The Mantis Shrimp Forum Needs an ID Sub Forum!

[StephLionfish]

After seeing all the ID threads....Mods, if you are reading this... is there a reason we don't have one like the coral forums do? And any chance that one will be added?

So how about one more ID thread? There's a tiny deep forest green mantis at the LFS. It's a smasher, extremely skittish, and isn't a Wennerae. It doesn't have the spots that we use for ID'ing purposes...

I can try to get pix, but any idea on what it is from my description?

[nirvanaandtool]

That's actually a pretty good idea.

[DanInSD]

I don't agree. We don't get very much traffic on this forum to begin with. I think that ID threads are of general interest.

[StephLionfish]

I don't agree. We don't get very much traffic on this forum to begin with. I think that ID threads are of general interest.

We don't get as much as the Corals do, but we've been getting quite a bit here recently I think. I just think it would be a good idea..

I also have a mantis I need you guys to ID for me, if you noticed ;)

[asid61]

I agree with StephLionfish. There seems to be another asker every couple weeks. Maybe an "ask the expert" sort of thread? You post your pic and get a response.

[mndfreeze]

I really don't know if we get enough traffic to warrant a subforum, but perhaps an identification forum in general inverts might be handy.

Though we could probably get away with making a single sticky thread called "Need a Mantis ID'd? Post pics here for help!"

That would concentrate requests, past and current pics, etc.

[StephLionfish]

I really don't know if we get enough traffic to warrant a subforum, but perhaps an identification forum in general inverts might be handy.

Though we could probably get away with making a single sticky thread called "Need a Mantis ID'd? Post pics here for help!"

That would concentrate requests, past and current pics, etc.

But, see the problem with that is, is that it will be too full, and people won't read through it... So there'll be a million
"What is my mantis?"
< " Neogonodactylus Wennerae...">
" OK, Thanks!"
Instead of someone looking through it and saying, "Oh, that Wennie is a spitting image of my little green mantis!"

Just like that thread in the New To The Hobby forum or whatever, the one that says "PLEASE CHECK HERE before you buy your fish or whatever..." the one that has people asking about the fish they like. It's gotten so full, that even I didn't read through the whole thing... so there's probly a hundred "Perc. Clownfish--what do they require?"

Unless you are saying that we just keep on adding onto the sticky... then, I could see that being useful I guess... but not as good as an ID Sub Forum...
Heck, maybe if we fancied up the place, we'd getting more company in here!:beer:

[StephLionfish]

Wait, I think we get as much attention as the Shroom Forum does, and they have an ID Sub Forum?
Actually, right now we have almost twice as many views as they do...

[Gonodactylus]

I don't understand the need for such a forum. Who does the ID-ing?

Roy

[StephLionfish]

I don't understand the need for such a forum. Who does the ID-ing?

Roy

Anyone who sees the thread and knows what the mantis is?

And, I understand you made the List of them,--and thanks a ton for that--, but like, right now, I've looked through the whole thing and still don't know what the mantis at my LFS is...

[StephLionfish]

Anyways, what is this little fella?

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g339/Stephnp023/1316242602.jpg

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g339/Stephnp023/1316242604.jpg

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g339/Stephnp023/1316242606.jpg

[Gonodactylus]

So what do you think it is? From what I can see in the photos, there are only three possibilities.

Roy

[StephLionfish]

Honestly, I have no idea....maybe Neogonodactylus bredini?

I hope I didn't offend you somehow, Dr. Roy....I feel as though I'm getting the cold shoulder...

[usatennisfan]

It almost looks like it has the same color patterns as the one I just picked up.

[usatennisfan]

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z372/Usatennisfan88/2011-09-17_18-03-34_972.jpg

Hope that works...

[usatennisfan]

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z372/Usatennisfan88/2011-09-17_18-23-31_245.jpg

White meral spot, smasher, LR from Florida and Fiji. My guess is N wennerae.

[lionbacker54]

looks like g.smithii to me

[Gonodactylus]

The key to identifying this animal is the shape of the telson. The intermediate teeth are appressed to the submedian teeth. There are only a handful of gonodactylids that have this trait. The only on in the Indo-Pacific is Gonodactylellus espinosus. There are four Neogonodactylus with this pattern. In the Pacific, N. zacae has this trait, but it has a pink meral spot. In the Atlantic there are two; N. bredini and N. wennerae. These two species are almost identical in appearence and there is no way you could separate them based on a photograph. They live in different habitats. N. bredini is found typically in the low intertidal; N. wennerae subtidally. There are also range differences. However, there is considerable overlap, so you would not want to make a call based on location. Honestly, the only way to be 100% sure is using molecular data.

Roy

[mndfreeze]

In regards to ID'ing, I think more pictures would be useful for the hobbyist to help people ID easier. Dr. Caldwell's site has an amazing amount of data on it to assist, but not a ton of pictures for people not clued in to the specifics that make this species easy to ID.

I know I for one had to spend some extra time learning the various names of bodyparts, got confused more then a few times, then working with pictures of species started to notice some of the differences. Of course, I'm also pretty badly colorblind but as long as I have a really good pic to compare to and I look back and forth from mantis to ID'd picture I can match them up.

Maybe someone should just start a proper ID thread, request it be sticked, then stock it full of the species we know of and as many pics of each one as possible. Sort of a quick reference guide.

Or, beg Dr. Caldwell to add more pics! :D

[StephLionfish]

Wait, so I'm confused...it's either Wennerae or Bredini? But I didn't see the spots that the Wennies have...:confused:

[Gonodactylus]

As I said above, it is nearly impossible to tell the difference between N. wennerae and N. bredini from photos. I even have difficulty telling them apart when I have them in hand. Given that both species are color polymorphic and can be brown, green, sandy white, or a mottled combination of any of the above, color is not very useful. The only color characteristic that is sometimes informative is the brick orange that some deep water N. wennerae exhibit, but as you know, put them in bright broad spectrum light and they will turn green and look just like shallow water N. bredini.

As for the meral spot, it is visible and typical of what I would expect for either species.

Roy

[othercents]

The original picture I would have said N. Wennerae, but like Roy says that is just a generalization for both the N. Bredini and N. Wennerae based on locally available mantis stock. IE. If you got the mantis from a Florida company there is about 100% probability that it is an N. Wennerae.

Your mantis is definitely different pattern of color I have seen on any other N. Wennerae, however the meral spot doesn't lie and everything else (IE. smashers & legs) are typical colors for a N. Wennerae.

[Gonodactylus]

In fact, the color pattern shown is the most common one that we see for N. wennerae except for those coming from below 10 m. It is typical for N. wennerae coming from grass beds.

"If you got the mantis from a Florida company there is about 100% probability that it is an N. wennerae."

Not so! Many suppliers in Florida collect Neogonodactylus in shallow water and many of those animals are N. bredini. I think the misconception here is that Tampa Bay supplies a lot of animals that come from their live rock operation in the Gulf and these animals are general from deeper water and are usually N. wennerae. HOWEVER, not all of the animals from the LR are N. wennerae. Also, Tampa Bax sometimes collects stomatopods from shallow water in the Keys and many of those animals are N. bredini.

Roy