Observing tanks at Rainforest Cafe

[Reefing Newbie]

So today, for a birthday lunch(birthday is on Monday actually) I went to the Rainforest Cafe. They have 5 large SW tanks, 2 being cylinder and 3 being rectangular. Anyways, I got to really observe tang behavior in a more appropriate environment than the lfs holding tanks. I noticed in the tank I sat by that they had 7 blue regal/hippo tangs(Dory), 5 Tennenti/Lieutenent Tangs, 3 Yellow Eye Kole Tangs, 1 Purple tang(not very healthy, looked like it had lateral line errosion), 7+ Rabbitfishes(couldn't keep track of who I counted lol), 1 blue or queen angelfish(couldn't quite tell as it was not fully grown), 5 butterfly fish(2 or three different species), and two bird wrasses. The tank was fun to watch with lots of movement. Interestingly enough, non of the tangs were full grown, but almost everyfish has nipped fins which made me sad. The clear ruler of the tank was one of the tennenti tangs, which was on the verge of going black, which made him a very beautiful fish. He assertted his dominence over the other tangs and the rabbitfish. The angel was the only fish that was dominant without showing it(everyone got out of its way and was nipped if they didn't). I saw quite a few scapels shown between tangs, especially when the dominant tennenti tang bumped into the purple tang. Both immediatly flared and darkened in color which was quite a site to see! You can guess who won that one, then swam away and did it to several other tangs. I did not notice as much active swimming as people say tangs do. The purple and kole tangs were always grazing on the fake corals and rocks. The blue tangs were swimming slowly in two groups to each side of the middle overflow(box was smack dab in the middle of the tank). I saw the bird wrasses swimming more than the tangs. I never would have stocked that same tank that way as it looked like maybe a 240 gallon tank, which was a shame for the fish in the long run. They had two other tanks of the same size, one had a sohal tang and a huge clown trigger. Didn't get to see very much of the third tank.

I went to the gift shop where one of the two cylinder tanks were. It had several 10" blue tags which their tails seemed to be short for their size, 1 naso tang that was an inch or two shorter than the blue tangs, a 12" or so sohal tang, a clown trigger, a few different groupers, a full grown fire clown(looked huge in its cave), and a small 3" tops humu humu rectangle trigger. Suprisingly the last fish listed was the most active of everyone! He was constantly swimming around the tank at a very good clip!

This thread was made simply to note of the irresponsibility of the cafe, and note my observations to guide some of the people contimplating the purchase of a trigger or tang.

[Ninong]

If you run a search on Rainforest Cafe, you will see that the overcrowding and obvious poor condition of their fish have been discussed in 125 threads over the past five or six years here on Reef Central.

Yes, pretty much every hobbyist who goes there notices the same thing. It's rather sad.

[Reefing Newbie]

Maybe some hobbyists should work at these places. It is much cheaper long run to stock properly. You get plenty of movement and beauty with a properly set up tank. The fish are also healthier when housed in such an aquarium I would imagine. Just for the owners to figure it out.

[Tracey2]

I was there recently too, later I received an email asking me to fill out a customer comment card, my comments to them were to please for the love of marine life stop overcrowding and provide proper care for their fish, I noted I would not be back due to their cruelty to marine life.

[Reefing Newbie]

That is good that you mentioned that! I hope they take that comment seriously. I had made a reservation and specifically asked to be seated next to an aquarium. I thought that it would be better than it was...

[dzfish17]

In all fairness it is not every restaurant...the one at the mgm in vegas looks great. All of the fish looked healthy and were very active.

[Reefing Newbie]

Wow! That is very good on that specific location's part! They may have a hobbyist maintaining and directing the tank affairs there. I would work at the closest one to me, but I am only 15(16 tomorrow!), and it is a 1 hour drive there. Besides, don't think it will pay as well as my summer job did at $10 an hour! That was starting off. Anyway, I think it would be a good thing if every rainforest cafe had their tanks set up as the one mentioned above does.

[tmulrney]

Yeah. Makes me ill to see patrons happily checking out the fish and enjoying them without understanding that they are watching living creatures being forced to tolerate unnatural conditions. Very sad.

[nixer]

yup they are pretty bad. bass pro and cabelas isnt much better either

[Reefing Newbie]

They can get a tank to look good without adding inappropriate additons. Very simple to do, just takes time. Or they could build the tank to a proper size for what they plan on having.

[GreshamH]

Wow! That is very good on that specific location's part! They may have a hobbyist maintaining and directing the tank affairs there. I would work at the closest one to me, but I am only 15(16 tomorrow!), and it is a 1 hour drive there. Besides, don't think it will pay as well as my summer job did at $10 an hour! That was starting off. Anyway, I think it would be a good thing if every rainforest cafe had their tanks set up as the one mentioned above does.

Having hobbyists work there is not the issue when you are talking about a Corporation. In fact a hobbyist does work at the Vegas one, a very skilled aquarist. She relocated from another location. What you want to do as a skilled aquarist/hobbyist and what the Corp wants you to do can be wildly different.

[nixer]

Having hobbyists work there is not the issue when you are talking about a Corporation. In fact a hobbyist does work at the Vegas one, a very skilled aquarist. She relocated from another location. What you want to do as a skilled aquarist/hobbyist and what the Corp wants you to do can be wildly different.

thats exactly what happens with petco and petsmarts all across the country

[GreshamH]

I figured someone would chime in with that :D

Its also what public aquariums go through in a way... having to get projects OK'd by multiple divisions sometimes is a futile task.

[Aqua Goddeess]

Landry's biologist discusses the maintenance of the corporations aquariums (http://www.tfhmagazine.com/saltwater-reef/feature-articles/maintaining-monster-tanks-inside-landrys-restaurant-aquariums.htm).

[Ooulophilia]

When you see restaurant/hotel tanks, you have to remember that these are set up as large QT tanks; hyposailnity, constant level of copper. These tanks are not set up for the long term health of the fish, they are set up for the enjoyment of patrons (please see the show Tanked).

Most of these places, and the rainforest cafe is no exception, figured out a long time ago that it is cheaper to constantly replace fish than set up a system that can keep them alive and thriving long term. I know, I used to provide fish for them - "Hey, it is the end of the month so you must need another 12 yellow tangs and 12 blue tangs because the last 24 died right died right?"

Frustrating for us, be we are a tiny fraction of the viewing populace.

[alton]

Landry's biologist discusses the maintenance of the corporations aquariums (http://www.tfhmagazine.com/saltwater-reef/feature-articles/maintaining-monster-tanks-inside-landrys-restaurant-aquariums.htm).

Thanks

[Aqua Goddeess]

When you see restaurant/hotel tanks, you have to remember that these are set up as large QT tanks; hyposailnity, constant level of copper. These tanks are not set up for the long term health of the fish, they are set up for the enjoyment of patrons (please see the show Tanked).

Most of these places, and the rainforest cafe is no exception, figured out a long time ago that it is cheaper to constantly replace fish than set up a system that can keep them alive and thriving long term. I know, I used to provide fish for them - "Hey, it is the end of the month so you must need another 12 yellow tangs and 12 blue tangs because the last 24 died right died right?"

Frustrating for us, be we are a tiny fraction of the viewing populace.

How long ago?

[Aqua Goddeess]

"Prappas is the Director of Biology for Landry’s Restaurants, Inc., the casual dining and entertainment company in charge of places such as the Rainforest Cafe and the Downtown Aquarium. Since he has so many animals under his care, Prappas constantly reminds himself and his staff that “ultimately, the mortality rate in captivity is 100 percent.” Any animal taken from the wild will not be returned to its native habitat and will therefore die while in human custody. He takes this responsibility very seriously and ensures that all the animals are well cared for."

[Sk8r]

I have corals I got in 2004 which have now reproduced into other tanks. I've raised clowns back in 1985 that have gone on to a happy and productive life as the parents themselves of hundreds of clowns probably extant to this day down in Oklahoma. We lose some. But we do not budget to lose fish. This hobby is on track to make the improvements that freshwater did, in terms of captive breeding. There was a day when Discus did not survive, when you were lucky to have an Aeneas catfish and a few zebra danios stay alive in your tank. We know more, we're learning more. That's where the hobby is: figuring how to reproduce corals, fish and inverts to supply the trade and to limit wild collection. We do fine with snails and bristleworms. We have people trying to breed the smaller and more sedate fishes. Corals, which 20 years ago wouldn't survive at all, are literally a snap. We're a long way from the 80's, with skimmers, natural filtration, supplementation, and attempts to duplicate lighting and other ocean conditions, including flow. Keeping a tank 'to scale' with the inhabitants is impractical for most situations; but in the case of the smallest fishes, it can be done. Oddly enough, these are the ones that are reproducing.

[Reefing Newbie]

I would like to know how much more expensive it is to keep a tank going for long term health as opposed to replaceing everything the next month? Some of the fish they buy such as the sohal tangs and purple tangs aren't all that cheap... Sohals most definantly go for upwards of $250 as a guess(basing off of what I have seen) and $299 at bluezooaquatics. The location I went to had maybe 4-5 sohals and replacing them every month might be an extra $1500 if they die every month... They do fish only from what I saw so they don't need the fancy lights(MH that shoot up your electric bill).

It would be really nice to start being able to mimic the ocean enough to breed the larger fish like tangs and triggers! From my understanding though you would need an extremely large tank with seperate ecosystems(reef/shore zone then the "open" ocean). At least we have gotten far enough to captive raise the blue hippo tang, but that still hampers the population. I think seaworld should add on and build a seperate Shamu show tank and load it with different tangs and try breeding them...

[Sk8r]

I wouldn't be surprised if some national/city/state aquariums do have reproduction from fishes ordinarily beyond our means to reproduce...but even for these huge tanks one problem is that our water circulation kills the eggs and hatch. If we could get a circulation system that could work on a kind of two-tank 'surge' and yet not suck the eggs into a filter, who knows? Maybe using gravity and a motive force to lift could create a no-kill surge. We already have a filterless filter, in live rock and sand.

[freetareef]

i went to the rain forest cafe for my bday. i was very disappointed to say the least.
if all these ignorant consumers are awed by the crappy folr tanks, imagine how much more awestruck they would be by coral display tanks...
"Mommy mommy... I want to sit next to the acan tank!!!"

[Aqua Goddeess]

Has anyone here eveer asked to meet with the curator if they are available. Each location has their own staff of aquarists so I'm sure you could ask them questions.

[WaffleWalffle22]

guys pleae dont be mean to rainforest cafe because they are experts and thye get the help they neeed for their fish. they know what they are doing mroe than most of you so stop and SHUT UPP PLEASE STOP ITS REAINFOREST

[bigreefnutt]

I know exactly what you mean. I run a maintenance company and I have taken over many tanks to where that the way it was setup to where it was easier to just replace the fish instead of keeping them in good health. It has been a challange at times to explain to the client its easier and cheeper to do it the right way instead of constintly replacing dead fish all the time

[chrisv]

What you may not consider here is how cheap the tangs are wholesale.


Looking at a wholesale list now: flame angel $19, snowflake moray $3.99.


I would like to know how much more expensive it is to keep a tank going for long term health as opposed to replaceing everything the next month? Some of the fish they buy such as the sohal tangs and purple tangs aren't all that cheap... Sohals most definantly go for upwards of $250 as a guess(basing off of what I have seen) and $299 at bluezooaquatics. The location I went to had maybe 4-5 sohals and replacing them every month might be an extra $1500 if they die every month... They do fish only from what I saw so they don't need the fancy lights(MH that shoot up your electric bill).

It would be really nice to start being able to mimic the ocean enough to breed the larger fish like tangs and triggers! From my understanding though you would need an extremely large tank with seperate ecosystems(reef/shore zone then the "open" ocean). At least we have gotten far enough to captive raise the blue hippo tang, but that still hampers the population. I think seaworld should add on and build a seperate Shamu show tank and load it with different tangs and try breeding them...

[toromp]

totally sucks for the fish :-/ such beautiful creatures

[Reefing Newbie]

I don't know I personally think that the tanks that are privatly owned by people in this hobby have better looking tanks than the cooprerate run fish only tanks. They don't even use rock, its the fake coral inserts(at least at the one I went to). If the coorporation was shown a budget of the way the tanks were run now vs. if they were run properly I bet they may see the money lost on something they should only have to replace every decade or two... Even clownfish can live for 15 years, so save the $20 every month and you would be amazed how much of a difference it will make over time. Its just like putting that money in a savings account.

[GreshamH]

I don't know I personally think that the tanks that are privatly owned by people in this hobby have better looking tanks than the cooprerate run fish only tanks. They don't even use rock, its the fake coral inserts(at least at the one I went to). If the coorporation was shown a budget of the way the tanks were run now vs. if they were run properly I bet they may see the money lost on something they should only have to replace every decade or two... Even clownfish can live for 15 years, so save the $20 every month and you would be amazed how much of a difference it will make over time. Its just like putting that money in a savings account.

My job takes me to all corners of the US and I get to visit a LOT of aquariums, public and private. The Downtown Aquarium in Denver, a CORP run aquarium, has some very nice tanks that rival most private ones I see.

Lest not forget Atlantis Marine World on Long Island. Its not a "public aquarium" but rather a private aquarium (read: corporate) and please show me any private aquarium that rivals their 20K g tank?

http://gallery.rl180reef.com/d/493-1/DSC_5821.jpg

Of course I can't find the really stunning photos using Google right now :(

[GreshamH]

Although Steve's 1,200g tank is STUNNING!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sncfi4hgnM0&feature=related

Awesome video, but it still doesn't give you the full scope of that impressive tank.

[Marco67]

Where's the like button for Greshs' last two posts ? ;)
FWIW thats an old pic of Joes tank ...so much more grown in now :beer:

[Reefing Newbie]

Well if you go to manhattan reefs club forum you will find someone that built a 20k gallon tank in their house. Personally I think they make it look small by having numerous naso tang species that get pretty dang big(2 footers). If the aquariums are true reefs in public aquariums, they can be gorgeous. I have only seen one at that was at the Minnesota Zoo. Wasn't that great fishwise though, just a bunch of chromis. If most of the aquariums were true reefs without the fake rock then they have a bigger capability of being stunning. I just haven't come across very many.

[GreshamH]

If you go to numerous forums you will find Bill's thread... but I bet you didn't know Bill started that thread here on RC years ago. That is an old build ;)

Funny you would choose that fish and not the Napoleon Wrasses Joe has in the AMW tank :lol:

@Marco... yah I just did a quick web search. I have some great shots myself but don't want to upload them just for this thread :D Joe can GROW coral, that is for sure!!!

[Reefing Newbie]

The only thing that I recongnized were the unicorn tangs lol. I had no idea he started that thread here, guess thats what happens when you haven't been here very long!