montipora problems

[Potsy]

Last year I setup a 50 gallon breeder 36x18x18" to replace our larger 5 year old 75 gallon during a move. The 75 was a high nutrient system - never ran carbon or gfo - but montipora grew like weeds and with good color. I had bright pink digitata, purple rim cap, red cap, and other unidentified branching species. I couldn't kill these coral if I tried. Other corals like frogspawn and zoanthids had rapid growth rates as well. The 75 ran 2x250 watt de halides.

Now, the 50 gallon. When I set it up, I decided to go barebottom for ease of maintenance, and I went with an Aquactinics TX5 5 x 39w T5 fixture. In this system, lps coral that I've had for 11 years over the course of the year in the new tank withered away. My 8 year old hydnophora, which seemed to do just fine in a rubbermaid tub while the tank cycled, slowly started receding, and my montipora developed bald spots and stn.

Anytime I add a frag of digitata within a few days the polyps recede and the coral appears "chalky" in appearance. In general, most coral (zoanthids, lps) seem healthy but don't grow much. Sinularia and stereonephthya grow rapidly. My old tank featured a HUGE sinularia so I don't think it's alleopathy.

Here are the parameters:

alk: 10dkh
Ca: 420ppm both dosed with two-part vs 75's calc. reactor
Mg: 1400ppm
nitrate: 2.5ppm
phosphate: undetectable with salifert and gfo reactor running.
temp: 80 - 82 degrees (my old tank ran up to 85 in the summer)
sg: 1.025 with instant ocean salt
skimmer: Euro-reef CS6-2 with sedra 5000 24" tall from my previous tank (doesn't pull out that much skimmate - it did on my old nutrient rich tank.)

I just started vinegar dosing in the hope of eventually being able to feed coral more heavily. I'm at 3.2 ml per day.

I'm stumped. I love montipora and want to be able to keep them again. On paper, my system should be able to keep them better than my old system. Alk doesn't flucuate beyond/below 10 that much over the span of several weeks so I don't think it's an issue of instability.

[DNA]

I'd take another look at phosphates.
You got any algae?

[Potsy]

Wouldn't high phosphates be more of a growth inhibitor than fairly rapid killer? My previous tank received very infrequent water changes and there was no refugium or gfo reactor and montis grew like weeds.

I have to clean the front glass maybe once a week - week and a half. I have a few small patches of cyano, but that's nitrate limited (according to journal articles) and it coincided with my carbon dosing. My zoanthids and softies seem unaffected by the dosing. Frogspawn, torch, and acans look good.

My guess is that something is missing that the coral needs. Perhaps potassium?

[DNA]

Well. I've had some of your exact problems including a Hydnophora going from 2 feet to 2 inches, red M. Cap turning gray and staying that way alive for months and M. digitata losing it's tissue. At the same time growth has been unimpressive or none at all for most of the corals.

I'm on the last phase after years of endless experiments to figure out the reason for the long term ill health of my reef. It's a very long story, but right now I'm battling high phosphates and if I can't get them down in a few more months I'll take the reef down and start over blaming it all on old tank syndrome. By the way I think Eric B. stated that average corals life is 8 years.

Hopefully your problem has a more simple fix to it.

[Donnytruck]

It could be your temp, I had a huge colony of sunset monti recede on me when my temp was above 80, I would try to lower it and see if that works!

[Potsy]

Donnytruck, I'd consider the temperature too if the corals weren't already used to 10 years of temperature in the low to mid 80s. In my 75 which was setup from 2000 to 2010, the temperature was around 84 year round and my corals exploded with growth.

However, this is a new environment, so who knows how temperature interacts with any number of variables to effect coral health.

[Potsy]

Well. I've had some of your exact problems including a Hydnophora going from 2 feet to 2 inches, red M. Cap turning gray and staying that way alive for months and M. digitata losing it's tissue. At the same time growth has been unimpressive or none at all for most of the corals.

I'm on the last phase after years of endless experiments to figure out the reason for the long term ill health of my reef. It's a very long story, but right now I'm battling high phosphates and if I can't get them down in a few more months I'll take the reef down and start over blaming it all on old tank syndrome. By the way I think Eric B. stated that average corals life is 8 years.

Hopefully your problem has a more simple fix to it.

Are the high phosphates a recent development, or have you determined it to be the cause of your corals recent run of poor health? Perhaps you could try carbon dosing such as vinegar or vodka?

I was under the impression that, provided they didn't succumb to illness or predation, corals had an indefinite lifespan. There's a brain coral in the red sea much larger than a car that has been in historical records for centuries. That might explain my open brain isn't looking as good as it used too (that and the fact that my black ocellaris has hosted it for a few years, impeding tentacle expansion and feeding response).

[mroccoralman]

Posty, the only thing I could think of is that maybe the montipora is being eaten. Do you dip your corals? Or by chance did you put them to high in your tank thats all I could think of your parameters seem great

[Potsy]

Posty, the only thing I could think of is that maybe the montipora is being eaten. Do you dip your corals? Or by chance did you put them to high in your tank thats all I could think of your parameters seem great

Thanks, I did consider that, but my original montis went downhill in a new tank with dry rock long before and after new corals were added. I can't imagine how a nudibranch or aefw would make it in there. The new monti is on the bottom of the tank right now.


I'll check my alk results against another test kit. That's the only other thing I can think of.

[Chondro 5]

Few years ago, I couldn't keep any new frags alive and eventually found out my sg was 1.031--double check whatever you are using to measure your salinity.

[buckster]

Believe it or not I had success with Montis that did the exact same thing by placing them in an Interceptor dip for 6 hours. I used about a half of a pill for a ten gallon tank and it worked wonders. I know that red bugs generally do not attack Montis but whatever it was that was causing the issue with the Montis the Interceptor worked. I attribute it to possibly some other crustacean like pest that I could not see and the Interceptor killed.

[Potsy]

Few years ago, I couldn't keep any new frags alive and eventually found out my sg was 1.031--double check whatever you are using to measure your salinity.

I just checked my refractometer with calibration fluid and my tank's sg is 1.026 so back to the drawing board.

[Potsy]

Believe it or not I had success with Montis that did the exact same thing by placing them in an Interceptor dip for 6 hours. I used about a half of a pill for a ten gallon tank and it worked wonders. I know that red bugs generally do not attack Montis but whatever it was that was causing the issue with the Montis the Interceptor worked. I attribute it to possibly some other crustacean like pest that I could not see and the Interceptor killed.

I might have to try that. It has been several months since my last montipora purchase so I suppose it's possible that a pest is still lurking. I just examined my current monti frag out of water and didn't see anything.

I just don't get it. With the exception of a single acro frag with polyp extension, I can't keep any sps alive with 10 dh alk, 420ppm Ca, 1300ppm Mg, 2.5 ppm nitrate, undetectable phosphate, 0 tds RO water.

[buckster]

How long does it take before you start losing the acros? If they gradually start fading out over the course of a few weeks to a month then I would strongly suggest red bugs. If you haven't already, invest in a cheap magnifying glass. It really helps when looking for red bugs. Try to check your acros while they are still underwater with the magnifying glass rather than taking them out of the tank. Sometimes the slime that acros produce when taken out of the tank hinder viewing the red bugs. As for your water chemistry, all the numbers sound good with the exception of your nitrate. Although I do not believe that 2.5ppm NO3 would kill any SPS, they would definitely prefer to be in zero nitrate. Another i would check is the water coming out of your RO. If they are using chloramine to treat the water where you live you could be getting a low amount of Ammonia in your final RO filtered water. Get yourself a cheap API NH4 test kit and test your RO for Ammonia. A lot of cities have switched from using straight chlorine to using chloramine and even an RO with DI will not be able to remove the NH4. If you are getting a low reading of NH4 from your RO it can easily be neutralized by using Prime and I think Amquel will do it as well. Another way around it is to use catalytic carbon in the prefilter part of the RO and zeolite in the post section.
Hope this helps.

[ChicagoReefOne]

Although I do not believe that 2.5ppm NO3 would kill any SPS, they would definitely prefer to be in zero nitrate.

+1. What test are you using for this? Any time I have NO3 go up my montis react badly.

[Potsy]

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll run an ammonia test on my ro water. The nitrate is tested with salifert and API. At 2.5ppm, I would think that the more sensitive sps might look duller, but I don't think that it would be high enough to kill montipora outright. My previous organic soup of a tank ran much higher nitrates and my monitpora would grow like weeds. I only have to clean the glass maybe once every two weeks. So, I don't think my phosphate is too high either. I'm currently dosing vinegar, so those levels will get close to zero eventually. We'll see if there is any difference.

[Potsy]

How long does it take before you start losing the acros? If they gradually start fading out over the course of a few weeks to a month then I would strongly suggest red bugs.

two - three months for the acros and within days the montis start to look bad. I'll have to try that with the magnifying glass. I just assumed they were more readily visible to the naked eye. They don't affect montipora though, right?

[Potsy]

Well, the RO water tests at 0 tds, 0 ammonia, and 0 nitrite. Dou ble checked alk with two API kits and they test identically.

One other thing might perhaps give a clue: while coralline grows on the pumps and starboard, and under rocks and coral in shaded areas, it hasn't made much of an appearance on the lit side of the rockwork (other than deep red coralline) and has yet to appear on the glass. What might inhibit its spread if my alk, Ca, and Mg are in range? Tank is a year old.

Zoanthids, stereonephthya, frogspawn, sinularia (carbon is run in case of alleopathy) and torch are all doing well. Maybe I just have to wait some more before I try them again. I'll go to a different source this time for the montipora to see if that makes any difference.

[chrishayes]

Well, the RO water tests at 0 tds, 0 ammonia, and 0 nitrite. Dou ble checked alk with two API kits and they test identically.

One other thing might perhaps give a clue: while coralline grows on the pumps and starboard, and under rocks and coral in shaded areas, it hasn't made much of an appearance on the lit side of the rockwork (other than deep red coralline) and has yet to appear on the glass. What might inhibit its spread if my alk, Ca, and Mg are in range? Tank is a year old.

Zoanthids, stereonephthya, frogspawn, sinularia (carbon is run in case of alleopathy) and torch are all doing well. Maybe I just have to wait some more before I try them again. I'll go to a different source this time for the montipora to see if that makes any difference.

I had the same issue with regards to coraline in my previous tank. Around the one year mark of that tank the coraline exploded everywhere except the top of the rocks where I also grew the dark red coraline too. Then as time went by the plastic rear of the nc that was a solid sheet of coraline started turning white and I no longer grew any on the glass.

My only thoughts on this is that my rocks had reached saturation levels of phosphate and could no longer absorb it. I could never get a test kit reading of p04 but I know it was there as valonia, halimeda and cotton candy algaes were all present. I also had very slow sps growth with montis being the most affected. Color was pale and growth rate was nearly non existent. After running gfo for months on end with frequent changes plus upping the WC intervals along with turkey basting the rocks then running a floss filled canister filter for a few hours each time, I did see vast improvement with the montis with very rapid growth and color. Digitata still wouldnt grow branches though only encrusting but my caps went on a near steroid level of growth almost visible by the day.

I truly think live rock has a finite life with regard to phosphate loading so if youve had the same rock for a long time, it might be something to look into.

Good luck!

[Potsy]

While I'm not sure that it's phosphate leaching from my rocks, there could be something there leaching from the rock that's inhibiting growth. Other than some patches of cyano - which is nitrate limited - I don't have any other nuisance algae. There are a few bits of bubble algae, but I'd actually have to look pretty hard to find them. So if there is phosphate, I don't know what's assimilating it. I'm going to do series of water changes and see what happens.

Another thing: when the cycle was completed on this tank and I transferred my livestock over, lps that were once thriving started to go downhill. Hydnophora started receding after a few months, slipper coral wasn't fleshy any longer, brain coral never looked the same (it is perhaps irritated by the clown that hosts it). At that point, I think the tank might have been too sterile; those corals came from a high nutrient tank.

[iriejp1]

I'd say they dont like the new lights or you have pests you're not aware of. I went about a year chasing my tail with drab looking corals/STN issues before I figured out I had AEFW. I am ridiculous with my dipping and had several people eyeball my tank and never see anything. It finally took me dipping a near dead coral in Coral RX before I found them. And I did that just for giggles expecting to not find anything.

Grab some raggedy looking pieces after the lights have been out for a while and dip them hard. What have you got to lose??

BTW, after ridding my tank of the bastards my corals have never looked better. Sounds cliche but it really was night and day.

[monkeyman14554]

i second the lights there not right for your system try something new or move them farther away.. i know this thread is old and i am not an expert but it make sommone sense

[mc-cro]

I was just about to question the lighting as well since everything else seems spot on.

You have about 200w of T5 over a 75g tank. I have no experience with T5, but that seems a little on the weak side. I see you did have 2x250w on the old tank, so your less than half of what they were used to.

[MammothReefer]

I'm having a similar situation but only with a couple types of montis, Green Purple rim caps, and digis.. All other montis thrive in my tank (encrusting, etc)... I can't figure it out for the of my I've got another thread on it.. They just turn sort of gray and die over a couple weeks/month.. Acros growing great, my sunset monti is growing like a weed as are many of my other caps.. bleh Good luck. Hope you find something out. I'm switching my lighting this week for better coverage with less, and I'm hoping this might be the kick in the pants my tank needs.

[Potsy]

I was just about to question the lighting as well since everything else seems spot on.

You have about 200w of T5 over a 75g tank. I have no experience with T5, but that seems a little on the weak side. I see you did have 2x250w on the old tank, so your less than half of what they were used to.

The T5s are actually over a pretty shallow 50 gallon breeder (36x18x18). Aquactinics put out about 200 par at the sand, so the montis would be getting more than enough light, especially considering that many species photosaturate at 200 - 300 par. Most 250w hqi bulbs, with the exception of XM 10k & Aqualine Buschke10k, probably put out similar par values.

[hans24hrs]

Last year I setup a 50 gallon breeder 36x18x18" to replace our larger 5 year old 75 gallon during a move. The 75 was a high nutrient system - never ran carbon or gfo - but montipora grew like weeds and with good color. I had bright pink digitata, purple rim cap, red cap, and other unidentified branching species. I couldn't kill these coral if I tried. Other corals like frogspawn and zoanthids had rapid growth rates as well. The 75 ran 2x250 watt de halides.

Now, the 50 gallon. When I set it up, I decided to go barebottom for ease of maintenance, and I went with an Aquactinics TX5 5 x 39w T5 fixture. In this system, lps coral that I've had for 11 years over the course of the year in the new tank withered away. My 8 year old hydnophora, which seemed to do just fine in a rubbermaid tub while the tank cycled, slowly started receding, and my montipora developed bald spots and stn.

Anytime I add a frag of digitata within a few days the polyps recede and the coral appears "chalky" in appearance. In general, most coral (zoanthids, lps) seem healthy but don't grow much. Sinularia and stereonephthya grow rapidly. My old tank featured a HUGE sinularia so I don't think it's alleopathy.

Here are the parameters:

alk: 10dkh
Ca: 420ppm both dosed with two-part vs 75's calc. reactor
Mg: 1400ppm
nitrate: 2.5ppm
phosphate: undetectable with salifert and gfo reactor running.
temp: 80 - 82 degrees (my old tank ran up to 85 in the summer)
sg: 1.025 with instant ocean salt
skimmer: Euro-reef CS6-2 with sedra 5000 24" tall from my previous tank (doesn't pull out that much skimmate - it did on my old nutrient rich tank.)

I just started vinegar dosing in the hope of eventually being able to feed coral more heavily. I'm at 3.2 ml per day.

I'm stumped. I love montipora and want to be able to keep them again. On paper, my system should be able to keep them better than my old system. Alk doesn't flucuate beyond/below 10 that much over the span of several weeks so I don't think it's an issue of instability.

I am new to saltwater, but I just added a phosphate and carbon reactors and a denitrator and my corals seem to be doing worse. Maybe to much manufactured science added our tanks is doing the harm? just a thought

[Potsy]

I am new to saltwater, but I just added a phosphate and carbon reactors and a denitrator and my corals seem to be doing worse. Maybe to much manufactured science added our tanks is doing the harm? just a thought

Levittown, Pa? I grew up in Yardley and graduated from Pennsbury in '90.

Perhaps that's true if the science is used without experience or patience. We couldn't keep a lot of the more demanding stony corals without the help of that technology. My system is pretty bare-bones: big skimmer, two powerheads, vinegar dosing.

After having read a few threads about member's widespread acansthrea lords deaths and their successful use of iodine dips and/or interceptor, I'm starting to think that many coral deaths in otherwise established, stable systems are the result of infection.

[hans24hrs]

graduated from pennsbury in 93. my brother in law graduated in 89 or 90 (shawn mccusker) i lived across from Matt and Jim Grimm. I know that the equipment will help in the long run with the corals. I read that you should start off with a very small amount of phosban, phoslok, ect.. and then slowly add more to let tank adjust to water changes. wish I would have read that before I set up phos reactor

[hans24hrs]

I'd take another look at phosphates.
You got any algae?

mo algea and phosphate is 0. Looks like it might just be growing. It is starting to get color in the white area

[hans24hrs]

Thanks for the good info. I will try to post some pictures later. If you guys wouldn't mind taking a look and letting me know what you think. I also have a wuestion about adding more live rock. I have about another 60-80lbs i am going to add. The rock came from the same tank as the corals and was up and running for a couple of years. The previous owner is very knowledgable and recommened adding it along with the last of the fish (4 clowns) about a month after the first batch was added.

[Potsy]

graduated from pennsbury in 93. my brother in law graduated in 89 or 90 (shawn mccusker) i lived across from Matt and Jim Grimm. I know that the equipment will help in the long run with the corals. I read that you should start off with a very small amount of phosban, phoslok, ect.. and then slowly add more to let tank adjust to water changes. wish I would have read that before I set up phos reactor

I remember Matt Grimm, but don't recall Shawn. I took my phos. reactor offline because my corals looked upset everytime I ran it. I suspect my phos. levels were already low enough. Now I just dose vinegar.

[DeathWish302]

I know this is some 8 months late past your dilemna, but I have seen the same problems from dosing AA and Seachem ReefPlus too close together in time period. I relate this recession in ALL corals due to the bacterial bloom and sudden drop in NO3, PO4 & possibly O2. I run a HUGE skimmer for my system, but still this 'bloom' has caused me issues on several occassions. This is only my lessons-learned and thought I would share if you were still pondering.

[hans24hrs]

Does anyone know or have tried to use texas holy rock (limestone) to boost calcium levels in a reef tank. As far as I understand it is basically a calcium carbonate, so I would think if small pieces were placed in a reactor or in sump that would boost calcium. If anyone has any knowledge on this or has tried it please let me know. Also how do you post a new thread on this site?

[hans24hrs]

I remember Matt Grimm, but don't recall Shawn. I took my phos. reactor offline because my corals looked upset everytime I ran it. I suspect my phos. levels were already low enough. Now I just dose vinegar.

I turned my phos reactor down so it is just a small amount passing through it. Also I just picked up a 12 bulb CF light, so I am going to see if the light changes help any. Also I am adding the rest of the live rock from my other tank in soon so hopefully that might add some more benificial bacteria to tank. I think Shawn might have graduated before you. And thanks for the reef info, still learning a lot about reef tanks

[hans24hrs]

I know this is some 8 months late past your dilemna, but I have seen the same problems from dosing AA and Seachem ReefPlus too close together in time period. I relate this recession in ALL corals due to the bacterial bloom and sudden drop in NO3, PO4 & possibly O2. I run a HUGE skimmer for my system, but still this 'bloom' has caused me issues on several occassions. This is only my lessons-learned and thought I would share if you were still pondering.

thanks for the info. I try not to put to many additives in at the same time, always figured it would shock anything alive in the tank.

[hans24hrs]

The new light seems to be helping even though it has only been a day. The leather and birds nest seem to be repondeing to the increase in light.

[120reefermadnes]

Im having a problem recently with a couple of my mont caps, their starting to get little dead spots on them cant figure it out all water paremeters are great and stable tanks been runing great for just under a year now since I set it up but I dont know why this is starting now because my acros are all doing great and so are some other sps im gunna try dipping them see how that works