Flow

[tbo]

Ok, I need help from you veteran reefers. I am planning a reef tank and cannot decide on how best to achieve good flow. It will be a 72"(long)x30"(wide)x27"(tall) Lee Mar starfire glass tank with LED lighting, separate sump/refugiums, dual overflows, ASM G4 skimmer, and no chiller).

My initial preference was to use a closed loop system with 1 or 2 intakes and 3 or 4 returns (supplemented with the 2 returns in the overflow that is not driven by the closed loop, but the motors for the sump/refugium). However, many people/posts have done a good job of scaring me to death about leaks/crack/catastrophes of closed loop systems and I have been trying to figure out the next best alternative to closed loop. My goals are to see as little equipment as possible inside the tank, and preferably nothing outside the tank (at least not on the sides). Not having to lose sleep over leaks would also be nice, as a tank this size would not be cool to have to tear down or repair. I also do not want a noisy set up or anything that generates a lot of heat or kills the electric bill.

I have checked out the MP40/MP60s which seem pretty cool, but I would definitely not mount them on the sides of my tank which will be viewable on 3 sides. And although the Tunze/Koralia powerheads do not have cords on the outside like the Vortechs, they are a little intrusive looking to me on the inside of the tank especially if mounted on the side walls (no offense to anyone that has them).

Now that you know my situation/preferences, my questions are:

1) Are the closed loop concerns overblown or is this a likely problem to encounter given that there would be up to 10 holes (2 in each overflow + 1 or 2 intakes + 3 or 4 outlets). Are the proposed number of inlets/returns sufficient or still not enough flow (I know it will partially depend on the motors used to run it), or is it too risky to put that many holes in the tank?

2) Would using 2 or 3 Vortech MP40s mounted to the BACK of the tank facing forward be a viable option to add a good level of flow or do they need to be mounted on the sides of the tank to work efficiently? Are these units loud? Reliable?

3) What other options are available that would possibly meet my objectives and what are the trade-offs?

Any advice from those of you who know this stuff from experience would be very much appreciated!

[pmrossetti]

vote for number 2.
i hate closed loops. too many areas too fail.

[jimsplace]

I also would go with #2, vortech's will give you tremendous flow. There is some noise with them but I don't find it too objectionable. There are always trade offs and the flow from these pumps and their versatility make them the way to go in my book.

[tbo]

Like how much noise from the Vortechs? I am putting the tank in my main living room directly behind the seating area, so I would not want too much noise since this is where we watch TV. Would 2 or 3 units be too much noise?

I wonder if there is a way to muffle them somehow, like an little enclosure or something?

[tkeracer619]

They need cooling so an inclosure isn't recommended. They do make some noise but its not really a whole lot.

They should be on the side but you can run them on the back. If the tank is bare bottom this will work fine but if it has sand it will blow it around a lot. Most closed loop pumps that pump enough water to make a difference will produce some noise as well. As far as watching tv with them in the room as long as you don't have them at 100% (which you can't when on the back wall) they will be fine. I would find a local reefer and go check them out for yourself.

Here is a sound test I put together. This is 4 mp40 pumps. The tank is not THAT loud. The mic is very sensitive (listen to me breathing..)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNYgEL1QEdc

[jimsplace]

Mine are right behind ours chairs in the lr, I don't notice them at all, but some people are more sensitive to sounds than others. They just arent that loud.

[username in use]

If you don't want to see anything, go with a closed loop. If planned well and put together right there aren't any more risks than just running a tank normally. The vortechs would work well as you would have them, but the closed loop could be totally hidden which is what you said you wanted. You could also add an ocean motions 4 way or 8 way and make the flow randomized that way.

[tbo]

Thanks for the responses.

If using an OM, would all returns go through the unit so you would only use 1 intake? I was thinking 2 intakes for redundancy (in case 1 got clogged or something and also just to add more flow), but it seems like that would not work with a splitting device unless the intakes were brought together before going into the OM. Would that make sense or is there a 2-way OM or similar unit that could be used on each side?

[username in use]

Two intakes are a good idea to minimize the suction, but you would have them join together right before the pump, then into the OM, and then that would feed your 4 or 8 outlets.

[tbo]

I talked to a guy today who suggested using "dry box" sections in 2 larger corner overflows that would house the motors (back side) of the MP40s. Imagine a traditional hexagon angled overflow box divided down the middle inside, with the outside section (closest to the ends of the tank) being the wet side with the drain/return holes and the inside section being the dry side for housing the motor.

This way the MPs would be angled from a back corner to the opposite side front corner, kind of long ways diagonally, but still not like placing them on the sides. I know tkeracer619 said that enclosures are not recommended due to heat, but would they stay a little cooler in this type if there was not a top (or if it had holes for air flow) due to the water cooling the plastic/glass which would be enclosing the section? Would the diagonal flow across the tank be a problem since it would be basically flowing directly into whatever was growing in its path?

The MPs would not really be getting the outside 12-18" of the tank, so I could maybe angle the overflow returns to the outside to get these areas good.

What do you all think?

[5pacey]

Diagonal is fine, the boxes are fine too as long as they are large enough and/or have some cooling of their own, like a fan blowing from below the dry side up to for cooling. I too plan to probably enclose my MP40 dry side in something but knowing that they do get hot (I have played w/an MP10 and boy did that thing heat up!) I plan to put a small fan below to blow the hot air around the dry side up.

Spacey :thumbsup:

[tbo]

Where would you mount the fan? Perhaps drilling a hole in the bottom of the box to drop the cord through to the stand for power and also to use for a vent to direct air up into?

[110galreef]

The CLS is NO more prone to leak than your tank joints, the overlfow, etc.....
Do it right and you are fine.

Everyone is on the VORTECH kick right now. Lots of Tunze users too....Which I agree both are sweet.
Great flow, undertow(vortech), no extra cords in the tank (Sans Tunze), low power consumption, etc...

I like you want to see virtually nothing in the tank aside from my reef. I went CLS. Love them! No pump housing to clean and maintain like the vortechs....

Also you only need one intake, just make it sized appropriately, and Tee it in the tank so there are 2 or 3 intakes so wont suck critters in!. Also 6 returns plus your 2 return from your sump will be plenty. Get yourself a pump like the Dart, Super Dart Gold or hammerhead or hammerhead Gold to get enuf flow on that size tank. Also look into an Oceans Motions 4 way.

Like this:
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd71/steveh1234/Tank/100_2675.jpg

I will add 2 more returns in the back of the tank from the CLS and also upgrade my pump to the Hammerhead GOLD.

The CLS cost me ~ $10/mo electricity opposed to ~$4 (3 MP40's). So really not a huge cost savings.

Also another thing to remember is routing the plumbing. Drawback for the CLS. But really pretty simple and just put true union BV's so you can easily remove the pump or OM 4 way for service. I did mine from the bottom for easy access to my tank from the rear. Mae sure you have room undewr or behind for plumbing.
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd71/steveh1234/Tank/100_2671.jpg

Also My sump and BIG skimmer fit fine underneath. I can access from the side to swap out the pump or OM 4 way if needed for service. Or I could do a drain the sump & pull it out of the way too. Would be a 15% WC then!
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd71/steveh1234/Tank/IMAG0021.jpg


Old CLS build on my 110g. Had to be on the back, very low profile, so went with 2 intakes "Tee'd" together. 1.5" intake was to big of an elbow. Spray bar on the bottom and the 4 returns. Regular DART pump.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd71/steveh1234/Tank/DSC03092.jpg

[tbo]

OK. I think I have narrowed down what I am going to do. 72L"x30"Wx24"T, closed loop with 1 intake (I like the teeing it idea), 4 returns spaced evenly apart left to right across the middle of the tank, single overflow with 1 drain and 1 return inside (I will split the return inside the overflow box so there is a return coming out of the left and right of the overflow box. I also think I will Y-split each of the 4 closed loop return so there are 8 lines going different directions. This setup will be 7 total holes in the tank.

I will also use an Oceans Motion 4-way and was also thinking of adding 2 MP10's on the far left and right of the back wall facing forward to get the ends and maybe create an additional random/variation aspect to the flow in the tank (along with the OM cycle (1/3, 2/4). Not sure if the MP10's would be overkill or a good addition?

What size of an intake drain for the CL do you think to push 4 returns (split to 8)?

[tbo]

Scratch the MP10 idea. The EcoTech website says they can only be used for up to a maximum 0.375 inch thick glass (mine will be 0.5 inch).

[110galreef]

OK. I think I have narrowed down what I am going to do. 72L"x30"Wx24"T, closed loop with 1 intake (I like the teeing it idea), 4 returns spaced evenly apart left to right across the middle of the tank, single overflow with 1 drain and 1 return inside (I will split the return inside the overflow box so there is a return coming out of the left and right of the overflow box. I also think I will Y-split each of the 4 closed loop return so there are 8 lines going different directions. This setup will be 7 total holes in the tank.

I will also use an Oceans Motion 4-way and was also thinking of adding 2 MP10's on the far left and right of the back wall facing forward to get the ends and maybe create an additional random/variation aspect to the flow in the tank (along with the OM cycle (1/3, 2/4). Not sure if the MP10's would be overkill or a good addition?

What size of an intake drain for the CL do you think to push 4 returns (split to 8)?

CLS intake. 1.5" should sufice fine.
Overflow, better to go with 2 drains opposed to one. even out draining and also eliminate clog & overflow. Dont stress about the number of holes. You definitly dont have a lot on thta size tank.

Also what pump are you getting? You will very likely want/need more flow. Get the tank running as is and see if you want/need more flow. I would go with 2 MP40's as budget allows. The MP10/MP 20 won't do much on that 72" long tank.

I too have considered adding 2 MP40's to my tank on the back wall or just upgrading to the bigger pump for my CLS.....

Not sure::headwalls:
2 more MP 40's: extra $750, low energy & neat undertow, randomness. 2 more things to clean & maintain. Plus if i don't like I can easily sell & then upgrade CLS.
Bigger pump: extra $150, plus plumbing work for an evening. alittle more elctic use compared to the MP 40's. But no extra maintenence and a bit cheaper to install.

Another thing to consider...... You may want to bring your returns up over the top to the front of the tank and blow back to the overflows.

Just a thought. May help spread the flow around.
MORE TO THINK ABOUT AND CONTEMPLATE!:spin2: :headwally:

[110galreef]

Also if you can try, to design your aqua scape and then place your CLS returns/intake to fit(hide) as much as you can, yet still access if needed.
Here are some pics to give you an idea of the layout & thought process for me.

Frontal shot. Really can't see aything but the front 2 returns. Just part of life. I wanted to have some good flow back into the rockwork. But I have GSP covering them now pretty much! Old pic tho
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd71/steveh1234/FTSJune.jpg

Side shot. You can see how the intake & one side return is positioned. This one is a Y retrurn. The one side comes out & up, while the other one shots out to the front thru the rock. You can see the cave where the water exits on the pic above. Also in this pic you can see how i have my returns coming in at the top front. They are very tight to the top and with the canopy, you really never see them!
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd71/steveh1234/IMAG0058.jpg

Another angle so you can see the other rear return & how it shots across the whole tank thru the middle. This one is also a Y and the other side goes thru the rock to the far side acrylic & front acylic.
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd71/steveh1234/2C77BF0B-1741985.jpg


Hope this all helps & makes sense. Bad quality pics off phone. Colors do look better

[tbo]

Thanks 110. Your tank/layout looks really good. I do like the way the rockwork is open in the middle and the natural look to the way it is stacked and laid out. I want to do a very similar layout, with kind of a diagonal canyon through the middle and some island rockwork around the front CL returns so as to not see them. The rears will also be somewhat hidden by the rockwork, but kind of aimed to the interior angles from each side.

How come you put your CL pump on a small stand? I do not know what kind of pump I will use, but am looking at the Blueline pumps. No real reason other than I heard they are pretty good, quiet, and low maintenance.

[110galreef]

The pump is on a small shelf for 2 reasons:
1, minimize plumbing and restrictions.
2, the pumps (reeflo) have a drain plug, that you can drain the lines to swap out the pump or OM. Last CLS i had the pump on the bottom of the stand and about all i could fit under it was a plate! DOH! Now i can fit a small tupperware bowl or something to catch more water than a plate! haha

As for pumps. The bluelines are good, but too small for this task.

Get either a
Reeflo Dart 3600 GPH like 110w
Reeflo Dart Gold 4300 GPH like 170w..mine runs at 165w. checked via killa watt
Reeflow Hammerhead 5800 GPH like 350w
Reeflo Hammerhead Gold 5500 GPH like 280w

If this is just a softy/lps mixed reef, a DART gold will suffice. If this more of and LPS/SPS get atleast the Hammerhead line.

Dolphin Amp Master are also very good pumps. But not as effecient.

Again I have the Dart gold, and I need more flow now a the tank is getting stocked plus SPS Dominate tank with LPS & some zoos & softies. So either I upgrade to The Hammerhead Gold or add some vortech's on the back!

[110galreef]

Another thing to remember:

When vortech or tunze or any powerhead rates flow, it is based on pulling as well as pushing. So a vortech "that get 3400GPH" is in essence pulling 1700gph & pushing 1700 gph for a total "WATER FLOW" of 3400 GPH.

While a pump ONLY rates what it pushes. So a DART GOLD pushing 4300 GPH has to suck the same 4300 GPH thus is actually moving 8600GPH! Pumps are sold based on what they can "pump" not circulate.

All the discussions never take this fact into account!

So if you see my 250G tank with ONLY 4300 GPH flow, MOST would be amazed!...thats it??! Granted I need to step up to the Hammerhead which will get me almost 50% more flow at the given head! That will move aton. Yet again my tank will only have 5500 GPH flow. What??? an successful SPS tank with only 21x's turnover! YUP! Only like 16x's right now with the return pump included.

[tbo]

Great info. I would not have thought about draining the pump. Thanks.

Do the Reeflows need to be oiled or any special maintenance? Are they quiet?

[110galreef]

Reeflo pumps are realtively quiet. For the volume of water they move, they are probably the quietest. If ultra silent is your goal. you will probably need 2-3 smaller pumps. But really between, return pump, overflow, skimmer, lights/fans, etc. You will not notice this any more than anything else.

The pump too are maintenece free. One thing to keep in mind is to make sure that the intake is high above the sand. also if you add sand or mix up sand it may behove you to turn off the pump.

Sand is what kills the seals as well as the OM 4way. Keep sand out and you will be trouble free for years. Seals & the OM drum are all easily servicable and replaced thought if need be.