole and if going with 1.5 inch drains ( which require a 2.5 inch hole) it wont be big enough. lets say one drain ( 1.5) one return ( 1 inch ) and one hole for power ( 1 inch) You overflow will need to be a minimum of 13.5 inches long for one 1.5 inch hole and two 1 inch holes and 7 inches wide.

Thanks for the heads up Nikon187. I have few decisions regarding plumbing which will need to be made. Once finalized we’ll size the overflow accordingly, however, I would like to keep it as small as possible without compromising function.....more on this to come.

bioload
08/13/2011, 06:44 AM
The room is conveniently a blank canvas at the moment (literally). I enjoy finally building a tank where the remainder of the space can be designed to accommodate it’s footprint. Any and all ideas are welcomed, but my wife (The Boss) has the final say.

The first layout was my initial plan for the space with the tank being the focal point at the far end of the room. Structurally I favoured the location due to the fish room to be partitioned directly below. The partitioning wall below would be used to support the addition of two beams at one end, with the joist running parallel to the tank.

After seeing the design and the available space, being at the end of the room will diminish the benefits of having a 4 sided tank. The remainder of the space seems to be lacking identity as well with the primary dining room and living room side by side. It would either need to be a large formal dining room, or a living room, definitely not both.

We are leaning to the second layout more. In addition to supporting the tank’s weight being a challenge, there will be added distance to the fish room. With plans on finishing the basement, I’m not willing to add any support columns right in the middle of the basement. The room is 12’ wide and there is currently 3’ on either side. I’m not too worried about traffic, but a cramped space is something I would like to avoid as well

I’ll have to find some options on how to handle the weight load that will be sitting right in the center of a 12’ span. I have some thoughts on this, but does anyone know of any practical and proven options for supporting 3000lbs?

muttley000
08/13/2011, 04:30 PM
I beams between the joists and the load connected to your footings. I would employ a structural engineer familiar with your area to be safe.

kuyatwo
08/13/2011, 04:41 PM
A member in our local fish club has a tank like that problem he had was wiring to lights as he had vaulted ceilings also how to hide the wiring to pumps like vortices and tunzes


---
- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

geaux xman
08/13/2011, 05:16 PM
Heres something similiar to the direction you are heading.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1535215&page=4
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f278/summerofmyyouth/IMG_1608.jpg

bioload
08/14/2011, 07:22 AM
I beams between the joists and the load connected to your footings. I would employ a structural engineer familiar with your area to be safe.......:thumbsup:

Or replace the existing joist with I beams? I question the use of posts in general because the slab itself isn't a solid footing.

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/Capture-2.jpg

The I beams would span 12' from foundation wall to foundation wall.

Any structural engineers?

bioload
08/14/2011, 07:31 AM
A member in our local fish club has a tank like that problem he had was wiring to lights as he had vaulted ceilings also how to hide the wiring to pumps like vortices and tunzes


---
- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi kuyatwo, Was your friend able to resolve the problem?

I'm plamming on adding a bulkhead and pvc pipe as a conduit for any electrical that will be required. I'm still undecided on a canopy though.

bioload
08/14/2011, 07:46 AM
Heres something similiar to the direction you are heading.

Hi geaux xman, summer6's tank was an inspiration for my setup. Nice to have so many that are willing to take the time to share there experiences.

bioload
08/19/2011, 11:03 PM
A Change in direction?.....and a few more sketches.

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/270_gal_pen_01.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/270_gal_pen_02.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/270_gal_pen_03.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/270_gal_pen_04.jpg

bioload
08/19/2011, 11:04 PM
http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floorplan_1.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floorplan_2.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floorplan_3.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floorplan_4.jpg

ptan
08/20/2011, 12:36 AM
check this out: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1799736

dzrtrataz
08/20/2011, 12:57 AM
Just like I want to do. So I will be watching.

MK Reefer
08/20/2011, 07:59 AM
Thanks for the heads up Nikon187. I have few decisions regarding plumbing which will need to be made. Once finalized we’ll size the overflow accordingly, however, I would like to keep it as small as possible without compromising function.....more on this to come.

You want the electrical hole at least 1.5" My 1.5" electrical bulkhead is practically at capacity. Its amazing how many wires go in there. You will also want two 1.5" drains. Never put a large system with one drain. Its just asking for trouble. So basically you will need to plan for 4 holes which will be about 20" x 5" or so.. Maybe you can go 10" x 10"

edit.. didn't see you changed your mind a few posts down :) LOL

Mike

bioload
08/25/2011, 06:47 PM
check this out: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1799736

Thanks for the link ptan....one of the many I will be following

bioload
08/25/2011, 06:49 PM
Just like I want to do. So I will be watching.

That's what is great about this site. Hope we can exchange some ideas :beer:

bioload
08/25/2011, 06:51 PM
You want the electrical hole at least 1.5" My 1.5" electrical bulkhead is practically at capacity. Its amazing how many wires go in there. You will also want two 1.5" drains. Never put a large system with one drain. Its just asking for trouble. So basically you will need to plan for 4 holes which will be about 20" x 5" or so.. Maybe you can go 10" x 10"

edit.. didn't see you changed your mind a few posts down :) LOL

Mike

The design has changed somewhat, but I may still be running the electrical through a bulkhead in order to get a cleaner "OCD" installation :)....Thanks for the heads up. I plan on all 4 holes being 1.5"

bioload
08/25/2011, 06:59 PM
Supporting the weight of the tank may be a bit more challenging with an opening to my cold cellar in the basement below.

2 of the joist that will be supporting the weight of the tank are directly over the opening which will not allow for support directly on the foundation.

Still seeking advice on this one........

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_joists_4.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_joists_3.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_joists_2.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_joists_1.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_joists.jpg

At the moment there is a door framed with 2x4's at the opening providing additional support to the two joists.

dave.m
08/25/2011, 07:05 PM
What if you put a heavy cross-brace perpendicular to the floor joists and supported that on either side of the doorway to the cold cellar? You would have to really beef the brace up, either LVL or several 2x10s glued, screwed and tattooed together. A second supported brace running closer to the wall wouldn't go amiss, either.

Dave.M

CreativeGuy
08/26/2011, 12:06 PM
Out of town this weekend but will talk with you next week to help.
Joe

jpsika08
08/26/2011, 12:44 PM
Bioload, congrats on a great pre-plan idea, one suggestion, if you see how the Vortechs work the type of flow they produce is not straight but more like turbulent, here is a quick video,
<object width="560" height="345"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HLkW1-6HbQk?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HLkW1-6HbQk?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="345" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

Idea of showing this is not to convince you on the Tunzes (I'm an Ecotech user and a really happy one) what I was think is that with your tank design if you place the powerheads within the confined spaces as your sketch above, you may loose lots of this turbulance due to the center overflow,

If you check this thread (Canadian tank also) http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2060476 you can see how he did his overflow with two dryboxes on each side, I think it's better. Just my 0.02 cents and good luck, nice design on everything.

CreativeGuy
08/27/2011, 12:27 AM
Hi Bioload,

Great JOB on the 3-d illustrative drawing.

I am out of town and do no have access to my engineering books and computer, but here is some simple information to start with. Also, you do need to find a local professional engineer to look at you site and drawings to properly design and verify conditions. I am up late using the hotel computer to respond promptly.

Could you please tell me a few more details and could you confirm the following?
If I assumed that the tank dimensions are 72"x36"x24" high which is 36 cubic feet and a weight of water of 62 lbs/cf = 2,230 pounds. he glass tank on its own I would estimate 400 pounds, live rock at 1#/CF = 300 Pounds, and another 300 pounds for misc, totals about 3,300 pounds.

Your span indicaed is 11'-3" with conventional 2x8s. Will have to check the span tables to see loading criterea.

you indicate that the tank shall be loaded on only 2 joists but a 36" wide tank/stand, joists at 16" on-centre would have the weight distributed on three. TYPICAL floor loading design is for 20 pounds per square foot of dead load, so 11' x 3' = 33 sq ft x 20 = 660 pounds. The conventional floor joists would be substantially undersized.

The header over the door opening as drawn is a single member and does not show joist hangers installed. The typical joist hangers (you can check out and compare the ones you have to similar ones at Home Depot or Lowes and see what they are rated for. It is unlikely they woulod be rated for much more than 500 pounds, so would be also undersized.

The load transfer from the floor system assembly to the top of walls andfurther down to the footings would also require proper bearing distribution. Normally joists require a minimum bearing of 1.75" or so. Beams require a minimum of 3" to 4.5" of bearing. Placement of columns or vertical members would need to rest on top of the poured concrete wall (if concrete block foundation exists, then larer bearing plates are required) or overtop the footings with sufficient bearing plate size.

Someone mentioned utilizing steel I-beams or wood LVL (engineered wood product) and I would agree. Steel is usually a cheaper alternative, but engineer wood can have its advanage of being able to drill through it and fasten to it easier. Either way, the load should be engineered.
Using two beams installed parallel and within the joist spacing (sized appropriately, like a heavier weight 6" pr 8" dependng what you can fit) and four columns (3"x3"x1/4" wall thickness), where the columns are adjacent and secured to the concrete poured walls with bearing plates (min recommended would be 8"x4"x1/2") where they would rest overtop the edge of the footing under the walls. If you are able to rest upon one of he walls, it needs a minimum bearing depth of 4.5", which you may have difficulty installing.

The height you have to work with in the door way will dictate what type of headering could be installed over the doorway. IF you have the clearance, an I-beam could be possibly installed under and perpendicular to the supporting i-beams in the joist cavity with steel columns on each side of the doorway.

Not sure if that gives you the answer you are looking for, but as an engineer, we can not specify or recommond a solution without knowing all the proper information and have evaluated the on-site situation. Why you shall need to consult and obtain a local professional engineer. At least this post may help guide you in what to discuss with your engineer.

bioload
08/27/2011, 10:14 AM
What if you put a heavy cross-brace perpendicular to the floor joists and supported that on either side of the doorway to the cold cellar? You would have to really beef the brace up, either LVL or several 2x10s glued, screwed and tattooed together. A second supported brace running closer to the wall wouldn't go amiss, either.

Dave.M

Thanks Dave, perpendicular bracing on either sides on the span with additional support of the span appear to be the way its heading. I’ll post a few sketches with the additional support once I get a chance to confirm I’m understanding what everyone has suggested.

bioload
08/27/2011, 10:14 AM
Bioload, congrats on a great pre-plan idea, one suggestion, if you see how the Vortechs work the type of flow they produce is not straight but more like turbulent, here is a quick video,
<object width="560" height="345"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HLkW1-6HbQk?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HLkW1-6HbQk?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="345" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

Idea of showing this is not to convince you on the Tunzes (I'm an Ecotech user and a really happy one) what I was think is that with your tank design if you place the powerheads within the confined spaces as your sketch above, you may loose lots of this turbulance due to the center overflow,

If you check this thread (Canadian tank also) http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2060476 you can see how he did his overflow with two dryboxes on each side, I think it's better. Just my 0.02 cents and good luck, nice design on everything.

Thanks for the info jpsika08. Plans for flow may change several times before finalized, and the video provides some good information.

I’ve been bouncing ideas around with a few tank manufactures, both glass and acrylic (yet another decision), and they’ve been bouncing a few quotes off of me in return.

I share your concern as well regarding the power head placement, and also concerned that it may interfere with the intake of the power head. More research will need to be done.

That “drybox” is very interesting......

bioload
08/27/2011, 10:21 AM
Hi Bioload,

Great JOB on the 3-d illustrative drawing.

I am out of town and do no have access to my engineering books and computer, but here is some simple information to start with. Also, you do need to find a local professional engineer to look at you site and drawings to properly design and verify conditions. I am up late using the hotel computer to respond promptly.

Could you please tell me a few more details and could you confirm the following?
If I assumed that the tank dimensions are 72"x36"x24" high which is 36 cubic feet and a weight of water of 62 lbs/cf = 2,230 pounds. he glass tank on its own I would estimate 400 pounds, live rock at 1#/CF = 300 Pounds, and another 300 pounds for misc, totals about 3,300 pounds.

Your span indicaed is 11'-3" with conventional 2x8s. Will have to check the span tables to see loading criterea.

you indicate that the tank shall be loaded on only 2 joists but a 36" wide tank/stand, joists at 16" on-centre would have the weight distributed on three. TYPICAL floor loading design is for 20 pounds per square foot of dead load, so 11' x 3' = 33 sq ft x 20 = 660 pounds. The conventional floor joists would be substantially undersized.

The header over the door opening as drawn is a single member and does not show joist hangers installed. The typical joist hangers (you can check out and compare the ones you have to similar ones at Home Depot or Lowes and see what they are rated for. It is unlikely they woulod be rated for much more than 500 pounds, so would be also undersized.

The load transfer from the floor system assembly to the top of walls andfurther down to the footings would also require proper bearing distribution. Normally joists require a minimum bearing of 1.75" or so. Beams require a minimum of 3" to 4.5" of bearing. Placement of columns or vertical members would need to rest on top of the poured concrete wall (if concrete block foundation exists, then larer bearing plates are required) or overtop the footings with sufficient bearing plate size.

Someone mentioned utilizing steel I-beams or wood LVL (engineered wood product) and I would agree. Steel is usually a cheaper alternative, but engineer wood can have its advanage of being able to drill through it and fasten to it easier. Either way, the load should be engineered.
Using two beams installed parallel and within the joist spacing (sized appropriately, like a heavier weight 6" pr 8" dependng what you can fit) and four columns (3"x3"x1/4" wall thickness), where the columns are adjacent and secured to the concrete poured walls with bearing plates (min recommended would be 8"x4"x1/2") where they would rest overtop the edge of the footing under the walls. If you are able to rest upon one of he walls, it needs a minimum bearing depth of 4.5", which you may have difficulty installing.

The height you have to work with in the door way will dictate what type of headering could be installed over the doorway. IF you have the clearance, an I-beam could be possibly installed under and perpendicular to the supporting i-beams in the joist cavity with steel columns on each side of the doorway.

Not sure if that gives you the answer you are looking for, but as an engineer, we can not specify or recommond a solution without knowing all the proper information and have evaluated the on-site situation. Why you shall need to consult and obtain a local professional engineer. At least this post may help guide you in what to discuss with your engineer.

Thanks for the quick reply CG!......”Up late on hotel computer”, now that’s dedication. I really appreciate the time you and everyone else takes to pass along advice on RC

I’ve heard about a few large tanks with failures and undetermined causes, and I suspect that structure and stand construction may have had a role to play. A problem that I hope to avoid. Recently a friend of a friend had the front of his 8’ tank shatter (I assume tempered). There were two 4’ stands used in the installation and one had sunk approx 1/8”.

The previous sketches are of my home’s existing framing. I suspected it would not be sufficient to support the weight of such a large tank. I’ve been using this calculator (http://www.spanwood.com/default.aspx)which shows the span tables for given dead and live loads, along with the calculations for bending, shear, and deflection. However, the calculations are for a uniform load, and I’m not sure if this would be considered as a uniform load (the stand will be constricted as a “box”)

I’ve confirmed with the boss, and the tank will be 72"x36"x24" high, although she has expressed on several occasions “why can’t we just build a smaller tank?”.....I don’t see the dimensions changing, but who knows? If anything it would be reduced, but I would say no smaller than a 72x24x24.

I’ve confirmed that the tank will be located above three existing floor joist. On the tank side all three joists are currently supported on the sill plate (http://www.carpentry-pro-framer.com/images/3.4f.gif) above the foundation wall. I’ve not confirmed bearing (http://www.hancockjoist.com/glossary.htm) on this side due to the homes HVAC duct getting the way.

On the opposite side a single joist is supported with a 2” bearing on the sill plate and foundation. The other two are connected to the band joist (http://energyaudit-sdge.sempra.com/library/images/bandinsl.gif) using joist hangers. The drawings don’t show a door which is framed in front of the cold cellar also supporting the two joists. I will try to update the drawings this afternoon for the existing framing.

A lot of good information and a great place to start!

bioload
08/31/2011, 06:59 PM
Some more plans for the proposed framing using LVL beams. Does anyone have the calculation to determine the maximum load for the plan proposed.

I've sent a few to our engineering department at work as well.....still waiting to hear back.

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/framing_003.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/framing_008.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/framing_007.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/framing_006.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/framing_005.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/framing_004.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/framing_002.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/framing_001.jpg

CreativeGuy
08/31/2011, 10:30 PM
One suggestion I would recommend is to eliminate the conventional joist member you have sandwiched between the parallam or LVL joist members as combining structural materials of substantially different physical characteristics causes problems and issues of non-compatibility in a a composite assembly. It actually tends to reduce the performance of the assembly (check with the engineering department of the LVL manufacturer to confirm).

It would be better to choose a solid joist member (LVL beam of 3" uniform thickness) rather than two 1.5" joist members placed adjacent to one another. Most engineered wood product manufacturers will provide an engineered review and solution upon request without additional charge. The request may have to be requested through the supplier (lumber yard).

You may wish to specify a maximum deflection of L/800 (a term the engineering department understands) which is a stiff floor assembly with minimum deflection (the amount the floor bends in the middle) relative to the ends.

Good Luck with it. Joe

bioload
09/07/2011, 11:46 AM
I downloaded some software that may help with the preliminary designs thanks to some assistance from my a few good folks over at:

http://www.construction-resource.com/ & http://www.diychatroom.com/

Software can be found here: http://www.ilevel.com/services/s_forte.aspx

I've been plugging in some "best guess" information and getting different results from the software.

Under flooring there are three options that can be selected, joist, flush beam, and drop beam. I'm inclined to chose joist??

Next is the deflection criteria Live Load, and Total Load which is set at 480 and 240 respectively.

Joe, Is this where the L/800 deflection you mentioned come into play? Can anyone walk me through the data required? I know that this may seem a bit unorthodox, but I'm very interested to see what solution the software comes out with.

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_001.jpg

FWIW The following info is under the Deflection Criteria Help:

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_002.jpg

CreativeGuy
09/07/2011, 11:55 AM
The L/800 or minimum I recommend is L/600 for a loading of 250 punds per sf dead load plus live load. Those are the same as referenced as 480 and 240 (not recommended) will have too much deflection (bend) and bounce.

Oh yeah. Joist installation for members and dropped beam for the header over the doorway if you have the room (otherwise special heavy duty hangers will be require at a sizable expense )

Will look later when I can to respond better.

Joe

bioload
09/07/2011, 01:50 PM
On the road on cell on way to MACNA

I'm so Jealous...hope you have a great time.

Sunil

bioload
09/07/2011, 01:55 PM
Just to walk through the software I’ve entered the L/800 into the live load field and proportionally increased the total load field from the original L/240 to the L/400. This information is populated in the “Member” tab.

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_003.jpg

Spans and Supports:

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_004.jpg

Not knowing what an “Out to Out” or “Custom Dimensions Locations” is, I selected a clear span of 12’. Under “Bearing Length” I’ve entered as 5.5” on each side supported on “Bottom” by a SPF stud wall. There are left and right overhang lengths of 3”, however, there is 2” of bearing on the foundation wall as well.
Not sure if I should enter this as a total bearing with no overhang length, but will leave as is for now.
I’ve added under the accessory “Blocking”, however, there is also a 1.25” rim board (on site) that the software will not let me select when there is an overhang value entered.
“Connecters” are greyed out.

bioload
09/07/2011, 01:57 PM
Loads:

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_005.jpg

Occupancy Type: Not selectable with default value of “Residential – Living Areas (40LL)”. I’m okay with the residential part but not to sure how or if the 40LL will effect the calculations.

Type: Options are Point (lb), Point (PLF), Uniform (PLF), Uniform (PSF), Tapered (PLF), and Tapered (PSF). I’ll enter Uniform (PSF).

Full Length: Unchecked

Location: 10” to 6’

This combination of type and location yielded what appears to be an accurate diagram of the conditions.

Dead (0.90): I’m not sure what the 0.90 means. There is a default value of 12.0. I’ll leave this alone based on my understanding of dead loads being the load of the structural member itself.

Live (1.00): This is where it gets interesting with a default value of 40.0 (assuming PSF as selected in Type). Using a weight of 5000lbs (recommended), and a footprint of 6’ x 3’ = 18SF I get 277PSF.

Remaining fields were left a 0.0

bioload
09/07/2011, 01:59 PM
Holes:

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_006.jpg

None were added as I do not planning on drilling through any of the members. I would like to make any plumbing or electrical runs adjacent to an existing HVAC duct enclosed in a bulkhead.

Location Analysis:

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_007.jpg

Again, I’m not sure what the function of this tab is. The drawing above is an example of two location fields at 2’ and 3’, however, I will omit in this calculation.

bioload
09/07/2011, 02:01 PM
Floor Performance:

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_008.jpg

User Specified TJ-Pro™ Rating: “Everyone has their own opinion of how a floor should feel when walked on. The TJ-Pro™ Rating system is designed to identify the products and other components that will contribute to your floor design. The TJ-Pro™ Rating system can evaluate factors that contribute to floor performance — materials, installation methods, even customer expectations — and develop relative performance ratings. Varying the components and developing a relative performance rating gives you options for enhancing the floor's performance. You can also compare the cost efficiency of various flooring options.”

Any TJ-Pro™ Rating: Checked to not use TJ-Pro™ Rating as a design parameter. “This value is calculated by Forte™ software but will not be used to pass or fail a product.”

Decking Type: Specify the type of decking/sheathing material to use:
19/32" Structurwood Edge® (20" Span Rating)
23/32" Structurwood Edge® (24" Span Rating)
19/32" Structurwood Edge Gold® (20" Span Rating)
23/32" Structurwood Edge Gold® (24" Span Rating)
7/8" Structurwood Edge Gold® (32" Span Rating)
1 1/8" Structurwood Edge Gold® (48" Span Rating)
19/32" Panels (20" Span Rating)
23/32" Panels (24" Span Rating)

I selected what I guess to be the worst case scenario of the calculator; 19/32" Panels (20" Span Rating).

Remaining field have been left unchecked except for blocking between the floor joists. No strapping or ceiling below the floor at the moment.

Products:

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_009.jpg

This one seems straight forward

bioload
09/07/2011, 02:04 PM
Solution:

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_010.jpg

I think I did something wrong? Going back and changing my products to include various depths

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_011.jpg

There were multiple solutions available. Some that failed and others that passed.

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_012.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_013.jpg

Based on the software I can use 2(9 1/4" x 1 3/4") with 12" OC ???

bioload
09/13/2011, 08:24 PM
Below is an "Engineered" recommendation that I received today. Which has put some of my OCD concerns at ease for the time being. Still a ways out before I start though, but doing what I can in terms of research and questions up front.

Still unclear about the allowable deflection under a tank this large. Would a 1/8" deflection @ 6' cause any stress on the glass from one end to another?....would the use of rigid foam under the stand and tank prevent this?

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/2011-09-13_221244.jpg

luxtralarge
09/13/2011, 08:42 PM
tagging along

bioload
09/15/2011, 04:43 PM
tagging along

Welcome!....still a ways out, but getting as much info and planning done as I can.

CreativeGuy
09/15/2011, 05:02 PM
Hi Sunil,

Your drawings are helpful illustrations, but you have to make sure you get engineering drawings with HANGER DETAILS and SPECIFICATIONS.

The way you have it drawn/illustrated on post #44 I see a couple critical issues in my opinion which are that you appear to:

(i) be leaving the existing conventional wood floor joist in place, sandwiched between your LVL materials, which in the past we do not mix dissimilar structural materials in sandwiched assemblies. The two LVL members should be adjacent to one another and secured together.

(ii) The header LVL over the doorway is placed on the exterior of the pre-existing rim joist and you are securing the LVL joists to the pre-existing rim joist and/or on the sill plate. You shall need to verify EXACTLY how the header and new LVL joists are to be connected (usually with heavy duty joist hangers using SPECIFIED STRUCTURALLY APPROVED nails of a SPECIFIC Size.

Did you get with the manufacturer's engineering department to verify what you have/are doing with the software? They should confirm your sizing for you before you purchase the materials.

bioload
09/25/2011, 11:58 AM
Hi Sunil,

Your drawings are helpful illustrations, but you have to make sure you get engineering drawings with HANGER DETAILS and SPECIFICATIONS.

The way you have it drawn/illustrated on post #44 I see a couple critical issues in my opinion which are that you appear to:

(i) be leaving the existing conventional wood floor joist in place, sandwiched between your LVL materials, which in the past we do not mix dissimilar structural materials in sandwiched assemblies. The two LVL members should be adjacent to one another and secured together.

(ii) The header LVL over the doorway is placed on the exterior of the pre-existing rim joist and you are securing the LVL joists to the pre-existing rim joist and/or on the sill plate. You shall need to verify EXACTLY how the header and new LVL joists are to be connected (usually with heavy duty joist hangers using SPECIFIED STRUCTURALLY APPROVED nails of a SPECIFIC Size.

Did you get with the manufacturer's engineering department to verify what you have/are doing with the software? They should confirm your sizing for you before you purchase the materials.

Thanks Joe......I noticed the LVL header on the outside of the rim joist. This would need to be installed from the cold room.

I was able to to confirm that the values of the software are correct as indicated. Also found out that the "Location Analysys" tab once entered will give the deflection at the points specified in the final table.

Will keep everyone posted.

bioload
09/25/2011, 12:07 PM
My first draft of the system components/design.......all C&C's welcome.

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/Capture_001.jpg

muttley000
09/25/2011, 04:44 PM
Nice drawing! Looks well thought out and makes great sense. I like that you fill your QT tanks with water from the system, no matching of paramters required!