PDA

View Full Version : sump is wayyy too slow


Saadatski
08/16/2011, 09:34 PM
Ok, i have a 75g with a Marineland overflow corner-flo. It is supposedly rated for 750gph. After using a calculation on Reef Central, it looks like a magdrive 9.5 would do the trick, giving me about 650gph. Thing is now, at full blast, the drain should keep up with the pump easily. but here is my problem.

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd407/dudeguy112/IMG_1758.jpg

if you look all the way to the right, the return pump level is extremly low, and if you look at the ball valve, it is almost half closed. This is reducing much of my flow, and if you look at my return hoses, my return is basically dripping.

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd407/dudeguy112/IMG_1761.jpg

here is the pic of my drain. it came with the tank when i bought it.

help?

Saadatski
08/16/2011, 09:37 PM
sorry forgot a pic

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd407/dudeguy112/IMG_1760.jpg

bellis31
08/16/2011, 09:38 PM
I would take the 90's out of your overflow pipes and use 45's or sweep 90's... Your overflow should just about free fall into the sump... Once you have a good drain going you should be able to open up your returns.

Saadatski
08/16/2011, 09:41 PM
humm, so its my drain 90's that are slwing the flow? How about flex hose for the drain, and keep the return how it is to keep flow a bit down.

Brando8719
08/16/2011, 09:45 PM
If you put more water in the sump will the end section fill up or still be low?

Saadatski
08/16/2011, 09:46 PM
nope just get sucked up and add more water to the DT, trust me, ive tried it :)

pmrossetti
08/16/2011, 09:46 PM
what happens when you run pump full blast?

Saadatski
08/16/2011, 09:47 PM
my retun section just gets completlyempty and my pump runs dry

dublo8
08/16/2011, 09:55 PM
of course it's going to run dry if your pumping more water. fill up that return section and open her up. The dt shouldn't overflow, ramp it up slowly so the drain can catch up. If it still cant catch up you have an issue with the drain and need to replumb it. Your drain also looks a little high up, that might be part of it.

Brando8719
08/16/2011, 09:55 PM
nope just get sucked up and add more water to the DT, trust me, ive tried it :)

The reason I ask is because your baffle walls run pretty high in your tank.. especially for such a small pump return section. You might run into problems in a power outage and your sump overflowing.

Thats really the only thing I could think of though... that you probably start the pump with your tank and sump filled.. then when you turn on your pump a lot of that water is displaced in your piping.. so that will lower the level in your return section of the sump. I'm not sure if you have enough volume in that return section to have a equal amount flow going into your overflow that your pump returns.

If you've tried it though.. you've tried it. How much more water did you add?

pmrossetti
08/16/2011, 09:58 PM
don't do that

seems drain isn't draining much. check for blockages.

Brando8719
08/16/2011, 09:59 PM
wait nvm.. I just looked at the last pic you posted again... and I'm not right at all.

Brando8719
08/16/2011, 10:00 PM
don't do that

seems drain isn't draining much. check for blockages.

yeah, you caught me before I could correct my mistake haha. I must have missed the one pic when I originally looked.

Saadatski
08/16/2011, 10:07 PM
ok, im about to add a little more water because i think that the water level in my dt is not high enough. ill tell you guys what happened after.

Lynnmw1208
08/16/2011, 10:07 PM
those baffles in your sump look really really high. What happens when you turn the pump off? I left much more room in my sump to accommodate drainage from the DT after the pump is turned off.

I also agree that it could be the many elbows in your plumbing that is slowing the drain down a bit. Also the return section of your sump is pretty small which doesn't leave a lot of room for evaporation or your pump.

Palting
08/16/2011, 10:09 PM
I have a Marineland 150 with two corner overflows. What size tubing are you using for your drains? They look to be the same size as your return, and that means they are too small. You need at least a 1 1/4 ID tubing. I use a 1 5/8" OD/ 1 1/4 ID flexible hose for the drain, and a 1" ID for the return. When I first set mine up, I had a total of 1400 gph return. It made a heck of a lot of noise as well bubbles, but the return section doesn't run dry. Your flow is restricted by the tubing that is too small, and with too many sharp angles, a doublt whammy.

Here's a pic of one of my drains. Pay not attention to the lack of glue or clamps. This was justr a trial run for placement. Pay attention to the size of the drain tubing compared to the return.
http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab71/Kalawing/IMG_0075.jpg

Saadatski
08/16/2011, 10:27 PM
Alright guys, whoever said to just add more water was a very daring genius.

All i did was add just a mere 2 gallons to the DT, and the water level raised, putting the drain more into the water.

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd407/dudeguy112/IMG_1763.jpg

Look at the level of the water now and the ball valve. it allowed me to turn it a little bit more and keep the water level.

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd407/dudeguy112/IMG_1762.jpg

And btw, i tried to shut off my power for the pump and waited a couple mins till the drain stopped going, and my sump did not overflow at all, it got up to the baffles no matter what.

Im going to add more water when i make some more with my RO filter.

bellis31
08/16/2011, 10:33 PM
Good to know, glad it all worked out for ya....

pmrossetti
08/16/2011, 10:37 PM
he might be a genius but i don't get it

if the water level rises doesn't that mean the water is backing up?

unless maybe the water outside the overflow is the same as inside?

this shouldn't be.

Palting
08/16/2011, 10:56 PM
Looks OK, but you should be able to run that 9.5 almost full open. Something is still not right. But, anyway, good luck.

Saadatski
08/16/2011, 11:07 PM
i think that the only reason why i cannot run it as full blast is because my sump is too small. If i were to add even a gallon more of water, and increase the drain flow, i would overflow the sump. if i were to have a sump maybe 2 inches taller, i would be able to run the pump at full blast.

PMROSETTI, here is what i discovered. If you notice my drain, it is a U shape type thing. the more water i add to the DT, the higher the water goes down into the U, giving it more flow until the pipe is fully submerged. Thing with my system is that i cannot add more water because of my sump volume. i would totally run this pump at full blast, but i would need a slightly bigger sump, and that is not an option right now, esp with budget.

pacificislander
08/16/2011, 11:12 PM
Definatly u have issues with your overflow system .. either lower it more ,check for blockage or replumb it.. Ur return looks just fine .. also noticed Ur sump baffles are way to high.. if Ur pump fails or power outage or back flow your sump will over flow .. plus the baffle the divides the refugium and return shouldn't be the same height as Ur other three on the other side. Just a friendly advise.

mrbncal
08/16/2011, 11:15 PM
Can you give us a pic of the overflow from the side. It looks to me like the durso is a little high. If you lower that a half inch or 3/4 " below the overflow inlets you can get full use of the durso.

bellis31
08/16/2011, 11:15 PM
Definatly u have issues with your overflow system .. either lower it more ,check for blockage or replumb it.. Ur return looks just fine .. also noticed Ur sump baffles are way to high.. if Ur pump fails or power outage or back flow your sump will over flow .. plus the baffle the divides the refugium and return shouldn't be the same height as Ur other three on the other side. Just a friendly advise.

+1

It does seem like your overflow pipe is way to high, normally the water goes over the weir and falls some distance into the overflow, then into the pipe as the water rises, but the pipe should not be that close to the weir. I hope this make sense.

mrbncal
08/16/2011, 11:19 PM
i think that the only reason why i cannot run it as full blast is because my sump is too small. If i were to add even a gallon more of water, and increase the drain flow, i would overflow the sump. if i were to have a sump maybe 2 inches taller, i would be able to run the pump at full blast.

I only have a 20 gallon tank under mine. Yours is big enough. Just need to adjust the durso pipe your not using it to its fullest, and you could lower the baffles 2 inches.

Saadatski
08/16/2011, 11:23 PM
lol buddy, i would totally redo this entire sump with a bigger sump and different baffles, but i spent almost $100 on this sump for the glass and the baffles and the silicone. Also, the plumbing is glued in so to remove the sump, i would have to cut and remove and redo the plumbing.

lesson learned guys, for the people reading this thread, please do the following to avoid mistakes, cause i faced a lot of mistakes with this sump.

-read on sump designs well for baffles
-make sure to get accurate cuts on your baffles, because i cut mine 1/8 too short, and ended up using 2 bottles of silicon.
-make sure plumbing is tighly glued together, and carefully plan lengths so you dont have to do annoying and awkwardly positioned cuts.
-make sure to get a sump big enough to satisfy the drain system. for example, my 20g sump fully filled does not satisfy my drain to run at full power.

Thanks all that helped, and i hope i helped some newbies so they do not do the same mistakes i did for my first design.

Saadatski
08/16/2011, 11:32 PM
ok, i just checked the overflow chamber, and im afriad to say that you guys are right. apparently when i plumbed it, i did not put the drain into the bulkhead far enough. it seems that there is no way to put it in tighter. i tried banging on it with my hand, but it wont budge. i would try to bang on the top with a hammer, but im afraid i will crack the glass at the bottom. do you think i can empty the overflow chamber only? do you think the overflow barrier would break?

vp6799
08/16/2011, 11:51 PM
Can the drain be adjusted into itself? I have a 72 bow front with the megaflow drain kit and the drain height can be adjusted by simply pulling it out some or pushing into itself (Like a radio antenna).

If it's one solid pipe, then you might need to shorten it a little.

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk

daplatapus
08/17/2011, 07:46 AM
In my experience with PVC, it loves to stick, especially if it has been together for any length of time. See if you can GENTLY give it a bit of a twist as you push down.

stewartms
08/17/2011, 08:43 AM
Sump size is not the issue. The baffles are just too tall. Your system just isnt filled to eperating level. If you do manage to adjust the overflow height, it will put more water in your sump, but with your baffles so high, you will not have enough volume left to hold the additional water. It may work fine while operating, but with the height you have it will not work in the event of a power failure. In the end, you will need to remove the baffles, cut them down and replace.

brewski4u1
08/17/2011, 08:54 AM
i was having a problem and waht it came down to was i was maxing out my return to the sump b/c my PCV was 2 small. switch it up from 3/4 to 1in that solved all my problems!


after this i was able to run full open and have no issues at all it even dropped the water level in my overflow.

i'm assuming that is 3/4 your using if its 1in go to 1 1/2

Saadatski
08/17/2011, 09:41 AM
My return is 3/4, and my drain is 1". so that was not the problem.

I might have to start over guys, but not right now. I spent already so much money on the sump, and if i were to get a nw one in the future, i will get one made for me. I will have to deal with this amount of water volume for now, until i have the money and the effor to take apart the plumbing and the sump and redo everything. Thank you so much for the advice, and now i know what to do next time, and i hope others learned too.

lastpikd
08/17/2011, 09:57 AM
Off your dt, for your drain, put a union as close to the dt as possible, then run 2 45's to your sump. That will help with the drain flow restriction. You don't need the union, but it will come in handy later.

And yea, I agree that your baffles are to high. Well at least only for the fuge section. If you lowered the rising baffles on your bubble trap by about 2" that may help with the gravity draining as well. It will also create a place for water mixing to happen in your fuge instead of only the top half of the water flowing into your return.

lastpikd
08/17/2011, 10:02 AM
ok, i just checked the overflow chamber, and im afriad to say that you guys are right. apparently when i plumbed it, i did not put the drain into the bulkhead far enough. it seems that there is no way to put it in tighter. i tried banging on it with my hand, but it wont budge. i would try to bang on the top with a hammer, but im afraid i will crack the glass at the bottom. do you think i can empty the overflow chamber only? do you think the overflow barrier would break?

Yes you can empty the overflow section. You just need to lower the dt water level so water can't flow over it. You should be free to work once you do that. I wouldn't use a hammer though. Try the twisting and pushing action as suggested before.

stewartms
08/17/2011, 12:23 PM
Why not fix it now? It will be increasingly harder to fix in the future. It will not cost you a lot to fix. Just remove the 3 pieces of glass forming your bubble trap and have them cut shorter and reinstall. This will cause some of the volume of your fuge area to be moved to your return section allowing you to run a higher volume of flow. Despite waht many will tell you, you do not absolutely have to have a fugebuble trap baffles and run that pump wide open. You could simply remove the The next problem you are going to encounter in a day or two if you do not correct it is that the only water level that is going to change in your system due to evaporation is your return section. With the return barely having enough volume to supply the return pump, just daily evaporation is going to cause you flow problems. If you dont fix it you will find that limited flow is just the first of a series of problems you are going to encounter.

jack straw
08/17/2011, 12:33 PM
Think the issue has to be with drain restriction. Drain not keeping up with what you are pumping into DT, which is why you have to throttle down. Widen drain and/or less restriction at point of drain in overflow. JMO

jcw
08/17/2011, 12:34 PM
I agree. durso pipe in overflow is too high/water level too low for the pipe.

Either add more water until you get too close to the top of the tank, and/or shorten the durso pipe height.

If the durso pipe isn't glued in, just remove it. The water in the DT will drain until the level of the teeth and the overflow should be fairly dry to work on other than some small leaks.

sump issues are somewhat less important.

Saadatski
08/17/2011, 02:11 PM
So this is what i can do. I will remove the first baffle and cut 2 inches off of it. Would this help me to add more water ot the system without overflowing the sump? i will also re install the durso pipe a little lower to allow more flow. i will drain the overflow box so i dont have to deal with leaks, and i will put the water into a container then just refill when its done.

BTW, i am using Marineland's Silicone, and it says wait 24 hours for it to cure, and 48 hours before adding water. Once it cures, cant i just add water? anyone have any experiance with this silicone?

Saadatski
08/17/2011, 02:20 PM
scratch that, i cannot lower the durso pipe more than what i have now. So basically my only solution is to deal with what i have now, then whe ni have enough for a new sump, i will just ad more water to the system. my pump is running at liek 3/4 full blast, giving me about 600gph i guess, which is enough.

laugh
08/17/2011, 05:51 PM
The amount of misinformation in this thread is staggering. ALL of your flow problems will go away if you shorten your baffles. They should be no more than 2/3 the height of the sump. What many people seem to be missing is the fact that in a sump set up with baffles and a return section the water level in the return section will go down with evap and raise if you add water. ALL other chambers and DT level will remain the same.

laugh
08/17/2011, 05:53 PM
Also raising or lowering the durso will only change the level in the overlfow. If you lower it you will just make it noisier because the water will be falling farther into the overflow.

0 tds
08/17/2011, 06:27 PM
So this is what i can do. I will remove the first baffle and cut 2 inches off of it. Would this help me to add more water ot the system without overflowing the sump?

Assuming you are talking about the baffle on the left (close to the drain), the answer is no. The baffle closest to the return section controls the final height, However you will need to cut down both of the lower baffles (closest to the return) because they are so close to each other. Remember that water wants to flow down hill.

If it were me, I would just remove the 2 lower baffles closest to the return, you can keep the upper baffle in place. Cut 2" or 3" off of each, then replace. This way you should only need to use one tube. This is easy and cheep to fix. No need to buy more glass just one tube of sillicone.

I would wait the 48 hours, just make sure you have some power heads in the DT to keep the water moving. Also point them up so you get good o2 exchange. Watch your temp.

If you don't want to make the change, but I would if I were you, you can turn off the return pump wait for it to drain then fill the sump with water (just leave a little room at the top. This will be the MAX amount of water that your system will hold. Then turn the pump on and mark the level in your return section as MAX FILL. Do not fill past this point or you will flood.

Good luck!

0 tds
08/17/2011, 06:32 PM
The amount of misinformation in this thread is staggering. ALL of your flow problems will go away if you shorten your baffles. They should be no more than 2/3 the height of the sump. What many people seem to be missing is the fact that in a sump set up with baffles and a return section the water level in the return section will go down with evap and raise if you add water.

+1

ALL other chambers and DT level will remain the same.

+100

No matter what chanber you add water to, including the DT, the ONLY chanber that will fluxuate is the return chanber.

laugh
08/17/2011, 06:50 PM
If it were me, I would just remove the 2 lower baffles closest to the return, you can keep the upper baffle in place. Cut 2" or 3" off of each, then replace. This way you should only need to use one tube. This is easy and cheep to fix. No need to buy more glass just one tube of sillicone.

This is the correct fix. I would remove a full 3"


If you don't want to make the change, but I would if I were you, you can turn off the return pump wait for it to drain then fill the sump with water (just leave a little room at the top. This will be the MAX amount of water that your system will hold. Then turn the pump on and mark the level in your return section as MAX FILL. Do not fill past this point or you will flood.

Good luck!

This will keep you from having a disaster until you fix the problem

scarface70706
08/17/2011, 07:05 PM
whats the point in having that straw in the inlet tube in the overflow? does that straw go down the inlet tube all the way?

laugh
08/17/2011, 07:17 PM
The straw does not go all the way down. It just lets some air in to prevent a full siphon and a constant sucking and flushing gurgling sound.

Saadatski
08/17/2011, 07:28 PM
thanks laugh, i really appreciate your help.

This may be disappointing to you guys, but i cannot cut the baffles, as i got the no no from the father. He thinks that we have wasted too much of MY money to fix a problem like htis. He told me to deal with it until i get a new sump.

Im sorry that after all this information, there will be no action. At least i solved half the problem by adding more water and letting the drain go a bit faster. That also allowed me to turn up the pump a bit more.

Thanks ALL!

0 tds
08/17/2011, 07:39 PM
He told me to deal with it until i get a new sump.

You don't need a new sump!!!

You need a $5 tube of sillicone and 48 hours.

Either way hope things work out.

snow flake
08/17/2011, 07:55 PM
i have the same tank as the OP and im running a mag12 wideopen and i dont have any flow problems with the sump! all you have to do is lower your last walls in the sump and you should be fine!

laugh
08/17/2011, 08:09 PM
You don't need a new sump!!!

You need a $5 tube of sillicone and 48 hours.

Either way hope things work out.
Agreed. Also do this

If you don't want to make the change, but I would if I were you, you can turn off the return pump wait for it to drain then fill the sump with water (just leave a little room at the top. This will be the MAX amount of water that your system will hold. Then turn the pump on and mark the level in your return section as MAX FILL. Do not fill past this point or you will flood.

Good luck!
TODAY!

laugh
08/17/2011, 08:09 PM
Tell your dad I said so.

Saadatski
08/17/2011, 08:13 PM
ok, so all i have to do is lower the last baffle and im good, cause thats a lil easier to tell my dad than to redo the entire sump.

laugh
08/17/2011, 08:25 PM
ok, so all i have to do is lower the last baffle and im good, cause thats a lil easier to tell my dad than to redo the entire sump.

And the third from last. Both of your lower baffles nearest your return section.

stewartms
08/18/2011, 02:17 PM
Any update? Hoping to hear that you made the repairs.... You really do not need a new sump.

sslak
08/18/2011, 02:23 PM
If you don't want to make the change, but I would if I were you, you can turn off the return pump wait for it to drain then fill the sump with water (just leave a little room at the top. This will be the MAX amount of water that your system will hold. Then turn the pump on and mark the level in your return section as MAX FILL. Do not fill past this point or you will flood.



Do this. Now!

And as others said, lower the last, and 3rd to last baffle and your issues will be resolved.

0 tds
08/18/2011, 03:11 PM
Any update? Hoping to hear that you made the repairs.... You really do not need a new sump.

Yes I would like an update too. Did your dad give you permission to make the changes? Hope it works out for you.

chrisv
08/18/2011, 03:24 PM
Haha your dad will have to spend HIS money on a new floor... or a new house if the thing overflows and causes an electrical fire...

This whole thing can be fixed SO easily and inexpensively. My guess is that your dad is having a hard time conceptualizing the idea of baffles and how they restrict flow.

Saadatski
08/29/2011, 09:12 AM
alright, here it is. sorry guys i forgot about this thread completly.

I filled it up another 6 gallons of saltwater, and just turned up the pump more. I shut off the power for a test, and it didnt overflow. I added another 2 gallons, shut off the power, and once again, no overflow. It seems that no matter how much i add, it only goes up to 1cm above the last baffle.

I could turn up the pump all the way, but it creates these very annoying micro bubbles because my bubble trap cannot keep up with it.

laugh
08/29/2011, 09:44 AM
I could turn up the pump all the way, but it creates these very annoying micro bubbles because my bubble trap cannot keep up with it.

That is problem with smaller sumps. The micro bubbles may subside a bit if you run it all the way open for a few days.

dublo8
09/25/2011, 10:08 PM
why is this still a subject. It's your durso. I'm not trying to rag on anybody for giving you advise but I have built several sumps and have never had an issue with the baffles, no matter how they are built. Hell pull the baffles out for all I care, it all boils down to your drain plumbing. Your water level in your return chamber is too low as well from the first picture that you posted and you will be needing to buy a new pump if you don't remember to top it off one night. The problem is your durso pipe, Pull it out and cut an inch off of it. It's sitting too high. Try and twist it to get it out, if it was glued in you sol. As far as where your baffles are, I personally didn't see anything wrong with them. Your return lines are high enough in the water (which is a good thing)that it will break that siphon very quickly and minimal water will go back into your sump. I think your starting to make drastic changes when all that was needed was a hack saw and 2 min of your time.

I hope you got your issue resolved, please update us on your status.

rovster
09/26/2011, 08:27 AM
I'm not an expert by any means, but I agree that the drain/durso is way too tall. The drain is at the same level of the overflow teeth. I thought the drain needed to be below the overflow. Overall, you just need more water in the entire system to raise the return chamber water level. The height of the baffles should not be an issue with flow, but it IS an issue if you have a pump failure, because you don't have enough space to accomodate the draining water which equals water on the floor. This is the way I see it in the "theater of my mind" and I could very well be wrong.

Saadatski
09/26/2011, 12:17 PM
lol hey guys, this thread was just brought up again...

I recently converted my plumbing to Herbie style, and it has worked great for me. no more "boiling" water, no more fear of overflow. i fixed the sump running slow a long time ago with my durso by simply adding more water. My only problem i had with it is that i couldnt run my pump all the way up.

Now when i run herbie, i do not have bubbles, and i run my pump at max speed with no issue.

ill post a pic soon.

Saadatski
09/26/2011, 12:55 PM
here is the herbie design i used. here is the overflow box...

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd407/dudeguy112/IMG_1885.jpg

and here is the plumbing underneith.

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd407/dudeguy112/IMG_1884-1.jpg

finally, i would strongly suggest you guys try this new type of drainage. Durso's work perfectly fine, but if you dont want alot of bubbles anf noise, herbie is your friend :)

dublo8
09/30/2011, 09:56 PM
Good job man. Glad you got it fixed. Thx for the update.

Saadatski
10/07/2011, 10:04 PM
haha no prob, i just wanted to fix this bubble problem, im a bit OCD about it cause i look at all these great tanks that incorporate this system and they have no bubbles. It may seem complicated, but it isnt really because it may even be simpler than a durso.