A Poll - Who's Responsible ?????

[MUCHO REEF]

A direct qoute from the book, "Aquarium Corals, by E. Borneman", on page 182.

"Neurotoxin Warning,

All species of palythoa and most related zoanthids including Protopalythoa species, produce a chemical called Palytoxin in their mucus and gonads. Indigenous Pacific tribes used this neuromuscular agent to tip spears in order to paralyze prey animals and their enemies. This is a potent toxin and can be deadly to humans.

This poll is a direct parallel to the thread I posted yesterday. See link below
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2063473



So, my question is this. Is it the responsiblity of the LFS, on line store, vendor or anyone who sells polyps, to first and foremost inform the consumer of the explicit potential dangers in handling, keeping, propagating etc, these polyps?

Please vote and then join the discussion and let us engage the topic and share why you voted for or against, thanks.

MUCHO REEF

[KafudaFish]

I see a trend here on the subject.

To me it is the buyer's responsibility to conduct research, ask questions, and be informed prior to the purchase.

We already have warning labels on mattresses, cigarettes and alcohol so do we really need one on zoas?

That being said I see nothing wrong with the seller asking the buyer if they have done the research as a friendly heads up.

[redneckgearhead]

It is the buyers responsibility to research and understand what it is they are buying. As Mike stated we have warning labels on EVERYTHING! We do not need them on this!

Ever notice the warning labels are in English only?

[rogersb]

Nope. I bought several handguns this summer and not one time did an owner say -'Now be careful, you could kill somebody with that.'

If someone had questions I think we should all be more than willing to tell them how zoas may be dangerous, but the buyer is ultimately responsible.

[InLimbo87]

No, I believe it is the responsibility of the reefkeeper to do the necessary research prior to adding anything to the aquarium. This information is EVERYWHERE.

[Matthew91]

It is the reefers responsibility. If the seller knew this person was new to the hobby, he should inform the person. How would you know if no questions were asked?

[MUCHO REEF]

Great feedback, but please stay tuned, there's a twist to this at the end of the week.

Mooch

[KafudaFish]

Judge Judy?

[Allmost]

imagine the labels we would have needed for sharks, lionfish, jellyfish, stingrays, rabbitfish, tangs, and ..... lol

[MUCHO REEF]

Judge Judy?

Nope :hmm3:

[boatguy]

Sorry, but if you are going to merchant/sell a product with a known hazard you should disclose/explain/relate information to the buyer. Not every person who buys a fish tank and would like to have that colorful critter in their tank has the knowledge. I also do not think it is their responsibility to research an impulse buy to the nth degree. Lets say Mary buys some palythoa for her tank and it dies...she throws it in the garbage and her dog gets into the garbage, eats it and dies. Please do not get me wrong I love to research and learn about my reef tank but I do not need a license to have one. I for one did not learn of the toxin until after I owned some...I guess that's my bad?

[Friday Night]

Both parties.

Shop/lfs to watch thier tail. As well as Timmy should do his homework prior before buying. For the simple fact that timmy could be new or even has been in the game since christ was a child. People are sue happy these days like the women who won and now is the reason why there is "HOT" on your everyday fastfood cup of coffee.

[MUCHO REEF]

Keep em coming.

[organism]

Problem is a lot of people are retarded, and one thing retarded people are good at is blaming everyone else when they do something idiotic, especially thanks to today's "protect their fragile little egos" culture. Legally you'll most likely lose, even if the buyer puts the zoanthids into a smoothie or sets an rv on cruise control and walks into the back to watch a movie.

I'm curious as to what humanity's going to look like down the line now that we've set natural selection aside and started racing towards dumber fatter weaker slower...

[SIR PATRICK]

imagine the labels we would have needed for sharks, lionfish, jellyfish, stingrays, rabbitfish, tangs, and ..... lol

All the GOOD LFS's, that I know of give a warning or 2 with the sale of these fish already. Whether its the stating, tank size, reef safeness, tank type, ect. Most of this list is sold with a warning of one type or another. Why not zoas/palys??

[SIR PATRICK]

This question has never crossed my mind.....I do beleive its the buyers responsibility to research, but we are talking about matters of health here. Not all reefers will research these corals much further than color or variety, or very minimal care- and will likely just be told they are a beginers coral, or easy to keep, and have it left at that.

Since its been brought up, after thinking about it, especially with the common misconception that zoas are easy, and in light of the growing interest in fragging, I am leaning towords sellers of coral enlightening buyers on this piece of information. Why not?? Good sellers already send so much info with so many other reef creatures, why not share this very important piece of information?

[SIR PATRICK]

I remember, back in the day, I would hand place many many corals, and continue on to make a PBJ sandwich....without a hand wash. I saw my tank much like swimming in the ocean, then eating lunch, back before the internet and all its info was readily available. Its a wonder I made it this long! I have been lucky.

[redneckgearhead]

So should retailers have to warn about every possible danger with the product they are selling? Should gas pumps have "Do not drink, do not give to animals" stickers on their gas pumps? WE MUST TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR OURSELVES!

[Reef Bass]

I hear and generally agree with the buyer needing to understand what they're buying. On the other hand, there will be that 1 in 10,000 or even 1 in 100,000 case where some idiot does something stupid, suffers horribly and then blames whomever they bought them from for not educating them. This is why McDonalds hot coffee has a warning on it stating that it's hot. Not saying it's right or good, but that there are some really not very bright people out there who seem to have missed out on common sense or connecting with reality.

[SIR PATRICK]

So should retailers have to warn about every possible danger with the product they are selling? Should gas pumps have "Do not drink, do not give to animals" stickers on their gas pumps? WE MUST TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR OURSELVES!

Just the most dangerous ones, that arent common sense. I am all for taking responsibility for ourselves, but something like this, even for education sake, might be a good idea to disclose to new reefers.

I dont think it should be a requirement- but a good idea, for safety and educations sake.

[Jarred1]

I think that you should research the corals needs before you buy it.


Sent using Tapatalk

[redneckgearhead]

Just the most dangerous ones, that arent common sense. I am all for taking responsibility for ourselves, but something like this, even for education sake, might be a good idea to disclose to new reefers.

I dont think it should be a requirement- but a good idea, for safety and educations sake.

Sir Patrick, I hate to inform you but common sense does not exist. What is common sense to one, is not so common to another.

[Easily Distracted]

Would most pet stores that you know of sell a lionfish or a coral cat and say nothing to the purchaser if they were an unknown customer to them?
I think there are two factors that need to be considered. One is that zoas and paly have a very small intimidataion factor. They seem harmless enough and have commonly been treated as such in the past. Another factor is a lack of familiarity. If you were to go up to a typical person and ask if you should light a match when pumping gasoline, the answer would be something like "heck no. It's flamable." If you were to ask the typical person if you should wear eye protection when handling palythoas, the answer would probably be "what's a palythoa?"
What I would like to see is store employees that are educated enough to help educate hobbyists, a store with enough foresight and moral fiber to put a small sign near coral tanks saying hand and eye protection should be used when handling corals and hobbyists learning, proliferating and forwarding the hobby as a whole.
I feel the responsibility starts with the store owner and continues from there to everyone that may come in contact with their products (whether the clients are dumb or not). ; )

[redneckgearhead]

Would most pet stores that you know of sell a lionfish or a coral cat and say nothing to the purchaser if they were an unknown customer to them?
I think there are two factors that need to be considered. One is that zoas and paly have a very small intimidataion factor. They seem harmless enough and have commonly been treated as such in the past. Another factor is a lack of familiarity. If you were to go up to a typical person and ask if you should light a match when pumping gasoline, the answer would be something like "heck no. It's flamable." If you were to ask the typical person if you should wear eye protection when handling palythoas, the answer would probably be "what's a palythoa?"
What I would like to see is store employees that are educated enough to help educate hobbyists, a store with enough foresight and moral fiber to put a small sign near coral tanks saying hand and eye protection should be used when handling corals and hobbyists learning, proliferating and forwarding the hobby as a whole.
I feel the responsibility starts with the store owner and continues from there to everyone that may come in contact with their products (whether the clients are dumb or not). ; )

Yet people still smoke while pumping gas.

[KafudaFish]

I had a guy repairing one and smoking last month.

I think Easily's avatar sums up this entire situation.

[MUCHO REEF]

So, I'm gathering from the poll results above and the comments posted herein, that roughly 2/3 don't think it's the sellers responsibility to notify buyers of the potential dangers. Conversely, 1/3 of you feel there should be some mentioning of these dangers.


Now let's flip the script and don’t shoot the messenger as I'm only trying to promote discussion. Let’s take it further and change the characters.

Let's say you and your spouse went on an impromptu getaway for the weekend. Your only child, Mary, who's 17 and has worked diligently since she was 15 and has saved every dime she's made. She's your only child and the best kid in the word. She listens to her parents, gets good grades, always home before her curfew, well, you get the picture. So while you're away, Mary decides to take the initiative to surprise you both and buy her first car by herself and really wanting to impress you both.

When you return from your trip, you are surprised to learn that the car salesman took her to the bank, figurative speaking of course. He sold her a painted-to-look-new, clunker. The hooptee is 10 years old, bad tires, leaking oil and pulling to the right on the highway. None of this was apparent to Mary as she simply wasn’t aware and had no knowledge of these dangerous defects. And to top it off, she was stuck with 10% interest for 4 years on a $9,000 car that was only worth $ 2,000 and gave the salesman every dime she had saved for her car. Sure, some things may seem farfetched, but play along with me just the same for the sake of this flip.


Question - If you are against informing polyp buyers of the potential dangers of these polyps, are you also ok with what the salesman did to your daughter? After all, it’s buyer beware and she should have done her research, correct?

Let's make it even more personal.

Let's say a LFS sold some polyps to your 16 year old son Steve, also a smart kid, and he became severely ill, taken to the hospital, lots of out of pocket expenses for you both and missed time from work. Yes, something like this can potentially happen. See link http://www.insideedition.com/news/6539/fish-tank-nightmare.aspx


So again, and I’m only asking……

1. Are you still ok with not informing polyp buyers of their danger if/when this has happened to your own child?

2. Is Mary and Steve just stupid and it’s all her/his fault and you’re not gonna say a word to the LFS or the salesman?

3. If one of them suffered irreparable harm or even died as a result of their lack of knowledge and research, do you still feel there is/was no responsibility to inform them of said dangers even if it took your childs life or limb?

Again, for the sake of discussion, I am only asking as I see both sides of the story . I want to hear from both sides now that it is personal.

Your thoughts?

And let’s all play nice.


Mucho Reef


PS. My opinion is this. If I get the sense that someone is blatantly new to the hobby and polyp keeping, I will unconditionally tell them or at least have them to Google the topic and read for themselves. If from brief dialogue with the buyer I can clearly see they are knowledgeable, I won’t bring it up.

[MikeandNicole]

I am lucky when I got into corals the employee at my local LFS told me zoanthids have toxins in them. Also before I got into corals I was already on the internet reading away and also had a friend who got tagged by zoanthids while fragging them. I learned early but I know this is not the case for everyone so I understand the "warning label" part.

What complicates this though is I have my hands in my tank with no problems while my wife has gotten burned by zoas, mushrooms and GSP before. To some people anything can be toxic, to others not so much. I don't think they should come with a warning label and I think it should be up to a consumer to do research. Should a tang be labeled "Sharp"?

[KeiferTheReefer]

So I am one of those people who walked into an LFS to check out fish for my FOWLR tank, and was "convinced" to dive into corals by the LFS owner. He also gave me a free frag of some Zoanthids to start me on my venture. I did not know anything of corals at the time, but decided to take him up on his "free" offer to get me started.

Well, it wasn't until after I placed the zoanthids in my tank that I took some time to research them. I had even been showing this frag off to my kids and wife prior to placing in the aquarium, and now realized that I had actually put them in danger by doing so! A simple warning or heads up by the LFS owner would have prevent this possibly dangerous situation!

I now research everything before I buy, and am super careful around my family and pets after working with anything aquarium related.

Honestly, I was a little ticked at the LFS for not letting me know, and have not returned since.

Can I now pose this question to the group: Why is it that most people who have responded to Mucho's question feel that warning labels are unneccesary on dangerous products? Warnings help keep people safe!!

Great discussion btw!

[MikeandNicole]

You posted that while I was typing so I get to respond twice, lol.

First case:
I understand the point you are tying to make that sellers can be deceptive in their practices and sometimes even the best buyers can be taken advantage of. However, this is a case of clear deception, selling zoas and not telling people they are toxic could be out ignorance but not deception. The case here would be like a LFS selling you a blue ring octopus and calling it a clown fish. In this case you would be able to go after the guy under lemon laws which are out there to protect against deception. Now sticking to the example and throwing out lemon laws and all that, I would be ****ed at the car salesman but it is also a lesson in doing research and talking to other that have been through the process before jumping in.

Scenario 2: Again I would be upset with the LFS but in the end I would hope I raised my kid to do research and understand what he is buying.

(Disclaimer: I don't have kids so I know that may affect my responses)

[rogersb]

So, I'm gathering from the poll results above and the comments posted herein, that roughly 2/3 don't think it's the sellers responsibility to notify buyers of the potential dangers. Conversely, 1/3 of you feel there should be some mentioning of these dangers.


I am at work so I can't give much of an answer, but there are 9 votes for informing and 27 for not informing. That is 1/4 (9/36) who think the seller should inform, and 3/4 (27/36) who do not.

I'll post more on the two scenarios later.

[redneckgearhead]

Warnings do not keep people safe IMO, they keep the lawsuits at bay. You are responsible for the decisions you make!

And if my daughter was taken by a car salesman, I hope I would consider these as one of life's lessons. We all have paid some "stupid tax" at some point in our lives. I have been cheated before and I had to pay that price. But you know what happened? I learned from it. As would the hypothetical daughter. To pass the blame onto the car salesman or the LFS owner (while some blame may be warranted) it is sending a bad message to our children. A message of "I don't have to take responsibility for my actions" What if that daughter had bought a perfectly good car, but was in an accident? Would you blame the car dealer then? For not warning her of the dangers?

IF my son was into saltwater aquariums I would like to think that I would be just as involved and know the details of keeping them. It is our responsibility as parents to be involved in the child's life and hobbies. To know the ins and outs of what ever they do and to teach them the dangers that come with almost every hobby! Would you blame the guy at the skateboard shop for not warning him of the dangers of skateboarding?

And at the end of the day, once those children reach a certain age all we can do is hope you taught them well and let them make their own decisions and let them learn from their mistakes. In my opinion, part of the reason we can sue and win over hot coffee is the lack of responsibility we place on the individual!

[MUCHO REEF]

You posted that while I was typing so I get to respond twice, lol.

First case:
I understand the point you are tying to make that sellers can be deceptive in their practices and sometimes even the best buyers can be taken advantage of. However, this is a case of clear deception, selling zoas and not telling people they are toxic could be out ignorance but not deception. The case here would be like a LFS selling you a blue ring octopus and calling it a clown fish. In this case you would be able to go after the guy under lemon laws which are out there to protect against deception. Now sticking to the example and throwing out lemon laws and all that, I would be ****ed at the car salesman but it is also a lesson in doing research and talking to other that have been through the process before jumping in.

Scenario 2: Again I would be upset with the LFS but in the end I would hope I raised my kid to do research and understand what he is buying.

(Disclaimer: I don't have kids so I know that may affect my responses)


The car scenario I just posed happens everyday. Maybe not to the blatant extent of my story. In his mind he wasn't being deceptive and he wanted to make the sale based upon her knowledge and purchase power. She didn't know and he didn't tell her. In my book, it's the same thing. OK, let's say we changed the players and input any similar situation to your liking, I pose the same question. Is it still ok not to inform them of potential dangers? Keep in mind, now we are talking about your child here.


Kids are kids, with a Cerebral Cortex which involves processes like thinking, perceiving, processing, responsible decision making and understanding languages. It isn't fully developed until the early to mid 20's. Can you honestly say if your child did not ask the proper questions or obtain the proper knowledge via research, that you would not blow a gasket on the seller?

I am only asking :beer:

[MUCHO REEF]

I am at work so I can't give much of an answer, but there are 9 votes for informing and 27 for not informing. That is 1/4 (9/36) who think the seller should inform, and 3/4 (27/36) who do not.

I'll post more on the two scenarios later.



You're correct, an oversight on my part, speed typing LOL. I meant to say 3 to 1 ratio, but the question still remains.

[redneckgearhead]

Oh, I'm not saying me and the car salesman wouldn't have a "come to Jesus meeting" I'm just saying that she would pay for her mistake. And my daughter would never know that I spoke to the dealer.

[MUCHO REEF]

Oh, I'm not saying me and the car salesman wouldn't have a "come to Jesus meeting" I'm just saying that she would pay for her mistake. And my daughter would never know that I spoke to the dealer.


LOL, "come to Jesus meeting"..like your answer :thumbsup:

I read you loud and clear. Just trying to keep the conversation going here is all.

Thanks

[MikeandNicole]

My wife is an attorney, I am not, and have picked her brain on several topics over the years (have not discussed this one yet) so I picked up a few things. Attorneys talk about an assumption of risk the purchaser is taking on when they buy anything. Thousands upon thousand of people die each year from car accidents but cars don't put: Warning you will die if you drive this car on them because of assumed risk you undertake when driving a car. I think anytime you are handling wild animals there is an assumed risk you take on with that. Plenty of animals can carry diseases that can harm and kill humans yet they don't have that on a warning label on that animal.

On the flip side of that their is also pulic nuisance laws (why you have to have a fence around your pool) which protect people (especially kids) around dangerous things. I can't put up a flame thrower spinning blades combo on my front lawn with easy access to all and not accept any responsibility for them.

So going back to your example would I be really really upset with the seller taking advantage of my child, yes. However, it is a lesson everyone has to learn some point in their life that there are bad people out there looking to take advantage of you at every turn. You need to take the proper steps to protect yourself at all times. In this case as with anything you put in your tank you need to research it beforehand.

[MUCHO REEF]

Good stuff Mike, thanks for sharing that. :thumbsup:

[MUCHO REEF]

RECAP


"So, my question is this. Is it the responsiblity of the LFS, on line store, vendor or anyone who sells polyps, to first and foremost inform the consumer of the explicit potential dangers in handling, keeping, propagating etc, these polyps?


Also, see post # 26

Please vote and then join the discussion and let us engage the topic and share why you voted for or against, thanks."

MUCHO REEF

[organism]

The car scenario I just posed happens everyday. Maybe not to the blatant extent of my story. In his mind he wasn't being deceptive and he wanted to make the sale based upon her knowledge and purchase power. She didn't know and he didn't tell her. In my book, it's the same thing.

True, but in the legal books there's a lot of laws to prevent consumer fraud, especially with cars. Someone being conned is way different than someone not researching something harmful, apples and oranges :)

Let's say a LFS sold some polyps to your 16 year old son Steve, also a smart kid, and he became severely ill, taken to the hospital, lots of out of pocket expenses for you both and missed time from work. Yes, something like this can potentially happen. See link http://www.insideedition.com/news/6539/fish-tank-nightmare.aspx

imo it's a different situation when you're talking about a minor vs an adult since kids are less likely to inform themselves. They're widely known to do stupid stuff all the time without researching anything, it's part of being a kid and how most of us end up with cool random scars. Either way, legally that's a case the LFS would for sure lose.

[MUCHO REEF]

Good points, thanks for sharing that. I think a lot was gained from this discussion, just wanted to throw it all out there.

[MUCHO REEF]

Can I now pose this question to the group: Why is it that most people who have responded to Mucho's question feel that warning labels are unneccesary on dangerous products? Warnings help keep people safe!!

Great discussion btw!


This poll never was about labels. Not sure how it went there, so let's focus on the verbal warning as I spoke of on page one. Thanks Keifer.

Mucho Reef

PS, don't forget to vote up top peeps.

[SIR PATRICK]

Good LFS's, in my opinion, are a place to learn. A place to find info along with purchase fish/coral. If I dont get some background information, or warnings on these purchases, weather I researched them first or not, it affects my veiws on the shop.

I guess I am kinda old school though in my thinking, as when I was learning these things, there wasnt a ton of info on any of these subjects to be had with a few pushes of a button.

Its not so hard to research these days as it once was, but still think some information should be shared on a variety of animals we buy from sellers, be it fish, rock, coral or even a tank. For a very long time, sharing information, researched or not, was a HUGE part of the hobby. That is what got reefing and the saltwater hobby to the point its at today.

[Easily Distracted]

Its not so hard to research these days as it once was, but still think some information should be shared on a variety of animals we buy from sellers, be it fish, rock, coral or even a tank. For a very long time, sharing information, researched or not, was a HUGE part of the hobby. That is what got reefing and the saltwater hobby to the point its at today.

Good point!

[KeiferTheReefer]

This poll never was about labels. Not sure how it went there, so let's focus on the verbal warning as I spoke of on page one. Thanks Keifer.

Mucho Reef

PS, don't forget to vote up top peeps.

Didn't mean to derail from the subject! My apologies!

I agree with Sir Patrick. We all know that LFS's can be pretty pursuasive to beginners when it comes to what should be ill-advised purchases of unreasearched corals. A warning (either verbal or visible) would also help to give one of these types of customers a better insight to their possible purchase, and hopefully cause them to rethink and in turn research before making the purchase.

This is a wonderful topic folks, lets keep it going with more votes!

[tebstan]

I work at a LFS. Should a warning be required? No. It's too cumbersome, for one thing. Recommended? That's a case by case basis.

For example, if I'm selling a hamster or gerbil, sometimes it's obvious that animal is going to a safe and educated home. I can tell by the way they handle the animal and the kind of questions they ask. Do I need to warn them, "This animal may bite?" Nope, I don't.

However, when a mom wants to buy her kid a pet turtle, but the kid is running around the store like a crazy person and mom isn't really listening either... I make a huge point of pointing out the dangers of salmonella.

When I sell any animal, I'm focusing on what we do for it, not what it can do to us.

[MUCHO REEF]

Didn't mean to derail from the subject! My apologies!

I agree with Sir Patrick. We all know that LFS's can be pretty pursuasive to beginners when it comes to what should be ill-advised purchases of unreasearched corals. A warning (either verbal or visible) would also help to give one of these types of customers a better insight to their possible purchase, and hopefully cause them to rethink and in turn research before making the purchase.

This is a wonderful topic folks, lets keep it going with more votes!

Oh no need to apologize at all my friend, you did nothing wrong and you didn't derail this topic at all. I was going to make that statement based upon the "labels" being mentioned numerous times. You're good.

Mooch

[MUCHO REEF]

Good LFS's, in my opinion, are a place to learn. A place to find info along with purchase fish/coral. If I dont get some background information, or warnings on these purchases, weather I researched them first or not, it affects my veiws on the shop.

I guess I am kinda old school though in my thinking, as when I was learning these things, there wasnt a ton of info on any of these subjects to be had with a few pushes of a button.

Its not so hard to research these days as it once was, but still think some information should be shared on a variety of animals we buy from sellers, be it fish, rock, coral or even a tank. For a very long time, sharing information, researched or not, was a HUGE part of the hobby. That is what got reefing and the saltwater hobby to the point its at today.


Great points you make my friend. Thanks for sharing that insight. Anyone else care to weigh in?

Mooch

[MUCHO REEF]

ONLY 53 votes? Anyone else?

[sweet d]

Problem is a lot of people are retarded, and one thing retarded people are good at is blaming everyone else when they do something idiotic

hahahaha:spin1::lmao::lmao:so very true in all aspects of life!
on to the question its the buyers responsibility to do the research the store should disclose if the customer asks also.

[rustyjames]

I don't have any children, if it was the fruit of my looms I'd probably feel different. I think really it's the responsibility of the buyer to be educated and informed.

Get taken on a clunker? You learn the hard way.

Get "tagged" by a zoa? You learn the hard way.

Although, I'd like to think that if someone walked into a lfs and said "ohh, those are pretty and their only $10, I'll take them. What are they?" The owner/employee would give them a little heads up.

[sucker_fish]

OK im gonna chime in here now that I voted, When I first got into the hobby a guy that owned a LFS sold me some zoas. When I was walking around looking at them he was carrying on a conversation about the zoas and just randomly bought up the topic about them being toxic which was a complete surprise to me.(I knew there were some that were toxic but tought it was only a very few) Anyway to answer the question I dont think it is the responsibility of the LFS to warn the customers, however it is a good idea. I dont recall any car salesman ever telling me that if I drive the car that i am buying too fast it could result in my death. I agree that we should research items that we purchase, wether it be cars, zoas or electric razors, we need to get away from blaming everyone else for our mistakes and learn from them then pass that knowledge on to others so they dont make the same mistakes.

[Borchers]

This is just my 2 cents.
As someone who always runs into new reefers I do believe that the LFS should advise that caution.is needed when buying Palys and Zoas. People here have stated that all buyers should do research on there own which should be a rule before before buying any animal or fish or coral but after reading honor stories on this forum about crashed tanks and dead fish I think stores should advised customers that when they reach there hand into the tank to clean thy could be exposed.to the palytoxin. Even if its only to avoid a child's hand from reaching in and grabbing a frag from a low sitting tank. A little info may save a life. I know this seems like a rant but I have experienced palytoxin first hand after placing some newly purchased palys into my tank when I first started. 5 days feeling like I had been run over by a truck. My LFS just popped them in a bag and took my card. Not their fault but a little info would have gone a long way. Now I know.

[A. Grandis]

The buyer needs to be aware of any risk.
Not everyone that buys an organism knows everything about it.
The safest way for the buyer to know is through the seller.
They should give an information sheet to the buyer.
That could save a lot of headaches for many.

Safety comes first.

Grandis.

[MUCHO REEF]

This is just my 2 cents.
As someone who always runs into new reefers I do believe that the LFS should advise that caution.is needed when buying Palys and Zoas. People here have stated that all buyers should do research on there own which should be a rule before before buying any animal or fish or coral but after reading honor stories on this forum about crashed tanks and dead fish I think stores should advised customers that when they reach there hand into the tank to clean thy could be exposed.to the palytoxin. Even if its only to avoid a child's hand from reaching in and grabbing a frag from a low sitting tank. A little info may save a life. I know this seems like a rant but I have experienced palytoxin first hand after placing some newly purchased palys into my tank when I first started. 5 days feeling like I had been run over by a truck. My LFS just popped them in a bag and took my card. Not their fault but a little info would have gone a long way. Now I know.


I don't think it's a rant at all, you're simply stating how you feel and you have every right to do so pro or con.


Mucho

[MUCHO REEF]

The buyer needs to be aware of any risk.
Not everyone that buys an organism knows everything about it.
The safest way for the buyer to know is through the seller.
They should give an information sheet to the buyer.
That could save a lot of headaches for many.

Safety comes first.

Grandis.

I would hate for someone to fall ill because I didn't share one line of info.

Mooch

[MUCHO REEF]

Was really hoping to get at least 100 votes/opinions. Hey, I tried.

[CCarlson]

To me, consumer should be aware of what they are getting in to.

[Borchers]

You did try. You have started alot of great theads lately. Nice!

[redneckgearhead]

And you made me rethink some of my positions on other topics as well! Thanks!

[The Escaped Ape]

Was really hoping to get at least 100 votes/opinions. Hey, I tried.

I was vacillating between the two options. I'm going to be a bit wishy-washy and say it's down to both sides. We each have a responsibility to be intelligent consumers, for the good of our livestock and for our own health and safety. However a retailer also needs to think about developing a reputation built on trust and to market their goods responsibly.

I'm not going to get into the technicalities of who's legally responsible, or should be. I don't know enough about the US legal system to get into that.

[MUCHO REEF]

And you made me rethink some of my positions on other topics as well! Thanks!

How so?

[pascal32]

Buyers responsibility - a good seller will educate new customers and as a result naturally persevere. I took out the political part of my post for the sake of not diverting the thread :)

[lazytaper]

It's the buyer's responsibility.

[emerald crab]

A reefer licence issued by the local safety authority can be a solution.

[The Escaped Ape]

A reefer licence issued by the local safety authority can be a solution.

For the store owner or for the reefer? I like the idea of store owners being tested to see that they're responsible, but I'm not sure I'd trust local authorities to administer it...

[redneckgearhead]

Well, I changed my position on the show "tanked". It really bothered me that they show the aquarium hobby as "just add water". And I fear that alot of fish will die/suffer because of this show. And I stated this in the threads regarding this. BUT It is my belief that the people that buy the fish are responsible for them! This thread opened my eyes to my own hypocrisy.

[XSharkboyX]

Problem is a lot of people are retarded, and one thing retarded people are good at is blaming everyone else when they do something idiotic, especially thanks to today's "protect their fragile little egos" culture. Legally you'll most likely lose, even if the buyer puts the zoanthids into a smoothie or sets an rv on cruise control and walks into the back to watch a movie.

I'm curious as to what humanity's going to look like down the line now that we've set natural selection aside and started racing towards dumber fatter weaker slower...

:lmao: Awesome!

[MUCHO REEF]

Well, I changed my position on the show "tanked". It really bothered me that they show the aquarium hobby as "just add water". And I fear that alot of fish will die/suffer because of this show. And I stated this in the threads regarding this. BUT It is my belief that the people that buy the fish are responsible for them! This thread opened my eyes to my own hypocrisy.

I hear you loud and clear on Tanked.

I think you might be a little too hard on yourself hypocrisy wise. Not sure really what you mean specifically. Threads do sometimes make us think about a lot of things we normally don't.


Mucho

[pascal32]

A reefer licence issued by the local safety authority can be a solution.

More laws and government agencies to control them? I'm kindly going to disagree. I believe Florida did something like this and you can get arrested for sellig a frag - don't remember the details.

[A. Grandis]

So simple:

Responsibility of consumer: to learn how to take care of the organisms and get all they need for that. Most of it could also come from the seller, besides others.

Responsibility of seller: let every consumer know the danger (if any) of the organism to be sold, if the seller knows!!!!
Seller should know!
I wouldn't be surprised if sometimes they don't.

Would a seller sell a Lionfish without warn the consumer of it's "spines"?
What about a snake? Poisonous or not...
That's normal stuff...
Why not with zoas?

No big deal.

Perhaps the sellers need to be instructed about Palytoxin.
Just like in this forum we see the sticky about it.

Grandis.

[MUCHO REEF]

A reefer licence issued by the local safety authority can be a solution.

Though your intent is honorable, I'm not sure a legal mandate will occur. But who knows, maybe someone in DNR, Fish & Wild Life, etc might be reading this and suggest just that.

[laugh]

Your analogy makes no sense. There is a difference between lying about the condition of a car and not educating someone about the potential dangers of driving.

[MUCHO REEF]

So simple:

Responsibility of consumer: to learn how to take care of the organisms and get all they need for that. Most of it could also come from the seller, besides others.

Responsibility of seller: let every consumer know the danger (if any) of the organism to be sold, if the seller knows!!!!
Seller should know!
I wouldn't be surprised if sometimes they don't.

Would a seller sell a Lionfish without warn the consumer of it's "spines"?
What about a snake? Poisonous or not...
That's normal stuff...
Why not with zoas?

No big deal.

Perhaps the sellers need to be instructed about Palytoxin.
Just like in this forum we see the sticky about it.

Grandis.


Forgot to mention, I often think about post # 28 of the thread below.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2063473&page=2

gmyers0203 had no clue and was very grateful for learning about something she was completely unaware of till reading this thread. For that reason alone, I think sharing a word or two won't hurt.

Mooch

[h20player101]

Are you going to also warn about getting puncture wounds from vermatid snails? Tangs sharp tail? The sharp edges on reflectors for a T5 retro kit?

I have had all of these happen to me, why? Because I was stupid, not the LFS.

[650-IS350]

Just as an example, DD always warns whether a fish is poisonous, agressive or what.

Minimum Tank Size: 125 gallons
Care Level: Moderate
Temperament: Peaceful
Reef Compatible: With Caution
Water Conditions: 72-78° F, dKH 8-12, pH 8.1-8.4, sg 1.020-1.025
Max. Size: 9"
Venomous: Yes
Diet: Herbivore
Compatibility: View Chart

http://www.liveaquaria.com/diversden/ItemDisplay.cfm?c=2733+3&ddid=131843

[MUCHO REEF]

Just as an example, DD always warns whether a fish is poisonous, agressive or what.

Minimum Tank Size: 125 gallons
Care Level: Moderate
Temperament: Peaceful
Reef Compatible: With Caution
Water Conditions: 72-78° F, dKH 8-12, pH 8.1-8.4, sg 1.020-1.025
Max. Size: 9"
Venomous: Yes
Diet: Herbivore
Compatibility: View Chart

http://www.liveaquaria.com/diversden/ItemDisplay.cfm?c=2733+3&ddid=131843


By simply stating they are venomous, thus possibly saving someone some serious grief, or mentioning a single sentence regarding zoanthids and their potential dangers, yep, I can do that. Thanks 650-!S350 :thumbsup: