About to start cycling, any tips?

[maybeshewill]

Hey guys, my sump is coming and the tank is getting plumbed today, so in a few days when the glue settles it's time to add the water/sand/rock.

I'm looking for any tips you can give me for the cycling process? Do I need to use a shrimp, or will aquascaping my tank with plenty of live rock do just as good a job? I'm a bit hesitant to try the raw shrimp as the tank is in my bedroom and I'm afraid it would stink like dead fish.

That is my other question, do I put all my live rock in when I start the cycle process? I've read that moving the sand can cause negative spikes, so that leads me to believe that the last thing you want to be doing is moving sand around after you've just gotten your levels perfect after a cycle?

I appreciate any assistance and can't wait to start my salt water journey!

[Bowels]

Well In the perfect scenario:
-Use Live Sand (expensive) but gives you a head start on the bacteria base.
-Heat the water- Same temp you would for fish.
-Put live rock in first (on the glass) then put in sand... then when you get critters digging your sand a rock doesnt fall and break your glass
- If you use cured rock, you prob wont have to wait very long for it to cycle...1-2 weeks
-If you use uncured rock (that is rock that is taken right from the ocean) I would and did wait a month before putting life in the tank...even tho life comes with the live rock...

Patience would be my biggest tip. lol Good luck

[rayn]

Patience! Biggest key to this hobby. I don't recall any real smell when I used shrimp to cycle mine. You know you are getting a ammonia spike and then can follow it through the stages. Then with a water change after the cycle is complete you can begin the adding of life.

No matter what happens don't get discouraged. This takes time for a tank to develop and look like all those you are dreaming about. ;)

[maybeshewill]

Thanks for the tips so far guys :) As for heating, is a heater something that is necessary for a tank? I hear the right temp is about 78-82 degrees celcius or so?

I imagine if the water automatically sits between that a heater may not be a must? How long does it generally take for water to heat to a stable temperature?

Also, I am buying the live rock from someone who is closing down their tank this week. If it's been sitting in a tank for 5 years, I'd imagine then that it's cured?

[thegrun]

78-82 degrees Fahrenheit, not Celsius. You should have a heater, even in warm climates it is likely to be needed in the winter. If the rock is coming from an established tank, as long as you keep it in water during transport, you should not have a cycle.

[rayn]

My tank runs 76-78 farenheight. Not celcius. Celsius would be like 26+- or something like that. A heater to me is a must to control temps. If you are in a high heat area where temps go high you may need a chiller as well.

Grun beat me

[maybeshewill]

Sorry, of course my mistake. Don't think the fish would take too kindly to 78 degree Celsius :o

[maybeshewill]

78-82 degrees Fahrenheit, not Celsius. You should have a heater, even in warm climates it is likely to be needed in the winter. If the rock is coming from an established tank, as long as you keep it in water during transport, you should not have a cycle.

Sorry, so if I get 45 pound of live rock taken from someone else's tank (been in there for 5 years) and keep it in RO water during 25 minute transport and put it straight into my tank, I won't have to cycle at all?

[Bowels]

From what I understand thats correct... the need to cycle comes from death on the live rock... like say something that was alive in or on the rock dies during transport... that that was once alive now is decaying in your tank... causing an ammonia spike.... and a need to cycle...but if you keep it in water stuff shouldn't die.

Sorry, so if I get 45 pound of live rock taken from someone else's tank (been in there for 5 years) and keep it in RO water during 25 minute transport and put it straight into my tank, I won't have to cycle at all?

[maybeshewill]

Right, that would be excellent. I guess it's still recommended to wait a couple of weeks to ensure there's no ammonia spike before adding livestock? I don't want to risk any poor fish!

[maybeshewill]

Thanks for the assistance so far guys!

I do have some more questions.

1. If I use cured rock and I have no cycle, is a clean up crew still needed? If so any recommendations for the 36" X 18" X 18" tank?

2. What sand should I use? I was recommended 2mm coral sand elsewhere, thoughts? What depth should I go with?

3. Should I use the same sand in the refugium? Again, how deep should this be?

Thanks so much for any further assistance guys it would be a HUGE help!

[sponger0]

If you going to fill up,

1. Dont use crushed coral. Youll be regretting it later.
2. Minimum 1 lbs sand per gallon and same for rock
3. Tune your equipment as if your going to have live stock. So like your pumps and heater and lights. 8 hrs max on lights. I say keep them on so if your going to have an algae bloom its gonna happen with regular light cycle or without so might as well get use to the daily light cycle.
4. Have a test kit ready.
5. And the most important rule of all....Hurry up and wait lol. You will learn what that means quickly if you dont already lol

Good luck

[maybeshewill]

Thanks for the tips! Any recommendations for the sand if you think the coral sand is no good? Any tips also for a clean up crew to help keep everything tidy? I live in Australia so I can't order the CUC from reefcleaners unfortunately.

Another of the big questions I have is, when initially filling up my tank, should I use natural salt water from my LFS? Or buy RO/DI water and add salt?

[sponger0]

Argonite sand is popular. Not sure what you have for online retailers or local stores or aquaculturalers you have there. But thats where I would check. Do you have any local reef clubs?

[rogermccray]

Sorry, so if I get 45 pound of live rock taken from someone else's tank (been in there for 5 years) and keep it in RO water during 25 minute transport and put it straight into my tank, I won't have to cycle at all?

Just curious, does this need to be RO saltwater or would just plain RO work?

[maybeshewill]

I think there is a local reef club but I'm not a member. Pretty sure there's a joining fee too.

[maybeshewill]

Just curious, does this need to be RO saltwater or would just plain RO work?

RO saltwater, sorry left out the salt part.

[sponger0]

I think there is a local reef club but I'm not a member. Pretty sure there's a joining fee too.

Well I would look into joining. It would be very beneficial. Ive saved lots of money going through my local club.

Have you found any online stores in australia?

[maybeshewill]

I will definitely look into the reef club, sounds like a good idea.

No I haven't actually found a good online store. I know a place for coral and equipment, but that's about it. I'll have to keep looking.

The main issue I'm having ATM is figuring out how to initially fill my tank. Do I just purchase RO/DI water from my LFS and purchase salt to mix with it? Or is natural salt water just as good?

[maybeshewill]

Anyone? :)

[Sk8r]

Medium grade aragonite sand: doesn't blow, doesn't collect crud. Best just get your own ro/di filter: you'll be paying for it twice if you have to buy it later. Natural salt water is good if collected far offshore.

Do consider if you like the sound of a tank if you are having it in your bedroom. It is a loud water-sound, and you cannot cut off the pump at night. Once that pump is going, it will go forever.
Run everything but your skimmer. That will help warm the tank and give you a chance to balance the day/night temperature. Plus a warm tank processes chemistry faster.
Just drop 4-5 flakes of fishfood in daily, and when it produces ammonia you know you're nearly there. Keep adding fish food and when 5 more days of adding the same amount cannot provoke ammonia, it is ready for snails.

[lcs]

I can't speak to the natural saltwater based on my own experience, but I've read here that there can be nasties. I would:

1) purchase the RO/DI (and very seriously consider getting your own system, they're not that much)

2)fill the tank about 3/4 up, add salt and mix with a strong powerhead or two, you can start the heating process whenever you'd like, but the salt will dissolve faster if the water is warmed up

3) check the salinity with a calibrated refractometer - use solution that is at 35ppt, not just RO water - and adjust if necessary

4) let the water stabilize for a day or two before adding the rock

5) add sand when you're satisfied with the 'scape

6) dump shrimp in and wait!

I second the aragonite and the 8 hour light cycle if you use lights at all. Your tank will cycle through all sorts of algae blooms in the first few months.

HTH!!

OK, Sk8r beat me by five minutes!! :)

[maybeshewill]

Thanks for the information guys!

So you still think I need to create a cycle for the tank even though I'm adding cured rock from a well established tank? Aragonite sand sounds good, I'll be sure to look for it at the LFS.

[rayn]

If you use 45 pounds of established rock are you adding any more? If you double that amount with dead or dyeing rock you will still cycle.

I never trust any rock or tank not to cycle. You think it is good and buy your first favorite fish to watch it suffer and possibly die. Couple weeks to make sure won't hurt.

Cleanup crew should consist of snail that will cover your sand and rock. Once you see no ammonia or nitrite then you should start to get algea blooms, then add the snails.

[maybeshewill]

No I won't be adding anymore, 45 pound is what was planned and I don't want an overly crowded tank. I was definitely going to leave it 1-2 weeks anyway to make sure there was no mini cycle. I really don't want to put any animals through pain.

So you think a few turbo snails will do the trick as far as cleaning goes?

Also, how long after cycling is it generally considered safe to add corals? I plan on starting with something like a hammer/frogspawn or toadstool. I'm using a 120W LED lighting fixture.

[rayn]

Stability is the key there. Once YOU do the tests and show your parameters are in check and where they should be, you should be okay. Don't trust the lfs to do it, know your own levels. If your cal, alk, or mag fluctuate wildly then corals won't thrive and grow. If your nitrates get high and out of control then they won't do well either.

[maybeshewill]

Right so basically as soon as levels are good I can begin adding corals (gradually, as to not stress the bioload), thanks! I'll be heading down to get my test kits with the water and sand tomorrow :)

[rayn]

As for the water, like others said, getting your own ro/di unit is best. If you are planning on buying water from the lfs how much is it? Possible to do distilled water in the gallon jugs and add your own salt? Might be slightly cheaper short term.

[maybeshewill]

I'm not exactly sure on the price yet at the LFS, but I do plan on getting an RO/DI machine in the near future which should serve me well for top ups, but I'm more focused on the initial filling of the tank ATM.

I've been told by the person I'm buying live rock from that he's been using natural salt water for 4 years and it has been great. If you guys think that's viable it might be a good way to start the tank, then soon when I get the RO/DO machine I can make my own top up water and add the salt myself. Good idea or no?

[rayn]

If you can get good clean natural sea water I think that would be awesome. Only issue I see there is the possibility of bringing in something you don't want. If not then it would be best to make your own. Remember, anything you can control you can fix. You test...you know your levels. You make your water...you know when a filter needs changed. If you always use the lfs you are trusting them to change their filters on time.

[maybeshewill]

Yeah that's a fair enough point. I'll buy some RO/DI water and salt, seems to be the safer option.

So I just put in the RO/DI water, put in the salt, put in the sand and then turn on the power heads?

Leave it a couple of days to ensure the salinity is ok, and if it is I can then add the live rock?

Thanks again for the assistance it really is appreciated.

[maybeshewill]

Is anyone able to recommend a starter test kit package? I do have a refractometer on the way so I have salinity covered.

[CarlitosReef]

I hear good things on the API Master reef kit, I am planning in getting it as well.

[maybeshewill]

Yeah I've seen that, but I noticed it doesn't measure nitrite or ammonia, so I was a little confused.

API Master Reef Kit measures:

Calcium, KH, Phosphate and Nitrate.

The API master saltwater kit measures:

High Range pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate.

[CarlitosReef]

Saltwater Master Test Kit Liquid Test Kits A complete kit for testing marine aquarium water. Tests water four ways to protect marine fish and invertebrates from dangerous water conditions. Kit includes tests for: High Range pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, plus four test tubes, holding tray and test tube rack. Fast, easy and accurate.

I meant the saltwater is a good kit. As for Calcium, KH and other things you could get something else

[maybeshewill]

Yeah it looks like the choice should be the saltwater kit, then buy a separate kit for calcium and kH.

[CarlitosReef]

That's what I would do, I know some good tanks owners that use API test kit. Basically come up with your own custom test kit to test anything you need to at the moment.

[maybeshewill]

Yeah kool. Any idea how long one of those saltwater kits are meant to last?

[CarlitosReef]

No Idea, maybe someone can chime in on that interesting question!

[maybeshewill]

Yeah, would hate to have to purchase one of those at $40 every couple of months, plus the other kits we need.

[CarlitosReef]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270645780245?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_1207wt_905

:dance:

[maybeshewill]

I'm in Australia, they are $45 here :( Everything here is a complete rip off.

[CarlitosReef]

:sad2: There got to be something for a better price keep looking. Also it takes good skills to find good deals on ebay. So check REAL good your ebay site.

[lcs]

So I just put in the RO/DI water, put in the salt, put in the sand and then turn on the power heads?No sand. Fill 3/4 with RO, add salt, and when the salinity and temp. have stabilized you can add the rock. If you don't have the salinity right, there's a chance you could kill a lot of what's on the rocks. Then add sand; you don't want the rocks resting on the sand; if you ever get a burrowing species (and you should, they're great!) you'll have a problem.

[maybeshewill]

Thanks mate! How long after the water and salt has been in there should I first test the temp and salinity to get a gauge on whether it's stable or not?

[maybeshewill]

Anyone? :)

[CarlitosReef]

Make sure you have one storage container to keep your RO water and another container to keep your RO mix with salt.

After you add your Mix RO a lot of attempts will be require to be checking if is stable or not maybe once a week. Someone else can chime in on that.

Mostly all set up take a different amount of time until they get stable some take less than a month others take more than 2 months.

[maybeshewill]

Thanks Carlitos. I can add my rock before that though right? How long should it generally take before I can add my rock? I'll be picking it up from someone 1.5 days after the water goes in and I don't want it sitting in a garbage drum in the garage for too long, I don't think anyone will appreciate the smell ! ;)

[CarlitosReef]

Well is the rock cure, dead, DIY what the status on the rock you picking up?

[rayn]

Water and sand with a good powerhead moving things around. Expect it to be cloudy. Salt should dissolve for the most part in about three hours, but I would wait atleast a day to test. When I mix mine for water changes it ages atleast three days before I use, unless a emergency. You may try some eggcrate, those little square lift difuser on fluorescent ceiling lights, on the bottom then rock. I did and love it.

API tests are good, but watch the date on the bottles. If you buy a kit they aren't always the same!? From what I have been told it goes lot(batch) number, month, year it was made and they are supposedly good for three years. , If and when you get into corals and needing to keep calcium, alkinity, and magnesium in check you could upgrade to elos or salifert. They cost more but are generally ore accurate. Also look into a good phosphate meter. The hanna phosphate checker is a good one and accurate.

[CarlitosReef]

I was looking at the red sea kits on calcium, ALK, mag are they good?

[rayn]

I compare them to API personally.
Here is my take and others will probably disagree. Get a kit and get used to it. Use one kit and keep your parameters in check with it. Not saying it doesn't hurt to double check with others, but wild readings from different test kits lead to hasty decisions that could really affect your tank stability. Choose a brand...API, red sea, elos whatever but till you have a good stable system stick with it, then move up in your kits.

[CarlitosReef]

I compare them to API personally.
Here is my take and others will probably disagree. Get a kit and get used to it. Use one kit and keep your parameters in check with it. Not saying it doesn't hurt to double check with others, but wild readings from different test kits lead to hasty decisions that could really affect your tank stability. Choose a brand...API, red sea, elos whatever but till you have a good stable system stick with it, then move up in your kits.

No disagreement here, I've heard the same advice.

[rayn]

I'm in Australia, they are $45 here :( Everything here is a complete rip off.

Actually that isn't all that bad. API master kits run from 35-45 depending on what lfs here.

[lcs]

but wild readings from different test kits lead to hasty decisions that could really affect your tank stabilityOy, ain't that the truth! I'm going through that right now with Mg. Very frustrating.

Anyway . . . you're welcome and good for you for asking for advice and actually listening! So many people don't and come to a bad end.

[maybeshewill]

Ok, so an update. I've added 1-2mm coral sand (the only substrate that any LFS here really carries besides marble) and also water to 3/4 of the tank (I can't cover the return plumbing yet as glue is drying).

The water is really murky, it kind of looks dirty. I can't see any sand in it, but I can see all the sand on the bottom. I did rinse the substrate before putting it in, but is it possible that I didn't rinse it enough? I know people say the water stays cloudy for a day or two, but I thought that was because of sand, and I can't see any sand at all besides on the bottom.

Anyone have any tips/tricks to combat this or is this all normal?

Thanks guys!

EDIT: I should also note the sump is not currently running because as I said the return plumbing still has glue drying.

[rayn]

If you have a hob filter that you can put on it temporarily that will help clear it, otherwise it just needs to settle.

[maybeshewill]

Nah I don't, I'll just have to leave it to settle down, in 12 hours the glue in the return plumbing should have dried so I'll be able to get the sump going.

I am a bit worried about the glue to hold the plumbing together, does anyone know if it's dangerous to the water, even if it's fully dried?

[rayn]

What type of glue?

[maybeshewill]

What type of glue?

It's called "PVC Pipe Cement". It's a green color and smells pretty nasty.

[rayn]

You should be good to go. I have started water up in as little as a hour after glueing pvc.

[maybeshewill]

Yeah it seems dry, although it says wait 24 hours on the bottle. It was just the fact it was green, smelt bad and says toxic on the bottle that freaks me out about having my water going through that piping and coming in contact with it lol.